See that guy up there in the Beast: the Primordial art? I know how he feels.
Freeeeee….fallin’…
See, we have a process for making RPG books. If you look below, you can see the stages with one exception, which is the prep work a developer does for their project. That work ends up as an outline (and sometimes a project “bible”) that gets handed to the writers so they can start their first drafts. Usually this process goes from stage to stage in a sequence that we have honed all through the WW years until these Onyx Path years. It is flexible enough to give in places where the creators need a bit more time, for example.
But sometimes a project gets away from the original intentions of the developer and myself. There can be any number of reasons, but a lot of times it happens because the developer and writers and I are too immersed in the creation, neck deep in the thing. Maybe we are hung up on the details while missing the big picture, the overall tone. Maybe we are obsessed with the big picture, and miss places where the game fails in the details.
This is one of the advantages to using the Open Development Process, as well as sending out Backer PDFs and Advance PDFs, as these things help us with making sure the details line up with our intended big picture.
But, as we talked about in our Monday Meeting today, sometimes, rarely, a project does fail to deliver our intended feeling and gameplay. The comments we received on the Beast draft posted with the Deluxe Beast: the Primordial Kickstarter made us realize that this was one of those cases. The text was evocative, but didn’t hangĀ together to describe Beast as we intended.
So we decided to revise the material with an eye towards clarifying our message.
This, to us, is the most important part of what we are doing with Beast. We are using the structure of the process to jump back into the text before it goes any further, like into layout, and before the Kickstarter runs out of time.
We’re not doing this because people had complaints. We’ve had books folks hated parts of before. All of our game lines have folks who enjoy them and folks who can’t stand them.Ā We’re not doing this because we want more Kickstarter money. We funded the Prestige Edition which was the goal.
We’re doing the revision because the book didn’t come across the way we wanted it to. This, to us, is a question of our efforts not combining to present the game we envisioned. And that doesn’t hit the bar we set for ourselves as creators.
Now with the revisions getting started, there are concerns being raised by those folks who liked the first text.
Well, first we’re going to be sure the revised text reads the way we intended originally, and then we’ll see if there are some blending of the versions in very specific areas. The important thing, for us, is to have the revision be our baseline. The thing we meant to do. Then, it’s OK for Matt to work inĀ other ideas or sections of the first text that actually work to enrich our original ideas.
And then we can rejoin the process where we left it. And stop this…
Free…fallin’…
Fast Eddy Webb was not around today, as he was moving to a new house. Yay, Eddy! Without him, we were of course, sad, but we soldiered on and talked process (see above), and some Gen Con stuff. Here are two items: signings at the booth and T-shirt discounts.
For signings, here are the current scheduled signing times and who’ll be there:
- Thursday, 2-3pm: Rose Bailey
- Friday, 5-6pm: Matt McFarland and Eddy Webb
- Saturday, 1-2pm: Neall Price and Dave Brookshaw
- Sunday, 1-2pm: Potluck! Whatever developers are around!
You can, of course, just pop by anytime and chat and get books or whatever signed by whomever of our gang is hanging around the booth, and Mirthful Mike Chaney, Impish Ian Watson and Rollickin’ Rose Bailey will be at the booth most times during the con. (I’ll be in and out, but glad to sign stuff whenever I’m there).
We’ll also be doing a discount on the products at the booth for anyone who is there in a White Wolf or Onyx Path T-shirt. So pop in and pick up a few books you’re missing and show off your keen sense of style.
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And now, the BLURBS!
Fear the dark places: the Beast: the Primordial KickstarterĀ is headed for the first Stretch Goal towards the creation of a Beast Fiction AnthologyĀ – which seems like just the sort of project that will shed some light on the dark places and give folks better understanding of what Beasts are. And why.Ā Many more Stretch Goals to hit as we ooze and scramble through the next twoĀ weeks. The original complete textĀ is up there on the KS site, and will be updated for any revisionsĀ we might make to the document.
Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary EditionĀ KS backers: M20 PDFs went out to backers, and the response has been amazing! Thanks to all of you for your support and accolades. TheĀ ErrataĀ Phase is now over – thanks for all your help!Ā
The secondĀ Pugmire poster,Ā Princess Yosha Pug, is nowĀ available along withĀ the first of the six PugmireĀ posters on DTRPG.com. Start spreading the Code of Man:Ā http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/148516/Sister-Picassa-Collie-Pugmire-Poster-1
The Art of Changing BreedsĀ for Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary EditionĀ isĀ on sale in both PDF and physical book PoD versions! Check it out and see how the art for the Fera was commissioned and created.
Waiting on PoD proofs of Dread Names, Red List for V20, so it might not hit DTRPG in time to go on sale Wednesday, but keep an eye open for this collection of the most dangerousĀ Kindred ever called Anathema.
Convention News: Our friends at Gamerati are running aĀ Game Day on July 25th, theĀ Saturday before Gen Con, in Eau Claire, WI. I’m told there is one nWoD session scheduled already, but they would love it if anybody in our community wants to run other WW or Onyx Path games. So check it outĀ if you want to doing some playing and give them a yell if you want to do some Storytelling:Ā http://gamerati.com/gamedays/
āāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāā
And now, new project status updates!:
DEVELOPMENT STATUS FROM ROLLICKING ROSE (Projects in bold have changed listings)
First Draft (The first phase of a project that is about the work being done by writers, not dev prep)
- M20Ā Book of SecretsĀ (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Exalted 3rd NovelĀ by Matt ForbeckĀ (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- M20 AnthologyĀ (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Pugmire Gen Con Materials (Be a Good Dog.)
- CtL anthologyĀ (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- TheĀ RealmĀ (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Dragon-BloodedĀ (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Dark Eras Expansions (nWod Dark Eras)
- Pugmire Early Access
- Dark Eras CompanionĀ (nWod Dark Eras)
- WtF The Pack (Werewolf: the Forasken 2nd Edition)
- VtM Lore of the BloodlinesĀ (Vampire: the Masquerade 20thĀ AnniversaryĀ Edition)
- WtA Kinfolk (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition
Redlines
- Mummy Fiction AnthologyĀ (Mummy: the Curse)
- Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anniversary Edition
- Cursed Necropolis:Ā Rio (Mummy: the Curse)
- Beckettās Jyhad Diary (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition, featuring the Huntsmen Chronicle (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)- In Open Development
- VtM Lore of the ClansĀ Expansions (Vampire: the Masquerade 20thĀ AnniversaryĀ Edition)
Second Draft
- Arms of the ChosenĀ (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Secrets of the Covenants (Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition)
- Scarred LandsĀ 2nd Edition
- W20 Changing WaysĀ (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- W20Ā PentexĀ Employee Indoctrination Handbook (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- nWoD Hurt Locker (World of Darkness 2nd Edition)- In Open Development
Development
- Promethean: the Created 2nd Edition, featuring the Firestorm Chronicle (Promethean: the Created)
- āSardonyxā System Rules (Base rules set for Scion and the Trinity Continuum) In Open Development
- W20 Shattered DreamsĀ (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)Ā
- nWoD 2e core (New World of Darkness)
- Mage: the Awakening Ā 2nd Edition, featuring the Fallen World Chronicle (Mage: the Awakening)Ā ā In Open Development
- Demon Storytellersā Guide (Demon: the Descent)Ā
Editing
- M20 How do you DO that? (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- V20 GhoulsĀ (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- V20 Black Hand:Ā Guide to the TalāMaheāRa (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
Development (post-editing)
Ā
ART DIRECTION FROM MIRTHFUL MIKE
In Art Direction
- Dreams of Avarice ā Artnotes out to artist.
- NWoD 2 ā Starting to see sketches.Ā Got the NWoD 2 logo and both versions of the Oroborous done.
