In a strange confluence of timing, I am writing this blog on my actual birthday, and the occasion made me think about the kinds of presents I’m hoping for. A Big Finish third Doctor Who audio adventure, an In Search Of boxed set hosted by the inimitable Leonard Nimoy, a collected Promethea series graphic novel by Alan Moore, and the last season of Justified. Which pretty much suggests, no, confirms! that I am a nerd.
But I wasn’t always a nerd. Oh, I was into the same sorts of things (Ultraman, Space Giants, Prince Planet, Rocket Robin Hood, Batman, and Spiderman– the one with the catchy theme song. Wild, Wild West, Star Trek, The Avengers, and the very first episodes of Doctor Who in the US all b&w and snowy on our old set) nerds traditionally liked in grade school, certainly. But before I was ten, we didn’t have a name in my area for people with our particular, non-athletic, interests. It wasn’t until Happy Days started running that “nerd” entered our vocabulary.
At least in my neck of the Northeast Philly woods.
That’s a metaphor or an idiom; we had to walk a bit to get to any woods. But my neck of the twin houses with thin strips of lawn between them just doesn’t sound pithy.
Of course, puberty hit and so did Junior High School, so I hid out in the library and read Heinlein and Tolkien and Moorcock. I watched The Prisoner and got even more stubborn and resistant to authority. I devoured comic books – strictly Marvel at the time – and discovered John Buscema, Gene Colan, Barry Windsor Smith, and Frazetta, and wrote and drew comics and fantasy and science fiction imagery at every opportunity. I watched hours and hours of old b&w movies.
Talked my grandfather into taking me to the 1975 Marvel Comics Convention at the Hotel Commodore and Stan Lee yelled at me because I blinded him with a flash bulb. How could he have seen it through those dark glasses of his?
Although I had a few Avalon Hill historical wargames with chits for your forces and fold-out cardboard maps, there was no one I knew who was interested. I played chess with my dad. Beat him. We never played again.
Don’t be sad, I would soon have all the challenges, in a good way, that a teenager could desire. The door to fellow nerds was about to open and my life was never to be the same.
Central High School. America’s first magnet school before there were magnet schools. 99.9% college bound. We didn’t have a principal, we had a President, and every graduate over a certain GPA received not just a HS diploma but a Bachelor of Arts degree.
I tell people this and it sounds like I’m either bragging or lying, but no, for us, it was just a mixing pot for what were supposed to be the best and brightest teens in Philly. Star athletes, South Philly mobster wannabes, certified geniuses, and we all quoted Monty Python, and SNL, and Star Wars. My friend Michael Thau (Goggle his philosophy books) translated and performed an entire scene from the Marx Brothers in French class. Our nerdiest impulses were looked at as eccentricities.
And there was an entire Strategy & Tactics club dedicated to war gaming where I, and a whole room full of other guys, could play Squad Leader, and Wooden Ships and Iron Men, and then.
And then.
D&D.
Three years of playing at least once a week.
That and the finest art major program in the city set the twin courses of my life. Got to art school, was dissuaded from creating fantasy illustrations: “not serious, not cool”, but the nerd would emerge in film classes and animation. In making a chain mail vest and a silver wolf’s head ring in jewelry class.
My undergraduate years were bracketed by Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Indy comics like Cerebus and ElfQuest mixed in with my ongoing Marvel collection. I may have been at Fat Jack’s Comic Crypt at the same times as M. Night Shyamalan. (Another nerd for sure). Tom Baker as Doctor Who enabled a conversation that started a relationship that turned into my first marriage.
I studied film and film theory. Cahiers du Cinema anybody? Took my normal (er) friends to art school film festivals. It took Johnny I. two Long Islands Ice Teas before he could formulate words after the Pink Flamingos and Polyester double-feature.
Played D&D every week with a regular gaming group, at least 75% of the time with me DMing. Dressed them up in belts and furs and junk, took them down the woods, and filmed a post-apocalyptic fable inspired by Harlan Ellison’s writings.
