Well, not literally fighting, but it was such a busy week with so many things happening!
Multiple KS messages and PDFs and Exalted 3rd Edition‘s backer PDF all going out the door, coordinating the delivery of the Deluxe V20 Dark Ages books and screens to the shipper (if you are a backer you are going to go nuts over how gorgeous this Deluxe is!), and then attending Illux Con Thursday thru Saturday!
And we started the Deluxe W20 Shattered Dreams KS (see below). That’s a full-page piece of properly chaotic battlefield art from one of the Wars of Rage depicted in the book, above.
And this week looks just as crazy, OK maybe a little less, but certainly there’s a lot happening this last dark slide into Halloween.
Speaking of Halloween, I hope you are all enjoying the Month of Nightmares daily doses of darkness we’ve been blogging where our creators are talking a bit about the projects they’ve done for Onyx. One of the reasons we decided to do this was to show the range of things we are working on.
Another was to highlight October over on DriveThruRPG and connect up with their Halloween sales over there. From today until November 1st, we’ve got the Mummy: the Curse core, the Mage Translation Guide, Darkening Sky for Dark Ages, and all the PDFs for the Demon: the Fallen, Hunter: the Reckoning, and Orpheus lines all on sale. This sale also sees the return of DTRPG’s Trick or Treat Jack O’Lanterns scattered throughout their site. Click on one to get one or the other. We’ve contributed some treats to the mix and look out for the October 31st, Halloween, blog post for an additional special treat for all of you to cap off the month!
In other matters, here is your monthly dose of “What the heck is Onyx Path?” pontification from yours truly, interviewed by the insightful Robert Beasley for our friends at Gamerati: http://gamerati.com/interview-richard-thomas-onyx-path-publishing/ What a fine figure of a man I am. Or at least something like a Stark of Winterfell in that photo, I’m told.
Illux Con, which is a major and important convention for genre illustrators was essentially down the road in Allentown, PA last week, so I stopped in to look at all the amazing art. I wanted to get new contacts for us for illustrators, but also to enjoy chatting with fellow artists. I finally got a chance to meet renowned artist Rick Berry and was introduced to him by Maria Cabardo as he is working on the final art for the EX3 PDF/PoD cover. Maria also got me into a conversation with Julie Bell, the legendary Boris Vallejo’s wife and co-creator, and a legend in her own right.
One of our industry’s legends, Liz Danforth, was a delight to hang out with, as was classic Magic artist and all-around good guy Jeff Menges, and we commiserated over many things as well as the way some projects can take so much longer than planned, but are worth it in the end. Liz was just coming off of two and a half years working on the Deluxe Tunnels and Trolls, a Kickstarted version of one of the classic RPGs to come out after D&D.
For those of you who have followed our stuff over the years, I chatted with Mr. William O’Connor and the Steve Prescott over new possibilities for working with us, as well as White Wolf/CCP alumnae Priscilla Kim who is rocketing forward as an illustrator. You’ll see her illustrations in the upcoming Mage: the Awakening 2nd Edition and I’m sure more gorgeous work is to come.
The best part, for me, besides fans buying me Captains and Cokes, was having dinner with Drew Tucker. I have art directed Drew for over 20 years but we had never met until last week, and he was as gracious and funny as he had always been over the phone. One of my favorite parts of starting Onyx Path has been the ability to work again with these amazing artists who have grown so much as visual creators since the “early days”. They used to snail mail me their sketches, is what I’m saying, although when Drew discovered sending sketches over fax machines was possible, I would find some pretty freaky faxes waiting for me in the mornings.
Came out of the con with about a dozen new artists’ web site addy’s for Mirthful Mike to check out, so with the old friends we bring in the new as well. And so it goes.
BLURBS!
KICKSTARTER!
The Deluxe W20 Shattered Dreams Kickstarter went live on Thursday, and the response has been great for this very special supplement detailing the multiple eras of the Wars of Rage as well as how to use the War in a modern Chronicle.
We’re over 85% of the way to our funding goal!
For this W20 Kickstarter we’ve added Achievements to our usual mix of Rewards and Stretch Goals, with the idea that you can participate to unlock some rewards that aren’t part of the fund raising per se. So, come pledge and send us pics of you howling at the moon or holding your pet rat(kin)!
PROMOTION!
The LAST WEEK! for our special blogs every day this month to celebrate October as the Month of Nightmares. Look for more snippets from various projects and notes from the developers on why they bits are their favorites and what went into them, as well as special sales. These will happen all October leading up to Halloween – because you know that’s our favorite holiday!
ON SALE!
Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition PDF & Standard and Premium PoD physical book editions are NOW AVAILABLE on DTRPG! http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/149562/Mage-the-Ascension-20th-Anniversary-Edition
Vampire 20th Anniversary Edition: The Dark Ages is NOW available in PDF and PoD versions at DriveThruRPG.com! This massive full color tome is part of the V20 line but does not require V20 to play and enjoy.
