Sometimes the tormented artist look like in Efrem Palacio’s piece from V20 Lore of the Clans is exactly what is on my face while working on a piece of art. But these days, that expression is more likely to appear as I read online how I, or Onyx Path, or one of our creative team-mates, is ripping off folks, or is unprofessional, or doesn’t care enough about Game X, or is just plain lazy. Now to be fair to our community, these sorts of comments are far, far, in the minority, and really it’s not the critical words (Worms, Roxanne!), it’s the nasty, personal, attacks that come with the words. As we all talked about this in our meetings today, let me share with you our concerns.
These past four years, we at Onyx Path have tried to shift the way we as creators and publishers communicate with our community of players with things like these blogs, the Open Dev Process, our social media, and many of the rewards and such in our Kickstarters. We have shown an unprecedented amount of transparency compared to any time period in White Wolf‘s lifespan, and we are proud of that. Not because it is good for business, we frankly are still not sure about that, but because we genuinely like this kind of give and take and project building with all of you. Our creators all have different ways and comfort levels with how they do it, but the connection, the immediacy, is exhilarating. We can do this because we are not some giant corporation, or even like White Wolf was during its day. We are all human beings embarking on a creative journey together with each project.
The openness and honesty with which we try to deal with all of you at all times is based on respect, and that respect must be a two-way street. Part of what we’ve tried to do these past four years is to leave a lot of leeway for posters here and on our social media to complain, since no, we’re not perfect, and there certainly have been growing pains as we ramped up. Plus, when we and you actually communicate about why a business practice, section of a book, or an entire book doesn’t work for you, Onyx Path gains a lot more insight than hiding in an ivory tower.
Talking with you and learning from criticism builds better and more creative projects. This is a good thing and we are more than capable of dealing with criticism of our work. However, there is no reason to expect us to “deal with” being insulted and accused of whatever heinous acts a poster can dream up.
This culminated in my posting about these very concerns on the Exalted forums in the weekly thread quoting from the Exalted updates below. Here’s the stickied post: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/467503-forum-policy-an-important-reminder
Every week someone made a similar kind of thread about the updates, and just about every week the insults and nastiness posted caused the thread to be closed and suspensions assigned by our tireless Mods. So I posted the linked post, and almost immediately someone posted in response that considering how frustrated backers are with EX3 being late that we really just have to “take it”.
That poster was issued a suspension (not a perma ban as was rumored). Because even if you don’t literally attack us, saying it is OK for others to do so contributes to the idea that this behavior is the norm, should be expected, and again, that no matter how I or the creative teams feel, we need to smile through the abuse. Basically, that poster denied how I and other creative folks here feel. That’s not right and it’s not something I’ve ever done with any of you.
Two. Way. Street.
So in the final analysis, this thing we do is what we want to do. We love making new games and creative settings and rejuvenating all these amazing White Wolf game lines. We want to share the process of how we do these things with you as we do them. (If that peek behind the curtain doesn’t matter to you personally, that’s cool, we expect and enjoy the many ways folks interact with us). Just bear in mind that no one can wade through constant nastiness and keep up their enthusiasm, energy, and creativity. Think about the effect your wicked bad-ass put-down post is going to have on us before you post.
That is how we always try and treat you. We are not a corporation of faceless mooks. Those insults and accusations aren’t hitting some PR or Marketing department, they are hitting the very creative people who directly make these projects. You know who we are. You know me and Mirthful Mike, Rollickin’ Rose, Impish Ian, and Fast Eddy Webb. You know the Devs: Matt, David, Dave, Matt, Stew, Colin, Neall, John, Holden, Justin, Bill, Ethan, John.
We are human and we make mistakes, have personal lives, strive to do what many have claimed is impossible and refute the “White Wolf is dead!” crowd, and have pride in our work. We’re human beings and we do not deserve spite. We are all human beings embarking on a creative journey together with each project.
A journey down the Onyx Path.
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And now, the BLURBS!
Sothis Ascends, the final book of Mummy: the Curse’s originally planned supplements is on sale as an Advance PDF and we are assembling errata for final PDF and PoD physical book copies are available: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/146995/Sothis-Ascends
It includes:
• Comprehensive information on the mundane and supernatural world during each of the three prior Sothic Turns, Mummy’s pivotal eras of historical play — the Cannibal Hymn (2371 BCE), the Mighty Despair (910 BCE), and the Return to Dusk (551 CE).
• A wealth of new material for Storytellers, including characteristics of a Sothic chronicle, features of the latest Sothic Turn, a secret society of the Deathless, a new kind of Utterance, and two new types of story framework — the interwoven chronicle and the parallel chronicle.
• “Pearl of Ascent” — a complete Mummy story that Storytellers can run alone or as the climactic final act in a three-part series called The Avarice Chronicle.
The Deluxe V20 Lore of the Clans Kickstarter hit its funding goal in about 24 hours, and is now pushing towards goals that will add Appendixes to the book itself and Bloodlines to a separate extra book called, logically enough, Lore of the Bloodlines. But the Stretch Goals are just one part of the fun, as backers have been sending in selfies and liking our Facebook page in order to boost the Achievements counters and get some extra rewards! If you want to see how the V20 Clans and Bloodlines are given more depth and expanded on to the present day, check it out at: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-v20-lore-of-the-clans
I was just told that Today Only, Monday April 6th, until 8pm Pacific Time, our T-shirts will be 20% on our RedBubble site! Sometimes RedBubble does a surprise sale, and today is one of those days! The discount code is BANANAS.
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And now, new project status updates!:
DEVELOPMENT STATUS FROM ROLLICKING ROSE (Projects in bold have changed listings)
First Draft (The first phase of a project that is about the work being done by writers, not dev prep)
- W20 Pentex Employee Indoctrination Handbook (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition) (Going for open development soon.)
- M20 Book of Secrets (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Secrets of the Covenants (Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition) – In Open Development
- Exalted 3rd Novel by Matt Forbeck (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- M20 Anthology (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Demon Translation Guide (Demon: the Fallen and Demon: the Descent)
- nWoD Hurt Locker (World of Darkness 2nd Edition)
- Pugmire (Be a Good Dog.)
- CtL anthology (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- WoD nWoD 2e core (World of Darkness 2nd Edition)
- The Realm (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Dragon-Blooded (Exalted 3rd Edition)
Redlines
- Mummy Fiction Anthology (Mummy: the Curse)
- Mage: the Awakening 2nd Edition, featuring the Fallen World Chronicle (Mage: the Awakening) – In Open Development
- Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anniversary Edition
- W20 Changing Ways (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Cursed Necropolis: Rio (Mummy: the Curse)
- Demon Storytellers’ Guide (Demon: the Descent)
- Beckett’s Jyhad Diary (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition, featuring the Huntsmen Chronicle (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
Second Draft
- V20 Black Hand: Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- W20 Shattered Dreams (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- W20 Novel by Mike Lee (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Arms of the Chosen (Exalted 3rd Edition)
Development
- V20 Red List (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- V20 Ghouls (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Promethean: the Created 2nd Edition, featuring the Firestorm Chronicle (Promethean: the Created) Being playtested.
- Beast: the Primordial core book (Beast: The Primordial)
- “Sardonyx” System Rules (Base rules set for Scion and the Trinity Continuum)
Editing
- M20 How do you DO that? (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- MtC Dreams of Avarice
Development (post-editing)
ART DIRECTION FROM MIRTHFUL MIKE
In Art Direction
- M20 How Do You Do That – Sketches rolling in. Even have Gaydos turning in finals.
