Lots and lots of spinning plates right now.
I’m in charge of a few projects at the moment, V20 Tal’Mahe’Ra, Changeling: The Lost 2nd Edition, and some things I can’t talk about yet. But I’m in the preliminary discussion stage of World of Darkness: Hurt Locker. One thing I’ve really wanted to do with Hurt Locker is start SUPER early in the development cycle, and both start and maintain a public, open development presence the entire time. This just just about the earliest I can start, because I haven’t even begun my outline, vision statement, or anything like that yet. Violence in games is a huge thing for me. I have very personal experiences with real world violence, and I think it has an important place in fiction. I think in particular, it has an important place in horror fiction.
So I want to poke and prod. What do you want out of a book about violence in the World of Darkness? Do you want to see how violence is used in fiction, and thus in the fiction of games? Storytelling advice for how to make violence resonate? A variety of organizations and people, and both how and why they use violence? Systems to reflect the horror of violent encounters with normal people? Conditions for permanent effects from injury? Conditions for the trauma caused by both committing and being victim of violence?
I expect to include numerous Merits. I’ve been asked a lot about Fighting Styles for World of Darkness Second Edition. So that’ll happen. I know we want to hit on expanded equipment lists. That’ll happen. I also think we need to hit on some of the interesting topics raised in The God-Machine Chronicle, like Beaten Down and Down and Dirty Combat. We might talk about violence as a coercive action in Social Maneuvering.
There’s a million options, but only about one hundred thousand words to explore them. What do you want to see?
Comments
125 responses to “Open Development – World of Darkness: Hurt Locker”
I am very interested in this book and look forward to its publication.
Merits and Fighting Styles would be my greatest interest with the book. I have really liked how the fighting styles shown so far in 2e have been sufficiently different from one another, and there really isn’t just one or two which stand out as “the best.” So, I am looking forward to more options.
I would love to see tactics discussed, and how they change based on environment and objective.
Good luck!
I think Conditions representing trauma, both physical and emotional are top notch.
More merits are super good.
Combat hacks for the new system would be excellent.
Expanded equipment would be a Godsend! I love all the cool equipment in 2e.
I think the organizations would be cool, but those sorts of things should be the lowest priority.
I’d love storytelling advice on how the violence resonates, too. A good essay on how to pick when to use Down & Dirty versus when to use full rules, and how to make it feel awesome and desperate and violent would be great.
I’ll second combat hacks, and maybe “group fighting” streamlining methods.
I had a problem with “Traps” in armory, so I’d love to see unimprovised trap system. Think the laser room in Resident Evil, or the traps in the movie Cube. These traps are “dodgeable” and many times built in so harder to find.
I don’t know exactly what I want, but the thing that I remember that really hit home for me was seeing a belt sander statted out as a weapon. Chainsaws are common enough, but that one made me cringe and just seemed more real. Horror in general involves more improvised, desperate weapons than fully automatic assault-rifles, so I think more touches like that are what I want.
A nailgun ala the Strain
The horror of violence for the average citizen would be vastly appreciated.
More to come as I chat with people.
An exploration of some of the other skills(You know, asides from the big ones) in combat has been brought to my attention by an old player of mine.
I want to second this one. I sometimes have a hard time coming up with less combat-focusd people to do.
One of my characters had a very unique but thematically-tight Fighting Style with the old rules for creating your custom FS.
So… I’ll vote for whatever you have in store for F.Styles.
Tilts, lots of tilts.
I’m interested in the Fighting styles
Set pieces. Not a big list of specific ones so much as an examination of how to put them together in engaging and entertaining ways, with a few examples. Circumstances which complicate violent situations, violent altercations where fighting is likely but not the victory condition at hand, etc. This could probably be combined with a more general examination of the many ways to use violence in a game where the goal is not simply to destroy or beat down the other dudes, reasons to de-escalate, etc. I find even for people who understand the importance of these ideas intellectually, there’s a reflex in the back of the brain that still thinks of deadly altercations as things unto themselves.
I have to second this. I don’t so much want a “Book o’ Stuff” for my players to spend hours pouring through in search of that perfect merit or piece of equipment that they just HAVE to have. I want advice on how to make combat interesting, engaging, and something that contributes to the narrative. Coming out of 1E rule-sets, its hard to really engage the half-combat (I can’t even pull the names off the top of my head because I don’t engage them) systems. And there really isn’t good advice for that (I can’t even think of a good Theory resource for violence in fiction, honestly).
So yeah, like maybe 75% toolkit for making combat meaningful and violence that contributes to a narrative continuity and then 25% stuff, with emphasis on the weapons that people in desperate situations without formal violence training rely on.
Thirded.
Consequences.
Styles and Equipment.
Hacks to let players customize games to suit themselves.
Very excited about this!
Expanded equipment/weapons, fighting styles, and merits all sound wonderful.
I would definitely be interested in seeing organizations as well.
Will there be info for each line for possible special equipment/artifacts that can be used for them? Like, maybe a section for Hunter on special relics or weapons used by different tier groups. Section for Demon, Mummy, etc.
It’s very much “blue book”, so I don’t want to include anything for the various game lines that can’t be easily used by pretty much all of them. I also can’t develop with the assumption a given reader has any/all other books.
That makes sense. Figured I’d ask, anyway. Can’t wait to see what you do with this, David. Probably my most anticipated book listed in the brochure for next year.
Speaking of this, though, I’d append to my set pieces/shoot-to-wound request above: I would very much like that advice to be relevant to characters with supernatural Merits, monster characters, etc., in addition to more standard blue-book high-stakes mortal games. Not so much naming specific splats or powers as just providing for characters who are particularly well-equipped to wage and survive combat, and ways to complicate their considerations even if their opposition isn’t as fearsome in a straight fight.
Would be very keen on seeing organizations and people along with the hows and whys of their using violence. And very much on the horror of violence against and between normal people. I think those would do wonders for the book.
