The answer is: practice!
That’s an old joke told to me by the Prince of Tucker.
I, on the other hand, will be getting to Nashville by plane as I head south this week to visit our Live Action gaming friends and fans, and hang out with some By Night Studios kids, at the Nashville By Night convention. From Onyx Path, Eddy and I will be once again hosting this year’s “What’s Up With The Onyx Path?” panel/Q&A at 10am Friday, Eddy will be doing his world renowned “Your Game Still Sucks!” presentation at 2pm Friday, and I think we are both on Matt McElroy’s “Vampire: The Trivia” panel/Q&A/gameshow at 4pm Saturday. I’m told this will be equal parts trivia and tales of the ol’ White Wolf days. Come on by and see me forget we published WoD: Mafia, again. In fact, just come on by to see us, and if you are there, feel free to come over and chat any time ya’ll see me a sittin’. https://www.facebook.com/MasqueradeByNight
Sorry to be a day late with this week’s blog. We discovered that a thread on our Kickstarters was spiraling out of control on a different forum and I needed to go over and post to explain why we do things like we do with our KSs to the posters there. All very much the sort of conversation it is good to have, but it ate up a bit of my afternoon that is usually devoted to this blog. The other thing was a post I needed to make on the Scion forums here that basically reinforced an idea I have spoken of before on this blog – we’re all fans of our games, so let’s not be mean to each other.
A pretty simple idea, really, but sometimes hard to remember in the savage dog eat dog world of internet posting. One of the things to come out of our big Onyx Path Summit at Gen Con (all of a month ago) was to continue to prioritize tightening up how we do things. This includes the way we run our social media (you might have seen Ian’s new FB pages for our lines), this site (we have the new Mailing List sign up right to the right here), and the forums.
For a while now, we’ve been concerned at the general impression the Scion forums have given new fans who want to post there. At best, they were unwelcoming. Along with the obvious forum complaint posts, I personally got a fair number of private messages expressing how folks felt like they’d been run off, and I had a half dozen people stop in the Gen Con booth to tell me they didn’t know we were doing the 2nd Edition because they’d never read the forum as it was too nasty. Obviously, this is a bad situation for a publishing company, particularly with 2nd Edition coming, but a lot of the regular posters are really good people and loyal fans who kept interest in Scion going when nothing at all was being published, so it is not a simple situation.
After talking with the Onyx gang yesterday and more with Rose and the moderators, I let folks in the Scion forum know that we were serious about stopping thread bullying, and would be watching more carefully, but we expected them to be excellent to each other as fellow Scion fans. As always, with a post like that one, there are the follow up posts to clarify what was meant and to go over things that seem obvious to you but not to someone else reading the post. So that took up another big chunk of time, and here we are.
And here are the Updates:
DEVELOPMENT STATUS FROM ROLLICKING ROSE
First Draft (The first phase of a project that is about the work being done by writers, not dev prep)
- Promethean: the Created 2nd Edition, featuring the Firestorm Chronicle (Promethean: the Created)
- Beast: the Primordial core book (Beast: The Primordial)
- W20 Pentex Employee Indoctrination Handbook (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Idigam Chronicle Fiction Anthology (Werewolf: the Forsaken)
- Mage: the Awakening 2nd Edition, featuring the Fallen World Chronicle (Mage: the Awakening)
- Fallen World Chronicle Fiction Anthology (Mage: the Awakening)
- M20 How do you DO that? (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- M20 Book of Secrets (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Cursed Necropolis: Rio (Mummy: the Curse)
- Sothis Ascends (Mummy: the Curse)
- Secrets of the Covenants (Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition)
- Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anniversary Edition
- V20 Black Hand: Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- W20 Novel by Mike Lee (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Exalted 3rd Novel by Matt Forbeck (Exalted 3rd Edition)
Redlines
- V20 Lore of the Clans (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Mummy Fiction Anthology (Mummy: the Curse)
- V20 Red List (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Exalted 3rd Fiction Anthology (Exalted 3rd Edition)
Second Draft
- W20 Book of the Wyrm Stretch Goals for Added Content In the Book (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- V20 Ghouls (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition, featuring the Idigam Chronicle (Werewolf: the Forsaken)
Development
- World of Darkness Dark Eras- Vampire chapter (WoD Dark Eras)
- Exalted 3rd Edition core book- Ongoing art notes and final tuning on Charms as the book nears completion. We’re pushing to get as much done as possible before John goes in to surgery on Wednesday. (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Firestorm Chronicle Fiction Anthology (Promethean: the Created 2nd Edition)
Editing
- Book of the Deceived (Mummy: the Curse)
- Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition core book (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- World of Darkness Dark Eras core book (WoD Dark Eras)
- W20 White Howlers (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
Development (post-editing)
- W20 Umbra (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition
ART DIRECTION FROM MIRTHFUL MIKE
- White Howlers – I can probably start on that this week. John said he’s wrapping up the comic this weekend.
