Here I was working on the outline and finding writers for the Storyteller’s Guide, and thinking about the interest in it on the forums. There’ll be things people specifically asked for. So you could consider there’s been some open development already.
But I also have a little time to spin this book up, so I thought it’d be nice to share the outline. I’ve never shared a project this early in development, and it seems like this one might really benefit.
Ground rules:
- Please don’t get into arguments over how much wordcount goes where. While I may yet adjust that, it’s all been pretty carefully set up and I don’t want open development to get bogged down in abstract numbers.
- Please don’t cut and paste from the document. Instead, link to this blog post. When I’m doing open development, the public file is a living document, and I often make changes because of feedback or brainstorms.
- I’ve redacted some portions where I want to preserve a bit of surprise. None of these are big shockers, but there are a few things I don’t want to spoil.
With that said, here it is!
Comments
48 responses to “The Demon Storyteller’s Guide (Open Development)”
Looks great! What I’d like to see in the Angel section is more clarity on angelic Covers (since they use them to fit in to the world as much as they need, rather than for hiding form the God-Machine), angels that don’t use a cover, either appearing in their native form or entirely ethereal, etc. More ideas on what they look like (probably a good fit in the Incarnations sections).
I fully agree on the Covers. The Demon rulebook didn’t have any explicit information on how Angelic Covers (and the infrastructure maintaining cover) function. Sometimes it seemed like the Mortal Mask Numen would provide this cover, but it seems horribly inadequate in most cases (e.g. an Angel that has to stay in cover for prolonged times). So more information on Angelic Covers would be welcome, even if the section lacked explicit mechanics because Angels are NPCs.
I fully agree with TJ about Covers. The Demon rulebook didn’t have any explicit information on how Angelic Covers (and the infrastructure maintaining cover) function. Sometimes it seemed like the Mortal Mask Numen would provide this cover, but it seems horribly inadequate in most cases (e.g. an Angel that has to stay in cover for prolonged times). So more information on Angelic Covers would be welcome, even if the section lacked explicit mechanics because Angels are NPCs.
Thirded. Some Angels have Mortal Mask numen in the core book, but other human-looking ones don’t.
There probably isn’t room for a lot on Covers, but I think it’s something we can address.
Thanks! I love these Open Development blogs!
I like doing them. 🙂
Like all the stuff proposed – maybe having question on Biblical setting a bit – but wanting one thing in World of Darkness general section – the crossover ideas with Inferno and Empyrean. If one gameline should have mixing with those realms, it’s Demon, isn’t it? Would love to see Agendas based on those, but at least some classical demonic and angelic stuff would be golden.
“the crossover ideas with Inferno and Empyrean. If one gameline should have mixing with those realms, it’s Demon, isn’t it?”
This +1.
“We don’t need fully-statted example angels here”
Yes, we do. And I found out quite hard to create my own banes and ban. Please expand those section a bit if you can
There’s this cute little book called “The Encyclopedia of Superstitions” I found it on Amazon for spare change and it’s 7 shades of awesome for creating bans and banes.
I’m gonna echo Amadeu here. Providing the rules is perfect, but at least ONE kind of example or something would be good.
We have the angels that have appeared so far in the game to draw on too, but variety is the spice of life and at least one sample would really help sell how to build them.
Not to mention the other angels with stats already printed any player has access and can read. This is the ST book, and I think we deserve some exclusive and really different types to surprise our players.
Give us some creepy, weird, surprising and inspiring antagonists.
Yes. Bans and banes //please//.
I’ll see about adding more on bans and banes.
While I have your attention, can we see hunter angels from different incarnations? We all have a pretty good idea of how a Destroyer Angel might stalk its prey (kill, mash, destroy) but how about a Messenger hunter who uses propaganda, misinformation and deception against it’s target? Or a Psycopomp who attacks by laying traps and using stealth?
I love the shards section, especially the modern cyberpunk theme. I’m also a huge fan of the “monster of the week” antagonist section. One of my only complaints about nWoD books in general, is that the antagonist books tend to be too specific, describing a specific individual, rather than a general monster that I can drop in as a minion or one off antagonist.
Oh man – the “biblical time period” sounds awesome. I would want to play/run that in a heartbeat 🙂
I’d hope Changeling crossover stuff addresses Pact/Pledge interaction (insert scene of detailed contract negotiation between Demon and Changeling).
Also there’s the issues of Demons in the Hedge, the Shadow, and the Underworld that previous crossover books addressed for other Supernaturals! Obviously those can take Changeling, Werewolf, and Geist slots….
And Inferno demonology, and the Lucifuge remain the elephants in the room of any Demon crossover discussion!