- Wraith 20 – Logos continue. I believe he only has one more.
- Dreams of Avarice – Back on that this week.
In Layout
- V20 Lore of the Clans – Layout continues.
- M20 Screen – Compiling the list with Phil this week.
- Art of CB – Still working on it.
- Gen Con Stuff – Getting stuff rolling. Shooting to have the shirt designs done and some of the small stuff knocked out this week.
In Proofing
- M20 – Second proof out to Phil.
- WtF 2 – Off for indexing.
- VDA20 – Off for indexing.
- VDA 20 Screen – Soon.
- Sothis Ascends – Advance PDF out and errata compiling.
- BotW 20 – Saw deboss plate 1. Awaiting deboss plate 2.
Special
- Dark Eras – Holding pattern.
- Exalted 3rd Edition – RT here: Maria’s new rough layout OK’d by Devs and me, all the text is the new text they provided. She is doing an in-depth layout pass now that she knows this is the text she has to work with.
Other Stuff
- Shirts – CTD House shirts… for reals this time as I should have time.
REASON TO DRINK: Holidays passed and survived.
Comments
146 responses to “Oh, the Humanity! [Monday Meeting Notes]”
As someone who loathes vitriol unless used for Infernal crafting, I’m very pleased with the tenor of this.
Thanks, I wrote it several times to get the right tone. Still might not have nailed it.
For my part, I think you guys have done a great job with the game lines. It’s clear to me that Onyx Path cares a lot about their community. You continue to support your old line of products to please that segment of your followers rather than just focus everything on your new line. I can’t really think of any other game companies that do that. The open development and interaction with the community. . .you don’t have to do these things but you do. It’s easy to criticize but creating is difficult. I think you’ve all done a bang up job with Onyx Path and look forward to some of your releases to come, like C20! <;) Kep up the good work!
It’s very complicated and distressing to have to write a “You’re not allowed to berate and abuse me and mine anymore” letter.
For me it is, yes. I really want to find the value behind any complaints and see how we can learn from them. So I tend to hold off maybe longer than I should with forum discipline hoping that a dialogue can be reached. It just became obvious that axes were being ground and dead horses were being beaten, and something had to change.
For what little it’s worth, I do want to apologize for any inappropriate comments I made over the years. I imagine a few of them weren’t as light-hearted or witty as I thought they were. I just hope that I was just being gauche about it, and that I didn’t come off as a complete idiot.
And since anything else I try to add to this post makes me feel like I’m digging myself deeper and deeper into a hole and I need to change the subject, can you give us a hint about what the Master Creator of Darkness tier Dark Eras is going to be?
Don’t you (or anybody) do that thing where you think I’m talking about you but you really have never been nasty in your posts. You’re not the problem here.
And no.
😉
if the shoe fits, lace that bitch up and wear it?
hopefully, it’s looking pretty sloppy on my feet… but even so, if one is thinking about it it’s worth reflecting and attempting to adjust your behavior so that you know that shoe doesn’t fit.
all that said, isn’t this like the second time you’ve had to say something like this in 6 months? I feel like there was another “don’t be an A-Hole” post a few months back.
I’ve not got much in the way of real suggestions other than heavy handed moderation.
This time I was trying to focus on the fact that we are just human beings trying to do our best work here, and how dehumanizing the negativity can be.
Random question about the scheduling: Unless I’ve missed something, it’s looking like Promethean 2e is further along than Mage 2e. Is Promethean going to be out first, then?
Could be. They are different creative teams and working at different paces and challenges.
Just as someone who’s part of the Prommie 2: Alchemical Boogaloo playtest group, know that we are still playtesting, but Matt’s moved some of his focus towards Beast: the Primordial. Promethean: the Created Second Edition is gonna happen, and it’s gonna be brilliant. Have no fears, fellow Pilgrims!
They’re at different stages in development, but I had to take focus off PtC2 for a while to get Beast done, and now I have to redline some Demon things. It’s being playtested, and since Promethean really benefits from long-term playtesting (to test out Pilgrimage mechanics, you see), this is really good in the long run.
“Not because it is good for business, we frankly are still not sure about that”
May I ask about this remark? It’s just that I’m curious. The crowd-sourcing phenomena has created a renaissance for tabletop gaming, giving creators an unparalleled level of creative freedom. The open development process allows for a more polished product thanks to the interactivity between the creator and the fans. Both incredibly useful and liberating factors. However I don’t know how good a business model this is and I would like to ask your opinion about it.
Some people don’t want to know how the sausage is made. Some people get pissed when a book isn’t available when estimated and don’t care about our concerns about quality. How many of them are there?
Not many, but still too many. My players have bought more game books in the last year (pretty much since demon) BECAUSE of your current open development set up.
Thanks for making personal horror so very much fun.
Very glad to hear that, and thank you. Positive anecdotes are great to hear!
In my case Rich the only thing that I can say is that I love this way of doing things and it has encourage me to buy more of your products. The reason is that the open development process makes me feel that I have put a part of myself in the final product. I don’t know if it’s helping more on the long term but I believe it does. keep doing an amazing job. 🙂
Thank you, I’m glad to hear it.
I’ve been obsessively combing through Sothis Ascends, and I have to say that it was a great read. I loved every chapter and I hope the line continues for a long time!
“M20 – Second proof out to Phil.”
Omg, I think I remember hearing that the backers were getting a copy of the second proof! Even if that isn’t so, I am happy to see this project getting close to completion (not counting printing).
Depends on whether Phil is OK with this second proof or needs more changes. We’re not sending it out to backers until he is good with it, and CCP too, and then out to ya’ll sans index.
Those steps make sense. Thanks for the response. 🙂
Now I’m going to try to forget about Mage for a while and go back to reading Mummy content.
as one of the 3,926 backers for M20 who will soon be apart of the unofficial underlings backer proof reading, I wish to say thank you OPP for all of your hard work, for all of the updates, the peekings of the inner workings, all of it. 🙂 Thank you 🙂
You are very much welcome, it is our pleasure. Thanks!
So I know this is most likely a pointless question to ask but I’ll give it a shot.
All thing being equal and given previous experience with this sort of process to you think the second proof of M20 take as long as the first proof?
Not that I mind a 4-6 week wait for a quality product. Just was wondering if I’m being pessimistic on that estimate.
Be pessimistic and then if we get it to you earlier, which really depends on Satyr Phil, you’ll be extra happy.
Octavio, actually according to Rich ” the current plan is to get through a second proof and create a clean PDF without an index but with backer names so that all of you can give it a look over while the index is getting made. Then we’ll do a version with Index and any corrections you might need us to make to the names, or really anything you see that we messed up, and that will update in your DTRPG libraries automatically so you can download the final PDF easily. You won’t need a new link. Then we do the PoD and deluxe printer files and to press they go! “
Exactly. If Satyr Phil needs another round of changes, it’ll take another proof, but nothing looks like we’ll have to do that at this time.
I think your style of transparency is wonderful and excellent. If some think that it’s “unprofessional”… well the Western concept of “professional” is presumably based on a business model that doesn’t use any transparency.
Now if only I had some moonsilver smashfists to go with all that vitriol…
I just find it frustrating that it is so hard to level a criticism without everyone going for you throat for disparaging their favorite people. Its not like leveling a complaint against Microsoft or Electronic Arts where you can make a point directed at the company not just one person, no one is going to let you do that with Onyx Path.