Personally, I want to see a lot of crunch, that is, mostly mechanics. I still want some story hooks and discussion of things, but I’d like it to weigh more heavily on mechanics. Fighting styles are good, but I’d also love to see more tilts and conditions, some more options for fighting, and similar.
Since it IS a core book, maybe something on violent entities within the WoD in general; spirits, ghosts, and angels that have a focus on causing violence and the ways they might be dealt with. It’d be interesting, I think.
I’d also love to see some supernatural add ins, ‘relics’ or other miscellaneous magic items that are relevant, locations that have odd mechanics for fighting, things like that.
Yes yes yes. I know a lot of folks might get antsy about to much attention to the god machine or angels but this comment got me. Some focus and attention to angels and violence in the schemes of the god machine would tickle me. Chapter intro fiction on Triage PLEASE!! Relics, merits, wep stats, tilts and conditions also sound grand. But man oh man dem angels. Side note are we going to see a 2e book similar to “Antagonists”? Less voodoo and ghosts more mystery cults and crazed clock work constructs?
The Morrigan. Sekhmet. Kali.
fighting style and weapons. Let’s cut the crap from this book. Let’s forget the tears and the nice talk about how violence is bad and whole part which will make this book cost me about 100 bucks to bring to my country (fyi B&S printed are costing me 130 bucks) just to trash half of this with useless things which my players are going to skip and keep me wondering why not just get a bootleg version of this.
That makes sense. Figured I’d ask, anyway. Can’t wait to see what you do with this, David. Probably my most anticipated book listed in the brochure for next year.
That’s weird. I didn’t mean to post that twice.
What I meant to post was:
@eavatar – I think they still sell Guns and Ammo at local bookstores. Pick that up, as well as a copy of Kung Fu, and you’ll be good to go!
Yeah. I can’t realistically fill a book of that size with equipment lists and fighting styles. A large portion of my audience wants other things. I can’t eschew their interests to approach the book with a single-minded attitude. I owe it to my readers to appeal to multiple sensibilities here. A lot of people have no interest in expansive equipment lists and fighting styles. Numerous people have told us that equipment and fighting Merits in God-Machine Chronicle were wasted space.
That said, threatening to pirate a copy of my work if you don’t get exactly what you want is far from the best way to pose your interests. I understand the concerns with international shipping; I live in Japan, getting books here is costly at best. I’ve switched to almost exclusively digital for that reason. Unfortunately, people opting not to purchase books they’re reading is one of many factors that contribute to those costs being so prohibitive.
Thank you for your comment.
The last thing my players need are more merits based solely on combat, but they are fun. What my players need is a vast equipment section and conditions for trauma from being a victim and committing violence.
I’d like to see a way to reduce combat encounters to a single roll.
There already is a system for that. It’s called “Down and Dirty Combat.” It reduces a combat scene to a single contested roll. It’s in the GMC rules update and Blood & Smoke.
There already is a system for that. It’s called “Down and Dirty Combat.” It compresses a combat scene to a single contested roll. It’s in the GMC rules update and Blood & Smoke.
(Apologies for the double-reply. I’m on a tablet browser on a spotty wifi connection so it was acting up.)
I’d like to see a hack (or at least some advice) on how to run a game with fighting, but without initiative – sort of like Dungeon World.
I’d also maybe like to see a chapter that talks about building effective enemies. I kind of have a reputation for never really hurting my player characters. The PCs tend to win fairly quickly.
Antagonist design advice would be excellent!! A lot of my games feature around violence and having to use violence to resolve conflicts. A section on how to make the antagonist someone to give the PC’s pause would be excellent.
Agreed!
I’ll second this. I’d love to see a Dungeon World way of running combat on WoD. Short of that, I’d like to see something like the Legendary Actions of D&D 5th edition, where an opponent can take an action after each pc attack. This would help a boss fight actually feel like a boss fight and give the PCs more reason to be fearful of him.
I’d like to see hacks for changing up how combat works
It also might be handy to have a few statblocks of archetypal characters.
The one I’ve used the most is the “cultist combatant” from Mummy: the Curse.
“Cultist Combatants
Initiative: 4
Defense: 2
Attack: 8(L) from a large handgun, or 9(L) with the 9
again rule from a shotgun
Health: 7”
With simple mechanics, I can spend less time assigning attributes and equipment, and calculating modifiers and more time fleshing out the NPC’s character motivations and story.
I did a pretty big section like that in V20 Dark Ages. I always like those, because it helps to ease the burden.
I did something like that for a plot I planned for my online game, so players could run short plots for each other:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14ARNwYJk7f-zWr0gFNr3O1l9ZDv1W1rIwAhGcBYhAVY/edit?usp=sharing
This specifically focused on simple team dynamics.
Very cool stuff!
I especially like this: “Everyone else in the club is just a normal, card-carrying member. Use three dice for most actions, five if it’s something they should be remarkable at. They do not engage on any in-depth level. If they do, they get upgraded to one of the other three roles. “
Statblocks for a lot of standard enemies and some more dangerous animals would be great.
Probably with a “power level” number so I can see easily how powerful this NPC is.
If you add a table with a rough estimation on “if you have X players with in average Z XP you could have a moderate fight against a combined power level of Y”
– add a power level for every foe more than the number of players
– add one power level if one player has more than 6 attack dice
…
This would be very helpful (of course it is only a rough estimation but it would make my job as a storyteller easier)
An exploration of why White Room Combat is not the paradigm in the nWoD.2, and how to think outside the round-turn-hit-next turn box.
Also, antagonists focused on violence.
This is a huge goal for me.
I know that the subjectivity of it could be prohibitive but… perhaps some tips/mechanics/hacks on creative use of mental and social skills in combat.
That’s a rather cool idea. Thank you.
Very good idea. I can definitely see how skills like Intimidation, Medicine, Science, Occult, Empathy, Streetwise, Subterfuge, etc., can be very useful in combat (or to initially avoid or ultimately flee combat).
Yeah, that would be awesome! I love the idea of knowledge being just as much of a weapon in battle as your sword (RE: Order of the Stick, Roy vs Thog round 2).