The Pugmire Pamphlet we had available at Gen Con is now ready for PDF download. Read about the world of Pugmire from the enthusiastic and optimistic pen of Princess Yosha Pug, as well as notes from the gruff and worldly hunter Pan Daschund: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/153518/Pugmire-Gen-Con-Brochure
There are also six Pugmire posters available as free PDFs or $.99 physical posters, suitable for framing:
- Spike Mutt: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150845/Spike-Mutt-Pugmire-Poster-6
- Pan Dachshund: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150844/Pan-Dachshund-Pugmire-Poster-5
- Jack Rat-Terrier: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150944/Jack-RatTerrier-Pugmire-Poster-4
- Sgt. Leo Bulldog: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150843/Sgt-Leo-Bulldog-Pugmire-Poster-3
- Princess Yosha Pug: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/149750/Princess-Yosha-Pug-Pugmire-Poster-2
- Sister Picassa Collie: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/148516/Sister-Picassa-Collie-Pugmire-Poster-1
Start spreading the Code of Man!
CONVENTIONS!
We’re one of the Contributing Sponsors at Midwinter Con this year this January in Milwaukee! RichT, Fast Eddy Webb, and Newlywed Neall Raemonn Price will be there at our booth as well as running demo games of Scion and Pugmire. We’re still working out panel concepts with the MidWinter gang, but expect at least one session where we ask for your feedback for Vampire 4th Edition. In the meantime, check out the show here: http://www.midwintergamingconvention.com/
And now, the new project status updates!
First Draft (The first phase of a project that is about the work being done by writers, not dev prep)
- M20 Book of Secrets (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Exalted 3rd Novel by Matt Forbeck (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- CtL anthology (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition
- Cavaliers of Mars
- Signs of Sorcery (Mage: the Awakening Second Edition)
- Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes (Beast: the Primordial)
Redlines
- Mummy Fiction Anthology (Mummy: the Curse)
- Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anniversary Edition
- Beckett’s Jyhad Diary (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition, featuring the Huntsmen Chronicle (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)- In Open Development
- WtA Kinfolk (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- V20 Ready Made Characters (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Beast Fiction Anthology (Beast: the Primordial)
Second Draft
- Arms of the Chosen (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- The Realm (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Dragon-Blooded (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Beast Ready Made Characters (Beast: the Primordial)
- Dark Eras Companion (nWod Dark Eras)
- WtF The Pack (Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition)
Development
- StoryPath System Rules (Base rules set for Scion and the Trinity Continuum)
- Scarred Lands Player’s Guide: Ghelspad (Scarred Lands 2nd Edition)
- W20 Changing Ways (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- nWoD Hurt Locker (World of Darkness 2nd Edition)
- VtM Lore of the Bloodlines (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
Editing
- V20 Ghouls (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- V20 Black Hand: Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- W20 Shattered Dreams (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Promethean: the Created 2nd Edition, featuring the Firestorm Chronicle (Promethean: the Created)
- W20 Pentex Employee Indoctrination Handbook (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Dark Eras Expansions (nWod Dark Eras)
- Secrets of the Covenants (Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition)
- M20 Anthology (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
Post-Editing Development:
- Mage: the Awakening 2nd Edition, featuring the Fallen World Chronicle (Mage: the Awakening)
- Pugmire Early Access
- Cursed Necropolis: Rio (Mummy: the Curse)
ART DIRECTION FROM MIRTHFUL MIKE:
In Art Direction
- V20 Ghouls – Awaiting text.
- W20 Shattered Dreams – KS underway.
- Mage: the Awakening Second – Art in progress.
- Promethean: the Created Second – Sketches coming in… slowly but surely.
- Scarred Lands PG – contracting.
- Dark Eras – Sorting through the artnotes and figuring out the art buy and if the previous chapters need additional artwork.
In Layout
- Dreams of Avarice – working.
- Demon STG – Starting layout sometime this week.
- Guide to the Black Hand – Starting layout this week.
- NWoD 2 – Working on Prologue and corrections.
- NWoD 2 Cards – Starting once I get NWoD 2 in proofing.
Proofing
- M20 How Do You Do That ?!? – Errata continues.
- Ex 3 Anthology – Awaiting updated text file.
- V20 Lore of the Clans – Errata continues.
- Beast: The Primordial – Releasing this week to backers.
- Ex 3 core book – From RichT: Backer PDF out, errata being compiled from the “Contact Me” link next to my picture on the KS page, and only from that link. If you want us to pay attention to any fixes needed, you simply have to post that way: Twitter, FB, the KS comments, we just can’t collate all of that. Lots of commentary everywhere, and special thanks to all of the folks who have already sent us errata! Although, please read the Updates so you know that we already know about the text under Fog Shark and the like so you don’t need to tell us about the things I already mentioned in that Update. SPECIAL SPECIAL THANKS to all of you who took the time to write in and tell us that this was a beautiful book! That means so much to us, particularly since we have noted that you folks, for the first time we’ve ever done a book, are writing in numbers that outpace the negative comments we’ve received. That and you are just amazingly supportive!
At Press
- V20DA – At shipper, awaiting screens, then shipping soon to backers.
- M20 – Interior proof signed off on, awaiting cover proofs.
Special- projects on hold in the art and production area until an external factor is resolved
- Dark Eras – Expanded text from the KS has to get through the dev stages above.
- Wraith 20 – Can’t go further until art notes come in, still being developed by Rich Dansky.
- Pentex Employee Indoctrination Manual – Some added and amended text needs to come in.
TODAY’S REASON TO DRINK: Happy 50th sweetie!
Comments
87 responses to “Everybody Was Fighting! [Monday Meeting Notes]”
Beast! Rio! Dark Eras!
Man, there’s so much good in this update! Now if we can just nudge Demon’s STG and Promethean forwards a bit, I’ll be really happy!