- Book of the Deceived – Got a couple of guys from the B&W pool looking for something to do…and one of my other guys finished his couple of pieces for DA…so I can probably get this thing rolling along. Might just have one of them do the splats and roll with this sucker.
- DtD Seattle – Still need errata from Dev.
- DtD Demonseed collection – Done and out to backers.
- DtD Interface – Still need errata from Dev.
- Book of the Wyrm 20 – Screen is done.
- DAV20 – Starting to see some sketches. Looking good thus far. Kieran should be done in the next day or two. Need to start doing page design and maybe layout a few test spreads in the clan section so the kids can get an idea of what we are working on. Also need to figure out what we are doing in regards to the PoD covers as those will pop up before the LtD ones. Pinging Sto about the clan symbols. Working on Kickstarter page and video.
- Anarchs Unbound – Still tweaking cover but otherwise at press. Rethinking some of the cover stickers regarding their size. Screen is ready to go whenever.
- T-Shirts – Sent around a bunch on Thursday for approval…various cover art shirts, some Pentex logo shirts, new Exalted shirts, and many more.
- Umbra – Sketches coming in. Just had a guy drop on me…5 pcs two weeks before deadline. Sent full notes to Borja.
- Art O’ The Changin’ Breeds – Managed to get some stuff done on this. Right now roughing in the art placement then I’ll figure out the text to fill it in..
- VTR II – Prepping a pdf so Rose can find all the references to the B&S title and swap it out for the new title.
- EX3- Not Mike, but the first 91 pieces are reviewed, reference material is getting assembled, and Mel Uran has her package of art notes, backer characters and other reference, and contracts.
REASON TO DRINK: Nashville. By night.
Comments
39 responses to “How Do You Get To Nashville (by Night)?”
Ok, I am honestly super excited by the lineup. I am sorry to see Scion being treated poorly. It’s always been a sort of cult favorite of one group I play with.
Beast sounds stunning, book of the deceived is the Mummy supplement I’ve most looked forward to, Werewolf makes me giddy, and Exalted entering its final stages is all kinds of exciting.
Honestly, you guys need to take a break from stacking so much awesome. It’s bad for my blood pressure.
Thanks. I wouldn’t say Scion has been treated poorly, so much as the forum culture evolved in a way that wasn’t welcoming to new fans. I don’t think this was at all deliberate on the part of the regular posters there, it just went that way over time.
Super excited btw to have been able to read this in my email when I got home from work today. Love the new mailing list feature! Also the steps you guys are taking in general to really make/improve your internet presence. Top-notch effort leading to top-notch results. Hooray!
I’m just glad the Mailing list worked! Thanks so much!
A few questions –
1) I could swear that Sothis and Rio were in the Redline stage. Yet they are listed under first drafts now? Did they go back for a rewrite?
2) What is “development” its listed after second drafts so does it come after them? Is it kinda like “special” third drafts for books that need a bit of a rewrite after the traditional writing period?