This is actually a very good idea!
Yeah, that would be awesome! I love the idea of knowledge being just as much of a weapon in battle as your sword (RE: Order of the Stick, Roy vs Thog round 2).
I’ll try to make this my last comment. 🙂
It might be useful to include advice or mechanics regarding combat in alternate venues, such as play by post games or mush chat based games. Heck, it might even be handy to update the battle-grid optional rules from Mirrors. I don’t favor it, but I play with a few people that have a hard time visualizing tactics without such a tool.
As I can only play through PbP, this type of guidance would be a god-send. Even if it only gets drafted but has to be cut and released as a forum post or something as I’ve seen with the odd item here or there, it would be good.
+1
1. Optional and expanded rules for injury and healing that are more realistic, maybe with Conditions representing the permanent effects of lethal injury to the human body, rules for bleeding-out, and the immediate need for specialized medical care like surgery in order to survive, no less even begin to recover from, being shot, stabbed or gutted by the claws and fangs of unimaginable horrors.
2. Actual rules for attempting decapitation, one of the classic forms of killing supernatural beasts (particularly vampires).
3. Some background about police and security services (and depending on jurisdiction, military deployment in civilian areas), both in the USA and other major countries. I find that TV and movies have really screwed-up many peoples’ understanding of basic police procedures and organizations, the type of weapons that are actually carried, both firearms and non-lethal, the laws concerning the actual use of weapons by both police and civilians, and the scrutiny that alleged self-defense or treatment of suspected gunshot wounds will receive even in locales with liberal firearm laws.
Emphasis on how the USA is not the Wild West, the streets do not run red with the blood of children, the military is only deployed on US soil in the most extreme emergencies, and how violent encounters, whether rural or urban, will almost definitely be noticed and likely prosecuted. Of course, information concerning other countries like the UK, China, Japan, Germany, India, Columbia, Mexico, etc., with very different conceptions of violence, weapons, police competence and corruption, and criminal justice and human rights, should also be included.
4. When witnesses view or hear multiple gunshots, horrid screams, strange shadows and blood-soaked, gory scenes, the authorities will investigate. Some storytelling advice about how to deal with these issues, including the mark on your now permanent police file and resulting psych evaluation when you tell your friendly FBI agent that you had to kill that woman because she was possessed by evil spirits or that strangely decayed cadaver with a protruding stake with your fingerprints was really a vampire out to drink your blood! The cost and difficulty of retaining counsel and dealing with the criminal justice system also deserves mention.
I was just going to comment the same as the fourth item. What happen when a character kills a NPC? do that NPC have family or friends? What the police thinks about it? How can we know how close they are to the characters?
How do you explain that you shoot one person and burn it down another one because they were “supernatural beings”?
We have now how is the damage system, but is a narrative system, so, what happen if I shot a wherewolf in the head with a normal bullet? Yeah, it’s not a silver bullet, but, it’s a headshoot so no matter how fast you healing factor is yo have to stay on the ground until you heal it. And, how much damage is enough to do that?
The police background is a must have, but I think we don’t need a A4 page to tell us one police department. If we have a police system, you can tell us how many bonus they have to search our players (or whatever you like). A short description and there we go. In Five rings leyend you have a lot of families and you have a short description and de bonus, it’s enough. We get a lot to choose ^^
add to 1) & 2)
I’d love to see rules and conditions for targeting body parts – so there is an easy to see mechanical reason to do so.
Any ideas on how aggravated damage to a certain body part could result in permanent conditions would be great as well.
I’d love to see a heavy focus on the reasons people and characters engage in violence. This could both be an interesting look into the psychology of violence, and also makes for a lot of great segues into the mechanical content.
It would also just make for a really cool way to organize the book. You could start with an introduction about how there is always a reason for violence and why it’s so important that the first step in combat in second edition is to determine what each party wants out of the combat – both the mechanical reasons like determining if Down and Dirty is appropriate and if Beaten Down can be applied, as well as the narrative importance of knowing why these characters are engaging in violence. From there, each chapter can focus on one reason for violence. Give advice on how that kind of violence affects the narrative of the game, introduce a few mechanics that relate to that kind of violence, and maybe give a couple of optional rules hacks that shift the gameplay of combat to emphasize themes associated with that kind of violence.
For a few examples of reasons for violence that could be discussed and what mechanics might be related to them: violence as a means to an end is probably the most common type of combat in the World of Darkness by default, and can lead into a closer look at the Beaten Down rules, and at violence as Hard Leverage in the Social Maneuvering system. Violence in the interest of self-defense is another very common use for combat in the game, and can lead into some of the physical hazards of combat such as Tilts. Violence as a method of asserting power or control opens the door for tackling very serious subjects through the game, and is also a great place to introduce Conditions that represent the psychological tolls violence can play on a person. Violence as sport can give a welcome break from what is otherwise often a very dark subject, and is also the raison d’etre of several Fighting Styles.
There are a lot of other subjects that could be covered in this manner, but these are just a few ideas of how you might be able to present both the examination of violence and the mechanics of combat in an integrated way that works well with the existing combat mechanics in second edition.
A consistent criticism I’ve been told of the 1E nWoD is that damage has no value. You take damage, you gain negatives, but the individual hit: a baseball bat to the head, an individual bullet that hurts but doesn’t kill, is meaningless because somehow this means that a given character is a bullet sack for absorbing damage outside of cinematic games that are light on mechanics. I don’t agree with this assertion, but I would like to see more active counter-argument to it in text. Its not enough to say how damage, tilts, and violence work mechanically in the nWoD, but effort should be made to say what that means as well.
That’s what tilts do in 2e. You hit someone’s head and they lose their turn if the blow was strong enough. You hit someone’s eyes and they get a -5 to all rolls that require vision, and lose all their defense. You hit someone’s arm and they straight-up can’t use it. Get both arms and they can’t do anything with their arms.
So many good comments here for the book. I just want to add my support for sections on the horror of violence and the repercussions/consequences of violence, be it fluffy editorials and/or mechanical such as conditions. Hopefully both. Ways to bring these ideas to the table either as a player or a ST.