I only wore light blue button down shirts and dark blue slacks. Purple sneakers or cowboy boots. Army coat and a cowboy hat or a derby (both black).
So by now, dear reader, you might be aware of a couple things. One, I’m a nerd as the title suggests. Two, I’m an old (er) nerd. Note the complete absence of anything computer related so far. Three, I seem to be doing a biography here, with no end in sight.
“What’s your point, Thomas?!” You might say.
Well, a hint to my point might be found in the factoid that the quote one line above actually was said to me by Harlan Ellison.
While I had to fight to get the review board to let me do a graphic novel based on my ongoing D&D world as my Master’s Thesis, and I had to fight the budget committee at Channel 29 in Philly to bring in the first desk top publishing graphics and animation system, and I had to convince the Illustration department head to let me add sequential art to the illustration class I was teaching, the nerd world I loved was soon to be more and more the world I lived and worked in all the time.
With White Wolf, I was creating gaming art. We all talked the same language. Wes and Josh taught me about Manga and Anime and Street Fighter and Army of Darkness. Marathon was played on the office computers. I hired artists I studied for years like Michael Wm. Kaluta and Berni Wrightson and Mike Mignola and came within days of hiring an ailing Frank Frazetta. I had dinners with Harlan Ellison and Michael Moorcock.
I’m not name-dropping here for status, these were my idols, my inspirations. In. My. World.
A world that got fuller and busier as I and a host of incredibly talented creators poured our hearts and souls, our sweat and blood, our spinal cords and sanity, into the books and fiction and cards and board games and ads and other projects WW put out. It was an amazing time.
The other, bigger, world was changing too. I sometimes think it was Tim Burton’s Batman that did it. Coming only a few years after Miller’s brilliant Dark Knight rejuvenated Batman for us nerds, his Batman brought that same milieu to the masses. It successfully buried the camp aesthetic of the TV Batman, which was honestly the Batman the majority were familiar with. OTOH maybe it was this damn internet that changed things.
Whatever the reason, here I am, a nerd with his ongoing nerd interests, in a world that is actively waiting to view new superhero shows and movies. Where most people have seen at least one of the Lord of the Rings movies. Where the new Star Wars film is the most financially successful film ever to fill up a theatre.
Wow. Things sure have changed from my 53 year perspective.
It is a great time to be a nerd.
It is a great time to create games and art and celebrate my nerd interests.
I’m just getting started!
(In all my excitement to get out this retrospective about how being a nerd is actually pretty cool, I forgot to mention that the illustration at the top is for the Wall of Darkness spell from Scarred Lands. Which has a Kickstarter going into its last week and going strong – see below).
BLURBS!
KICKSTARTER!
In the heady days of the D20 explosion, White Wolf created our own fantasy setting featuring a world devastated by the brutal war between gods and ancient titans. The Scarred Lands will return as this Kickstarter for the new edition of Scarred Lands Players Guide was funded last week! Hosted on KS by our partner, Nocturnal Media, this Kickstarter is not only for a new edition but for a print run to get Pathfinder AND 5E editions into stores!
Here’s the link! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1861515217/scarred-landsfrpg-setting-in-both-5e-and-pathfinder
Starting at the end of this week, we will be presenting the Pugmire kickstarter! Pledge to enable us to create a beautiful full color, 180+ page, 7″ x 10″ core rulebook that we can also get into game stores. Before we start the KS, we’re pre-releasing the KS video featuring a brief audio drama of our adventuring party on the quest of an artifact of Mankind, as well as Eddy Webb and Prince Murray Pug explaining just what we are doing with this Kickstarter campaign. It is a treat, so Be Good Dogs, and check it out: https://youtu.be/DeggUirLIiU
ON SALE!
Gauntlet of Spiragos is a 5E D&D adventure for the Scarred Lands and is now available free as a PDF. Just like the Pathfinder version of Gauntlet of Spiragos, this one will eventually have a physical copy Print on Demand version as well. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/171523/Gauntlet-of-Spiragos-5E-OGL-adventure
Condition Card PDFs for both Chronicles of Darkness http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/171574/Chronicles-of-Darkness-Condition-Numina-and-Dread-Power-Cards and Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/171573/Werewolf-the-Forsaken-2nd-Edition-Condition-Cards are now up dealt up at DTRPG, with PoD cards soon to come!
