The Changing Man

Open Development, Werewolf: The Forsaken

Hey, I’m not putting Paul Weller as this week’s music but I have to get the reference in somewhere. Yeah, Shapeshifting won out, 55 to 10.

Shapeshifting is one of those integral parts of Werewolf and the five forms we use cover the gamut of werewolf legends and cinema. One of the important things to remember about the Uratha’s shapeshifting abilities is that they’re made to service the hunt, not the fight.

Many hunts never end in a fight. If the pack’s performed their role in the Siskur-Dah, the prey just needs a werewolf to put him out of the pack’s misery. That’s possible with some Gifts and maybe a sharp stick. So why do our characters need to change shape? Well, because the above only holds true when the pack’s prey is the equal of them. More often, the Uratha hunt things more powerful than they are. Entire packs of other werewolves, who know the secrets of the Hunt just as well as the pack on the hunt. Spirits who draw power from institutions and places that stretch back hundreds of years. Hosts and Claimed that can tear a werewolf pack apart in a fair fight.

Father Wolf and Mother Luna gave the Uratha the ability to change shape so they could hunt things far greater than an individual werewolf or an individual pack. Now that Father Wolf is dead and his role falls to the Forsaken, they must hunt things more powerful again. That’s how shapeshifting serves the hunt.

Shapeshifting also helps out in fights, of course. It’s not an Uratha’s job to get into a scrap – no goddess-blessed warriors these – but that doesn’t mean that other creatures don’t pick on them. Humans who worry what’s happened to their friends and family who joined the pack. Foolish young vampires who think they can own a pack of their very own, rather than coexisting with another kind of apex predator. Other packs and spirits and prey that want to destroy the werewolves before the pack hunts them down. Minions of the Idigam trying to bring the area under its dominion. When in doubt and when you won’t leave any witnesses, it’s tempting to pop claws and shed blood. To step off that line where you’re holding control and just give in. It’s like an alcoholic with his five-year chip thinking one beer can’t hurt, or the ten-year-quit smoker who picks up a pack after a bad day at work.

Shed blood. Tear flesh. Crack bone. Give in.

Then work out what you’re going to do with the bodies and how you’re going to clean up the mess.

Mechanically, forms have many of the same benefits as they do in the Forsaken core. Most importantly, they keep the same Attribute modifiers. We have made changes elsewhere to demonstrate why each form is as important as it is in the hunt. These are situational modifiers that depend on the form.

I’m interested in hearing specific feedback on the forms here. I know some people will be disappointed that we’re not adding more to the Attribute modifiers, but I want to try to convey the spirit of each form without just adding dots, and I hope that comes across.

The following rules apply to all three intermediary forms (Dalu/Gauru/Urshul)

  • Apply full Defense against firearms attacks.
  • Inflict Lunacy appropriate for the form.
  • Never affected by Beaten Down.
  • Bite & claw attacks count as weapons, and thus deal lethal damage. They also count as supernatural attacks (e.g. dealing lethal damage to vampires).

Each form also has the following abilities, in addition to the form’s Trait modifiers.

  • Hishu
    • Used to walk unseen in the world of humans, even on the hunt.
    • Applies Primal Urge as a penalty to any rolls to pick him out of the crowd.
  • Dalu
    • Used to isolate and chase foes among humans, where Urhan and Urshul would invite too much attention.
    • +2 Perception bonus.
    • Roll Primal Urge vs. prey’s Composuire to force a crowd to part and give up your prey, or to make a single person human back down.
    • Claws deal +0, bites +1 but require a grapple.
  • Gauru
    • Used to kill prey as quickly and efficiently as possible.
    • +3 Perception bonus (normally used to sniff out closest prey).
    • Must attack nearest opponent (either bite/claw or throwing things) or move towards nearest opponent if you can’t attack. Doing otherwise risks Kuruth.
    • Taking Gauru outside of combat always leads to Kuruth.
    • Limited duration of [Stamina + Primal Urge + Auspice Renown] turns.
    • Always use down & dirty combat against lesser foes (most humans, equal rank or weaker spirits, etc.)
    • Opponents who aren’t victims of Down & Dirty Combat cannot spend Willpower to attack the werewolf.
    • Regenerate all bashing and lethal damage each turn.
    • Claws deal +1, bite deals +2 without grappling.
  • Urshul
    • Used to weaken and harry the prey near the end of the hunt.
    • +3 Perception bonus.
    • On a damaging hit, the Defense reduction lasts for the rest of the scene – this doesn’t stack if the same character damages twice, but does from different werewolves.
    • Claws deal +0 and increase Initiative by 1, bite deals +1 without grappling.
  • Urhan
    • Used to chase down prey over long distances, or to harry where Urshul would be noticed.
    • No claws, can bite for +0 damage without grappling. This doesn’t count as a supernatural attack.
    • +4 Perception bonus.
    • Spend 1 Essence to pre-empt another character’s action in combat with your own.
    • In a foot chase, use Speed in place of Strength + Athletics.