When there is some sort of critique you want to level at Onyx Path it is never seen as something impersonal directed at the abstract concepts of the “company” or “development” everyone always takes it as a personal slight at the individual Devs as people, and I think the Devs sometimes do as much to incite this notion in their responses. Taking great personal offense, and responding sharply and snidly at what was probably intended as a rational criticism or legitimate question.
Companies aren’t people. Only the individual humans in them are people.
And personal attacks are always personal. The posts being called out on the Exalted forum were personal attacks.
As far as I can tell, no. Nobody incites insults. We have many constructive and excellent conversations every day with our community, and those people don’t do that because we’re fragile or want folks to kiss our butts. They are capable of presenting their ideas in a way that is not insulting, or accusatory. If you find it hard to frame your thoughts in a non-offensive way, maybe you should try and study their ways of writing.
Ok I want to pose a comment, actually more of a concern that I don’t think was addressed in the aforementioned thread, being lost in the shuffle.
What sort of collaboration was the Anathema stretch goal as one of the major goals ($20,000) intended to fund? The initial goal suggested that there was some sort of complex collaboration that would not be possible without those funds, and that without that collaboration it wouldn’t be possible to have it be ready for day one release.
What sort of collaboration has that stretch goal facilitated to date, or I guess also what sort of collaboration is yet to come?
No antagonism or personal slight intended, just a bit of concern and mostly curiosity.
I think I might see a problem with how you are thinking of Stretch Goals. $20k was not the amount that was put aside to facilitate that goal. Pledges that get us past stretch goals are mostly from those backers backing for physical rewards that all have to be manufactured using their pledge money, and so little of that $20k is available after those amounts are deducted. What was left over would have been used, and still could be, if there was a problem with the process of working with the Anathema team. But that’s not the point of that amount, the amount represents two things: our willingness to work with those guys for the first time because you the backers pushed for it, and a cushion of funds to justify the Devs taking time away from other EX3 projects in order to spend that time.
Ok I see what you mean the stretch goals aren’t financial considerations so much as indicators of intent.
There was still talk of substantial collaboration being needed to get Anathema out as an official product in time for release, have you/will you still be able to undertake this collaboration to get Anathema out in time for the release as per the stretch goal.
There’s only so much we can do while respecting their autonomy with their project. If they tell us there are issues, we have every hope we can work together to resolve them in time for a simultaneous release, but that is their rightful call to make.
Have the Anathema team been sent a draft of EX3 at any point so they could get started?
Why don’t you reach out to them? We gave them what they needed, to do what they need to do, as I said before.
I guess I will have to reach out to Urs, I’m just not sure why this isn’t a question you can answer with a yes or no
Because I told you we gave them what they needed, so what possible difference does it make if we gave them the complete text or half the text or just specific sections that they asked for?
I can see lots of significance in these different possibilities. The completed text (ie. the one Maria signed off on) is going to have all the charms and mechanics in their final form, by all accounts a completed draft from a month ago is already out of date in regards to evocations, so it is valid to ask if they have been kept up to date. Even if the Anathema Devs thought they could get along with just half the text or specific sections, would it not also be prudent to send them the complete text as well so they can get a context of the complete system?
At the end of the day I’m just not sure why you wouldn’t just say “this is what we have shared with them, what we have shared is as up to date as it gets” rather than having this whole conversation.
So know you know best how the Anathema team needs their info, besides how we need to function in order to collaborate with them.
Folks, in case it sounds here, on this single blog page, like I’m just being unreasonable with Calvin here, please let me assure you that the reason I’m not simply giving him a simple answer is because this isn’t just a single conversation on this one page, it has been ongoing for a week across our various comments sections and forums. Calvin seems to think he has uncovered a vast corrupt conspiracy to rip off our Exalted backers in the way that we have fulfilled our Stretch Goal agreement to work with the Anathema team, and he has relentlessly questioned us, even going so far as to try and contact Maria who has no connection to that Stretch Goal, in what I guess is an attempt to get the answers to his burning questions. Every answer we give, he needs clarified, and always with the “I’m just not sure why…” verbiage that insinuates that there must be something more going in, something wrong, beyond the actual info that I first gave a totally different poster than him.
So, I’m not answering because the Anathema team got the info they wanted and we are ready to give them more should they need it. That is collaboration. You, Calvin, do not get to give us the third degree in order to decide whether that collaboration fulfills whatever your definition of the word is, it is between Onyx Path and Anathema to work together to enable them- the Anathema team- to create the EX3 character creator. Being a backer does not give you the right to know every method we choose to use between our respective teams. Like I said earlier, somewhere, on this topic, there is no way that I would want us to be looking over their shoulders as they do the work they clearly do so well, and I’m not going to speak for them on their progress.
If you would ask me not to make false claims, which I do not believe I ever have I would ask you to do the same for me. My only contact with Maria was one tweet.
“Any chance you can share some of your experiences on the Exalted layout with the fans and backers?”
What that has to do at all with Anathema or how it was inappropriate in any way I do not know.
And that says all anyone needs to know.
I am excited to hear about and see what the new edition of exalted will look like and I went to person in charge of that part of the developments public social media page and let them know that there is interest in hearing about their process.
I strongly agree that some spoilers would be very welcome, and likely produce a lot of goodwill. Even in the rpg.net thread, even if I want to sift through dozens of posts where non-devs argue with each other on a tangent, there seems to be little substance about the setting or mechanics beyond repeated “Hehe, maybe!” or “Wait and see!”
No, I don’t mean release the whole thing for free bit by bit–to be blunt, I think anyone who wanted that will already have the leaked version on their HDD. But revealing something like a couple of Charms (in a traditionally underfed ability like Awareness or Dodge, maybe), or some of the new Merits, Sorcery spells, Hearthstones or Artifacts. Maybe a capsule description of a new or revamped spot on the map? Many people seem really keen to know about the Dreaming Sea, and I’d like to know a few facts about this Vaneha place. An antagonist? When that sort of spoiler has come out in the past, the reception seemed to be largely positive, so far as I saw?
Just little things that will get people stoked again, and which may also help a bit with the “cabin fever” atmosphere on the forums. I’d really like to see enthusiasm and positive discussion there once more, rather than endless circular “Is / Should X be in 3e?” arguments and “are we there yet?” grumblings.
(I hope I’ve articulated myself well. I want to explain my opinion on things that could be done better, but I don’t want to come across as being an entitled whiner calling the devs to explain themselves on every step of the process.)
I do not even know what to post. Ex3 brings up strong feelings on both sides of the fence for me, so I will follow the sage advice, say nothing if you can’t say anything nice.
Rich, I am in awe of you and the dev team being able to keep a positive outlook thru all the negativity that has come your way! Some has been mine, some has not. Some has been deserved, some has not. I keep reminding myself, w/o you guies, none of us would have the opporotunity to bitch cause there would be no Ex3. If the roles were reversed, I would have said “Shut it the fuck down and give everyone refunds! Ex3 is dead!” Fortunatly, you are made of stronger stuff than me.
For a small buisness you guies make serious quality product. I hope that the growing pains of OP can lead to a stronger, smoother workflow in the future. I would love to hear that “now OP is going to do X to make sure XX, never happens again!” But I know you guies are a small company juggling many freelancers. That does not bode well for accountablity in the standard way, we of the western world have become acustomed too.
Again, revel in your successes, learn from your mistakes (cause we are not going to let you forget about them while you still have our $$$!). You are living the dream!