Unofficially, Promethean should be out of editing by Monday. Michelle’s on it, but it’s a big book and she got delayed doing some development work on the Dark Eras Companion.
I want Promethean so badly. The first edition was so close to perfection, and it was well-written and a very fun game that was too under the radar.
I’m really liking 2nd Ed, and I hope other folks do, too. I’m looking forward to getting back to our ongoing game once our current Dresden Files story wraps up.
Matt, you are awesome! Thanks for letting us know!
Two things:
First, I want to add my voice to the praise for Ex3. It’s been a long time coming, and now I have the beautiful PDF in my hands!
Second, two KS questions: Is Changeling20 the next KS? Are there future Ex3 Kickstarters Planned for the nearish future (i.e. are any of the current in-progress books going to get a KS)?
Thanks! Possibly and possibly. Best I can pin that down right now, sorry.
That’s about as much answer as I could expect. I’m excited anyway!
Exalted is a really great book. If only I could stop changing my mind about what I want to do with it. So many stories to tell. It’d be pretty nice if I could find a Storyteller, too.
On a side note, have you sent out the links for the Exalted PDFs add-on. I pitched in for the Caste books and I didn’t receive a link for them. It’s not an urgent matter, but I’d like to make sure I didn’t miss an e-mail somewhere in there.
Looking forward to bingeing on Beast, though hopefully not for as many days as I did with Exalted. My eyes were starting to cross towards the end.
Send me a message using the Contact Me link on the KS page and I’ll look into it.
Is the Mage Translation Guide compatible with the M20 edition? For that matter are any of the Translation Guides compatible with their associated 20th anniversary books (I’m especially interested in the Werewolf lines)?
If it’s compatible, it’s by accident. We wrote it before M20 was a thing, for Ascension Revised edition and Awakening first edition. I haven’t read M20 yet, so don’t know how much Phil changed in Ascension’s mechanics, but it would give you somewhere to start at least.
Oh, geez, I didn’t even think about that. So, think we’ll see a 20th Anniversary to Second Edition Translation book, eh? ;D
I cannot believe it! First we get Exalted 3rd edition, and will soon get Beast barely a week later. What an embarrassment of riches, this is better than Christmas.
We should be able to get a few more things out as Dec approaches!
Yay, Beast, Dark Eras, Secrets of the Covenants and Rio are coming closer!
All these conventions I can’t make it to them. I hope someday you guys’ll swing by Brazil (or that we’ll afford to fly you to one of our cons).
I’d love to. I’ve only ever heard good things about Brazilian conventions. It’s obvious that we have a fantastic and dedicated fan community there.
Yes we have. Showing this strong fanbase to you gentlemen at OPP is part of why we’re doing the NWoD Day on the 31st \o/
*cries for Ex 3* Can’t wait to read it when the book comes!!!!!!! Also anything for Ex 3 Anthology???
EX3 Anthol almost fixed. Very soon now.
YEAH!!!!!!!!! ^^
No doubt Rich, Ex3 is by far one of the prettiest books in my collection, judging by everything inside. I can’t wait to see what it’s going to look like with the actual cover!
Thanks so much!
Super happy the response to Exalted is positive! You guys deserve some praise after all that work.
I’m going to order it the day it comes on sale on RTRPG.
Coolness! Thanks!
It seems a little disingenuous to seemingly breeze past the large negative outcry about the Exalted 3rd art, Rich. There are many people, spread from rpg.net and elsewhere, who were extremely disappointed in the artwork and layout of the book, considering it is being released 2 years late.
I for one, and I know there are others, will not be supporting any further Exalted Kickstarters in future, which I’m genuinely sad about, but for the first time, Onyx Path has disappointed me.
I don’t think choosing not to jump into a discussion of a process that is still ongoing is disingenuous, particularly since I have already sent out a backer Update addressing just what we are doing now. What is it you would have liked me to say beyond that?
The page numbers of each of the art pieces being redone (backers aren’t just unhappy with the 40 cakes piece and the copyright breaking image that included PC game images), and an explanation as to why such a high percentage of the art is of a lesser quality than those pieces shared with us during the campaign and afterwards – those pieces are the best in the book, when they should be the standard.
Also, would you care to state whether you think you lived up to the campaign statements that this would be one of the most beautiful RPGs ever?
We’re only this vocal, and this disappointed, because we love Exalted, and don’t think a fair bit of the art, or layout of the current PDF, does the game justice.
Thank you.
So this is why I didn’t get into the whole thing, because ultimately art is subjective. And anyone who doesn’t like that answer is going to think it’s a cop out.
And with that in mind, I can only say that we have had a bigger number of people contact us to say that this is the most beautiful RPG they’ve ever had than we have ever had contact us before.
You are correct, art is subjective. But I think you and I know that there is art in the PDF which is not up to the standard many people expected of a 2 year delayed Exalted 3, especially after the hype that yourself and the writers built up about the game being one of the best looking RPGs ever.
Do you think that perhaps making those sorts of assurances were preemptive and, perhaps, misguided? Because a lot of people seem to have relied upon those statements for their expectations, and the art and look of the book (not its rules or written content, which are great) hasn’t lived up to those expectations.
Also, and I mean this with the utmost respect Rich, but you know people are going to say this: how do we know that this ‘majority’ of people have gotten in contact with you privately, when we have no means of confirming whether or not that is accurate? Statistically, people are vastly more likely to make the effort to make a negative comment about a product they have paid for, than they are to make a positive one.