The Tales From the Age of Sorrows Exalted 3rd fiction anthology is now on sale at DTRPG in PDF/ePub/Mobi and PoD versions! http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145501/Exalted-Tales-From-the-Age-of-Sorrows
The Demon Storyteller Guide has dropped its cover and is on sale as an Advance PDF on DTRPG! http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/170165/Demon-Storytellers-Guide
M20 How Do You DO That? is now available at DTRPG in PDF and PoD versions! http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/162241/M20-How-Do-You-DO-That
The Pugmire Pamphlet we had available at Gen Con is now ready for PDF download. Read about the world of Pugmire from the enthusiastic and optimistic pen of Princess Yosha Pug, as well as notes from the gruff and worldly hunter Pan Daschund: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/153518/Pugmire-Gen-Con-Brochure
There are also six Pugmire posters available as free PDFs or $.99 physical posters, suitable for framing:
- Spike Mutt: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150845/Spike-Mutt-Pugmire-Poster-6
- Pan Dachshund: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150844/Pan-Dachshund-Pugmire-Poster-5
- Jack Rat-Terrier: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150944/Jack-RatTerrier-Pugmire-Poster-4
- Sgt. Leo Bulldog: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150843/Sgt-Leo-Bulldog-Pugmire-Poster-3
- Princess Yosha Pug: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/149750/Princess-Yosha-Pug-Pugmire-Poster-2
- Sister Picassa Collie: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/148516/Sister-Picassa-Collie-Pugmire-Poster-1
Start spreading the Code of Man!
CONVENTIONS!
Gen Con 2016 planning has started.
And now, the new project status updates!
First Draft (The first phase of a project that is about the work being done by writers, not dev prep)
- M20 Book of Secrets (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Exalted 3rd Novel by Matt Forbeck (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- CtL anthology (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- Ring of Spiragos (Scarred Lands)
- Ex Backer Charms (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- DA Tome of Secrets (Vampire 20th Dark Ages)
Redlines
- Mummy Fiction Anthology (Mummy: the Curse)
- Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anniversary Edition
- V20 Ready Made Characters (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Cavaliers of Mars
- Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition
- Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes (Beast: the Primordial)
- Dagger of Spiragos (Scarred Lands)
- EX3 Quickstart (Exalted 3rd Edition)
Second Draft
- Arms of the Chosen (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- The Realm (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Dragon-Blooded (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Shattered Dreams in-book stretch goals (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Signs of Sorcery (Mage: the Awakening Second Edition)
Development
- StoryPath System Rules (Base rules set for Scion and the Trinity Continuum)
- W20 Changing Ways (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- VtM Lore of the Bloodlines (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- W20 Shattered Dreams (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Beast Ready Made Characters (Beast: the Primordial)
- Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition, featuring the Huntsmen Chronicle (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- WtA Kinfolk (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Beckett’s Jyhad Diary (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
Editing
- W20 Pentex Employee Indoctrination Handbook (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Dark Eras Companion (Chronicles of Darkness Dark Eras)
- WtF The Pack (Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition)
- CofD Hurt Locker (Chronicles of Darkness)
Post-Editing Development:
- V20 Ghouls (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Secrets of the Covenants (Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition)
- Scarred Lands Player’s Guide: Ghelspad (Scarred Lands 2nd Edition)
Indexing:
- Chronicles of Darkness Core Book (Chronicles of Darkness)
- Beast: the Primordial Core Book (Beast: the Primordial)
ART DIRECTION FROM MIRTHFUL MIKE:
In Art Direction
- V20 Ghouls – Awaiting text.
- W20 Shattered Dreams – Going over notes from Stew and figuring out buy.
- Promethean: the Created Second – Ron art is all in…. probably in the layout queue post Awakening 2.
- Scarred Lands PG – Still wrangling.