I think it’s important to note that the devs and writers and everyone at OPP are also human, and can have bad days where they’re grumpy and stressed and respond more abrasively than they normally would too; the OPP staff and freelancers aren’t trained community liaisons or public relations people expecting them to be perfect in tone and de-escalation tactics all the time isn’t even remotely fair to them. And sometimes in already contentious situations things can escalate because of it.
And that’s okay. It happens. It’s just the nature of human communication. But the second anyone steps over the line of frustrated debate into personal attacks or viciousness, they’ve gone way too far and no longer deserve to be part of the conversation.
I have never seen anyone involved with OPP cross that line, though I’ve seen plenty of frustrated abrasiveness here and there over the years. Something that is sadly not true of the community, especially with regard to Exalted, though, as Rich said, it’s definitely a minority of voices.
Excellent recap! Thanks- that’s just what I was aiming to get across.
There is a difference between criticism and personal insults. One can criticize how long it has taken to get Exalted Third edition out. And, really, that part of the delay in it was completely redoing huge sections of the system? Yes, that was a bad call on OPP’s part. They have, however, learned from that, and do not do the kickstarter until the book is mostly written except for the stuff added from Stretch Goals. Should it have taken as long as it is to get EX3 out? No, it shouldn’t. And people have a genuine right to be upset about that. HOWEVER, they do not have a right to belittle or insult the people working on the project.
However, you know what? I think that, ultimately, EX3 is going to be more worth the wait then Duke Nukem Forever was. 😉
I think it was the only call we could make at the time, just as the other decisions were made with the available info at the time. Hindsight says I’d have much preferred to have delayed the KS, but none of us knew what would happen at the time.
Website error: The Lore of the Clans KS link goes to the Dark Eras KS instead.
On the blog BLURBS!? I just tested mine and it went to Lore.
No, it’s the one on the Onyx Path front page. I noticed that too.
I’ll tell Ian-
Erinys, they have fused to become The Dark Era Lore of The Clans KS !
The Lore of the Dark Clans Era?
Personally, I think if people had to use their real names to back their comments as the developers use their real names to create, the amount of personal attacks would go down.
I too am eager for the books I helped Kickstart, but I trust and believe in you and everyone at Onyx Path, Rich. Maybe it helps that I’ve looked you in the eyes. 🙂
Thanks, and uh, is it getting warm in here? 😛
One of the reasons I don’t post with any frequency as of lately is because I don’t want to add to the background noise of what’s going on in the Exalted forums right now. I KNOW you guys are doing everything you can do to get this behemoth done, and done correctly, and honestly, that’s enough for me. I’ve developed a (deserved, admittedly) reputation as an abrasive poster over the years, but, I mean, even from my perspective there’s nothing else you guys can do to make this go any faster. Yes, I’d like it done, but I don’t want another 250+ page document of errata and corrections to have to paw through again. Do what you need to do, get it done when it’s done, and do it right, that’s all I can ask of you.
I really do think it was important for EX3 to start fresh, and yes, let us hope that this new start ends the need for such a doc. I’n sure there will be some errata, but we’re trying to front end that with the backer PDF so it’s not a necessity because of only having printed books. Thanks!
So Rich, out of all of it does the CCP approvals take the longest nomatter the game ?
Nope, they vary from project to project. By and large the process is much more streamlined than it was at the beginning.
do all of the books have to fit a certain criteria for CCP ?
Yes.
Will we be seeing any open development for Beast? or at least teasers?
I’m told soon.
That’s very exciting!
#PartyHard
I strenuously object to your characterization of events. There are, by my count, 21 Monday Meeting threads. A grand total of 2 have been closed. One was the thread you linked to above, where the person who was banned was, in my opinion, collateral damage despite your assertions. The other, based on my own reading, completely lacked any sign of personal attack.
There was a brouhaha about the Anthology, with a thread that was closed, and that particular thread did, as I recall, get vitriolic. And in recent threads about Anathema, there was significant consternation regarding misunderstandings of the kickstarter stretch goal’s wording. But both of these events represent the reactions of individuals who felt misled, and not in some absurd and incomprehensible way.
While I do not condone any personal attacks I may have failed to note, I have said before, and will say again (if it ever gets seen) that the fallout, in striking individuals who were not, themselves, vitriolic, as made evident by numerous members of the community, as heavy-handed in the extreme, that calm criticism comes with the territory, and that this whole fiasco has greatly damaged my previously high respect for Onyx Path.
The moderators disagree with your assessment and I stand by them as per the reasons I gave both on the forums and this blog post. When we are told we have to “take it” after months and months of these sorts of attacks, including you arguing with me here about whether I’m feeling that these are personal attacks is correct in your opinion, those are signs of the very problem I’m talking about. From this post it sounds like you would rather count up the number of closed threads than accept that the Exalted Forums are a negative and confrontational place and try and help us change things for the better.
I agree there is evidence of the problem here, but I disagree with what it is. The crux of my complaint is that, while validly wanting to limit toxic criticism, you hit the wrong target, and when called on it by several folks, you doubled down then, and then again with what I consider to be this lopsided representation of the facts (which was my actual point of contention, rather than cataloging threads per se). The evidence of the problem I currently see is the continued difficulty there seems to be in separating out those who disagree with you and criticize your actions from those who disagree with you venomously and criticize you personally– you’re now trying to lump me in the same boat. But in the end, I started by noting I disagreed with you. I don’t expect you to agree with me, and you are of course free to handle your own forum however you wish.
Sigh.
Dude, tone matters. What you are saying isn’t the problem; it is how you are saying it.
Positive critiques aren’t run like a courtroom or a debate club. To positively contribute you have to worry less about winning the argument and more about sharing another relevant viewpoint.
Many of the earlier complaints were personal and the assertion that the creative team should just take it, is inappropriate to say the least.
Yes, this is the internet and people are going to be less civil under the anonymity than they would be in person, but there is no reason that OPP should take the abuse lying down.
I used to keep a rolling update thread on the process of Ex3, never really seemed to garner as much negativity as there seems to be now.
I was wondering, is Arms of The Chosen & The Realm going to be hardback like the 3rd Edition core and Dragonblooded?
Friend bought me a book series today and the spine graphics have different spacing and number placements, would drive me mad having to store all my 3rd edition books wonky to make the spine graphics line up.
I completely understand, and what you will see is that the PoD physical books from DTRPG.com will be consistent, but the Deluxes will be different. I’m not sure there is any value to making the “normal” supplements soft covers, now that we are working with PoD books with this new edition.
This might have got lost in the mix but…
I can’t find an update about the Exalted 3rd edition fiction anthology in the Monday meeting notes. I’ve only been tangently following its progress. However i remember three or four weeks ago it got sent to KS backers. Likewise the errata thread on the Exalted forum seems to have disappeared.
All in all I was just wondering if it was nearly ready for public release.
Being worked on developmentally. I’m guessing since Mirthful Mike isn’t actively making changes it fell off his radar- you’ll often see a project pop on and off depending on what he is doing with it this particular week.
That guy in the art up there looks just like the character ” Brian Topp” from the BBC’s “SPACED” (LOL)
I just wanted to say thank you and how appreciative I am for your time in posting on the forum about the situation with some comments on the Exalted 3rd Edition Kickstarter RichT. The level of vitriol, personal attacks, and wild accusations leveled at the development team and CCP about everything from the Anathema collaboration, the use of funds gained from the Kickstarter, and developer motivation on this project has been a frustrating experience for this long time Exalted fan. While I’ve never worked in the table top rpg industry I have worked in the brick and mortar book industry and some of the knowledge I gained from that has been helpful in waiting patiently for the book. Again, thank you for stepping and and taking the time to address the situation.