InĀ Layout
- Gen Con StuffĀ ā Buttons and some of the cards are in proofing.Ā Working on the vert banner this week along with the freebie thing cards.
- Beast ā Working on the layout graphic elements.Ā
- M20 How Do You Do ThatĀ ā Awaiting text so Charles can get started on it.
- Cavaliers of Mars QS – Ā Starting on that once I have the layout files for the original. Mainly just need the elements and working files for the cover as I can rebuild the interior layout itself from the PDF.
- Pugmire Brochure – Should be able to get to that later this week. Contacting Leblanc for artwork for it.
In Proofing
- M20 ā Errata time ends thisĀ week.
- M20 Screen ā Still proofing with Phil.
- Ex 3 AnthologyĀ āĀ Awaiting updated text file.
- Gen Con Brochure – Adding in corrections from the 2nd Proof.
- The Avarice Chronicle (Combined Mummy Adventure)Ā – Just needs some back cover text and a corrected credits list… minor stuff. Book itself is in proofing.
- Demon Translation GuideĀ – 2nd proof.
At Press (on Drivethruā¦ or whatever)
- Red List ā PDF updated and PoD files uploaded to Drivethru. Proof ordered.
- The Poison Tree/Werewolf 20 NovelĀ ā Out to backers.
- Beast Within Revised LayoutĀ – Uploading updated digital Monday morning. PoDs off to LS for processing.
- Gen Con Banners – The big one is done, just trying to get the file uploaded.
- Pugmire Shirt – Sending that off the Teelaunch on Monday.
- OPP Gen Con Staff Shirt – Contacting Queensboro to get the sample sent out. You have to do that over the phone.
Special
- Dark Eras āĀ Holding pattern.
- VDA20Ā ā Indexing.
- Wraith 20Ā āĀ AwaitingĀ artĀ notes for the book. All the logos from Cobb are in.
- V20 Lore of the ClansĀ ā Holding pattern for appendices.
- Exalted 3rd EditionĀ ā RT here:Ā Waiting on new chapters from Maria – she plans on them being every chapterĀ in one stage or the otherĀ this week. So we’ll be able to look at how the whole thing holds together visually. To clear up something from last week: not planning on revising the Solar Caste Mark graphics. I like them just fine. Posted final map graphic for backers and have already tweaked it.
Other Stuff
REASON TO DRINK: To Matt McF and Rose. All kidding aside, they had a hell of a week and comported themselves professionallyĀ throughout.
Comments
62 responses to “A Beastly Process [Monday Meeting Notes]”
If I might make a metaphor, consider a restaurant where you can see the kitchen. Doesn’t that inspire confidence in the food, because you can see how the chef and his helpers make everything?
To be more blunt, I do appreciate these earnest peeks behind the curtain. To face potential criticism head-on like this shows how much faith you have in your creators and product.
Not necessarily. Some people reeeally don’t want to know how the sausage is made.
I’ve never understood such people. As long as they’re not throwing whole live screaming pigs into the grinder, why should it matter? The sausage tastes the same even if you watch it being made.
Sausage is, like, my favorite though.
Yeah, I’m the guy who just had to know…
Having done it before, I too don’t see the horror of watching the process.
I’m finishing off a bottle of wine in Matt and Rose’s honor as we speak. Cheers!
Ooh, what kind?
A shiraz, and surprisingly sweet for a red. Can’t recall the company, but the wine was called “UncensoRed”. It was delicious.
I joined in your celebration with a bottle of Pro*mis*Q*ous (California red table wine) that went very well with a variety of sausages. A toast to you both and your tremendous efforts!
Ooh, I like shiraz.
Thanks for sharing all of this with us and keep up the great work. I am deeply engrossed in Beast now and have decided to back the kickstarter despite the issues I have with the first draft. Gorgons, Krakens and their brethren are drifting through my head all day and they will make an appearance in my long-standing chronicle for sure.