I have obviously been informed as to how some people had higher expectations. Again, I point out that we have enough evidence that other backers are feeling we met or exceeded their expectations. Those who are upset want everything from a few pieces changed to violent revenge against us. In that environment, we’re going to do just what I’ve already talked about, and we’ll fix the errata, and then we’ll see.
As for whether we actually have had the positive feedback I’ve been going on about? Whatever. The only reason I even approved your comment to begin with is because those backers did exactly what you are saying, they wrote in with positive acclaim in numbers we’ve never seen before. I wanted their side to be heard amidst the din.
Oh whew! I’d seen some, uh… less than raving reviews of EX3 over on the KS site, and I desperately hoped those were not indicative of all responses from the community. I’m glad others love it as I do.
To be completely blunt about it, I don’t think anyone reasonable will be able to find anything of value in the midst of the vitriolic comments on the KS site. EDIT: To be clear here, it is not that there are not plenty of good comments being put there by dedicated members of the Exalted community, but that it is nigh impossible to find them because of the vitriolic comments made by other people that cover them up and whose sheer volume of posting drowns out the valuable comments. END EDIT. But the dynamic there and some other places that drowns out, attacks, and humiliates other posters who are excited and into the project is why I pointed out the unexpectedly high number of posts we’ve received via non-public forum messaging that love the new edition, text and art. If all you see are the loudest and nastiest posts, then you might indeed feel like that opinion represents the majority, but it does not. If you want to talk about the good stuff, but are immediately dog-piled by the haters, then you might very well choose never to post again. That’s why we tightened up our moderation on our forums here. Not to “silence the truth”, but to allow posters who aren’t the loudest, most argumentative, or aggressive, to actually feel like they will be heard and not be attacked.
Obviously, this isn’t just a problem with EX3 or just our forums. Just look into some of the research on why Twitter is declining.
I think it’s a little unfair to disregard the entire community on your kickstarter discussion threads and say there’s nothing of value there. After all they did pledge money to the project with the assumption that even if you don’t like what you read you’ll still at least view it and maybe take some of it into consideration.
The largest blow back I’ve seen from the community is over some of the art pieces and I agree that for the time this project has taken and the additional art budget I expected some of the most mind blowing amazing art out of an OPP/White Wolf book, but there were pieces that were far below what I hoped for. The poor pieces of art really did detract from the feel of the book, you have these gorgeous water color pages and then a poor piece of art displayed on it breaking the feel and flow of the book. Thankfully you’ve already made a post addressing the poor art and stated that you’re working to fix the issue and that goes a long way.
From what I can tell the blow back is so strong on this is because for the majority of the community this is our first look at things. For those that didn’t check out the leak and for the radio silence out of the development process there’s going to be a lot of knee jerking. It feels like we’ve been kept in the dark for 2 years so the folks who pledged money and expected the highest quality all around of any OPP kickstarter are a little burned by the treatment they feel they’ve received. And that’s a part too, I may be wrong, but I think this is probably the longest project you’ve kickstarted. Things have really tightened up since this one happened but it’s been a long time since this was officially successful in it’s kickstarted and so the bar is incredibly high. The longer folks wait the more they expect out of the project.
I think the layout and background art in Ex 3 is fantastic, obviously there was a hiccup or two like the extra blank pages and the fog shark. But those are minor issues that are being fixed and don’t detract from the book overall. Even though the system feels tighter and cleaner and frankly it looks easier to run and play, but that will be determined once I get my group together to give it a shot in the next couple weeks. The book is incredibly pretty and will look great on my shelf next to my complete Ex2 collection beneath the 20th Anniversary books I own.
I love OPP/White Wolf games, and I accept that I more often post about issues than things I like, but I also don’t want to be discounted/ignored simply based on which avenue I use to provide feedback.
I don’t disregard our entire backer community, my point is that I can’t get to all of them because of the volume of posts seemingly solely created to hurl invective by a loud minority of our backers. I certainly want to hear from you, but do you really think it is fair to expect me to “man up” or “stop being so sensitive” or accept the accusations and insults because “its my job”? Sorry, man, but some of your fellow backers are way over the line and they create an environment that no creator should be asked to withstand. As for a first look, in terms of the art and the direction that was going, or the page layout, backers certainly did get previews, so I’m not sure that’s the main issue.
The previewed art was gorgeous. All pieces were fantastic. The issue we take is with the other art, the pieces that are actually filling the book. It’s difficult for us bakers to hear that we shouldn’t take issue with the general art because we were shown a few cherry-picked pieces.
I’m sorry people are being bitter and spiteful. I know they shouldn’t. But I think all of us want to make this book the best it could ever be, and right now it’s far off, and it seems the only solution offered for now is to lower our expectations.
Very glad you liked those pieces. Were they the last pieces you liked? Because there are plenty in the EX3 PDF up to those standards. And the thing is, even though you and I agree that the preview pieces were excellent, those pieces were also ripped apart online.
Who from Onyx Path suggested lowering your expectations? I’m not going into details now, but I did say in the Update that art was being reworked. We are listening.
Edit: Moved this from the wrong reply.
I agree some of the posts do cross a line. The fear I have is by saying that you believe there to be nothing of value in the comments it means you will also not look at comments on any forthcoming kickstarters.