I’d like to see a discussion of the narrative implications of damage, not just with mechanical support via conditions but also as Storyteller advice. It’s currently very easy to just go, Oh you take 3 levels of lethal damage, and not really have a sense of what that means to the character suffering it.
I’d also like to see some space devoted to helping Storytellers figure out good ways to achieve a fun level of challenge in a combat encounter, as combat is pretty swingy under GMC rules, which, coupled with the inherent ambiguity that the system has in terms of comparing combat strength, can make it harder than it should be for new Storytellers to really get a good sense as to whether or not a particular NPC or group of NPCs is going to get slaughtered in a few turns or has a good chance of causing a party wipe.
Having a section that is a collection of ways to run combats in less traditional ways could be interesting too.
Really, I want as much Storyteller advice as possible. nWoD’s relationship with violent conflict is pretty complicated, and having a more explicit exploration of that complexity would, I think, be invaluable, especially for newer ST’s.
Looking forward at the second edition, I’d honestly like to see more
Tilts and Conditions that re-enforce horrific effects of combat, not to mention long term effects on body and mind.
Guide lines for a narritive ideas on how people harden in response to volience and trama would also be useful.
I’d also like the prototype weapon mechanics re-visited to also reflect jury rigging and improvisational weapons and modifications.
Not to mention another look at the bleeding edge of weaponry both lethal and non-lethal in the 21st century.
(I know one of my player had complaints about Anti-Material Rifles before armory reloaded came out, but I told him he should bring that up himself)
I want to see how you would have treated health as informed by conditions alone. I want to see more fighting styles. I want to see Down and Dirty combat expanded to be used to depict grand-scale, warfare like engagements (the Horror of War, if you would…)
That’s about what I want. More tilts, more conditions… I’d love to see them too. I wanna see someone getting crippled because I targeted their lower spine with the claws of my werewolf.
“I want to see how you would have treated health as informed by conditions alone. ”
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
I think it would be fantastic to see some supernatural merits that specifically apply to combat, if that makes sense. Along the vein of the psychic merits and such, but things that are specifically related to combat, sort of like physical adepts from Shadowrun (obviously less powerful). Just, people who are able to tap into the supernatural aspects of the world to augment their fighting.
I think that would be nifty.
Also, merits. Tons and tons of merits of all kinds. I <3 me some merits. More merits = more customization options. Aww yeah gurl.
Ha. This was an idea I was just talking about with my wife. I felt like there’s this dissociation between combat and supernatural stuff, that they’re too divergent in the Storytelling System, so maybe some Supernatural Merits dealing specifically with violence and combat could help to bridge that gap and help with some dissonance.
I’m imagining a ‘supernatural fighting style’ merit that produces the effect of those ‘chi master’ martial arts experts you hear about who can supposedly send you flying with a touch or a gesture. You know the ones.
Hello, I have been a player since the new WOD. I love having a good armory. I Would love to see a better explosive and ordinance mods and stats more of the heavy caliber weapons, and special weapons. and more than a APC for vehicles.
I would also love to see more and better equipment bonus and specialty munitions (bullets and things of the like) . thank you.
one of the things I encounter constantly in RPGs that completely rips me out of the narrative is the idea that it’s easy to just “knock someone out.” that you can hit someone on the head to just switch them off without giving them permanent brain damage or a ticket to a coffin, or that you can just slather chloroform all over a rag and not instantly stop the heart of whomever you get to huff it. I’d like to see a thorough debunking of this trope of “easy nonlethal subdual methods.” players use them glibly when they’re effectively superpowers. it’s little different from humans shrugging off bullets. a lot of real-world drama results from -not- being able to just switch someone off without permanently harming them, and it’s absent from most of gaming.
also…no multiple actions, please! please. multiple actions ruin everything. no more Combat Marksmanshippers doing triple damage every round. please. don’t do this to us again. we finally escaped Celerity and then fighting styles supplanted it for nonsense factor.
We need some crime system. What happen when a character kills a NPC? maybe that NPC had family or friends, what do the police thinks about that? How can we know how close are the police to our characters? How affect that murder in the media? Internet, TV and radio.
Bye 😉
I know a lot of people want to see more fighting styles and mechanics, but as someone who’s always preferred story and felt bored with two much of that sort of thing, I’d really like to see violence-based antagonists and something on the role of violence in horror. I’d also definitely like something on the implications of one’s character committing violent acts – obviously there’s already the integrity system, but going more into the horror of that and possible conditions it could cause would be super cool.
More Merits wohl be cool. I would like to See options that makes combat More cineastic and fast.
Different Fighting styles would be cool. You could handle this over merits like Kung Fu gives you a Bo us in this and that.You could add different Martial Arts and or Manuvers in gun fighting, like covering Fire ect.
I would really like to see rules and advice for making wounds feel more visceral. Being shot or stabbed should be a horrifying experience, but when it boils down to “You take 3 boxes of lethal damage” it doesn’t pack much of a punch. I would ideally (though I think rules for this could be quite tricky to produce) like to see bleeding matter/be scary. I want a player who is shot to be thinking “oh god, I’ve got to get to a doctor before I bleed out.” However, at the same time, I don’t want to do a lot of book keeping. I realize I’m asking a lot here, but I’m hoping someone more adept with conditions than I can make something great.
Secondarily, I would be very interested to see advice on stating out NPCs for compelling conflicts. Especially advice on how to handle the difference between five NPCs vs five PCs and one NPC vs five PCs. How do I stat out NPCs to make both of those situations seem interesting and challenging to the players without being overwhelming.
Thirdly, I would be interested to see rules and advice for handling what I’ll call, for lack of a better term, “environmental damage.” Players tend to be very creatively violent, and I would like to see advice for handling things like electrocution, building collapses, falls from great heights, fires, and car “accidents.” I’m less interested in a big list of rules for specific situations and more interested in broad guidelines.
Finally I would add +1 to the following things I’ve read up thread:
-No multiple actions without split dice pools.