- Dark Eras Companion – Getting roster together and starting on artnotes this week.
- The Pack – Contracted.
- Secrets of the Covenants – Notes going out to Mark and Sam.
- Necroplis Rio – Getting artist for cover. I’ll deal with the rest of the buy post Dark Eras Companion AD.
In Layout
- Guide to the Black Hand – Working on it.
- Mage: the Awakening Second – Awaiting approved text. In the queue after Dark Eras.
- Pugmire Early Access – Waiting on the last of the art to come in.
- Beast Anthology – Awaiting approved text.
- Dark Eras – Art on expansions continues. Sketches coming in from a couple of artists already.
- Lore of the Clans Prestige Edition – Cover and End Pages.
Proofing
- Ex 3 core book – From RichT: Maria has returned her corrected PDF layout to me just this afternoon, and I am going to review it and pass it on to the devs. Now, working on getting an index for it.
- Truth Beyond Paradox – Off for approvals at Paradox.
- Beast Screen – Off for approvals at Paradox.
At Press
- M20 – Deluxes printing (Screen is finished and awaiting book).
- Demon STG – Awaiting errata doc.
- Dreams of Avarice – Awaiting errata doc.
- Gauntlet of Spiragos 5e – PDF available for download.
- Forsaken 2 Condition Cards – Available for download. Prepping PoD.
- Chronicles of Darkness Cards – Available for download. Prepping PoD.
Special- projects on hold in the art and production area until an external factor is resolved
- Wraith 20 – Can’t go further until art notes come in, still being developed by Rich Dansky.
- Pentex Employee Indoctrination Manual – Some added and amended text needs to come in.
TODAY’S REASON TO DRINK: I’m still standin’, better than I ever did!
Comments
66 responses to “53 Years a Nerd. [Monday Meeting Notes]”
Out of curiosity, what does Indexing actually mean when a project goes into that stage? Is it simply putting together the index and table of contents, or does it include making notes on where certain bits of lore and information are for future projects. You guys at Onyx Path are doing great, Richt, and can’t wait for more W20 and CofD!
We’re just concerned with the best working index we can make at this stage. Thanks!
I really thought Mage was going to get approval this week. Guess I need to write another chapter of my Harry Potter crossover
It’s done with the text approval and on to layout now. Just not being laid out yet.
Yay! Thanks Rich! Dark Eras, Mage and Promethean all look to be coming in quick succession. We are about to get super spoiled/start throwing cash at the computer screen.
We are pushing them through as soon as we can while making sure they maintain the quality the projects, and you, deserve! Lots of goodness there-
Wait, why do we have to wait on Dark Eras if it doesn’t even have all of the art in yet?
Mage is YEARS LATE already, PLEASE don’t push it back even more just because Dark Eras got some stretch goals.
Mirthful Mike was already laying out DE with holes for the art when we got the text back for M2, he is not going to drop work he is in the middle of to jump on Mage. Layout doesn’t work like that.
At the moment, it reads “Awaiting text approval”, while also somehow being next in the layout queue. I was slightly puzzled by this, and had taken it as some sort of friendly needling from the layout guy. I like your answer better. 🙂
There might be a bit of that there too, 🙂
I noticed the Alpha for Scion: Origins is off the list. Does this mean the alpha is already out of development? If so, I am surprised at the speed this occurred. What does this mean, if anything, for writing the primary material?
Neall got the Alpha Slice out for MidWinter and as far as I know he is making sure it is good to share with folks soon. He might be along here in a bit to expand on that.
I’m trying to polish it up and tasking some extra wordcount. The aim is to have it nice and shiny in a month or so, for folks to take a look at the Storypath System and start toying around with the sample characters.
I don’t mean to sound pushy, but what is going on with Mage:tAw 2e? It seemed like it was almost ready for release, and then the CofD announcement happened, and now it seems to be slipping further and further back. How many months does it take to change “Worlds of Darkness” to “Chronicles of Darkness”? Is it undergoing more extensive revision?