I’m also not saying “man up” or “stop being so sensitive”. Once you stop being sensitive to the statements you stop listening to the feedback and just bull through with the mindset of “I’m right you’re wrong moving on”. But by having a process where feedback is requested and then stopping due to the vitriol being spewed by a vocal group of the community it’s a lot like throwing out a whole batch of cookies just because a couple got burned.
The Art previews showed us a certain style of art and the directions seemed to take previous editions and expand upon them keeping the very recognizable Exalted art style. P. 272 is a great example of what I expect for instantly recognizable art style. P. 153 and 158 don’t seem to fit the direction the art was previewed to be going and I’m happy you said you guys are working on fixing some of the art and I hope at least 153 is on the chopping block. There is some amazing art in here though! Even with the set backs and the criticisms there are some great pieces that weren’t previewed like pages 276, 435, 473 (awesome art for Death of Obsidian Butterflies), 546 the Lunar is awesome along with his tell, and 631 that exigent! There’s awesome art in here and there are some stinkers, but I’m glad you’re working to fix the stinkers. I hope more of the artifacts we see are like that scythe on 631 and Volcano Cutter.
Robert, as I pointed out to another poster, and have edited my original to reflect: my meaning was not that there aren’t posts of value there, but that I can not find them in the midst of the invective. And no, it isn’t like a batch of cookies. It’s like creative human beings having to allow a crowd to abuse them in order to talk to other people past the crowd. Sorry if you think us choosing to not go through that abuse is unfair to the polite posters, but I’m not the one making that environment awful.
Thankyou for saying that! I am very happy with my exalted pdf and am looking forward to the finished one so i can buy a print copy.
I honestly can’t believe the vitriol being hurled about the art.
You killed no ones dog, broke up no marriages, and have been nothing but upfront about things.
I am a happy backer. Moderation allows for those like me to show that you are not “the entire community”
And really, this is the stuff that could drive good writers away. cripes
Thank you.
Yeh I can’t blame anyone for not wanting to read what the KS comment section has turned into, if the last time I poked my head in there is any indication. It’s unfortunate because there probably are people posting reasonable things there.
Well I for one am super excited about Ex3 and can’t wait for it to go on sale through DTRPG so I can pick up a copy. Missing that kickstarter is still one my big regrets when it comes to my OP collection. I loved the feel of the of Exalted and can’t wait to see an updated ruleset in action.
Also Beast, I almost skimmed right over that. Nice try with the slightly smaller font there you tricky you. Now I’m all aflutter awaiting that.
Yes, about that smaller font thing. I have no idea why some of my cut’n’pasted remarks from Mirthful Mike…shrink. It happens about every other week where for no reason I can find as I’m doing nothing differently, the pasted comment is a smaller font. There seems no way short of going into the tags to change it. (Comments from the Mirthful One also turn italic and bold when pasting once in a while too, but those are easy to toggle on and off.) So, yeah, we did it deliberately to be mysterious. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
I think it’s a little unfair to just cast off the backer comments like that. Firstly, these are the people who love and care about Exalted enough to make it the #1 RPG Kickstarter of all time, and secondly, a lot of people’s issues have been legitimate, both before and after we got the PDF.
Yes, it’s definitely true that a lot of people have made accusations and voiced things in ways that are totally out of line, but I am concerned that you are lumping all negative commentary in with that group in favour of just listening to the positive feedback. I personally am not happy with some of the art in the book and I don’t thinking saying that means that I am being unfairly accusatory or unpleasant to anyone.
If anything, the quality of the writing and the layout in general overall makes the unfortunate situation of the art in the Ex3 PDF even worse. I think that you guys have been screwed over there, and that’s really sad. But at the same time, surely you can understand where the criticism is coming from, when the fanbase cared so much and put so much into this, and the writers did the same etc etc etc, only to be let down in such a manner.
Anyway, in general I’d say that the writing for Ex3 is very good and I’m looking forward very much to running my upcoming campaign using the system. The hard work done there has not gone unappreciated.
Sure, but there’s criticism, even harsh criticism, and then there’s abuse. (And I say this as someone with no skin in the Exalted game, but who went through something similar with Beast.)
There is a similar vibe to this as well.
See this what I mean. I feel that the overall situation of the art in Ex3 is substandard, and below what the fanbase and the community at large expects these days. That’s not an attack or a personal assault on you, and there are plenty of people who would say the same thing, and it also not be an attack.
While some people are being very unpleasant, it’s worth pointing out that 1) people are only discussing Exalted because they care about it, passionately and 2) there are plenty of people who are displeased, who want to voice that, but who shouldn’t be simply cast off as mindless vitriol. There are some who should, yes, but by no means all.
So I should take my abuse because you really love me? Because that is where the “we really care so much” logic ultimately goes.
Of course there is nothing wrong with you saying you are disappointed and let down by the art. That’s not even something I take as a criticism, but as an expression of how you feel. Because, art is subjective. We like what we like.
Can you understand that there are a ton of backers who feel the opposite of what you are saying? That absolutely love how it looks? Because those are the other messages we are getting. Usually one message to a backer. Now compare that to the twenty or more posts from the more vehement haters and you understand why this is not a conversation that has clarity right now.
Rich, I absolutely love the art for the new edition. I get that some people are disappointed, but it infused the game with a completely new *feeling* and it resonates with my players and I a LOT. Forgetting some of the formatting errors in the text which I am sure are being worked out, I really think that this is one of the best products you guys have ever made. You can’t please everyone, but you have definitely pleased me. I can’t wait to review this book when I have fully digested the material and played a few sessions.