-Guidelines for roll your own fighting styles
-Advice on incorporating supernatural abilities into fights. “Fireball” is pretty obvious, I’d be more interested in seeing advice on incorporating enhanced senses, superhuman strength, or invisibility.
I loved armory reloaded. That was a great book. Now I realize this is a different book, it’s own thing but I’m hoping it will make the things of armory reloaded use able in GMC.
so weapons. Machine guns, rocket launchers, grenades, Ordanence. At least enough so I know how how to better convert the big guns of older books. Maybe some guidelines to do that!
Fighting styles. But I’d rather have fewer good ones than a mass of game breakers. The ones in GMC were really good. I’d rather a few new good ones like that.
Some merits on leadership. Tactics for troops, battlefields. Put the social into battlefield confrontations.
Example Stat lines. Not highly detailed npcs that might get used once but more generic examples. Policemen Dave, Dictective inspector Davidson, Swat team, military grunt, SAS/navy seal, drug dealer, pimp, thug, gangbanger, hitman, cultists, enforcer etc.
I’d like to see rules on how to deal with more violent games. Like military, or members of swat teams. Some examples of tactical camber scenes and how to play them out. Like you have hostages, these thugs are here and here and watching this and this. Police are doing x and y to contain it. Then list options for how the players could play it out. It might highlight ways to put thought mental and social skills into violent situations.
Just my thoughts.
Detailed post appearers Eatten.
Most I would like to see more material on how non-combat skills might be used in combat.
GMC heavily hints that a creative player could use nearly every single skill to put Tilts on their opponent. The breath of options that making up tilts gives to players in combat is one of the big arguments for depth of NWoD2 combat, and I would love to see more official support for it. Maybe a short sentence to give some guidelines on each skill’s use in combat and one or two example Tilts.
Like survival for a ‘lured you into dangerous terrain’ tilt, Academics ‘figured out your fighting style’ tilt, Empathy ‘I know how you tick and what you will do next’ tilt, or Politics ‘that bribe got you really interested and unmotivated to continue fighting’ tilt.
Skill’s ability to inflict Tilts has the potential for a player to feel like the they had access to basically ‘mini-arcana’, and if you have just the right idea every single one of them could be used to inflict the right Tilt that changes the combat in your favour.
I actually need more medieval fighting styles for a game I’m running.
I’d love to see advice for storytelling in combat.
I would love to see more fighting style merits, without the multiple actions per round stuff. Also more tilts to be incorporated in maneuvers from merits.
I was responsible for the sharp shift away from multiple actions in WoD2e; I wrote the majority of the new Fighting Styles.
I totally concur. We won’t be doing multiple actions without a compelling argument to the contrary. (Like, there’s one multiple action snuck into GMC, but it’s highly conditional.)
You mean breaking free from a grapple, don’t you?
I house rules multiple actions to work the same as automatic fire from guns. Hit someone three times in one round for example is treated as a three round burst from a machine gun, and equals +3 dice on the attack roll.
Works well for us. Solves a lot of issues with rolling full attacks over and over again and geometric damage. And fits with the current rule set – consistency ftw!
In addition to elaboration on the Beaten Down Condition, I’d like to see a good bit on the use of Breaking Points. This was something I always liked about Kult, that stuff like seeing your friend shot or witnessing a murder had a psychological effect. This is touched upon with the GMC rules, but I’d like to see a more in-depth exploration of this specifically in regards to violence. A normal person coming upon a body that’s been turned inside-out with Life magic or torn to pieces by a werewolf should be affected and it would be nice for this to potentially lead to circumstances beyond just legal ones. Say, a police officer who is so disturbed by a crime scene that she becomes obsessed with trying to find out the significance of the symbol etched into the nearby tree (which is a werewolf territorial marker) or a local journalist who goes on a crusade to uncover the connection between a number of vicious killings on the East Side of the city after witnessing the aftermath of one of the murders.
Game mechanics that help to elaborate the influence of caused and witnessed violence (like in Kult) would be just great. It would help me to show my players also mechanical wise the results of the violence they cause …
The idea that interests me the most is Hard Leverage and violence in Social Maneuvering.
Something that GMC and Blood and Smoke didn’t really cover though was Down & Dirty Combat between groups. What to do if there are multiple groups all fighting at once? That sort of thing.
I think some of what I’d like might see light of day in WoD 2.0 core, but what is of interest to me is this:
An exploration of violence and its repercussions within the World of Darkness.
There are so many threads on “Defense is too high!” – I am not one of the people that believe this.
However, I would like to see an exploration of violence, from intent to the repercussions – something that showcases why (even without down and dirty rules) “getting hit” really hurts, and possibly why you should avoid it – why you do what you can to not get hit, and the pain and aftermath of even getting hit once/twice (for the average person). I’d also like to see design reasons, but that’s just because I like that kind of stuff, but it’ll will probably come up in Open Dev.
Further to this, I think a good exploration of non-fighting style options (as most mortals shouldn’t really have them) for reducing defense – including a good look at tilts, environmental tilts/conditions, how to use your surroundings and your allies, and just what folk should be looking to *do* in a fight (it doesn’t always have to martial).
I’m all for a good list of armaments etc in all their shiny forms, and merits (fighting-styles or not) but I would mostly like to see, with extended examples, what violence *is* within the game, how to handle it appropriately (as ST and Player), and the repercussions thereof.
Dammit. I want to work on this game!
I’d like to see more merits, and I’d especially be down with ones that emphasize “nontraditional” combatants, like someone with dots in medicine using their knowledge of anatomy to strike vitals, or someone with dots in subterfuge or expression aggravating an opponent into making mistakes.
I’d also like to see more of an exploration of what combat means for each supernatural type.
Thrown weapons seem rather neglected in the current GMC rules as well.
Yes, thrown weapons would be great.
Maybe this goes without saying, but I’d like to see guidelines on respectful/appropriate Storytelling in a violence-ridden setting, whether the PCs are combatants or just locals caught in the conflict. Maybe some ideas for supernatural antagonists/dangers you might encounter alongside the human dangers?