I want you guys to take your time and make it the best it can be, but I’d love to hear more about what’s going on. As far as I can tell it’s been radio silence on M:tAw for a while now. I had started putting ideas together for a chronicle since it seemed like it was going to release any day now, but now I feel like we may be waiting for several more weeks (months?).
It went in for text approvals, now it’ll move to layout. Since it still needed layout before that, you might have been underestimating how long that would take.
Thanks for the response Rich, but if I’m honest, it doesn’t fill me with much hope. Barring any other metric, the only thing I can do is compare it to other books. Guide to the Black Hand has apparently been in layout for about 3-4 months now. If I assume Mage 2e will take at least that long, (and it hasn’t started yet, and it presumably has a larger page count and more complex layout) then it’s obvious I need to ditch my idea for a Mage Chronicle and just play something else. I hate to do that, but I can’t keep saying “Any day now” for the next six months.
OK. It’s obvious that you are excited to get rolling with your new Chronicle. That’s cool. I understand and appreciate that. The book is going to take as long as it needs to take – we didn’t want to have to figure out a new approval process with the new White Wolf guys, or do a renaming pass after we thought the text was done, but there you go. Stuff happens and it affects who can work on what when. Because of those outside changes, we have a ton of projects just getting to these same stages that we’re getting done.
That video for Pugmire has me more excited than I was before!
I know you guys are planning to launch the Kickstarter later in the week, but am I able to start sharing the video already, to drum up some interest among my online circles?
Please do! Thanks!
Does the Ex3 update you’re reviewing consist only of the changes to the text, or have all the art tweaks also been completed and incorporated?
Everything we noted and have planned to fix, so yes, the text and all.
As a South Jersey son of Southwest Philly natives, reading references to Channel 29 and the like is a real treat.
Working at 29 was the job White Wolf stole me away from. 🙂 My 2nd wife was an engineer there when we met. The idea of having the weekly department meeting that has evolved through the years to the Monday Meeting Notes blog started there with my phenomenal boss – she started it and now here we are. So, for me, it was a pretty good place.
So many good things coming this year on Onyx Path… While people keep asking “How soon?” to evey book being written, I keep asking myself how can you guys keep up with that so many challenging projects going on at the same time haha.
Happy birthday Richt. Live long and keep rocking!
Thanks! And yes, we’re pretty thrilled by the amazing books we’ll be getting out to everyone this year.
A belated Happy Birthday to you, Rich. Thanks for sharing your story; I’d love to have half that much nerd cred by the time my turn for 53 rolls around. 🙂
I dunno, life happens and if you are working on creating things it seems like that opens a lot of doors.
Happy Birthday, Rich! Hope you had a excellent one, you deserve it with all the hard work you put into Onyx Path and making great games!
Thanks!
Happy birthday! Here’s to nerds!
Thanks, and hear, hear! We seem to have inherited the earth!
Happy birthday!
Thanks!
Happy birthday, Rich! I just celebrated my birthday back on the 21st. Glad to know I’m in good company as far as having a January birthday. 🙂
Awesome story, by the way. It sounds like you’ve gotten to meet the people and have the experiences that I’d like to some day. For now, I’ll have to content myself with backing KS projects as the extent of my “RPG creator” credentials (though I’m hoping that my up-coming forays into Wizards’ Dungeon Masters’ Guild changes that if only a little).
Thanks! As far as I can tell, just keep doing it is the key. Do the best stuff you can, and do more.
I love those Monday Blog Posts. Just out of curiosity: will there ever be an open content competition for more than just those 12 Days of Onyx cards. I know that lot’s of People who run Campagins for WoD /CofD (in particular: Vampire) have made lots and lots of own antagonists, Cities, Plots and even Clans, Bloodlines, (sub-)Covenenants and more. I’d love to see those Fan Things legitimately published or just presented in an “we like that” manner.
Also: will there be an Update to Devotions for 2nd Edition Vampire. Those are the singlemost thing that translates the worst into Vampire 2nd Edition just because of the Discipline Reworks and Changes to the Experience System. I’d just love to have an Table containing the Updated Costs and Prerequisitions.