While they do plug in to some systems (especially Harmony for shapeshifting and Kuruth), I’d still encourage you to try out these systems in play. They’re not dramatic departures from how the forms work at present, but they help give each form a reason to be.

This week, I want you all to watch the video for Shakira’s She-Wolf. Don’t just listen to the music or the lyrics, look at how she moves. That’s the kind of physical expression that happens every time a werewolf takes a new form.

Finally for this week, would you like Idigam or Kuruth?

  189 comments for “The Changing Man

  1. IanW
    May 2, 2014 at 6:06 pm

    Also He Wolf if you want to risk it.

    • MrParaduo
      May 5, 2014 at 8:39 am

      I always felt that there were too many forms to keep track of, that most people’ll stick to Hishu, then two others. What if players started with knowing only three forms, the others requiring training and practice to fully master? It could make for exciting storytelling, especially if each form reflected something in the Uratha’s personality. Someone who started with Gauru could emphasize strength, bravery, or a need to go all out when tackling their problems, for example.

      Idigam.

  2. Atavist
    May 2, 2014 at 6:07 pm

    I’m sure there’s going to be a lot of complaints, but I uttered more than a few surprised and astonishingly pleased profanities after reading this. Nice to see this stuff. Wow. I’m still wowing. Alright, I have to vote for Idigam, they were something I wanted to see since the beginning of Werewolf the Forsaken, and while Night Horrors was great, it was a long wait.

    Woohoo. I vote for Idigam.

    • Phaolan
      May 3, 2014 at 11:54 am

      Complaints? Sure, but I for one am always willing to watch Shakira move! Oh wait, perhaps that’s not what Atavist meant?

      The notion of a werewolf’s whole reason for being as a hunter is EXACTLY why I dig Werewolf: the Forsaken over Werewolf: the Apocalypse. Glad to see this direction.

  3. Matt
    May 2, 2014 at 6:13 pm

    FIRST!! Woohoo! Kuruth. And question: Ok, so Uratha regenerate ALL lethal and bashing damage per turn in Garou… do they regenerate at all in other forms?

    • Stew
      May 2, 2014 at 6:34 pm

      Yup. The exact rate varies with Primal Urge.

      • Matt
        May 2, 2014 at 6:47 pm

        Ah! So no longer requires an Essence expenditure? Well I’m getting a little off topic from shapeshifting now, I guess, sorry.

        • Stew
          May 2, 2014 at 7:00 pm

          I’ll get into this when we cover Primal Urge, but at high PU you might regenerate say 4 bashing/turn. For 1 Essence, that becomes 4 lethal/turn.

          • Antares
            May 4, 2014 at 10:30 pm

            Omg! Awesome!

          • Amaury
            July 8, 2014 at 6:54 pm

            I was worried when they did GMC and all weapons dealt lethal. It made sense, but I felt werewolves were now regen-impaired, if the only thing they could regen easily was bare fists. Glad to see you’re adressing the issue ! ….You are, right ?

      • Kelly
        May 5, 2014 at 9:21 am

        O_O

        …that is literally all I can think to say on the subject.

  4. Leliel
    May 2, 2014 at 6:15 pm

    So, shapeshifting is a Swiss Army Knife now?

    Awesome.

    I’ll vote for idigam. Again.

  5. Eric_C
    May 2, 2014 at 6:21 pm

    Damn that regeneration is beastly…pun intended. πŸ™‚

    I vote Idigam.

  6. Arcane
    May 2, 2014 at 6:21 pm

    Kuruth.