3) Does the “B&W pool” mentioned in the Deceived entry mean “Black and White”?
4) Don’t suppose you can give us any idea about what’s the plan/going on with the NWoD second edition core book? Requiem needs a pdf edit, some corrections to some names in greek and a new intro which is mentioned above. I imagine the general core for the NWoD needs a little more work then that. So I was wondering if that was even in a sorta “dev” phase at the moment.
Though I’m not a Scion fan I’ve always found the forums (Classic and New WoD) on this site to be pretty open, helpful and reasonable friendly. So I’m genuinely surprised by what you mentioned in the blog about people getting run off. Good to know you guys keep on top of that stuff.
1- Both Rio and Sothis are missing a section of the book as the writers are running late. Rose tries to avoid advancing a book to the next stage until all the pieces can be said to go to that stage, depending on the info she gets from the Devs.
2- Yes, the Devs can work on fine tuning the writing up until layout. They should be done with their development of the writing at that point.
3- Yes.
4- Not in development yet. Rose proposed an outline that I was pretty good with.
Any movement on the Geist PCs?
Mentioned after the meeting, but nothing concrete, so not in the Updates.
I love Kickstarter. It is great way to get stuff funded that would ordinarily never be made, or to speed funding of things that would be made, but cost a lot more then a company’s warchest would allow them to do at once.
What bugs me are the people who do not understand how Kickstarter works. It is not a pre-order. It is investment. The only one of the Onyx Path Kickstarters that I really have any issues with is the Exalted 3rd Edition one. But, I did not have the funds at the time to support that one, so I do not have a horse in that race. But, for the most part, Onyx Path’s kickstarters are well run, and when there are delays, you tell us.
At the same time, I understand a bit of how things work in book publishing, and in miniatures games, etc. So, when I see people commenting on ‘Hey! This product is late from its estimated fulfillment date! RAGE!’ I want to reach across the internet and do horrible things to them. I often wonder how much research people do before they pledge to kickstarter(my theory: most do VERY little).
So, with all that said, I will support the Wraith20 Kickstarter(more just on principle), and I might even consider the Super Deluxe Changeling 20(looking at faux stained glass, right?). But I will continue to support which of your kickstarters I can afford. Not just because I love your product, but because your Kickstarters are some of the best run I have seen. (Actually…I think Reaper’s are the only ones that I have seen better run.)
I think you are spot on with how a lot of folks are still learning what KS is and how it functions. And backers really do need to read the information, all of it, and not immediately react before what they read has sunk in. I’d say a good half of our “complaints” are based on that alone. Not the damages or lost book issues, though, those are a different thing entirely, but “my name isn’t in the book”, or “I never received the PDFs I’m owed” sort of stuff.
Correct me if i’m wrong here but when you start a Kickstarter, part of the agreement you sign as a creator is that you are obliged to deliver all the rewards promised in the various backer levels in a time-frame as close as possible to the estimate given. Many if not most Kickstarters experience some delays it’s to be exspected, its the reason why the delivery dates are “estimated”, but any project that folds or experiences major delays are technically in conflict with the Kickstarter agreements, right?
Kickstarter as a company doesn’t actively enforce these rules but they are still something that every creator has to sign off on in order to lend some weight to any case backers might make against them if a project collapses or runs into major issues. Otherwise any creator could take our money, quit the project and say technically we never had an obligation to succeed.
I agree that Kickstarter is an investment service in some cases, but it is also just as commonly used to promote near finished products and in those cases it is accurately described as a pre-order service. And no matter how you describe Kickstarter projects, investment or pre-order, there is a perfectly valid and Kickstarter supported expectation that projects will be completed as close to on time as possible.
