Next up for Lore of the Clans are the Tremere, written by Andrew Peregrine. Here’s the link to the Google Doc:
Edit: Link removed now that open development is closed. Thank you!
Andrew ran out of wordcount just about everywhere, and has left notes on topics he thinks he should cover. I have some thoughts on how to revise the material and which of those topics to include, but I want to know what you think. I’ll close comments on this one on Tuesday, September 9th. I’ll put a big note on the document when I close it so it’s clear.
A few things to keep in mind, as always:
Keep calm and carry on: This is a preliminary draft. Things will likely change between this draft and the final book. If you see something weird or that you don’t agree with, don’t freak out. Just comment on the concerning area, and I’ll look into it. Certainly don’t give the writer shit for it or claim they don’t know what they’re talking about. There’s a possibility that we have something else in mind and it’s just not coming through.
Comments only: Everyone (except me) is restricted to comments only. Don’t bother editing the document, unless it’s because the text is unclear (see below). Don’t resolve someone else’s comments or mine, but feel free to discuss whatever makes sense. Please keep it civil, though, even if you disagree. If a particular conversation is going off-course, I’ll shut it down.
Substance over style: I’m focusing purely on the content, not punctuation or grammar. That kind of refinement of the material will happen in a later draft. Don’t worry too much about commenting on those concerns, unless such an error makes the material confusing to understand.
Cards close to my chest: Because I don’t want to bias the discussion, I’m keeping my thoughts on how I want to redline this chapter to myself. I’ll certainly answer questions and help steer conversation away from unproductive avenues, but in general I want to see what you think, not tell you what I think.
Comments
9 responses to “With All My Lore: The Tremere”
Hey there! I enjoyed this read quite a bit, as I love playing Clan Tremere. I do have a couple criticisms though, so I’ll lay them out.
1. The Tzimisce didn’t call their blood magic Thaumaturgy, so referring to it as an existing discipline is wrong. Even if this narrative Tremere doesn’t know that it’s called Koldunic Sorcery, he would know that the Tremere had to invent Thaumaturgy by combining the power of the blood with their Hermetical trappings.
2. Branching from the last point, this narrator seems to know a lot and gives it freely. I always thought that few Tremere knew what happened in the first nights, and if they did, they were very old and very careful…that’s the reason I loved the clan. The narrator willingly gives up the full tale of Goratrix and soul switching right off the bat. Maybe it’s the lower word count that you have to consider? But I always found hints and mystery of the clan to be the most intriguing part.
Whether in newer or older books, the narrator always seems to be a lot more knowledgeable than the average individual. If I had to guess, I’d say it’s to combine that flavor of an in character perspective with the amount of knowledge you’re meant to have as a storyteller or even player.
A few things to think about here,
first, the use of the word Thaumaturgy. It’s a weak point in how it was used, the term is so vague and the Tremere who wrote the book or are talking, could possible know and use the right terms, besides, in a few points use the correct term like “blood magic”, it’s generic and should do for all other kinds of vampiric magic, while the Tremere should keep the term thaumaturgy from they own magic. It’s the way Tremeres are.
Second, Keep in mind to not give too much! say less is more! This guys should have ocult trait around 5 dots or so, to know this stuff. I know we should keep in mind the need of the book and so, i know that, but there is a lot of seriou secrets here.
Finally, Mana there’s nothing to do with Vampire once so ever… The term Tass is used in VDA since the first editions. Keep something close, its the same game right?
far from that, Good work!
But in certain way, that’s what he’s doing
I really liked the intro fiction: it succinctly presented the Clan mentality very well.
However, there are some style choices that I found odd…
As it has already been mentioned by some, there are some inconsistencies that to me were hard to tell if they were in-character bias, misinformation and revisionism; or if they were an out-of-character (the author’s) re-interpretation of the story – and in this case, incompatible with previous published material, especially Vampire: Dark Ages House of Tremere.
These inconsistencies mainly are: how many Tremere were originally Embraced as Tzimisce, how many survived, and their role in the creation of the vampirism ritual; and Thaumaturgy being learned from the Kolduns instead of being exhaustively researched from previously existing vampiric blood magic and laboriously adapted from mortal Tremere Hermetic magic.
In any way, even as “what modern Tremere know about their (edited) origins” this narrative seems too much naive. I can’t picture any of this fitting in my games (which almost always have a Tremere PC). It seems to assume that the typical Tremere is fed some lies by their Elders that would not hold against any contact with outside Kindred society, an investigation of their history or confrontation with the enemy. I can see how this would be a very interesting story seed for a new player (here, you play a good and proud vampire-mage, but wait, your Clan is riddled with some dark story, which you’ll learn the truth about eventually during play). But in the setting as a whole this presentation doesn’t look very sound to me.
I’m also not a fan of the Exilats, to be honest. I approve of adding to the setting, but something about the Exilats doesn’t ring as quite right considering both the Tremere and Tzimisce Clans…
I would prefer instead to see something about the Duchesky Revenant family -but perhaps they are better placed and fully explored in the Ghouls book. In this case, more about the Telyavs (and perhaps not restricting them to the Sabbat) would be very appreciated. They are much more interesting!
Once again I’d like to give thanks for the opportunity of the open dev!
“I would prefer instead to see something about the Duchesky Revenant family -but perhaps they are better placed and fully explored in the Ghouls book.”
From what I understand, they will be in the Ghouls book.
Ah, my favorite clan! Precious babies.
My only complete is no mention of the Trimira; Kindred from other clans who are given The Cup and rudimentary Thaumaturgy in exchange for acting as agents of the Tremere in areas where the main clan has little power. Their original mention was was a throwaway sidebar in one of the Blood Magic books, where it said that the Tremere had little luck infiltrating India to learn Sadhana from the native Ventrue, so they teamed up with low-caste Nosferatu and Ravnos and made them Trimira.
It’s a niche bit of canon that I’m oddly fond of, and I’d like to see it end up somewhere in this book.
Ah, my favorite clan! Precious babies.
My only complaint is no mention of the Trimira; Kindred from other clans who are given The Cup and rudimentary Thaumaturgy in exchange for acting as agents of the Tremere in areas where the main clan has little power. Their original mention was was a throwaway sidebar in one of the Blood Magic books, where it said that the Tremere had little luck infiltrating India to learn Sadhana from the native Ventrue, so they teamed up with low-caste Nosferatu and Ravnos and made them Trimira.
It’s a niche bit of canon that I’m oddly fond of, and I’d like to see it end up somewhere in this book.
I’d love to see some more in the book about the Tremere practices and such, along with Paths being left out, we also don’t see things like tribunals, or even one on one duels. Its like a clan book “lite”
Also the rankings used seem off you mention (I think Lords) governing an area as big as a state. Well if there are only 7 with the title Pontifex that means that ALL Lords would be in the US, and there would still be a missing state. Maybe a clairification of either “regions” or perhaps another layer of ranks in the mix?