So it’s the last day of November. The calm before the storm (or Firestorm, as depicted by Sam Araya in this gorgeous full-page illustration from Promethean 2nd Edition).
December looks like it is going to be just crazy, so here a few points about next month that I want to share (these came out of our talks today, in case you think I really don’t take notes each week):
1- If you haven’t yet ordered any PoD books from DTRPG, I suggest you do so this week ASAP if you want them by Christmas. Our PoD proofs are taking longer than usual to get made and shipped, so fair warned and all that.
2- We’ll be starting the Deluxe Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary KS next week, we hope. There are always a lot of moving pieces to these things, but that’s the target. It will stretch through into early January and should be just crazy as the last of the “Big Five” 20th Anniversary books.
3- Our friends at WWPublishing/Paradox will be at a convention in Germany around the 12th of the month and expect to have a bunch of announcements to make that folks will, I think, be pretty excited about. Another excellent talk with them last week, although it was all hush-hush business stuff, which included a commitment to making sure we are all in communication about what is announced and how.
4- We’re planning on starting our 12 Days of Onyx Christmas lead up to the holiday a day or two after that and right though to the 25th. Expect some sort of sale will be a part of all that between us and DTRPG.
Plus, with our approval process getting ironed out and several cool books in PoD proofing, we should have a few eagerly awaited releases popping up in December. So, it’s busy here, nevermind all the ongoing projects.
In addition to the above, Eddy and I discussed Pugmire trademarks and copyrights (and the differences between the two), and why a friend promising to kill a guy who has attacked one of us on the internet isn’t really the best answer to our social media woes. Or anyone’s, really. Appreciate the depth of feeling, but adding in your willingness to “put them in the ground” only makes the whole exchange nastier, and might open up legal ramifications if anything actually happens to the original nasty person. This also applies to dissing somebody else’s work online in defense of ours, actually.
We also talked at length about how “open” we want our own gamelines and worlds to be in terms of letting other folks write up and post stuff. I’m thinking closer to how I hear Savage Worlds does it with approved projects, than a full-on OGL, but we realized that neither of us have ever actually been in the position to even consider the options as WW had a set policy. So we will continue to chat about this.
And finally, for those of you who have missed my reporting on the way he and I discuss our media interests, we talked about this last week’s episode of Doctor Who. Truly a bravura performance by Peter Capaldi as the 12th-ish Doctor.
Not really used to adding “spoiler alert”, but after not writing one of these and you not reading one for a while, consider the warning given!
I was gratified and enraptured to see Capaldi really run with a script that gave him something to tear into, and which held together as many of Moffat’s puzzle-boxes haven’t for a while. Eddy loved how Moffat was showing and not telling and getting in huge amounts of info in small moments, like how the lights in the Tardis dim and relight as the Doctor goes through his “changes”.
We talked about the way the 12th Doctor had all last season of working his way through mannerisms and attitudes of the earlier ones, and the settings and structures of stories from those eras, which was a fair bit longer than I liked, but which culminated in this season with the guitar and sonic sunglasses. A different sort of Doctor indeed, and Eddy suggests one showing all the signs, up until this last episode, of a mid-life crisis.
For me, I can really relate to a Doctor who spends several billion years punching through a diamond wall. Let me tell you about trying to get the OK for the Book of Nod, or Adventure!, some day, or delivering the Exalted 3rd PDF to backers!
Punchin’ through to December!
BLURBS!
SALES!
Today, Cyber-Monday, DTRPG will have the W20 Book of the Wyrm PDF also 50% off!
Expect something special on Dec 25th, as we lead up through the 12 Days of Onyx Christmas, coming next month!
KICKSTARTER!
Coming in December…the Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Deluxe Edition Kickstarter!
ON SALE!
M20 How Do You DO That? is coming to DTRPG in PDF and PoD versions!
Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition PDF & Standard and Premium PoD physical book editions are NOW AVAILABLE on DTRPG! http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/149562/Mage-the-Ascension-20th-Anniversary-Edition
The Pugmire Pamphlet we had available at Gen Con is now ready for PDF download. Read about the world of Pugmire from the enthusiastic and optimistic pen of Princess Yosha Pug, as well as notes from the gruff and worldly hunter Pan Daschund: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/153518/Pugmire-Gen-Con-Brochure
There are also six Pugmire posters available as free PDFs or $.99 physical posters, suitable for framing:
- Spike Mutt: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150845/Spike-Mutt-Pugmire-Poster-6
- Pan Dachshund: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150844/Pan-Dachshund-Pugmire-Poster-5
- Jack Rat-Terrier: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150944/Jack-RatTerrier-Pugmire-Poster-4
- Sgt. Leo Bulldog: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150843/Sgt-Leo-Bulldog-Pugmire-Poster-3
- Princess Yosha Pug: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/149750/Princess-Yosha-Pug-Pugmire-Poster-2
- Sister Picassa Collie: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/148516/Sister-Picassa-Collie-Pugmire-Poster-1
Start spreading the Code of Man!
CONVENTIONS!
We’re one of the Contributing Sponsors at Midwinter Con this year this January in Milwaukee! RichT, Fast Eddy Webb, and Newlywed Neall Raemonn Price will be there at our booth as well as running demo games of Scion and Pugmire. We’ll be talking more about panels, but I think you can count on a Pugmire one and a Scion/StoryPath System one, at least. In the meantime, check out the show here: http://www.midwintergamingconvention.com/
And now, the new project status updates!
First Draft (The first phase of a project that is about the work being done by writers, not dev prep)
- M20 Book of Secrets (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Exalted 3rd Novel by Matt Forbeck (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- CtL anthology (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition
- Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes (Beast: the Primordial)
- Scion: Alpha (Scion 2nd Edition Playtest Alpha Slice)
- Dagger of Spiragos (Scarred Lands)
- EX3 Quickstart (Exalted 3rd Edition)
Redlines
- Mummy Fiction Anthology (Mummy: the Curse)
- Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anniversary Edition
- Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition, featuring the Huntsmen Chronicle (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- V20 Ready Made Characters (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Cavaliers of Mars
- Signs of Sorcery (Mage: the Awakening Second Edition)
Second Draft
- Arms of the Chosen (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- The Realm (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Dragon-Blooded (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- WtF The Pack (Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition)
- Beckett’s Jyhad Diary (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- WtA Kinfolk (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
Development
- StoryPath System Rules (Base rules set for Scion and the Trinity Continuum)
- W20 Changing Ways (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- nWoD Hurt Locker (World of Darkness 2nd Edition)
- VtM Lore of the Bloodlines (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Dark Eras Companion (nWod Dark Eras)
- W20 Shattered Dreams (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Beast Fiction Anthology (Beast: the Primordial)
- Beast Ready Made Characters (Beast: the Primordial)
Editing
- W20 Pentex Employee Indoctrination Handbook (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Dark Eras Expansions (nWod Dark Eras)
- Secrets of the Covenants (Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition)
- Scarred Lands Player’s Guide: Ghelspad (Scarred Lands 2nd Edition)
Post-Editing Development:
- Cursed Necropolis: Rio (Mummy: the Curse)
- V20 Ghouls (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- V20 Black Hand: Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- M20 Anthology (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
ART DIRECTION FROM MIRTHFUL MIKE:
In Art Direction
- V20 Ghouls – Awaiting text.
- W20 Shattered Dreams – Awaiting artnotes for Ch. 5.
- Mage: the Awakening Second – Art just about all in.
- Promethean: the Created Second – Art just about all in.
- Scarred Lands PG – contracted.
- Dark Eras – Contracting that this week.
- Pugmire Early Access – contracted.
In Layout
- Dreams of Avarice – in proofing.
- Demon STG – Sending out second proof on Monday due to last minute Beast stuff on Wednesday.
- Guide to the Black Hand – Working on it.
- NWoD 2 – At Paradox for approval.
- NWoD 2 Cards – Once NWoD 2 is done.
- Clan Novel Assamite (PoD and epub update) – Awaiting PoD files to clear.