Fixed it for you, and thanks!
I am suddenly reminded why I hardly ever visit forums any more. Not these forums here – any forums ever. And I’m not trying to sound holier than thou. I am well aware that I can get caught up in that specific variety of forum toxicity myself if I linger long enough.
That said, my outlook on Exalted remains firmly positive.
Too true, Dawn, alas.
Rich and the whole OP team – a sincere thank you and *Slow Clap* of Awe™ at the phenomenal job you few people are doing to create so much incredible material for us, and in a transparent, engaging and thoroughly 21st century way. Toxic and destructive voices may be in the minority, but we’ve all experienced how they’re they’re disproportionately loud; there are so many of us who truly appreciate all the hard work you’re doing that we can see, and would be floored by all the harder work that you’re doing that we’re utterly unaware of. The quality of the content, the art, and the PoD are better than ever before in my 20 years of N/CWoD gaming. Thank you.
Thanks! Yes, we’re all aware that the negativity is often from a vocal minority, so we don’t sit here thinking that our whole community is against us, far from it.
But it is simply a fact that for a lot of us, particularly creative folks I’ve found, a negative comment hits with ten times the impact of a nice one. So if I want to actually learn something, improve something, or simply not discount a negative comment because there may indeed be something we need to know there, it is really an uphill battle to stay open to that when the comment is also insulting or nasty. Communication gets cut off.
Awesome, and I hope you can pop in more often.
Rich, I know you probably get asked this a lot, but ever since TOP came into being, which has been your favorite piece of work sofar that you have either done or seen ? And about Exalted, as I stated in the Mage FB page, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLpUev1FvS0 it will get done when it gets done and is GOOD. The best we can do is to nurture and believe in these people and one another.
Can you narrow it down to like a sub-category? Favorite art work, or favorite book design, or favorite game rules? Really, really hard to say. It’s like being asked which kid is my favorite. Plus, as Creative Director I set the early framework and direction of our projects, so very often my favorite is something we’re working on for next month or next year.
I was the guy who got the month suspension in that thread and, specifics of my opinions of the ban aside, the suspension has been stuck to and I will suck it up like an adult. There’s no need for people to defend me, so to speak, although it is appreciated I don’t think this is the place to do it necessarily.
Rich, I did not intend to invalidate your feelings in my post, and I feel that there was some misinterpretation down the line, but as I wrote it I have to take responsibility for it, and I apologise for any upset that I may have caused. I am still very excited for Ex3, I have a lot of respect for what you and the team does, and I hope we can forget this clash and move on amicably.
I don’t see any problems with welcoming you back to the forums, particularly after you’ve expressed that you do grasp how I could have read your post as an invalidation. That is much appreciated- thank you.
So, what is this Beast the Primordial thing about anyways?
People with predatorial souls that hunger for things like Power, Fear, Wealth, etc.. Their power stat is their Lair, their Fuel stat is also their Integrity stat, and if they aren’t careful, they attract Gaston-style “Heroes”, who attempt to kill the Beast, usually for the glory and fame of it.
Sounds good, you can count on me to get this thing funded.
It seens that next neek they will start open development here so stay tuned.
For what it’s worth, I never intended my question about the Anathema character generator to cause some huge internet dust-up. I don’t frequent the Exalted forum, and wasn’t even aware there *was* a fight about my post and Rich’s response until this week’s meeting notes comments.
The Anathema character toolkit was one of the parts of the kickstarter project that I was most excited about when I backed it, and having not heard anything at all about it’s progress, I just wanted an update.
I feel badly that this spiraled into something that costed the Dev team so much emotional energy.
Don’t feel bad. Yours was an honest question I answered honestly. Other people chose to take the worst possible read of our talk and spun that into a bad place.
Not gonna lie: I feel like this post has been a long time coming. I love the work you guys do and hate the flak you take for it. It’s why I just stopped going to the Exalted Kickstarter comments. You guys do awesome work, and while I might get frustrated with delayed deadlines or artistic direction, I still always eagerly await the next Onyx Path book.
Also, Sothis Ascended is a great piece, truly. I’m looking forward to putting it into use! Also a bit bittersweet to see the end of the line in sight for Mummy. It…kinda feels like the end of an Era, the last of the old…New…World of Darkness. Still, loving the 2nd editions so far. Can’t wait to see the next ones! Though I suppose I’ll have to…
Thanks, and I understand your feeling about the KS comments. Hopefully, with these weekly updates and a more welcoming Exalted forum here, you’ll get all the info you need.
I appreciate the work that you and the developers do Mr. Thomas and I look forward to offering personal thanks to yourself and anyone from the Onyx Path who attends GenCon.
Thanks, and I look forward to seeing you there!
As someone else mentioned above, this isn’t the first blog entry about people needing to stop giving you guys flak. It’s sad, really. One does not simply turn out a quality 400 page (or even 120 page) book overnight or even overmonth.
While I might not like the direction Blizzard has taken some of their games, their commitment to “it’s done when it’s done” means they are still making a quality product and I can respect and appreciate that.
Since Sothis Ascends was brought up as the last planned book, are there any plans for more at some point or perhaps an update to the GMC rules?
Sothis Ascends was the last originally planned book; Dreams of Avarice, Cursed Necropolis: Rio, an anthology and a novel were added by the Kickstarter. Dreams, Rio, and the anthology are all on the project status list, although the novel isn’t.
Correct. We have them listed based on the Dev reports Rollickin’ Rose gets each week.
We currently don’t have a planned Update to the WoD 2nd Edition Rules, but let’s see how things go. It might be best to look at a MtC 2nd Edition in a couple of years.
I like that Onyx Path is so open, very exciting to be able to speak to the writers and be a part of the process.
Could you tell when the kickstarter for Beast the Primordial will launch?
It should be the next one after the current Deluxe V20 Lore of the Clans KS. Earliest would be mid-May, and I doubt we’ll be ready to dive right into it that early.
Oh man! I am so going to be there for that one! 🙂
soo a friend of mine has mentioned there was another leak of ex3…. what follows was/is my inner battle.
“i shall sit here. and wait patiently. gazing longingly at EX3 and await its release.”
-fanboy pushes 4chan leak into my face-
“begone dear fanboy. i shall fangasm upon its release. and no time sooner. i shall then decide if it was worth the wait. this. and nothing more”
-fanboy pushes the new leak into face-
“begone dear fanboy. thing of evil, but fanboy still, quit my sight and let me sit here. waiting. ever waiting, get thee form off my chamber door, leave not the barest hint of a url as a token, of that lie thy skype hath spoken! Leave my vigil unbroken!—quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!”
o.o; you know think my temperance roll will fail if another “leak” occurs when i start quoting poe. i hope release is “soon” or ill end up going insane from resisting a “peak”.
I’m appreciating your restraint. Bear in mind that nobody except the Devs, Maria, and I have the completely finished text.
This calls for a drastic mesure. People. I have to admit something. I do not drink(*GASP!*). But, tonight. I will. RichT and everyone at OP, I have seen you all take the time to share your passion and even to answer to us time and again. And I have seen you work hard to produce some of the best books I’ve even seen published.