Keep up the good work, and don’t let the negativity of the vocal minority get to you.
Okay, I’ll say that the painting on page 153 is goofy on a LOT of levels… But it does NOT ruin the book in any way. I actually think that the sheer diversity of art styles fits Exalted very nicely. Even very ‘digital’ art can come from, say, the realms of Autochthon? As a matter of fact, that was the ONLY piece that caught my eye as distracting…
The above notwithstanding, RichT hit the nail on the head about the KS page drowning out any positive comments on EX3, which was exactly where I was going with my comment. If I choose to celebrate what’s good rather than decry what’s less-than-ideal, that’s my choice, and while it’s YOUR choice to make me feel like dirt for it, I am not required to listen to you.
Neither is RichT nor anyone at Onyx Path.
Sure it has clarity. I paid a lot of money and I’m, for the first time, regretting that I did that because I’ve got a substandard product. And that’s not something that is unique to me. There are numerous places of discussion on the internet where similar views are expressed regular and regretfully by people who have otherwise been very supporting.
I’m not a “hater.” I don’t think you have been properly served by the quality of the artwork you’ve been provided for this book. I feel that the fanbase and the writers have been let down by this. And I don’t actually think that when people are saying “this book is beautiful” they mean that piece of now infamous poser art, now do they.
There is a lot of the book to love, yes, but plenty of that art has been widely criticised and from what I can tell you are just trying to ignore that as hateful vitriol. It isn’t, in many many cases. These people aren’t maniacs. They are simply confused and saddened by how this happened, and they want it to get better.
If I was ignoring legitimate concerns, would I have posted the backer Update about reworking some of the art? You are the one accusing me of intending to ignore reasonable concerns. You are the one saying that insults are justified by the disappointment some backers feel and trying to argue away the opinions of those backers who have stated an opposite opinion. My point is that despite the vehemence of the posts, we actually are getting a spectrum of feedback that we are processing.
Also right now you just essentially tried to compare what I am saying to someone who is committing domestic abuse and you should know that I do not take kindly to the assertion in the slightest. It is both ridiculous and insulting, to victims of domestic violence and to people who are voicing very reasonable criticisms of a piece of work that you are responsible for managing.
No, I’m trying to get you to understand that caring a lot about a game doesn’t mean you get to abuse the creators. It’s a fanboy justification for being awful and it is unacceptable.
No, it doesn’t give you the right to abuse the creators – but none of the people here are doing that. Wouldn’t it be simpler to discuss things with us here, where we are making straight forward, non-personal statements, and not avoid discussing things because some people, elsewhere, got too personal?
It makes perfect sense to me at the point where our efforts and the situation is no longer one where we are still evolving the project to its ultimate final PDF.
When you made similar comment on the forum Solar. Plenty of people pointed out that no one compared you to the people making personal attacks on anyone involved on the game line, and in fact pointed out that constructive criticisms(which you’ve been giving, mostly) are helpful. You then summarily ignored every single person who posted in response and just kept repeating comments on why are you being considered toxic over and over.
Let me add an important piece for the sake of clarification. Now I am not speaking for Rich T. or any other part of OPP. But I believe I know what they ARE referring to. Namely there has been a contingent of people who have not been providing what can reasonably be called constructive criticism. Instead it’s been accusations of vapourware, fraud both on the ks as well as in regards to funds for Morke’s medical issue as well as commentary that some of the fan base are “SJW” fanboys who are fellating the dev team. Just to give a sample. Does this sound like the well thought out criticisms of rational people? Considering at least two such people made troll accounts earlier this year that were banned maybe just maybe that isn’t the case. Furthermore there has been constructive critiques to be found including on this forum.Now the same people who keep making the claim that OPP and the dev team are calling the fan base toxic keep mysteriously leaving out all the rest of us not tossing pejoratives and keep saying the only places they can talk later s either a few places with no moderation or one that favours pejoratives. Frankly that is them having the problem. It’s a basic part of acting an adult in society. There is plenty to examine and critique on the exalted pdf but the gulf between that and the handful of screechin voices is rather wide. I think rich and co can tell the difference.
You nailed it. Thanks.
Three days ago I’ve sent the following message to Rich Thomas via the Contact Me on Kickstarter:
“Hi Rich!
First things first congratulations on yet another major step towards seeing this ambitious project coming to fruition. It’s an exciting time to be an Exalted fan and the initial PDF delivers in a lot of ways.
Either way I would like to ask you why is that it doesn’t have a specific section/chapter on creating and storytelling a chronicle? Or, like BvBPL wrote on the Exalted’s Onyx Path Forum, why isn’t there information on “how to plan a story, write a compelling antagonist, develop a theme mood and tone, or suggest viable conflicts for a role playing group”?
After questioning it on the forums some of the writers and/or developers answered that this material was spread out through the book and that it was included in some of the text boxes. I’ve searched through it and haven’t found any relevant information besides some minor sugestions regarding adjucating a particular rule or roleplaying a specific mechanic.
Was it a purposeful decision from the developing team so the project would target the experienced Exalted players and GMs? Wasn’t making it instructional to any new players who could pick it as their first RPG (or any older players like me who haven’t really “mastered” how to GM it) an intended goal? Are there any plans to address this omission it in the future?