Glad to hear that. Keep an eye on Matt’s revisions as we post them. Thanks!
what comes first, The Realm or Dragon-Blooded??
They’re both in first draft right now. Whichever one is done first will be released first.
Am I the only one that initially read this as a Chicken/Egg question and not a question about book release time lines?
Nope. And I think that the answer is the Dragon-blooded.
That map of the world for Exalted 3 is absolutely a thing of beauty.
I agree. It is literally the most beautiful map I have ever seen, RPG or not. Hell, it is one of the best illustrations of any kind I have ever seen. If the visual tone of the book is half as awesome, Ex3 will easily be the best looking RPG book ever.
It is very much more like an illustration (with accurate map parts) than an info-graphic.
Where can se sĆ©e it? Or is it a backers-only thing…
You should be able to see it in the Updates section of the Ex3 KS page.
Agreed, it is absolutely striking and seems to promise an equally striking world.
I’m Scottish and therefore don’t need a reason to drink.
However, Matt McF and Rose are both fantastic ambassadors for your company, and the work they produce is aways excellent. Matt in particular has been the subject of some pretty unfair and unpleasant rhetoric recently. Keep your head high Matt, all your efforts are appreciated.
I know Matt, and all the rest of us too, really appreciate your note!
I’m glad to see that Open Development is working. I hope to see more of it, with new projects being open from the very beginning. One of the reasons OPP is my favourite game developer is because of the openness, even if I hear some of the same concerns *were* brought up during the not-open playtesting.
Play-testing is a different process and in this case the signal was drowned out by the noise created when at least one playtester breaking their NDA. There was no way Matt could have pulled useful info out of that cacophony.
On the subject of today’s reason to drink – it really can’t be overstated how incredibly professional Onyx Path people are.
Some of the rhetoric we’ve seen in the last week was very… unpleasant. To me, personally. And I have no horse in this race, outside of being a fan. What it must’ve felt like for people who were actually working on this, I can’t even imagine. Must’ve been a gut-wrenching experience. To remain calm, reasonable, polite even – that’s some epic level of professionalism.
Matt, Rose and Rich, my hat’s off to you.
The hard part, maybe the professionalism part, is not just shutting out the negative stuff because of its nastiness or extreme nature, but to wade through all that to get to valid commentary that can help improve a book. Or in this case, can point the way to where we didn’t communicate as intended.
NWoD 2 ā “Starting to see sketches. Got the NWoD 2 logo and both versions of the Oroborous done.”
Am I the only one that saw this and thought –
As in the Oroborous from that awesome short story in the God Machine Fiction Anthology.
Because I fricken love that short-story and hoped it would get more fluff exposure. Hell I’ve liked it enough to use it as a metaphysical basis for my next NWoD game.
So now I really can’t wait for the new core.
It’s the just the update of the nWoD snake symbol…
This is the current WoD ouroboros:
As Mike says above, he’s designed the WoD 2nd Edition version of this symbol.
Will Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra get its own Kickstarter?
We do not have one planned for it, no. We just don’t have room in the schedule to KS everything folks would like us to.
There are many differences of opinion on what Beast needs to be the best Beast it can be but no one with eyes to see can deny that you’re busting your butts and fingers trying to make a Beast that is approachable by as broad an audience as possible without watering down its core themes. This isn’t so different than the transhumanist arguments in Promethean, if perhaps on a much grander scale and with more sensitive issues so I expect Blackhat Matt will be able to navigate the feedback and deliver a strongly themed, very playable if you’re into that sort of thing game.
I didn’t even realize there was a controversy until I saw this thread. It lead me to go and read the revised opening, where I was surprised by how much the simple addition of elder beasts to the process of becoming (as distinct from elder beasts as mentor figures one may or may not have) and the concomitant emergence of a beast culture changes the entire book for me. I do appreciate the change/fleshing out occurring in preproduction rather than in a later splat.