And tonight, I want to cheer you guys up. You do not in any way deserve flak in my book. So, tonight. I will drink to your health at 8PM. And if you so desire, I would be honored if you, wherever you may be, would drink one at 8PM your time too. And when you do, know that there’s an army of people at your side. Cheering you on.
I’m in. Cheers and thanks for your support!
It’s 8 over here! Cheers!
Anyone else who wants to cheer for OP, feel free to join me and post here! 🙂
Cheers!
Look up in the blog for a pic of my Moscow Mule-
Haha! Nice! Drinking straight out of the Baileys bottle myself. Nothing fancy, I, honestly wouldn’t know how (or what) to mix to save my life.
I understand that anonymous online bullying is the bane of creative people these days.
But what I see here is a cop-out.
Human beings on a creative journey can fail.
No applause for shit!
This post pisses me off like nothing else did for a long time.
What I see on this site is a hype machine.
It is an echo chamber that rewards those who conform with a feeling of participation.
I have not post on the Onyxpath site for a long time because I no longer care enough about WoD games.
As far as I am concerned, nWoD 2.0 and oWoD20 are not good enough that I’d want to play them and not bad enough that I’d rage against them.
Punk is dead on this site.
Goth has been turned into a joke anyway.
And I’ll not participate in mediocrity.
Goodbye.
Obviously, I disagree. Sorry to have pissed you off by demanding respect for myself and our creative teams regardless of your opinion on our output. Good bye.
Bye, Felicia.
How does one conform with a feeling of participation?
In unrelated news, were I a betting man, I’d bet that you have made very public and loud quitting posts of Facebook at least a dozen times.
It is unfortunately a truism that people are far more quick to criticize than to praise and that this becomes worse with the Internet. Not being interested in Exalted myself I didn’t know about the flak you and your team was receiving so I would like to just say to you that everything that I’ve seen so far has been well thought out, very interesting and great for gaming. Having read and played through the game lines since the original oWoD and now in the nWoD I have seen a constant improvement in the products produced. While there are some minor issues I would have with how game mechanics should be presented this does not detract from the fact that the games are very well done. It is unfortunate that there are people who can’t voice their concerns about such things without resorting to personal attacks against people who are producing such high quality work.
In regards to the criticisms this reminds me of something that I heard about bidding for business projects; everyone wants fast, cheap and high quality. They can pick two; they don’t get a third. Your company’s products are well-priced and high quality. It also reminds me of another piece of wisdom I heard regarding time spent on projects; no matter how fast something gets done someone is always going to complain it wasn’t fast enough but in the end what do you want? Do you want the people who complain about the time to complain and say it wasn’t that good or do you want them to complain about the time and then say but hey they did a fantastic job. You and your team are doing a fantastic job; keep it up.
That is a true truism that I also have used many times. Thanks!
^— Couldn’t agree more with Vedic on this. Quality and reasonable price over quicker, every time for me. I was also not aware of how negative some of the feedback had got for the same reasons. Keep doing what you’re doing Rich and Co, I can’t speak for others but I certainly appreciate all the work you put into your products as OPP and in the past as WW.
Very much appreciated, especially since you’re waiting for the Trinity Continuum relaunch and that has taken longer than we wanted as well.
No problem, and I’m sure it’ll be worth it 😀
These trolls are stupid. I had to wait almost a year to get my physical copy of Mummy. You guys were very open about why there were delays which quenched my anger and the book was so worth the delays. The quality was top notch. The art in my opinion was ever better than all my other WoD books and the color pallets/layout was great and really made the book better. You guys at this point only delay to give me something better and for that I thank you.
Thanks! That is the intention, certainly, and I hope we can keep delivering that level of quality AND get tighter on our estimates. But if one of those has to give, we’re sticking with keeping up the quality.
Sorry, but you have no idea. I had a quick look at the “Mummy: the Curse” Kickstarter.
The Kickstarter finished in January. In February, one month later, you had the PDF available to you in DriveThru. Five months after that, in July, the books had been printed. Due to an issue with the covers, the books needed to be rebound, which took 3 months, and delayed shipping until December, 11 months after the Kickstarter closed.
To put this in perspective, it is 22 months since the Exalted 3E Kickstarter finished, and we don’t have the PDF that you guys got after 1 month. We don’t even have a rough ballpark timeframe as to when we might get it. If we assume there are no printing issues such as you experienced, and taking the Mummy timelines as an example, the absolute earliest we could expect a physical copy would be in November – if the PDF copy came out this month. That would be 29 months, around two and a half years.
So yeah, the fact that you had to wait 12 months for a physical copy, while Exalted fans have had two wait twice that without even a digital copy, impresses nobody.
The Open Development, of which Onyx Path is justly proud, excludes Exalted – we get no insight into the mechanics of the system, and no teasers. Exalted was, and still is, Onyx Path’s most financially successful Kickstarter – I believe it’s still the most successful tabletop RPG on Kickstarter. But despite that, we’re told that we Exalted fans are vitriolic and negative, and that that is why the devs are not willing to give us nice things. In this case, “vitriolic and negative” is most definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy.
(Addressed to Hivemind, not Rich – I’m sure he does have an idea of those numbers)
No you were not told that all Exalted fans are vitriolic and negative. My point was very clearly that vitriolic and negative Exalted fans were a minority and very much not the typical fan. In fact, the typical fans are the ones who have written me in droves thanking me for this post and the ones on the Exalted forums. Why did you feel that that description was aimed at you?
“The Exalted community is toxic” is so commonly repeated these days it’s practically a meme. It was that “common knowledge” that I was characterising, not your post in particular.
I don’t have specific posts to quote at the moment, but I remember at the start of the Kickstarter, when the devs released a couple of Charms, we were told they held off on releasing any more because of the community’s reaction. I’ve also heard that the reason the dev’s are so hard on not wanting any crunch previewed is that they don’t want the Exalted community’s reaction to colour the project – although I honestly can’t remember if that was based on a Dev statement, or is merely heresay.
Rich, in answer to your question, which is your favorite artwork, then book design and finally followed by rules..
So in any attempt to narrow these down, I’m going to stick with things people have seen, and give a big warning that I love them all, and I need to exclude the Bradstreet fulls for V20, because beyond just enjoying Tim’s art they feature some friends as models and that just tickles me. Ron Spencer’s Red Talons piece from W20 is a fav, and Mark Kelley’s Salubri from V20 Dark Ages too (but don’t tell Neall). The cover for the God Machine Chronicle by Sam Araya. Mirthful Mike’s design for M20 are spot on and evoke the same combination of nostalgia and new excitement as both V20 and W20, but they’re just a tad more Mage-arific. (What I mean is that the design contributes to the overall feel of the book in a way that is appropriate for Mage). I love the addition to the classic rules of the Conditions. Expect to see a coherent base system with additional aspects to the system that enable even more back and forth between players and Storyteller like that in the “Sardonyx” System.
I’m glad I’ve had no cause to frequent the Ex 3 Kickstarter or forum as I find things like this really distasteful.
It’s one thing to have a genuine query but it sounds like things have descended into total trolling.
Still, I’m no angel when it comes to things like this.
I remember sending Rich a rather heated email over the delays in Werewolf 20th delivery; something which actually was completely out of his hands.
Rich responded like a true gentleman and I regret sending that email even today.
I moment of weakness on my part I guess.
Still, we live and learn.
In a more upbeat vein; ridiculously overjoyed at how projects are coming along.
Super excited about Mage 20.