Second for adding Inferno demonology ( and Emyprean angelology ) and for Lucifuge crossover issues. 😉
The crossover chapter is probably going to be at a broader setting level, rather than combining specific subsystems. We’re capped at around 2.5k per line, and with that in mind, we’ll probably only have room for the core eight, so no Inferno or Immortals.
The Lucifuge might get addressed in the Hunter section, but their writeup in the demon chapter of Mortal Remains sets the pattern for most of their relationship with demons.
I’m very disappointed that gameline called Demon won’t have any info on crossover with literal Hell realm. 🙁
Too be fair here, this book does have a limited word count. So it makes sense only the major game lines get addressed. In a perfect world the mini-splats introduced in stand alone “core” books would get a say too.
All in all though, I find Inferno/Empyrean stuff thematically very, very different from Descent anyway (ones about vice and sin, the other about free will and hiding). So it would be one of the harder ones to incorporate in any case.
Also maybe its just me but I just don’t get peoples continual referencing of the Empyrean side bar in Inferno in the context of Demon. Its an optional rule/fluff piece in a core WoD book from the previous edition. Sure its a idea with some merit, but I don’t think it warrants the level of attention that it receives within the context of Descent.
Just my 2p on that though.
It’s going to be pretty different though from the perspective of the Unchained, since while Hunters, including the Lucifuge, may conflate different types of “demons” together (as that chapter does), the Unchained aren’t going to make that mistake, and should be able to tell the difference between Lucifuge and their own demon-blooded descendents, which means the Lucifuge and the Inferno demons are going to raise a lot of weird questions for them (“Wait… they have a whole hell dimension free of God… and they want to get OUT?!”)
This is awesome stuff. I’m especially looking forward to the section on designing Ciphers, the section on the tales Demons tell each other, and the Biblical era.
Well, just from this outline I’m sold on this book from the Antagonist (more Angels and expanded Angel rules = Good thing, so happy we are getting a proper Agent Bullet Dodge Numina :P) and Crossover chapters (Strix interacting with the MACHINE…scary is the only word that comes to mind). Further Cypher ST advice to supplement the useful player driven additions to the core material from Flowers too actually (still have trouble wrapping my head around some of the design aspects).
Still the biggest surprise for me (and a very welcome one) is the modern cyberpunk setting. Referencing Dark City, Stand Alone Complex, Dues Ex and Mirrors Edge all within a few sentences make me pay attention (reads like a list of some of my favorite media, but then the inspirations section in the Demon Core did too).
Further fascinated by the idea of “improved” Stigmatic that are PC material as Demon Hunters. Interesting to see how GM cybernetics is going to be modeled by Embeds and Exploits. Are some new ones going to be written up especially for these Stigmatic Hunters I wonder? Will they function on the same rules? Will some be considered “always on” if they take the form of implants?
I’m already tempted to port them across to the default Demon setting as God Machine run Hunter group that can be more dangerous then your average Stigmatic, Clockwork Thrall or Cultist, but still an order of magnitude below a full blown Hunter-Killer Angel. Would be nice to have a middle-ground without just throwing in a low-rank Angel.
Biblical setting has potential. Certainly would like to hear how it might tie into other games with a historical focus such as Vampire and Mummy (nice to see a Demonically influenced nation as a rival to Irem).
Some of these [Redacted] also make me very curious, particularly the one or two in the Crossover section.
Out of just a bit of curiosity on my part any plans on including anything further on the Celebrants from the God Machine Chronicle story seed “This is Hell”? They seemed like a good antithesis to certain aspects of the GM, but their methods and end goals would not exactly win them many friends among the majority of the Unchained I think. Perhaps in the “Urban Legends” section?
This sounds great so far and I love the “fuck it, it’s 2 AM, no better time to start.” line.
Could we get some details on Angels having a personality? I find it hard to imagine how they would be anything other than mindless drones for the Machine yet I’ve seen examples of them having just as much personality as anyone else.
Will Satan or Lucifer be in this? I would love it if you made them 2 seperate entities but if you could atleast cover one it would be nice.
If a Hunter can use the cybernetic equivalent of Embeds and Exploits, they’re more powerful than most Hunter-Killer Angels. Just look at The Brilliant, “the angel sent in when other angels fail”. He can’t inflict or heal aggravated damage.
I haven’t read “This is Hell”, but some kind of Demon antagonists would be welcome.
Yeah because a human with a few embeds is more powerful then the suit of base-line abilities that an Angel gets for just being an Angel.
Like the general level of unkillability, downgrading mundane damage when manifested and the ability to change phase states into twilight.
Don’t even get me started on Influences. Since they are basically ratified Mage arcarna.
Angels have the same baseline abilities every other spirit has. They’re actually weaker in going into twilight. No one thinks werewolves or mages are overwhelmed by them. As for Influences, they’re no where near Mage Arcana.