- Clan Novel Ventrue (PoD and epub update) – Proofing.
Proofing
- Ex 3 Anthology – Awaiting formatted file.
- Beast: The Primordial – Got notes on errata.
- Ex 3 core book – From RichT: Devs working on notating changes to a clean PDF to send to me and Maria for review. Art corrections are in progress. Unique Charm Compilation Reward backers continue to send in their ideas for the Charms that the team will be creating for them – today is the deadline! Get them sent in, please.
At Press
- M20 – Deluxes printing (Screen is finished and awaiting book).
- M20 How Do You Do That ?!? – Waiting for PoD proof.
- V20 Lore of the Clans – PoD uploaded and awaiting proofs.
Special- projects on hold in the art and production area until an external factor is resolved
- Wraith 20 – Can’t go further until art notes come in, still being developed by Rich Dansky.
- Pentex Employee Indoctrination Manual – Some added and amended text needs to come in.
TODAY’S REASON TO DRINK: A post-holiday digestif might be in order. Perhaps a limoncello. Then, back to work!
Comments
73 responses to “Through a Diamond Wall to December [Monday Meeting Notes]”
I hope Shards of the Exalted Dream re-appears on sale. I missed it during the Halloween sales and kicked myself for a week.
Super stoked about Firestorm and the possibility of OP/WW doing and OGL-ish thing.
I can’t wait for Dark Eras either.
Just to clarify, the more open “modding” thing is only something Onyx Path is looking at. I have no idea if White Wolf Publishing would ever consider that option viable for the WW IPs.
Yes, why DON’T you tell us about your difficulties in getting the Exalted 3 PDF out to backers? I’m sure we’d all love to hear it.
Well, if you are a backer, then you had a pretty long running commentary through the Updates as to how things went. In general, and for non-backers, if something could go wrong, it did.
dont you just love Murphy’s Law.
Not so much. We generally plan for some issues to delay things, but not all the issues, all the time.
i watched that episode,4 times since it airded. Peter Capaldi may be the greatest actor alive today.
It was a shining moment for him, for sure. One of the few recent ones (Orient Express and the 50th were others) that I’m looking forward to rewatching.
I guess I’ll be waiting for the Demon STG next weekish. Looking forward to it.
I wouldn’t anticipate it for next week, no.
I have a very fluid perception of time.
Looks like you guys have been staying busy…hope Thanksgiving was a good one for everyone on staff, and be sure to stop to breathe around Christmas!
With the way the lore has been over the years, officially-sanctioned sounds like the best option if you guys go for it; that way OP retains at least some ‘this sounds like a really bad idea…’ control for cohesion’s sake, without being required to pass on the ‘this thing our players are doing is too cool to not make canon’ moments.
That’s my current thinking as well. The Trinity Continuum, in particular, is set up in such a way that having other folks fill in different slices of the Continuum makes sense, but not willy-nilly or we have all kinds of overlapping time periods. A little of that is good for the timey-whimey anything could happen feel of the Continuum, but too much is just confusing.
Good call. I haven’t played in that universe since college, that’d be a good one for the “Hey, that was cool, can we make that canon?” treatment.
My big fear with the full OGL treatment is that it means giving up editorial consent…no opportunity to review to make sure it’s a good fit with what you’re doing in-house.
Huh huh huh ctd20. I’m looking forward to this so much. Now I remember seeing that there was a plan to have either 13-15 kiths in the book as default playable. I’m guessing this includes the stuff from the original ctd players guide. However what I want to know is if the menehene will see some love. Stretch goal potential maybe?
I can’t wait to see what crazy-cool stretch goals there are going to be!
What’s that a holographic bunk deck you say? And it’s a limited edition ks reward? So much cool stuff could be done.
Yes, although not that idea. 🙂
Me either. But what if banality took over and we didn’t do any stretch goals? Would you still back the Deluxe book?
Welp Rich is clearly a Dauntain. Is run screaming into a wild Pooka burrow and permanent bedlam before I’d consider such banality talk.