Thanks for your time,
João Mariano”
I haven’t got any answer yet but since then I’ve come to realize that maybe these weren’t quite the notes on mistakes and notes that was asked of the fans to be sent through that channel and these days must have been quite busy for the Onyx Path as whole.
Either way I decided to post it here as I’m curious (and slightly puzzled) as to what was the rationale for that decision and what you guys think about it.
Thanks in advance for your answers. 😉
As I recall from my talks with the Devs, they felt like the way they have structured the book covers the interesting info storytellers normally get from such a chapter, while eliminating the parts that are unneeded. In general, I really don’t think that there is some sort of schematic for RPG books that they all need to be built with.
Would it be too unfair on my part to propose the possibility that what it is written on the book, even if it isn’t presented in a more tradicional format, isn’t enough to teach someone new how to fundamentally GM the game? Or even to some experienced gamers who haven’t played the game before or Storytellers who haven’t found the most optimal way to do it?
Of course you can, but we’re stuck with expressing opinions unless the EX3 Devs show up to discuss their thinking further.
Yeah, it seems like it. 🙂
Anyway thanks for your words on the matter as in you doing so promptly only strenghtens the reasons why White Wolf/Onyx Path is the RPG publisher whose creative endeavours I faithfullly follow and always try to support since I first became a fan back in middle 90’s.
Rich, it seems I’m not able to reply to your reply to my post, so…
No, those art pieces were not the only ones I liked. There is plenty of other beautiful art. There are also, though, a lot of pieces that I find so badly done and so out of tune with the rest that they drag down the general quality of the book a great deal.
I feel like a list of which pieces I have issue with would be beyond the scope of this post, but well… There’s a list and it’s long.
No one from OPP suggested to me personally that I should lower my expectations, but no one addressed my concerns in any other way either. You replied to me that some art was being redone; I knew as much rom my backer update. You also added “without going into details” which has kinda been the leitmotif with this KS… But now the PDF is out, we can point at page numbers and say “here, I think there’s an issue with this exact thing” and we’d expect an answer to that. And I think the time of not going into details is past; the window between today and the book going into print in its final form is relatively short, now is the time for full transparency from all parts involved.
I imagine it kinda sucks to have to wade through thousands of comments complaining about quality, but I thinkthey should be treated like a request for errata; something that would give you an incentive to improve the product. And the beauty of art is subjective, but maybe at a certain critical mass of people complaining that a certain piece is flat looking/out of style/doesn’t deserve a prominent position at the start of the book then you shoudl consider that it’d be really better for the book if it was corrected or replaced.
It seems like you feel like there’s a lot of art not to your taste. That’s your right, and I’m not going to argue about your feelings. If you are expecting that we will go piece by piece and review each one based on your opinions, though, I’m afraid that that is an unreasonable expectation to have. Because, again, art is subjective. That piece you hate, some backer really loves. That one you love, a backer hates. A whole mess of people feel one way, a whole bunch feel the other. That leaves me to make the calls, and that’s what I’m doing as per the Update. But here, let me give you an example so you know I actually do listen. I’m keeping the bear-ripping illustration. It’s not one of my favorites, but we’ve heard a lot of positive feedback on it.
Okay, that was an easy one, who doesn’t love some barbarian ripping through a bear? (animalists, I guess)
I’m not expecting that you review each piece based on my opinions. I’d expect though that you considered reviewing those pieces that are bad according to our opinions.
Ah well, there’s plenty of discussion on other forums about specific pieces of art and I’m sure you are keeping tabs on it. I think you will find the spread on pages 12-13 mentioned often and not in a positive way and I hope it will seriously be reevaluated. I suppose I’ll wait for the finished product and let results speak for themselves.
I have criticisms of the layout (not really so much the art as the fonts; I think a lot of them are just too small and either too generic or hard to read) and a little the writing (only in that there’s some stuff with comma usage), but ultimately? THAT IS REALLY SMALL STUFF! For the most part, I am thrilled and elated and already salivating for the next books.
This is 3+ years of a lot of people’s lives, and I can only imagine the relief of all the people who worked really, really hard through a lot of very, very trying circumstances to bring this into being. This is a major achievement, and it’s a shame so much of it has been clouded. Frankly, in all the kerfuffle, I’ve consciously deleted several posts in different places expressing anything even remotely critical just because I don’t want to add to the negativity. A few deep breaths would do a lot of good right now.
My constructive criticism: Fonts/Layout used for sections and their headings.
Ex3 is a dense read and as such steps should be taken to help readers find information as quickly and easily as possible. The layout/font for most section headers are extremely subtle. Most of the general text and section headings have a similar font and size. (See p213, Social Influence, heading) If I was flipping thru the book I would never pick out most of the section headers without almost as much effort as it would take to stop and read the book page by page.
Potential solution: Make section headings fonts a little bigger (not alot) and (possibly) underlined. Section headings are just that, signs in the book saying “STOP HERE” “THIS WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR!” They should stand out from existing material not blend in.
Also, this would allow you to loose the HUGE amount of dead space behind the section headings. I like how Ex3 uses negative space in the book, but section headings should be attached to their text. Keep the divide between a completed section and a new heading, that is great. But the divide between headings and their sections is such that the headings appear to be simple text with no attachment to the text above or below. (see p189 and the headings for different types of actions and combat) Yes, the fonts are different and slightly larger, but they blend in appear to be part of the existing text more than they appear to be headers for a new section. In a manual as info dense as Ex3 is, you want your info to jump out at readers. Not be hard to find. I bet this would allow you to reclaim more pages than you would loose from growing the section header fonts.