No actually. You are putting the cart before the horse. The estimate is just that, an estimate. Not a promise, not a standard by which the project is intended to be measured by the ideals behind Kickstarter. What KS is for at its core is to enable creative people to get the financing they need to create their projects. The estimated delivery date is in fact a fundamental difference between a Kickstarter and a pre-order precisely because there are no actual “rules” that connect to the delivery date. There are rules on how a creator needs to deal with their backers if a project falls apart and they can’t deliver, but time is only an issue with backers who aren’t aware of how KS is actually designed to work. KS, like ourselves, prefers that project creators demonstrate good faith efforts to complete their projects in a timely fashion, and that they show progress to their backers as part of demonstrating a belief in the strength of the creator/backer relationship. But I’ve had several non-game projects that gave me only a handful of updates and none that demonstrated actual progress. Those projects also came out anywhere from early to really late, but that is the nature of trying to create something cool.
I don’t think i’m entirely wrong here. I’ll concede that part of the Kickstarter agreement states; “The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by.”
But it also states immediately after that clause; “Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date.” There may not be a hard obligation to meet the estimated date, but there is certainly some level of expectation that a creator will try their best to come as close as possible.
I think the problem I see here is that some people in the comments here and on Kickstarter treat that first clause as an excuse to wave off the legitimate complaints that others have. An ideal Kickstarter will meet its estimated delivery, and I don’t think people should be chastised when they say that a project that doesn’t meet its estimated delivery date is less than ideal.
Yes, and if they do make that attempt, they show progress and communicate with the fans, then that’s how KS is supposed to work. That’s the ideal. Already you are starting to get to the “wave off complaints” argument instead of trying to understand that we and other creators are not waving off your complaints, we’re telling you that you are complaining about something that is not the important part of the KS experience.
(I’ll comment here because the thread is full below…)
You telling me that concerns over meeting delivery dates “is not the important part of the KS experience” is exactly what is frustrating me and many other backers. I know you want this project done as soon as possible and are are working hard towards that goal, but for many of us getting a timely return on our investment is of not insignificant importance even in comparison to taking the time needed to make a quality product.
My gaming group are not wealthy bunch, and for the four of them then went all out buying the print editions and maps it was a significant investment. That was money that could have been spent in other places but wasn’t because they were presented with the image of a product that would be finished in a few months time.
At this point I know there is nothing we can do but wait, but the comments that we don’t understand how Kickstarter works, that the delay of more than a year is perfectly fine and to be expected…these statements leave many backers bitter, I try to be active in these comments on behalf rest of my gaming group, they backed this project in far greater amounts than me, but now feel so apathetic about this project that they have no interest in what Onypath is producing, two will never consider backing a Onypath kickstarter again, and these are people who own every single Exalted book from the previous edition and were extremely excited when the EX3 Kickstarter began.
In speaking of the core philosophy of KS, I am in no way hand-waving away your concerns. I have never denied backers their right to feel however they feel about any of our KS processes. The original point of this thread was that assumptions are made by backers that are not what is intended by KS, or by the KS project’s creators. The delivery of EX3 is one very specific aspect of one KS, and obviously one you feel very strongly about.
Hey there Onyx Path.
A couple of things I’d like to discuss. After all those incredible new announcements. 😀
1. Above all. Thank you. Just the most sincere thank you I could ever say. Over the past year, many fans such as I have voiced desires and opinions and time and again we have been listened to. Speaking only from my own perspective, after W20 Changing Breeds, I honestly though we’d never seen them again and here you give us an entire book on the wars of rage. Giving exactly the kind of lore I’ve been longing for and frequently posted about. And that is even more true with Changing Ways. Of course, I am but one voice amongst many, and it may well be that the books would have ended up being made anyway but the end result to me feels the same. I feel like I have been listened to and respected as a fan like no other company has ever done. So, really, thank you.
2. What about Fiction? I’ve been wondering if it would be possible to discuss the plans for novels? Could it be a thing again in the future or are the stretch goals ones the only novels that will get made from now on?
3. Just wanted to express that the new lineup is impressive and filled to the brink with tremendously interesting books. You guys are on a roll and showing no signs of slowing down. But I did have one question regarding “changing ways”. With a title like that, one has to wonder if the book will cover feras in general or only the Garou?