Oh yeah, even without a holo bunk deck. 20 years later with the rampant explosion of technology I’m real curious to see what you guys do with concordia. In my head I have this real pretty leather bound book of fairy tales for ctd 20, and that’s something my shelf wants right by my old hard backs of oz and wonderland.
13 kiths, the original corebook nine and four from the supplements – selkies, piskies, etc.
The original players’ guide didn’t add any new Kithain, but it did cover 13 Nunnehi families – might be what you’re thinking of. In C20, the Nunnehi are initially set to be covered as part of the Gallain.
What are the odds of seeing Dreams of Avarice before year’s end?
That’s up to Colin and when he returns notes on the proof.
Any chance that Mage Second Edition will be released before Christmas? Thanks.
Stranger things have happened, and we’d love it to be, but doubtful.
So do Promethean and Mage 2E still have to go through approval, or did they do that already with CCP?
They still need to.
“Our friends at WWPublishing/Paradox will be at a convention in Germany around the 12th of the month and expect to have a bunch of announcements to make that folks will, I think, be pretty excited about.”
Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 2.
Confirmed.
A bloodline is like half a clan, and undeath is a sort of supernatural life… and this would theoretically be a 3rd Vampire PC game…
Vampire Redemption 2
You could say it was a fifty-percent sentient thirdquel, to put it in laymans terms.
Yessssssss. You see it, too. : )
Riiiiight. No leaping to conclusions there. 🙂
: P
For the record, Adventure! was really the only of the Aeon/Trinity series I ever got into. I’m really glad you got it put out there.
I’m also looking forward to the new Trinity series.
Also stoked for the Changeling 20 KS. I wonder if my friends have forgiven me for playing a Pooka that one time.
Awesome! Good to hear, and folks entering the Trinity line as a whole was why it was important to get Adventure! out there.
That’s an awesome piece of art at the top of the page.
Also, glad to know about the C20 KS. I don’t think I’ll be able to participate this time but it’ll be worth watching.
Sure, see what it’s all about and we’ll love to have you involved however you can be. Tell your friends! 🙂
I’m interested in backing Changeling: The Dreaming. The other 20th Anniversary books have been excellent so far, regardless of delays and it is worth the wait.
I would hope that Changeling has bit more international flavour than the original, however, as it was very US/Concordia-centric. I think maybe later supplements helped, but I’m not sure.
The other thing is to ask whether other Classic 20th Anniversary books will be revisited as Add-Ons during the campaign? I do have the POD versions already, but you never know.
C20, like Wraith20, is looking at being a blend of nostalgia and new edition. Expect some wider ranging viewpoints. If you are asking if we’ll be reprinting Deluxe other20s as part of the C20 KS, then the answer is no. We had to do entire other KSs in order to be able to afford printing those other Deluxes, there’s no way a stretch goal could cover them.
I loose track of what I’ve posted here and what I’ve posted elsewhere, but this both exhilarates me and is honestly scary. Changeling was always one of my favorite games, but so much of what I loved a lot of WoDers didn’t see. I know people who think it’s nothing but World of Stormy Pinkness and then I have other friends who think it’s the darkest game in the line.
For me the tension between the bright shining creative world of the fae, and the nihilistic themes associated with watching that beauty die are what make Changeling a World of Darkness game. I felt like those dark themes and their resonance with people’s real lives as opposed to fantastic horror were always challenging. The core book had almost none of the nihilism (which was part of why a lot of players never saw it) and even the supplements often missed the mark. (The Shadow Court captured that nihilism better than any other text in it’s opening fiction and then almost completely ignored what it created in the fiction for the rest of the book).
I really think C20 could catapult Changeling to a higher level in the World of Darkness then it’s ever been in before if all of this strange balancing act is represented in a singular text, which is why I’m so excited. The fact that it has to be something that in many ways has no precedent in the previous line is what’s nerve wracking.