>Do you want to see how violence is used in fiction, and thus in the fiction of games?
Sure
>Storytelling advice for how to make violence resonate?
Definite yes
>A variety of organizations and people, and both how and why they use violence?
Not so much but it wouldn’t go amiss.
>Systems to reflect the horror of violent encounters with normal people?
Yyyyes!
>Conditions for permanent effects from injury? Conditions for the trauma caused by both committing and being victim of violence?
You absolutely know it!
I think one of my favourite core WoD books was Antagonists, incidentally, because it showed off just how scary mortals could be to supernaturals, and gave insight into the kinds of tactics they might use. Cults were fun, too. I love cults.
I think an interesting perspective to have is to look at how violence is used the world over to enforce socio-cultural norms, oppress particular groups of people, and sow fear and conformity to political bodies. In the WoD this could involve violent reactions to anyone trying to spread truth about humanity’s true place in the grand scheme, violence from supernaturals trying to control humanity, violence from governments against people who try to fight/learn about the supernatural world as they could potentially subvert the system that the gov’t relies on for its power, etc. The violence of horror can be used to mirror the violence of the real world… what if the domestic disturbance isn’t a bad spouse but a ghost with a violent streak? How does our fear of violence from the supernatural parallel our fear of violence in our real lives? How would a person experiencing supernatural violence for the first time rationalize it? How would they not feel insane and distrustful of the people in their lives?
Great idea for a book, I’d say.
* No multiple actions.
* More Conditions for long-term injury (even past having healed your Health Levels).
* More Tilts.
* More Fighting Style, though I want to stress that these should continue in the spirit of the Styles in GMC, wherein they are not overly specific, but rather general ways people fight (with or without weapons).
* An alternative rule / clarification wherein a single combat roll is not just a single actual motion. I run into this a lot: most people seem to assume that a Strength+Brawl roll is a single punch or a single kick, whereas I assume it’s a series of motions that lead to whatever amount of damage gets dealt.
* A system for hitting more than one target in a single turn (but again, with a single roll, so that if you’re attacking multiple targets, your one roll is worth less to each). Maybe a division of successes (minimum 1 success per target) with the Defense applied being the highest of the opponents, or something to that effect. Could even be a Fighting Style: Outnumbered or whatever.
* Rules for using Down & Dirty Combat vs. multiple opponents (I’ve got my own, which I’ll happily share if you want).
I love the idea. One thing i do really want to se is an option to steamline combat (4 rolls per attack are BAD).
I think you’ve got the wrong edition, NWoD is 1 roll, there aren’t multiple rolls.
I didn’t read everyone’s comments, only the Dev’s responses; so I’m not sure if it’s been discussed.
What I want to see is the Tactics system from H:tV updated and used as a general option for any group of Characters. There is no reason to keep it a strictly Hunter option.
Also, I think this would free up space in the 2nd Edition Hunter book (if it ever gets written)
I’m hoping for condition/tilt cards for everything in the book, regardless of what ends up in there.
Basically any tools past the rules in the book that eases the story telling process.
I’d love some POD card sized equipment, like the conditions and tilts, it would also be amazing for fighting styles and the like.
Buying a few sets of cards and passing them out to people who have those merits etc, is much better than breaking out a book every time combat breaks out.
So I guess I’m more looking for story teller/game running tools rather than any particular new content.
Such a book should have both stuff for the Storyteller and stuff for the player.
For the Player: unusual/improvised weapons(Belt-sander, kukri, kris, that Indian whipsword, those obsidian studded Aztec clubs, etc), less common Martial Arts(pentjak Silat, Kalripayit, pancrateon, etc).
For the Storyteller: How to use violence to move a story and to encourage character develop inside combat, systems for non-combat injuries and torture
The sort of thing I’d look for in a book like this is options. New World of Darkness has always been great for the “toolkit” approach, wherein storytellers and player characters have the option to go by the set standard or do something differently, whatever works best for their chronicles.
I think this would be best achieved by further exploring combat hacks, as in armory, and potentially providing alternative combat scenarios (I saw something similar in either Mirror’s or Mage Chronicler’s Guide). These hacks should give players options beyond just saying that they use their token weapon and allow for creativity, while the alternative combat systems can let the storyteller tweak how combat is narrated and arranged to better fit the story. Cinematic combat and down-and-dirty combat can both be great, but they fit different types of chronicles. Merits, suggestions, and alternate options might help expand the mechanics while also providing options for storytellers with vastly different interests when it comes to violence-based horror.
I want to see mechanics and scenarios showing how violence in reality (and fiction) is not like it is when you think of fights in games. In the general mindset of many of my players about ‘fights’ in the game is that they are ‘fight scenes’ or ‘encounters’ when in reality violence is rarely that simple and white room.
To curb this I try to describe them as ‘Action Scenes’ and I try avoid situations where two or more parties come into a confrontation and it plays out like a D&D fight scene. Rather I see violence as more of a thing that happens, is almost never clean or neat or exactly as planned and where people get hurt sometimes badly. After all, most violence isn’t like a simple bar fight where two drunk people clumsily duke it out and get thrown out to the side walk. Violence is quick, dirty, messy, and full of risks and horror and I’d like to see that really fleshed out so that I can try to describe it better to my players.
So on that note, I would like to see mechanical support for how violence in the World of Darkness develops along non-white room scenarios and in game examples for how that looks and what might be happening on the game table to refer to that. I want to show players that they can make a combat focused character but that that doesn’t make them immune to tragedy.
A lot of this is more up to the ST and I realize that but it would be awesome to see some mechanical support like more conditions and tilts, more mechanics for the goals of the characters (like what if players not only have to state intent but also think of things they do not want out of this confrontation… or something like that to make it more dynamic and emotional). Things like that.
tl;dr I’d like to see mechanic support for non-white room violence (non party-vs-party violence) that highlights the unpredictability, emotionally charged, and realistic essence of violence in the World of darkness.