While the game as presently proposed isn’t for me, I continue to appreciate the artistry and talent of the writers, and look forward to the buffet of literature they’ll be putting on my table this year.
That is the idea, thanks!
Are Wraith the Oblivion 20th and The Vampire Black Hand book going to be consistent with each other or are they both going to be too vague about the other’s details?
Bit blank on what you mean here. I can see why the Black Hand should be familiar with Wraith, but why should Wraith be particularly concerned with the Black Hand?
Fluff reasons. Not to spoil the existing fluff, but, as I understand it, the Restless Dead take umbrage at the Kindred encroaching on their domain. And when you have the detritus of 5,000+ years of warfare at your disposal, intruders can be dealt with in stunning, absolute, and overwhelming finality.
Enoch? Necromancers?
Enoch is a secret even to wraiths. It’s certainly not common wraithly knowledge in the original run, where its existence was dubious even to the Deathlords until they got proof in Book of Legions.
According to Neall Raemonn Price, the current take is that wraiths think Enoch is a bullshit ghost story (ahem) about a lost city of vampires in the Underworld. The Ferrymen and Harbringer Guildmasters know it’s real, and where it is. The Smiling Lord knows it’s real too – Stygia occupied Enoch after the Third Great Maelstrom – but he’s in no position to do anything about it.
As for necromancy… what would make the Black Hand stand out from the other vampire necromancers?
So you’re saying that there is some detailed crossover material to use, right? A fan of Wraith20 can use some of the material in Tal’mahe’Ra?
Wouldn’t know on that one; I’m just a fan who tries to keep informed and sometimes jumps to conclusions.
According to the open development outline for the V20 Hand book, it has info on Enoch, on how the Hand travels through the Underworld, and crossover in terms of how characters from the rest of the CWoD might work with or against the Hand.
Well, I wrote that before I’d talked to Rich Dansky.
…though it’s still pretty much the same sentiment.
Any idea as to what the next Kickstarter is after Beast?
Going to try and have one for a Deluxe W20 Shattered Dreams, and then Deluxe Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition is coming, too.
Awesome. I’m definitely going to back(buy) both.
Thanks, Rich.
Awesome. I’m inordinately excited for people to finally be able to see Shattered Dreams. š
Awesome. Iām inordinately excited for ME to finally be able to see Shattered Dreams. (Well, I am people too) š
Don’t worry guys. Beast is an ambitious game, and you should feel no shame in revising it. I’m glad you have been able to use our input constructively. Take however much time you need to make this game amazing.
I really hope that the changes everyone were calling for translates into new backers and supporters. So far, I’m not seeing it.
Mostly, I just see previously happy backers and supporters, not so happy or dropping out. Everyone who cried shame really needs to pick up the slack or you’re opinions really don’t have a leg to stand on.
Thanks for noticing that it is, in fact, an ambitious and hence risky new game. Some of the ideas Matt is trying to get across aren’t something we’ve tried to include in this sort of way before. Which might be one of the reasons some people have had difficulty getting the ideas we tried to present in the text- we know that they are different and are writing them that way, but folks are mentally reading about them with their “typical nWoD” expectations turned on.
one of the nice things about 1e was that it was so templatey that you could almost pick up one game and innately know how another worked. 2e does not appear to be doing quite as well at that, and I agree with a commenter on another post, 2e seems heavier mechanically.
maybe if there’s ever a 3e it’d be worth it to reinvistate the splat template.
Personally I didn’t like the original 5*5 format, mostly because I thought 5 and 5 were too restrictive, and that Changeling’s 6 * 4 was just fine. Basically all that was necessary there was list of races and social groups.
It’s easy to explain to people, you have a Race, you have a Social Group, you have an Energy type, you have a Virtue/Vice, and an Integrity Attribute.
now this template seems more or less broken and we’d almost have to go back and explain each system differently, even if they can work together they don’t have the same structure.
should you not experiment? not sure maybe now isn’t the right time? maybe a core book isn’t the right venue.