I’ve been watching a lot of Matt’s other work like Beast (The dream themes there really caught my attention because he’s heading C20) and Dark Ages Fae and I honestly think he’s probably the best person to strike that completely new yet totally nostalgic balance. I think the tension between wanting nostalgia and total innovation has actually made me more excited for C20 than M20 (my most played WoD game to date)
Aww, everytime I see Wraith 20 under “On Hold” I die a little more inside :'(
Remember, that is just the progress in Production. RichD continues to work hard on the writing and development.
Yep. The bulk of Wraith20 is up there in the Redlines section. And if you’ve been following Rich (@RDansky) on Twitter, you’ll see he’s been diligently working on it. I’ve retweeted a lot of it to the Onyx Path account.
I can’t stop being anxious about the Paradox thing until we hear something concrete. bleh. I’m not sure I realized how much more staid and adult the Onyx Path stewardship of nWoD and those wonderful revised Conventionbooks felt until the possibility of losing it came to be. if WoD ever reverts to that adolescent kitchen sink “rule of cool” mode that it was under WW…all of my bleh.
I’m not sure that “staid” is a compliment, really. I think our crew rock in both the “cool” and “well-written” departments, as well as in “twisted” and “scary” and “adult” and “well-integrated” and “diverse”.
First of all, superlative work on that Promethean piece. It’s very engaging, makes me feel as though they have some magnitude of influence in the world, which is an element I think may have been missing from the first game.
Second, more trifling schedule questions. When projects go beyond post-edit-development, it takes a while to confirm those projects in Art Direction/Layout. Are there inherent reasons why, beyond the clerical? We’ve seen that some art/layout development occurs while projects are in development or even draft, so how is confirming this stage after all development finishes more evasive?
Also, some projects, such as the Book of Oblivion pre-Gencon or currently WtF: the Pack take a while to add to Current Projects even if they are actively drafted or developed. We’ve seen that individual devs/dev teams are responsible for updating the staff of Onyx Path, so how do these updates filter into the official list, beyond the projects being updated on Wednesdays?
Thank you for your consideration
I have not seen the gap you are referring to between Post Edit Dev and art&Layout. Most of the time, projects are started in art direction as the books go into editing. Mirthful Mike even cheerfully posts things like “Waiting for art notes” when that doesn’t happen in a timely manner. Sometimes we get certain pieces we’ll need before editing but rarely. And I don’t know what you mean by “evasive”, sorry.
Updates come from their teams on a weekly basis to Rollickin’ Rose Bailey, who assembles the disparate info in time for our Monday Meeting of the Onyx Path crew.
Ah, I suppose I used “evasive” as though it were interchangeable with “elusive”. My apologies. And I was unaware Project updates now take place on a different day.
I take what’s listed above in the Monday Meeting blog and will typically update the progress bars on the Current Projects page (after the week’s releases) on Wednesdays, if that’s what you mean.
OK, elusive makes sense there. Thanks!
What has happened to Pugmire? Me and my girlfriend were hoping to get it for Christmas this year, as the date for release was to have been this November (or did we miss read the article?). 🙁
Don’t know which article you’re referring to, but you can follow the progress of our projects every week in my Monday Meeting Notes blog, so you aren’t brought up short with where projects are. Frex, we started talking last month about the Pugmire demos happening at Midwinter con, and the Kickstarter happening late January. Hope that helps!
Yeah, not sure which article that was, but Pugmire the complete game was always intended as a 2016-ish release. I had hoped to have the Kickstarter by the end of the year (maybe that’s what you’re thinking of?), but as you probably guess, the last few months have been pretty insane. However, as Rich mentions, we’re planning to have that Kickstarter in January, along with the release of an early access version for backers to play! Hope that helps!
Perhaps they misunderstood the Gen Con materials stating “Early Access: Fall 2015”.
Pugmire’s Early Access document is, of course, not the final game.
Any news yet on what’s going to be in The Pack?
Pack…stuff? More specific info should come from Stew Wilson soon. Thanks!
Any chance on getting Ex3 or Arms or DBs out before the end of Jan. I have a birthday to shop for
We’re pushing hard on EX3 right now, so “maybe” for that.