4. Any news of the digital side of things? I know there was an interest in a Dice Roller and that kind of things. It’s been a while since I asked, so, I just wanted to see if there were anything new on that side.
Thank you!
Yiodan.
1- Thanks! We’re all in this together.
2- Gonna be talking about that with a couple key Onyx folks in a sort of Fiction Summit in Nashville. Right now, the best way for us to afford to have fiction created is through tying it to big releases or KSs as we have not yet developed our ideal creation>sales path. Yet.
3- As far as the pitch indicated, it’s Garou.
4- Still in development. Still very much an area we want to do more with. But there are all these books to work on…
Roger that. Thanks, Richt. 🙂
I’ve been thinking about the concept of epistemological rupture in the context of the gaming industry lately. The short version is, scientific research develops conceits that become so prevalent that they obstruct innovation and reproduce mistakes. If you want to move forward, you need to sever the continuity of the past. In the past, books were published on time because the delays were obscured from the public or the book was sent off for publication regardless of whether it was ready or not. People don’t realize that with the switch to PoD, there’s no reason to hide the delays or publish books that are essentially unfinished.
As frustrating as it is to deal with people who simply do not want to learn, I can’t really blame them. People just aren’t taught how to think properly these days.
(This is also why I go into an absolute frothing rage when people go on about how their house rules are better than the default. What they don’t realize is that the default rules need to be designed for a maximum range of variability across games, and that pandering to a specifc group of people will inevitably narrow the range and prevent others from running the game how they want.
Then there’s game design philosophy. Some people have absolutely terrible ideas about game design, but I’m mostly okay with that. I don’t like class-based games like D&D as much as I used to, but I can at least understand what it does and how it works. My problem is with people who impose their view of game design without even trying to understand how the game is constructed and treat any attempt to explain how the game actually works as an argument.)
Eddy and I both agree that RPG books have a pretty unique quality of being malleable to the amount of attention to the text any individual wants or can apply to reading through it. A very simple example: I hate encumbrance rules. Just loathe them as a list making waste of effort when we’re supposed to be having fun. So none of my games I run worry about that, yet those game rules do include encumbrance. So my version of the game is not actually the game as intended.
This does not bother me.
The next stage of this phenomenon is when we hear about a supposed text section in one of our game lines – the classic lines have the most instances of this – which doesn’t actually exist in the line. The player had just been using that houserule for so long, they mentally put it in there. We’ve had fans quote the book and page number, but when read, the rule or setting bit is actually different than they thought.
So our idea of what a certain game line is: amazingly subjective.
Well dang… By the time I got here, someone had already said or asked everything I wanted to do. Oh, except that I appreciate references to Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure and (in a comment) an oblique reference to the movie Brazil! Yeah, my friends call me Harry, in fact.
Seriously though, keep up the great work. I’m glad that every time I direct a friend to this site (the news or forums), and when I direct someone to your DriveThru pages, I hear words to the effect of, ‘This is bloody fantastic!’ It shows that you’re all doing what you do very well, and I thank you, again, for it!
Very nice to hear! Thanks for all the referrals. I have some Buckaroo Banzai quotes that also apply, but a saving them for a different crisis. 🙂
Thank you for the expanded titles as opposed to the abreviations. I would never have realized that M:tC was Mummy and not Mage. And I played a mummy for a few game sessions a long time ago.
Good to hear! Now that I took the time to reformat all that, it should be easy to keep up on.
Google+ has a pretty large gaming community. I know some posts make it over there, but is it possible to make sure the G+ postings are more consistent? For example, I know some of the MtAw teasers never made it over. I love spreading the news when I can, and reshare many of the posts.
I try, but G+’s social support is nearly non-existent. It doesn’t have any built-in functionality for automatic cross-posting, nor is there any built-in way to schedule posts ahead of time (although there are a few kludgy workarounds).