I admire that Op wanted to do a new type of layout and setting for Ex3. That being said, look at V/WW/M20. When you flip the pages in those tomes your eyes are almost instantly grabbed by the section headers on the pages and you quickly know what information is on that page by just scanning a few lines of text. By not doing this Ex3 becomes a very non-user-friendly wall of text.
Very glad you have enjoyed the format styles we have been using for decades. I think that format is very readable, too. Maria was brought in specifically to give EX3 a new look unlike what I or another designer I trained would create as a format. Because it is very new, it may look confusing to your eyes. Which is not to say that some aspects can’t and won’t be tweaked as we get to judge them through use, but from my own example, I found the formatting easier to use after having gone through the proofs the first couple of times.
Secrets of the Covenants making a massive leap forward? Yaaaay! Really looking forward to it. :]
The whole situation with Ex3 is leaving me feeling pretty burned out with the community, much like Beast did. And I know it’s only a minority of voices, but even just the thought of interacting with it is maddening, and I can’t imagine how much worse it must be as creatives having your work attacked. You guys are pretty amazing for being able to engage at all.
And I say this having some pretty big philosophical disagreements about design with the Ex3 team. I don’t think I’m ever going to attempt to run Ex3, because while it’s a very competent handling of what it’s trying to be, my playstyle tastes have drifted even further toward simplicity in the years since the KS, and it’s just way too fiddly for me to want to try to run. Time is too much of a premium as my group and I get older, and speed/ease of play does not seem to have been a central design concern, which, to be fair, is probably as it should be for Exalted. But I think I’m no longer part of the target market, systems wise at least.
It would really help a lot if there was a general understanding that we can disagree about things, and even comment on things we don’t like, and, especially, why we don’t like them, without it becoming some sort of personal attack on us when things aren’t made exclusively to our tastes, or people have, y’know, *different tastes*. Of course, it’d also be nice if we had an end to war and everyone ha
It’s depressing how these things keep ending up.
*everyone had a rainbow pooping wish granting pet unicorn, and all three are about equally likely to happen.
I just wanted to say that after reading Lore of the Clans PDF on my trip last week that I found the tone and content in line with my dusty memories of VtM and just generally amazing. If anything it has whet my appetite for Lore of the Bloodlines.
LotC was my second kickstarer for OP, the first being Dark Ages. Looking over the KS for DA vs the subsequent KS the entire setup has been very different for other KS – less direct involvement (by voting on content of the books) and more focused on community promotion of the product / kickstarter. I felt the most involved with DA’s KS vs any other KS I’ve been a part of because I really enjoyed the voting aspects, but I would guess there was a population of salty backers whose preferred setting options didn’t make the cut.
I hope one day there will be a write up on how the voting on additions and settings as a part of the stretch goals impacted the development process for that book / the NWOD lines and how OP handled future KS.
As a counterpoint to all the art talk, I’ve just reviewed the Beast backer PDF and I have found it absolutely amazing visually. I had high hoped for freakish images based on the book’s topic and I was not let down.
Now, if only I had the time to READ the book.
I agree. The book is both gorgeous AND freakish. In fact, I find it the most “modern horror” book in RPGs for a long time… Congratulations to all the writers, artists and devs (I know you went trought a lot with this one…)
And the book was early! Kuddos!
Thanks AND thanks! And thanks for noticing the delivery timing.
I have a suggestion for Exalted, once it goes live “for real,” not related to the content itself but rather the delivery. I don’t know how feasible this is with how DTRPG and OPP works, but I think it’s worth making a suggestion at least.
From what I hear, the book is HUGE, clocking in at over 600 pages. To be frank, that is very unwieldy for use at the table, not to mention reading on the bus and such. Would it be possible to provide an option at DTRPG for delivery in a number of smaller volumes instead? For example, one for character generation/playing (how to make a character, what traits mean, how to do stuff), one for charms, and one for Storyteller stuff (e.g. antagonists, artifacts, and such)? As an added bonus, that would allow people to buy multiple copies of just the Charms volume for in-game reference.
From what I understand, there’s a quickstart guide that’s going to be coming out. A Storyteller should be able to note down a few hings from the books for his or her own usage, but the QS guide should help with character creation and cheat sheets.
That’s the intention, yes!
Ooh, great art there. Looks like the invasion of the Americas.
And if you guys can get Steve Prescott and/or Drew Tucker to illustrate Apocalypse again, it would be awesome.
Also WOOOOT EX3!!! It’s finally started!
If only I could read it. Oh well.
Question – if we didn’t back the Beast kickstarter, but want the PDF – how long do you expect a wait from the backer release to the drivethrurpg release? Thanks!
We put both the PDF and PoD up for sale on DriveThruRPG at the same time, so once we get the changes put into the PDF we’ll then need to make and approve the PoD files, so in about a month, I’d think. Thanks!
Hey Rich,
I’m very sad to see not much mention of Wraith. The projected date at the of the KS was November. I know you said there was a delay, but does this mean you’re no where close, or will this be out by end of 2015?
I’m sure there are several folks like me that would appreciate a better update since the last one dropped in September.
Understood. Was waiting on new developed text from Rich Dansky, which you’ll see very soon in an Update. If you missed it, I did point out in several previous Updates that we are running late due to RichD’s unexpected day job duties. Thanks!