________
On a secondary note: Ideas on how to portray the Supernatural (doesn’t have to be specific game lines) in regards to violence. Like where do mind powers play into that scheme or dramatic forms and non-human monsters, or how about elemental manipulative powers, et cetera play into the feel of violence and how does that change and in what situations would those be used.
Sorry for the long post but I am very interested in this.
Much as I enjoy crunchy Stuff for players to use (and look forward to seeing them in the book) I do think that, particularly in a horror setting, there should probably be more focus on making fighting something to avoid rather than a default response to seeing something that looks violent. That works fine for lighter or more action focused games but if that’s not the kind of game you’re running then a system for infections and lasting injuries or ST tips on how to enforce that actions have consequences might be good to have around.
I’d like to see a small section on turning the violence in your campaign up AND down. Some campaigns work better if you keep the violence to a minimum, using it just for driving the plot & keeping the tone more PG for younger players, or folks with PTSD that may be unwilling to explore descriptive violent scenes.
On the flip side, it would help having tips on demonstrating the horrors of violence to folks only used to movie-action violence. A bit on how to help convey that violence is something that rips people’s lives apart, not just a “hammer + nail” solution to problems, would be welcome.
I would like to see a Section on shifting the level of violence (escalating from trivial to hostile to deadly, for example), as well as intervention examples for different combat/scenario types.
Wow, a lot of people commenting on this. Haven’t read all of them yet, so apologies if someone already mentioned this.
What I would like to see in this book is help with portraying non-lethal violence, both against and by player characters. There is an old problem I have had in a lot of different game systems that I ran – once you roll initiative, there’s a tendency for combat to last until the opponent is dead. This isn’t particularly realistic even for undying monsters, let alone regular humans. I have managed to avoid lethality sometimes, mostly by talking to players and us coming to some sort of thematic agreement for a given situation, but I am yet to find a natural, intuitive way for combat to be over without someone getting incapacitated.
It’s all too easy for deaths to start piling up. With volume comes decreasing concern about it, which is only natural. And, of course, death by itself has a sense of finality to it. It needs not be revisited. A brutal beating isn’t so final. It can stay with the perpetrator longer. It can cut deeper, in some ways, when they are reminded of what they did by simply meeting the victim again. And even if there is little or no regret, it can also build up some visceral chronicle-long enmities. That’s a great thing to have in your game. And it may be just my failure as an ST that I haven’t been able to pull it off with the greatest of elegance in my chronicles, but help in that regard would be an awesome thing.
Of course, I’m not talking just about STing techniques here, although that aspect is also very welcome. It would also be great if there was some crunch that could help as well. I find that greatest moments in RPing come when thematic and mechanic elements converge to create great drama.
Fights ending without death is built into the new system because of intents, beaten down and surrender.
I just looked that up after writing the post. Unfortunately, still didn’t get around to using God Machine (err… 2nd ed 🙂 ) rules in practice so I keep forgetting some of it.
I wonder if it works in practice as well as it does on paper.
In a book such as this, I feel that a system that provides roleplay would be a fantastic addition much like how Changeling dream combat works with Oneiromachy.
Lots of good suggestions: fighting styles and supernatural combat merits in particular sound good.
Discussing the responses of society and law-enforcement to violence is also good. The default WoD US response should be described, along with how this is different from the real world, and suggestions for how to tune it to suit your own chronicle. I suspect that the response you would get in the real world would make a combat-heavy game completely unplayable, unless the concept for the chronicle were “you are being pursued by the FBI and BATF for crimes you did commit”. I also suspect that the default WoD should be more tolerant of violence, and that this is something it would be nice to have a toolbox for. If the response of mundane society to violence is not supposed to be a theme of the chronicle, it would be helpful to have some prepared explanations for why the characters’ rampages are ignored by law enforcement — explanations that make sense within the WoD, and thus support suspension of disbelief rather than undermining it.
I don’t think you should try to do the whole world, because it would stretch you far too thin. The default WoD setting is the US, and that’s enough to be going on with.
Lots of good ideas in the post and comments, but I’m particularly interested in seeing
* Some advice and/or guidelines for handling creative improv in combat, for when people want to try something clever that isn’t easily folded into existing tilts and maneuvers.
* More options for characters who want to specialize in combat/conflict but not just beating the shit out of people – options for a cop who really does control and de-escalate a situation, for a tactician, for a medic, etc. Also for Sam Fisher, probably.
* Information about the normal combat choices of frequently encountered combatants like first responders, street criminals, wild animals, etc.
*Everything about new ways to measure and tell stories about injury, especially the mental sort.
I don’t want a long list of equipment stats. A general type “Assault Rife” is really all that is needed. Perhaps with simple guidelines for modifications based on general attributes such as “military hardware”, “custom made” or “cobbled together”.
A quick overview of organised groups likely to be involved in violence, could be beneficial. Police, army, gang, neighborhood watch, security detail… And their reactions to supernatural events and\or creatures.
An examination of the social and psychological effects of violence would be appropriate. What is it like to grow in a violent home, a violent neighborhood, during war. What is it like to grow in a family who lost a member to violence. I think these sort of things might help make violent conflict more involved then just “who is left standing”.
Tilts, condition and a more involved recovery (from injury) system, sound good and fitting.
Just make sure violence in the book- is not just about wielding a gun and fighting.
Personally, I would like to understand the narrative point of using violence in roleplaying, as well as understand better what it means for people to go through violent encounters. Anything to use as fuel for stories as well as be a little bit more educated on what the experience might mean (to both players and storytellers).The organizations and why they use violence definetely also sparked thoughts, but for me seems to flow from the first two.
I’d love to see more military material than was in the original Armory book, more than the tank/APC/gunship that was in the last one. Maybe even something touching on more heavy weapons like missiles, torpedoes, and the like for full fledged military games.
I understand too that’s not going to apply to most games. In general, more Fighting Styles, rules for making custom equipment, and perhaps rules for making ones own Fighting Style would be cool.