We also get very little in the way of interaction — the “social” part of social media. A post sent to Facebook will get a dozen likes and at least a few comments with maybe a reshare or two. The same post sent to G+ will often get nothing except a single +1. Even Tumblr and Twitter give us more interaction than G+.
It makes it difficult to justify the extra effort spent to ensure everything gets posted there. As I said, I do try, but it’s not as high on my priority list as other social media outlets.
As a really heavy user of G+ personally and professionally I wanted to chime in on this.
There’s definitely benefits for more timely G+ updates from OPP, but also a more expanded presence there, really taking advantage of what it can do and the unique features it offers as a platform.
I can see why the interaction is lower on G+ for OPP right now. Looking through the OPP G+ page, there’s a lot of posts that really just link to website articles…..and that’s about it.
Primarily pushing out posts with minimal commentary, just linking to website articles doesn’t really cut it on G+.
The thing about G+ is that its a really good dialog tool – best used through in-depth text posts crafted to encourage interaction and conversation, not to mention taking full advantage of its image capabilities, video/Youtube integration and of course Hangouts. Seriously, hangouts could be an amazing resource for you guys.
G+ takes a little time to curate and a shift in mindset, its far less ‘fire and forget’ then FB & TW.
I appreciate that this takes time & resource though.
In many ways G+ has far more going for it than FB and Twitter for gamers and those marketing to gamers. The audience is definitely there – the gamer crowd is VERY active and engaged, if approached the right way. From what I can see in various G+ communities and my own circles its also growing notably.
I’m fairly sure it could be a great marketing tool for OPP if tackled with an approach that takes advantage its specific nuances.
Anyways, just my 2c. 😀
I get that, but again, if I have to spend a fair amount additional time to “curate” posts specific to G+ just to get the same level of interaction I could get on literally any other social media outlet we have a presence on… why should I bother? What advantage is there to me doing that?
If we’re on five primary outlets — G+, Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, and Reddit — spending as much time on G+ as I spend on the rest put together just to get the same level of interaction the rest enjoy doesn’t seem like an investment, it feels like a waste of time which could better be spent elsewhere.
“why should I bother”.
Because that’s where your fans and potential customers increasingly are….some of them exclusively.
No skin off my nose if you choose not to though 🙂
Awesome to see the White Howlers comic near finished up! Can you hint at the deadlines for the rest of the art in there? What are the standard editing steps after getting it all back?
A very light editing pass/read thru is all it needs in that regard. Layout, layout proofing, layout fixes, CCP approval. PDF to backers. Comments come in, some fixes maybe, PDF fixed. PoD files created and uploaded, PoD proof approved. On sale at DTRPG.
Cool, thanks!
Hello, me again. I just realized I add another question.
In one of the panels, I think I heard it mentioned that you didn’t require CCP approval for classic WOD anymore. But, obviously, I misunderstood.
Did I completely misinterpret or are there some gamelines where you are 100% free to do as you wish?
Still have to submit all nWoD, Exalted, and cWoD products, just like always. They do tell us that they love what we’re doing, so it is a pretty nice approval process, but it’s still there.
Then I must have heard wrong, thanks for clarifying. Unless this could apply to Scion, Cavalier and such?
I have no idea what was specifically said in those panel tapes, but that makes sense. To clarify: cWoD, Exalted, nWoD are all still owned by CCP and Onyx Path has a license to create tabletop RPGs in those three intellectual properties that requires we submit work to CCP for approval before publishing. This is currently an amicable relationship.
Onyx Path owns Scion, the Trinity Continuum, and is partners on the Scarred Lands. We have no external approvals because they are our IPs.
Onyx Path is working with some creators to brings their projects (Cavaliers of Mars, Pugmire) to life and each of these “creator owned” projects is set up differently. So far, each creator is intimately involved with the creation process and so formal approvals before publishing are not necessary.
Hope the surgery goes well for John, and that’s finally the end of it.
You and me both, my friend. Thank you for the sentiment.