Don’t worry about it. I think trolling isn’t quite the issue, at least I hope it’s not, but just that some frustrated folks are striking out beyond what I, and our team here, are comfortable with. Even beyond whether we deserve insults for trying to do our best work, the nastiness has contributed to an overall feeling on our EX forums that makes it nigh impossible to have a reasonable conversation like the one you and I had.
Thanks Rich.
If there is one thing I’ve learned it’s that you need to look at the big picture before sounding off.
Onyx Path’s transparency is incredible and I think people need to acknowledge that.
Without sounding soppy I believe the IP’s couldn’t be in safer hands.
You guys make dreams come true and I for one am a very happy fan.
August Personage of Jade’s speed and thank you.
Such behaviour both baffles and morbidly fascinates me. I would consider Onyx Path to be a model of the modern publishing house that has adapted to the reality of digital distribution. If a ‘professional’ company is desired, look no father than WotC, whom still have not released the 5ed of DnD in digital format due to whatever corporate callisthenics are occurring in the background, which they will never publicly disclose, when companies not even half their size can put out a PDF and still give bricks and mortar stores a month or two to make their margins.
You have had to sing for your supper of the past year. However, you have sung extremely well. Mummy the Curse and Demon the Descent remain my favour RPG behind (either) Mage. Blood and Smoke is the first time I have found vampires as characters compelling and now Werewolf the Forsaken finally stands strong and distinct from its predecessor.
Thanks so much and I’m very glad the the new editions are working for you. I dunno if we’re a model of anything, and I know we still have plenty of fine tuning to how we do things, but your good opinion is very appreciated.
So, anyone who recognizes my poster name knows that I’m a big Exalted fan, and I was the one who did the Exalted 2nd fan map, like Stephen did the 1st edition. I like Exalted, I want to like Exalted.
Part of my problem is that the Exalted kickstarter has been…well, badly handled. To me, it’s a simple issue of misrepresentation. We were told, when the Kickstarter began, that the book was nearly done, that we were backing a deluxe presentation of same. We’ve seen so many Kickstarters from OP. We have a good sense of how long it takes, BECAUSE of the open development we’ve seen. What we’ve seen, and heard, doesn’t match up. We know they went back to go back finish writing, and rewrite portions. So the book was not in the state we were told.
At this point, the date has been missed by on the order of a year and a half. In any environment, that’s kind of crazy. Order a pizza…if it’s a half-hour late, you’re calling the store to demand accountability. If you have contractors working on your house and they go a month over, again, there are serious issues. I think a lot of the issues come from an inability to see the other side.
Rich commented that he and the creative team feel like we’re invalidating their issues, telling them they have to suck it up and take it. But what about us? A year and a half past, and we say “But you have our money and we have no product, and practically no information.” And we are told “Well, the dev team is doing closed development, we don’t have a product, you’ll have it when you have it.” In other words, “shut up and take it”.
It goes both ways. If you want us to respect you as creators, and be accepting of your issues, then you need to be accepting of ours and respect us, as your customers. Nowhere in the world do you give people money, and wait 18 months past delivery date, and that be an acceptable thing. It’s time for something that addresses our issues.
Let me touch on your points in the order you raise them:
Exalted was our sixth Kickstarter, and only Hunters Hunted 2 had the complete text and every one of the previous KSs had different writing and development times, so I don’t know quite how you were able to set an expectation with that historical info. But that’s fine, I don’t need to. At the time of the KS, the information I had was that the book was close to completion, and that was the information I acted on, estimated with, and reported to all of our backers. As a backer, you know that in August, at GenCon, the Devs came to me to request that they be allowed to redo the entire Charms section. They had hit that as a blocker over and over again as they were trying to finish the book because the original way they had handled the Charms just didn’t work for them. That rewrite was hardly just a portion: the Charms, as I explained in numerous messages, are the heart of the book and connect to or effect just about every other section of the book. Again, that was communicated to you, as a backer, in the Updates and additional messages. So at the time of the KS, the book was in the state you were told. In August, I gave the Devs the go-ahead to take the time to make the core book for the Exalted line better. You may certainly disagree with that decision, but it was not a secret and you were made aware of it and our reasons for it as soon as we could figure out just what the ramifications were.
In the creation of a game book that needs to revitalize an entire line, this sort of delay does happen. We released the original Exalted about a year later than planned. The difference is that most of those waiting for it had not any idea that the delay was occurring. Which is not an excuse so much a refutation of your “pizza” analogy. Game books aren’t pizzas. And it is true that we are pretty far out there in terms of whether such a project wouldn’t have been shut down by the powers that be at other game companies, but we believe in Exalted and in the Devs. I am well aware at how frustrated some backers are and have never denigrated them for that. I have never belittled them for feeling like they’ll never get this thing they pledged for. I can see the other side quite clearly because it is my side as well. Do you honestly think I like having to wait for this project to get out either?
At no point did any of us tell you to shut up and take it. To break it down: “Well, the dev team is doing closed development”. The Devs have explained over and over again that they are not comfortable with releasing teasers beyond what they have. They never said that you personally are not worthy of more info, they said that these teasers taken out of context do more harm than good in their opinion. That was not a new attitude, they talked about that during the KS. Do you want me to rip the text from their hands and post sections against their will? Next: “we don’t have a product”. That’s right, we don’t, because we are in the process of making one. We did however send out the extra products as they were able to be made without a completed EX3. Finally: “you’ll have it when you have it.” If by that you mean the way I stopped estimating a finish date because every single estimate got blown out of the water around the time when John got sick, then once again please recall that I posted that I was going to stop giving those dates until I could do so with any degree of certainty. I never said that I was stopping because you backers are all annoying, I said I was stopping because it was ridiculous to keep posting them and missing them and that it added to everyone’s frustration.
So where is the lack of respect you see or feel from us? You’ve been kept in the loop with every development and I acknowledged and apologized for the situation each time things got further stretched out. When the Devs felt that they had something to share with backers, I posted it. When we got art in, I showed a whole bunch of that. Your whole point seems to be: I don’t believe anything you say because you didn’t hit that estimated date you made at the beginning of the Kickstarter. Everything you say isn’t true, isn’t a reason, it’s all a rip-off because you didn’t hit that estimated date. And because you didn’t we all get free license to rip you a new one whenever you post anything. I wouldn’t have had the KS when I did if I knew then what I know now, if I’d known about the need to change the Charms, if I’d known how long that would take or how that would increase the word count and inflate every other phase of creating this book, or if I’d known how debilitated John was getting as his condition made itself known. All of those things happened, and short of hopping in a Tardis, I can’t change them. What we can do is to press forward with our goal of creating the finest quality Exalted core book ever, and to take each step we need to take to insure that.
The respect we have for you is not delivering to you a rushed out, half-ass, low quality book just because of an estimate made at the start of a Kickstarter.
All right, allow me to rebut, if you please. You say that the previous five Kickstarters all had very different writing and development times. I’m quite certain that’s true. What I’m saying is that in the time we have been waiting on Exalted, we have seen other books go from conceptualization, through development, to publication, to being in the customers’ hands, all while still waiting for Exalted. Could I have known, historically (as in when I backed) how long it took? Not necessarily. Can I look back now, after seeing other books, and get a feel for how long the process takes? Of course I can. Anyone can, BECAUSE of the transparency of the development.
Am I sorry for the developers? Of course I am. They (and you) have had to take an inordinate amount of heat over this. Am I sorry for John because of his health problems? Of course I am. You’d have to be a monster not to feel for a fellow human being, especially a fellow member of a niche community, when they’re in pain and stress.