For me at least I’m not having that much of a problem understanding the mechanical aspects, but I do acknowledge that I feel like I can’t explain it as “that’s like vampire’s *”.
fluff wise I feel like the book defends beasts too much, it makes me feel empathetic too them, like those poor X Mutant kids… Actually come to think of it Demon did that too… I love Demon, but I kind of wish the games wouldn’t try to make me sympathize with the monster I’m playing. WtF2e is much better than 1e because the “defender’s of the world” is toned down (though I think the Pure should be playable any social faction should be, imho, though perhaps stated “play either pure or forsaken”)). “you’re here to teach humanity a lesson”? why? why can’t I just be here… what’s a vampire’s purpose? drink blood, reproduce. what’s a beast purpose? to feed, and reproduce? what’s a humans purpose? feed, reproduce; etc. Basically as a general rule I don’t like having some predestined purpose.
Generally speaking I like the game, and will continue backing.
Sorry. Haven’t had time to jump in before. But, I wanted to chime in. Beast is trying to walk into unexplored grounds. After so many games so much has already been covered that this is a huge challenge in itself. Issues are to be expected. And remember. Vamp, werewolf, mage,etc. They weren’t perfect 20+ years ago. They also didn’t have to face the internet’s oftentime insenstive reactions on release.
But damn. Look at how awesome they are today. How they evolved edition after edition to fix what didn’t work as planned and add the occasional new colors. Here you have the chance to do that BEFORE release. So, while it may sound grim now, In 20 years when we do B20’s kickster there will be hordes of dedicated fans. Cheers.
Very true- thanks!
You’re quite welcomed.
I wish Matt (and all the writers/artists involved) every succes in making Beast the Primordial the best it can be.
I hope that you (still) enjoy creating this game.
I’d love to see another look at what was trying to be communicated with Beast. I /loved/ the entirety of the original draft and have despised some of what the revision did to that. I truly felt it was a change in theme from the original (which I suppose means it wasn’t properly communicated). I wrote quite a bit on the themes that I saw as part of the game in the last Beast blog post.
But I digress. I really would like to know what themes are going to be there and how they are going to be explored. Because I would love to know if I should be excited or not… And that excitement almost does entirely hinge on whether or not I’ll be “coming home.”
That said, thank you all so much! Having drinks in your honor.
somehow i think the 5 maidens are angry with me o.o;
1) Creeperhost decided today was the day they were going to withdraw from bank account for my server. had to deal w/ $35 overdraft fee.
2) car had a flat tire on the way to work.
3) first time back on league after 6 months and my entire team decides to afk. cue loss streak of 10.
4) i got a call from my high school councilor saying that i have apparently forgotten to pick up my diploma from when i graduated 4 years back. went to the school, found out i didnt have my state id, turned away at door, got home =( still havent found it =(
5) after getting home i smell something burning. find the source: water heater was plugged in and the wire was shorting out. burnt hand. plumber just came by and said that ill need to replace it.
q.q why today?
all i did was RP a character that blatantly insulted them over the weekend in my exalted game. (still dont know what that chars fate will be until next sunday)
what do you think? maidens or really bad luck?
I have noticed that the name for the Scarred Lands book has changed from Scarred Lands Player’s Guide to Scarred Lands 2nd Edition. Is it a mistake or is there really a change? I mean, “Scarred Lands 2nd Edition” seems to refer to a campaign setting book, while Player’s Guide seems more oriented towards character development (classes, feats and such, of course with enough background to tie it together). Is it possible to have more information on that change?
Thanks!
Thank you everyone from Onyx path for all that you do!!!
I am very excited for beast and am so impressed with the fortitude of the staff threw out these stressful weeks. Beast will only be better because of all the hard work that is being put into it. Thank you all, just please be nice.
that being said……please more information on W20 Shattered dream?????? I am so excited…Kinda hoping for a stretch goal of a bunyip and croatoan tribebook.