There are a lot of really good ideas in here. I do not think the weapons and equipment sections are a waste. I do think they were kind of bland, example being saying a Scimitar or Katana is the same as a Machete is a bit far fetched. I couldn’t even figure out how to do Nunchaku.
In any case I would really like to see the power creep kept in check.
More options in combat like tactics, tilts, conditions. Social and mental skills having a place in combat. Style for some of those skills as related to combat. Medicine in and out of combat would be great as this could easily create a lot of drama. Conditions from failing to save a life or seeing too much fucked up shit happen to people?
Bleeding to death from wounds (not aggravated) would be great and is not really talked about. Even though you take lethal if you get shot in certain places you are going to bleed to death without treatment.
Does an aggravated wound continue to compound until treated?
One Thing that would be great is a merit like the “personal weapon” in Slashers. So there is a merit to build ranged / melee weapons that are a bit better or at least with some optional rules. So you can have non-magical special weaponry that is paid by via merit points.
I’d love to see an optional system that would show you how to use the environment as a pool of expendable resources that both all sides in a conflict can draw on or fight over. Or perhaps a way of treating a scene as a character, with its own characteristics that affect combat but can be manipulated by participants.
For example, maybe all scenes have a rating in cover, lighting, mood, some clever term for “restrictive movement space”, etc. A character might be able to make rolls to convert the scenes dots of cover to dots of difficult terrain (he pushes down the bookshelves in a library, giving him less places to hide behind but making it harder for the enemy to engage with him in melee).
Really anything that makes it easier to keep the environmental / engagement range factors trackable and tactically interesting in narrative combat (ie, no minis, no grids).
I also agree with more merits, supernatural combat merits, more tilts, more conditions. Love the idea of an option of dealing with damage through conditions only. I don’t know what I think about the idea of organizations in this book in general, but i think it would be interesting to see a treatment on how different broad types of organizations or social classes use and respond to violence. and coercion. Organized crime, local gangs, the state, the police, the upper class, the lower class, the middle class, etc. How does each react when you come onto their turf, take what they think is theirs, threaten their lives, do harm to others in their presence without it necessarily being targeted at them, etc.
I would also like to see group tactics ala Hunter supported system wide. These are great for giving someone with dots in things like craft, science, or intimidation something to do when they aren’t necessarily combatants.
Finally, i’d love to see unit rules from Dogs of War make a 2e appearance.
Replying to my own comment to expand a bit on the desire to see tactics and unit rules in the Hurt Locker. I feel like these kinds of advanced teamwork systems are often exactly what the game needs to keep combat dangerous without it strictly becoming an escalation game of dots on the sheet. A gang of street thugs with little in the way of resources can still be quite dangerous to even professional combatants if they are organized and work together.
Also a quick addendum: i’d love more rules on how to set traps, especially with a limited amount of available resources and prep time, and what the rules would be for noticing and avoiding traps that have been set.
I would like to see a crafting system which encourages Storytellers to say Yes to player ingenuity. Jury Rigging, Inventions, One-shot items, etc. would be nice. Merits (existing or new) to help create/purchase/hire help to gather/construct/manufacture items for assembly would be neat too. It would be neat if this were to include both carriable items as well as vehicles and large things.
fighting styles
I would definitely like to see a section on consequences the characters can face for engaging in violence. Particularly the response that can be expected from law enforcement based on the level of violence involved.
Expanded equipment and weapon information is always good. In particular, there is nothing in GMC about using bows as weapons, and nothing equivalent to the Archery Fighting Style. This can be a big deal for, say, Changeling characters in the Hedge, where guns may not work and they want a good ranged weapon. Or that one guy who wants to play Hawkeye.
PTSD and other combat related mental illness should defiantly be explored. People severely underestimate the minds venerability to damage by being exposed to a violent situation. Simply seeing someone die, a car accident, mugging etc. are more than enough to sustain mental damage. It is also very scary to see someone finally snap and they usually cause harm to others, themselves, property or all of the above.
I would imagine most supernatural things would cause a mortal PTSD. Simply witnessing and knowing these creatures are real would do it.
Simply put PTSD is a personal horror that is manifested into the world by the person suffering from PTSD.
A large percentage of PTSD cases are thought to be misdiagnosed or even fraudulent.
1. Violence through the ages…how and why it has been used and changed with the advent of technology.
2. Fighting styles are cool
3. Guidelines about how to spice of fight scenes (aka getting rid of white room scenarios)
4. As per armoury section which had weapon laws all over the world. Also police response times to reports of violence
One thing that has been very unclear throughout the books so far (post-WoD v1 aka God Machine Chronicle and newer) is dual wielding weapons. In WoD v1 there are the merits “Fighting Style: Two Weapons” and “Gunslinger”, letting you attack twice in one turn (sacrificing your defense for almost doubling your dice pool). However, because these were ridiculously overpowered they were removed in the God Machine Chronicle and more recent books. With the lack of merits or rules relating to using two weapons, I’d like to have an official ruling. In my group’s games we have been using a house rule. Using an off hand weapon adds the weapon damage modifier to the primary. Also subtract -2 from the roll unless you have the merit “Ambidextrous”. The idea is to have dual wielding be a worthwhile yet pricy investment (3-8 total merit dots) that adds damage to an attack without making the roll gigantic.
I’d also like to see stats for animals that are consistent with the animal forms that various splats can assume. Since dogs in particular are used by police and military units I think it’d be a good idea to include them, as well as other animals that players can encounter over the course of a game. There are enough abilities that let players weaponize animals that it makes sense to me to include them.
I feel a book about the effects of violence is of great need in this (and every) game system, however, I would REALLY like it if said book did not come with new and interesting ways to twink a character even more than GMC already did.
I hope that mortals can defend themselves or others, like vampires and demons can, without risking turning into a mindless monster. A woman defending herself with lethal force against a rapist or a mother violently protecting her child against a vampire is considered little better than a serial killer under the Integrity rules. Any species that suffered the “trauma” that the Integrity rules impose for defending themselves or their offspring would go extinct before evolving intelligence.