Looks delicious. Shards? Oh, you shouldn’t have. I need to incorporate this into my campaign city, maybe a “Midnight Hour” mechanic where unlucky or unwary Demons are dragged into State Machine and need to find their way out.
Fear Tomorrow: This looks like the premise of the Word and the Void Trilogy of Terry Brooks. Was this an influence?
This looks delightful, and the wait is going to be torture.
What I don’t see is Cryptids. Which is perfectly fine, the deserve their own supplement.
There probably won’t be any cryptids in this book, no, unless they’re in the urban legends chapter.
The shards should be fun. I’ve recruited writers for two out of the three.
This awesome…how can we increase the word count for this book? because I don’t want these wonderful ideas limited, if it can be avoided.
Sounds really cool, some stuff I would really want included is a lucid dead style numina for exiled angels, either in the angel stuff or the various hells bit, since becoming an angel that is still a person is a possible hell goal.
Maybe a mention of what happens to a possessing angel when they fall, since they don’t really have a cover.
I have a feeling this comes under REDACTED but some mythology surrounding Lucifer and other famous demons would be good…and famous Angels too like Gabriel etc.
Like the biblical setting, should be able to use ideas in this for Demon set in other time periods.
Demon theories about what the God Machine’s purpose is and where is came from might be good too.
Do angels get gadgets? I know they were detailed in the players guide but do angels/servants of the God Machine get their own little toys to play with?
Oh and number stations. Saw them in Fringe and thought they were cool. Have they already popped up in Demon?
Finally how cypher can relate to your descent into Hell
Numbers stations are a favorite of mine.
Now what would be cool is if you could could write an SAS that uses one of those number station recordings as a prop that the storyteller has to play for his players and they have to decode it for clues to the rest of the story. Pick a creepy one (like one with a little girls voice).
Oh, a thought about the blade runnerish cyberpunk hack, how about giving heirs to hell a shout out in it?
It seems to me that the God-Machine harvesting samples to grow hellblooded characters to hunt their own aunts and uncles would seem to fit right in.
“All angel and Exile rules should fit within the Ephemeral framework established in the core and GMC. We’re not rewriting the rules on how to create antagonists, just supplementing them in ways that bring out the flavor of our game.”
The trouble with that is nothing below 6+ rank in that framework can match demons Going Loud (and briefly re-attaining the power they had as angels is the justification for Going Loud’s existence). Even if Numina matching Exploits exist, they should be restricted to 4+ rank ala Resurrection and Raise Dead.
“The difference is that while demon powers are exploiting back doors in reality, the Numina employed by angels and Exiles have authority — they’re going in with the root password and access to all the documentation.” You’ve said that before, but it just doesn’t match with the actual powers. Embeds are free, an advantage over almost all Numina. Exploits usually cost less too. “This is the home for powers that turn the city’s infrastructure (small ‘i’) against demons with red lights and power outages. It’s the home for powers that turn escape routes into dead ends. It’s the home for Agent-dodging from The Matrix. It’s the home for every city-hacking mission solution Watchdogs promised in the 2012 E3 trailer.” Those are nice, but how do they compare to Frozen In Time, Solitary Confinement, The Word, etc? The Demons look like the ones with root access.
“The Espionage Genre” The problem is the game has gone from LeCarre or even Fleming into Jason Bourne style superheroics.
The most obvious antagonists aren’t mentioned: other Demons. Agendas are specifically stated as not fighting each other. There are mentions of Compromised Agencies and Inter-Agency conflict, but no concrete examples. In a game patterned after espionage, where are the moles? Surely the insane antagonist in the “How an Angel Dies” isn’t unique. What about groups of Demons who want to conquer the world, or think the best way to stop the God-Machine is by destroying civilization.or humanity itself? Are there Demons who think the Moscow’s soul trade is abhorrent and try to stop it? (Why doesn’t everyone else agree, BTW?)
“Finally, you may introduce new Embeds and Exploits at the end of the chapter for coping with these other creatures — but don’t make them straight I-win-against-this-monster-type powers. Stay creative and tricky in the style of the existing Embeds and Exploits.” The trouble is, the existing Embeds and Exploits can count as straight I-win powers. No one even pretends game balance exists between the lines. Making them specific to other creatures is even worse. Will the other creatures likewise have powers introduced to cope with Demons? The most common interaction I’ve seen is “Demon wins”.
Have you actually ever used the Angel creation rules to make an original non-prestated Hunter-Killer angel?
You can come up with dice pools, influences and numina that will mop the floor with most starting character Demons as low as Rank 3. I’ve once included a Rank 5 Angel that my entire player group has continually fled from after the one time they actually got into a fight with him and lost two NPC allies and nearly died.