But then we come to the comment I don’t think I can agree with you on. It’s been said that artists can make bad businesspeople, and businesspeople can make bad artists. Creative thinking and obsessive bureaucratic thinking often don’t mesh. One thing that I’m not sure is realized is this: Onyx Path is a business. And you are both the public face of that business and the primary employee. In other words, “the buck stops here”, with you. You even said as much; the Dev team asked you for permission to redo the charms section.
I’m going to go back to an analogy. This time, let’s use a restaurant. Another customer bumps my waiter on their way to deliver my food, and the food is knocked to the ground. Is it my fault? Well, of course not. I was sitting here waiting for my food. Is it the waiter’s fault? No, the other customer bumped into them. Is it the businesses’ fault? No. They can’t control random chance. But the simple fact exists that the restaurant will have to take steps to make the situation right, at least if they want to ensure good will and repeat business from the customer whose food was spilled.
In this analogy, the Dev team is the waiter, the backers are the customer whose food was spilled, and you are the restaurant manager. John being sick wasn’t in his control, or yours. Even the need to redo a section isn’t really in your control; if it needed doing it needed doing. What IS in your control is how you react to it. To continue the analogy, you are losing the good will (and possibly repeat business) of these customers, by choosing not to act in a way that would restore that good will. You asked if I wanted you to take sections of the text and post it against the Dev’s wills? Yeah…I kind of do. I want you, as a good manager of a business I’d like to support, to take steps to restore that good will.
We, as backers, have been told “It’s in layout” since before the end of the year. No real change, just move a word here or a word there, and “it’s in layout”. From our perspective, since we don’t have all your info, that is essentially “no progress has been made”. Give us SOMETHING to talk about, something to focus on, other than “holy crap, 18 months and I still don’t have my book”. Release a charm once a week, to backers only. Give us more detail on the updates, tell us “Okay, it’s in layout and chapters 1-3 of 10 are now done.” so that we can have a sense of progress and forward momentum. Give us previews of a system; explain Social Combat, or anything to make the backers feel that “we’re sorry your food was spilled, and we’ll have to remake it. But you know what, dessert’s on us by way of apology.” Because I see and hear an awful lot of “these unexpected problems cropped up and so it’s not our fault”, but not a whole lot of “we want to keep your good will, so here’s what we’re going to do for you.”
Most of what people want is information. Transparency. Updates. I think that Onyx Path has done remarkably well with that, as a whole, as a company. The Exalted Devs don’t want any information leaked; that’s their choice. But YOU, as a manager, at some point have to make hard choices, like “do I do what my devs want and keep an information blackout” or “do I do something to make my customers happy”. And sometimes those may be mutually exclusive, irreconcilable concepts. That’s a horrible place to be in; a lose-lose situation. But sometimes, when running a business, that’s what you’re faced with.
I find your analogy flawed, but your point is made. You have the right to disagree with how I’ve handled the EX3 KS, and my business. While I have no intention of forcing the EX Devs, or any of our creative teams, into doing things with their creations that they are not comfortable with, I have and will consider other ways that we can open up a bit more and get our backers some more concentrated attention. Thanks.
GamernGeek – you said :”One thing that I’m not sure is realized is this: Onyx Path is a business.”
Wow. Are you kidding me? Just….wow. That comment is revealing indeed. Spoken like someone looking in from the outside onto something they have minimal understanding of. Sheesh.
There’s always, of course, work any business owner can do to improve their business – and I can see continuous comments to that effect by RichT.
Trawling through various comments after reading that comment of yours I see Rich demonstrating ably time and again that he understands far better than most posters not only how much Onyx Path is a business, but is clearly creating creating a business that is viable commercially and creatively for everyone involved so they can continue to produce great products for as long as possible.
Sure, I may disagree with some creative choices here and there (that’s subjectivity for ya!), but to imply Rich and the OPP gang do not realize that OPP is a business is, frankly, laughable 🙂
Just to build on the not-quite-apt ‘business’ analogy thought, I’d suggest a little bit of a reevaluation of just what the Kickstarter process actually MEANS. That is, as a backer of a project, I am not actually a customer. I’m an investor.
Yes, investments do come with expectations of how both sides work, but the thing that differentiates an investor from a customer is the acceptance of risk. Investments are inherently risky, be they a startup company, a stock IPO, or even a Kickstarter. Heck, at the bottom of every Kisckstarter we’ve had is a ‘Risks and challenges’ heading.
I’m not saying the EX3 project is wonderful and flawless, oh heavens no! Rather, I’m saying that when I ponied up my money, I knew there were risks, and I still feel that it’s an investment worth making. No one needs to agree with me, of course, but I have never felt disrespected by any of these projects.
And to this I’d also like to add that we’re talking about Exalted here. There’s, to my knowledge, nothing quite like it out there. Unlike pretty much every other RPG out there, Exalted is a very precise, extremely tactical system. The wonderfully grand design of interlocking systems, mechanics and concepts means that if something is faulty, the entire game line suffers. I remember Lunar fans being very angry about this since the first edition, for example. And the devs have talked a LOT about their approach and philosophy to this problem.
So you can’t just equate Exalted to another RPG. The core book will lay down foundation for a dozen different splats that literally, mechanically depend on it to be a well oiled machine that purrs and sings when put in use. It’s a heroic feat that I’m quite certain we haven’t seen before in the RPG industry. There’s no blueprint for doing things of that magnitude.
I tried to use the metaphor of trying to fix a mechanical clock while it was running, and while it is also connected to ten other clocks that also have to be kept running. Dunno if that gets the complicated nature of the EX3 Devs’ job across, but something like that but even more complex.
To be fair, I don’t mind folks objecting to the “investor” model either because I think Kickstarter’s greatness is because it’s a little bit investing, a little bit pre-order, a little bit straight-up fundraising, a little bit demo-reel. There’s a great combination of things that it is, so it is hard to pin it down to an old system because it is something not quite anything seen before. Kickstarter and those who follow its basic format exploded because it’s a new thing and we all have to get our heads around that. If you are angry because it doesn’t function like that pre-order you made on Amazon, for example, then it’s you who don’t grasp what Kickstarter is and maybe it’s not right for you if you can’t adapt to that. Certainly, I and Onyx are still learning just what KS really can and can’t and shouldn’t be expected to do and we’ve done 15 of them.
I dont mind investing, as I believe in OPP and the people in it. I would rather have a good product when it is finished and done correctly then a half assed job that would reflect poorly on say Rich, Satryos or whoever for example. For those of you who want an example of a rushed job, look at The Akashic Brotherhood first edition.
Hi Rich,
Given that the Kickstarter for EX3 was some time ago and OPP has had 9 more projects funded through KS, how woulkd you say the approach at OPP with regards to KS changed during that time? What lessons that were learned were directly applied to (then future) KS.
I’m also curious about the nWOD Bloodlines: The Chosen book (You are listed creative director) where in the introduction there was a section about the contest for choosing the bloodlines then a bit at the end that said “the stuff that didn’t make it in this book will be into a PDF for download from white-wolf.com” Obviously this was right around the CCP purchase and things change. Just something I’ve always wondered about – did the PDF ever see the light of day?
My question is about Scion 2e. I know the core rules are In Development and you want these ironed out before you give it to us. With that being said, is there any idea as to when Scion 2e will be out, not looking for a specific date just a time of a year. Also, is Origins and Hero going to drop at the same time or is Hero going to drop after Origins?