So I just went to the M20 KS page and tallied up the backers and it appears there will be just under three thousand deluxe versions to be printed to fill the backers orders. So rounding off to 3000, how many are being produced by the printers each day? If we know that we can extrapolate when they will be done and ready to ship. I hope I’m not annoying you guys too much, but I really want to know when we’ll be getting our deluxe version:)
Of course, I understand your excitement. Still, these sorts of numerical breakdowns never really catch how the books are manufactured. It’s never x number of books a day, it’s more organic than that and very stop and start. Presses need tweaking and fixing, glues need refilling and unsticking; it’s generally not helpful for those not doing the work to run that sort of estimate.
Missed Thanksgiving update since I was on vacation.
I’m thankful that OPP folks have been transparent and communicative and generally talkative about what you’re publishing. I hope that won’t have to change with Paradox in charge.
Also thankful that I finally have a place (online) where I can actually play WW/OP games for the first time in my life.
I don’t think that aspect will change. While there may be more things behind the scenes I can’t go into as their connections to other media bear fruit, the Open Dev Process and other ways we talk about our projects should go on as we have. Might even be more open depending on how much the new WW wants to join in talking!
I’m eagerly waiting on a finished proofreading of Ex 3 Core. I wanna check if the stuff I found with the first version is all fixed, report anything that isn’t, and do further checking and reading.
Uhm, things’re going fast! Any news on the “Tome of Secrets” for V20 Dark Ages?
I am similarly very interested in this text. I didn’t get in on the kickstarter, because I’m so happy with the rules in V20, and my ancient to modern game was just moving into the 1800’s when that KS happened so I knew I wasn’t going to use the text for much. However the later stretch goals were interesting and I was hoping on picking up a copy of the Tomb of Secrets when it hit POD.
I’m looking forward to seeing revised Hsien. The original Hsien had no connection to the Dreaming and no reason to interact with changelings more than any other supernatural splat.
I actually have very mixed feelings on the Hsien being in the core book. I love them thematically. Their magic system is kind of borderline unplayable. It has an awesome core to it. It just felt like it was pushed out the door without playtesting or polish.
I really don’t want them to be turned into a normal kith. They aren’t Fae, they shouldn’t be Fae, and if they are somehow folded into normal arts and realms I’m going to be kind of disappointed. At the same time I can’t imagine fixing and playtesting their magic system as just a portion of the C20 game. I’d much rather see them in a future supplement. I’d love to see them mentioned and talked about from a cultural standpoint, but I think system wise they belong on C20 about as much as the Kuei-Jin belong in V20.
Now all of that said, if they do cleanup the Alchemy system and make it playable and totally develop it out in C20 I will be super thrilled. I think that’s a crazy high bar and I don’t want them to be half done and then never fleshed out in a future book, but if that crazy bar is met then you will hear no complaints from me.
I certainly don’t want them turned into a normal Kith, and they won’t be. They are mentioned as Gallain in the teaser for C20. At the same time, they shouldn’t be totally disconnected from the Dreaming and have no resemblance to Fae. The Dreaming is the dimension of dreams and can’t work completely differently in Asia or not spawn Fae creatures in Asia.
And this is where I have mixed feelings. I agree with you in principle, but I actually like where the Hsien fall in the Asian mythology that was created. Arcadia and the Dreaming are very disconnected things in the other parts of the world, even in mythic times they were a place separate. The Hsien were always an integral part of the larger Asian supernatural society. They played an integrated role in protecting the dragon nests. I don’t really want that to be gone. I love the Hsien, but I don’t love them as a Changeling property. I want them to be the fallen demigods they’re written up as. That bit in Land of 8 Million Dreams where the Hsien think it’s adorable that Changelings think they’re related is always the “reliable narration” in my chronicles.
I’m sure they’ll still be integrated with the other Asian supernaturals, like the Hengeyokai still are. The Changelings are fallen demigods too.
Well let me just say I don’t ever want to see glamour, banality, or arts on their character sheets. If they tighten the narrative up and make them somewhat similar there then cool that’s fine, but they invoke very different mythic themes than Changelings in a lot of ways and I wouldn’t want to see that change.