I really don’t know where your getting this idea that Angels are under powered. Maybe some the example ones given are a bit on the lightweight side, but its hardly an endemic problem to the system that lets you build Angels.
As for the Crossover issue. Considering you can pretty much screw up a demon by pointing a private investigator at them and watching their cover dissolve, I don’t think that Demons exactly have an “I Win” status compared with several other creatures that just don’t have anywhere that level of fragility in their base existence (Changelings being the only ones I can think of off the top of my head).
“Strix for Vampire, True Fae for Changeling, [REDACTED].”
The only thing I can think of that might need to be redacted is something for Beast. (I know, I know, I might think that but you couldn’t possibly comment.)
My primary wish for this book is a fat, juicy section on qashmallim that I can really sink my teeth into. I’ve wanted to know their place in the context of Demon since before the game released.
Other than that, I’m really, really excited for those setting shards. I’ve loudly clamored for more of those for every line, and those in this book all sound fantastic. This honestly sounds like one hell of a product; I can’t wait to get my hands on it.
Really eager to read the Cipher section!!!
I only read once the corebook, and I had a hard time understanding the importance of the Cipher and the vision of Hell a Demon has.
Is it the Truth (with a big ‘T’) or more a philosophical path that the Demon should follow?
Can you give more details in the book about :
-Inferno demons and the WoD cosmology through the Demon view
-God machine possibles objectives and origins
-Play Stigmatics “the stigmatic campaign”
Please?
Thinking about where the Satan Signal might fit into those redactions is going to occupy me for weeks.
Any chance that the section on angels might discuss the idea of ‘angelic forms’? It’s another (really evocative) thing strongly implied by the fluff and by demon powers that is a bit wibbly-wobbly to implement with the mechanics.
So Does the Biblical Setting apply a god-machine “tone” to the “mythical” locations of the ancient middle-east or does it take biblical history and make it a result of the god-machine’s influence? Basically if the setting is meant to be the “real world” of The Bible through the eyes of demons or Demonic Fantasy that just happens to take during the events of the bible.
I have to say this book sounds absolutely amazing. I love the Shards and the attention given to Angels, also a Crossover section is always nice to have. Happy to get more on the Exiles as well. And the chapter on Hell’s is something I kinda missed in the Core so I cannot really express how excited I am to finally get it. A whole chapter focusing on the Cipher is also nice as creating a bunch of these for each game makes for a lot of workload for the ST, also hopefully it gives us something more about the Final Truth other than it is a line from a fortune cookie.
Now as for my concerns.
Angel Chapter will suffer a bit in my opinion from the fact that it is done purely from an NPC standpoint. Also it might suffer a bit from the existing rules on Angels but that is neither here nor there as some things were set down long before this. Most of the time any splat done from purely NPC point of view ends up a bit bland and weak on actual substance, leaving them to look more like a monster of the week than interesting antagonists or influences that could be used long term. In most games these sort of NPC only splats end up as cardboard enemies and PC splats tend to get to be the long term real Antagonists.
So to put it shortly a bit more PC flair on them would be nice.
This also extends heavily to Exiles whom are done mostly through Angelic rules if I understood correctly and they should, in my humble opinion, be an PC splat instead of being NPC’s only.
Demon the Fallen for cWoD used to have complete rules for creating Earthbound as PC’s even though they were Tormented alien mindsetted creatures more reminiscent of Cthulhu Mythos than anything else so I would think it wouldn’t be unreasonable to have Exiles as PC’s or even Angels for that matter. Being able to start from Angel PC’s and playing through the Fall into their Descent and perhaps even finding Hell would be rather awesome after all.
Crossover Chapter is nice to have but this sounds absolutely horrid to my ears “Give us these concepts as if they were part of the Demon line from day one. Don’t make them unrecognizable, but cast them in the light of Descent rather than trying to negotiate crossover mechanics on even terms.” Why? Because it suggest that these “Crossover” rules do not help me one bit in integrating these other lines into my DtD game since they are not actual crossover rules but rather conversions of certain beings into DtD line’s mechanics. The other lines do not need a new Demon styled paint jobs but some actual Crossover rules could be helpful. And yes usually crossovers can be done by winging it but since we are getting a Crossover Chapter it would be nice to have it be of some use so that one wouldn’t need to do it in the same improvisational style as in cWoD.
That it for most of my concerns so I’ll end this with a more happy note.
Giants in the Earth Shard sounds beyond awesome. Not only an historical setting but a historical setting with world shattering, or at least trembling, power. And the best thing is that from the looks of it Demons, Angels and the God-Machine all keep their sci-fi tech looks, judging from the comment that GM uses nuclear power etc.