Greetings
Marc
That’s entirely possible, we certainly had a blast with the 12 Days of Onyx contest and it seemed a lot of our community did too. I’ll ask Rose about Devotions-
Thanks for the answer. Oh and. Happy birthday (altohugh way too late)
Happy birthday
Thanks!
Happy Birthday, RichT!
Question: is there a chance for backers to read the draft for C20 at some point in the future?.
Thanks! Hoping to get more excerpts out to backers in Updates as the text gets finished, but a lot of that depends on Black Hat Matt and whether he can take the time to get that together. He has a lot to juggle. Backers will, of course, get a chance to comment once the backer PDF has been created, like we’ve been doing for a while.
Definitely you’ll see excerpts, but the book is in redlines right now, which means it’s very much in flux. I don’t want to put up full text when the book is in that state, especially not now that we’re adding some content due to stretch goals.
Lots of CofD books in Art Direction! That’s fucking awesome. 🙂
Not many on First Draft and the like, but perhaps when the first batch is done there might be a focus on new stuff.
Oh, there will be. There will be…
I’m happy even with just this tease, thanks. 🙂
Oh and, before I forget, happy birthday!
Thanks!
So just that I’m clear, after the indexing is completed the next phase would be off the printer?
I’m really excited for my physical copies of Beast and CofD so I’m just trying to prep myself on what to expect in the process.
(I also understand that just because its off to press doesn’t mean the physical books would start shipping two weeks later.)
Ideally, yes, I’d like us to drop in the Index and then put out the final PDF and get the PoD files done up and for sale, and if we’re talking one of our KS’d books, get the traditionally printed files to the printer. As we shake out our new approval process, some books might need to go to WWP for approval before the index, and some after.
Happy Birthday, Rich!!
Looking forward to almost every project you guys have coming out this year. My gaming group loves the WoD in all its forms. My wallet on the other hand is a little less excited.
Hum.. seem have dropped the “t”
So Happy birthday Richt!
Thanks! You should make a character for your wallet to play, so it can get an idea of how much fun it is paying for.
Happy birthday Grandpa nerd. Thank you for all your contributions to geekdom.
Not a grandpa yet, you whipper-snapper! Get off my lawn!
Happy b-day, Rich. Keep geeking it up. It’s what keeps us coming back for more.
All the work you and the OPP crew have done is phenomenal.
I hope one day there is a convention that will celebrate the legacy OPP has kept alive and expanded on, and continues to do so many years in the future.
will there be a play test doc or even better an almost final version of the Pugmire rules for the KS?
See above for the status of “Pugmire Early Access”.
Happy Birthday!
S’all.
Exalted three is moving at quite a slow pace. The books that were in second draft months ago are still there. The core book edits move a bit every week but it has been three months and the final book isn’t ready.
At this rate we won’t see dragon blooded this year. Is there any possibility of some changes being made to allow your organization to pick up the pace? Is there anything that can be done? I like the third edition rules and my backer’s pdf is nice. I don’t want to see the authors replaced. But if that’s the case, are we stuck with the rate of progress that we’ve seen so far?
EX3 is a huge undertaking. Every time the team thinks they have gotten through working on it, there is more to do. Once there is absolutely nothing from that that requires them to drop everything else, I think you’ll see quicker progress. Thanks!
I just got a chance to take a look at this; happy belated birthday and thanks for all the great work all of you do.
Thanks twice!
Happy belated… birthday… by two days. Hm. :/
Quick questions if I may, Rich.
After discovering Hunter: The Reckoning, I’m wondering if we’re going to have to wait until 2019 for a 20th anniversary edition? Or if we’ll even get one at all?
The future is always in flux. Certainly, there is logic in saying that it really wouldn’t be, by the terms of an anniversary, the 20th for HtR until 2019.
I choose to take your mysterious reply in a positive light.
Hunter 20th anniversary confirmed for 2015!
… Wait a minute…
*Not serious, just a joke. Darned tone neutral text. Sorry if that sounded the wrong way.