  7. Dessembrae
    May 2, 2014 at 6:22 pm

    Stew, here are my initial thoughts on the forms since you asked for specific feedback.

    Hishu: No real qualms about the form, yet Uratha are constantly portrayed as having supernatural senses even in their most mundane form, I do think at least a +1 to perception rolls or the ability to track by scent (at a penalty of course) would be a decent course of action. Not too powerful, but maybe enough to turn the tide over a simple mundane

    Dalu: I have no problems with this form as is, especially if the Hishu changes are implemented. Would merely be an enhanced for of Hishu

    Gauru: This form I both love the changes and am disappointed a bit. First of all the heals all bashing and lethal damage per turn definitely makes the form useful especially against hard hitting opponents. What I am sort of disappointed on is the always uses down and dirty combat rules against lesser foes. My reasoning is it is some of those encounters that take you by surprise. A group of low ranking level 1 spirits can actually take down a Gauru werewolf if they use the correct numen. Additionally, humans can band together and even a rampaging Gauru if known is no match for 2 or 3 people with a silver slug each if they get lucky. Lunacy itself should be the equalizer, not a blanket mechanic such as a condition.

    Urshul: I almost think this form is a bit too strong since losing a defense for the rest of the scene is massive. My suggestion is have the damage act more like beats such as arm wrack. If the damage is healed, they gain the defense back. This way, a sufficiently powerful werewolf or vampire can keep going. Even a Gauru werewolf attacked by a few Urshul werewolves would find it odd that his defense does not come back when all of the damage dealt has been healed.

    Urhan: I like the pre-emp action in combat for 1 essence, but I would make it contested if the opponent had an ability such as Celerity, or used Urhan form of their own. Against mundane abilities, makes perfect sense.

    • Stew
      May 2, 2014 at 6:44 pm

      On Gauru, it’s not a Condition or Special Rules Thing that they always use Down & Dirty. It’s a reminder that Down & Dirty exists, and Gauru is exactly the form that even a nebbishy office worker can lay down the smack upon a whole mess of opponents.

      If those opponents pack silver, or have a way of being dangerous more than just “strength in numbers” then they’re likely not lesser. You do bring up a good point, and we will have more guidelines on just that in the Chronicle book itself.

      On Urshul, I originally wanted to use Tilts, but it looks like we won’t be able to fit them in to the book, so we can’t use them β€” the book has to work as a stand-alone product, rather than pointing people to the GMC or wherever. As a result, the tinkering with Defense stands in for inflicting Tilts, though a system for integrating Tilts is going to be one of the first online enhancements.

      With Urhan, we do need to make clear what happens when other people have pre-emptive abilities.

      • Dessembrae
        May 2, 2014 at 7:06 pm

        Thanks for the reply, and I do recognize that the book has to work as a standalone. While I don’t really have a problem with Urshul as written, I still think that if the damage was healed, the penalty would be healed. Anything else would be illogical

      • Rosicrucian
        May 2, 2014 at 10:23 pm

        What I’m really seeing here is that while Gauru is PHENOMENALLY effective at making you into an organic buzzsaw, there are some SERIOUS drawbacks to going loud. That includes, but is certainly not limited to the possibility (which comes up every single time you do it) that you will just go apeshit crazy and your own pack is going to need to restrain you. As well, if you can’t seal the deal within the time limit, things are going to go south for you very quickly. It’s not so much an “I win” button as the nuclear option, and unless you’ve dedicated some of your build points to mitigating its downsides you’re going to have to give some real thought as to whether you want to do this. Your full moons are going to be the best at controlling themselves here, but even they’d probably tell you it’s a helluva drug.

        • Stew
          May 3, 2014 at 5:30 am

          Your pack might not be able to restrain you.

          That’s one of the points of the Kuruth changes (which we will get to, promise). It’s not just “sit on Bob until he calms down”.

    • Ephsy
      May 2, 2014 at 6:49 pm

      Humans? even with Silver Weaponry are probably gonna have to content with Lunacy, so good luck with that.

      • Stew
        May 3, 2014 at 5:31 am

        Some don’t, some decide to fight. Lunacy’s changed some. Should include it in next week’s choice. πŸ™‚

  8. Dessembrae
    May 2, 2014 at 6:28 pm

    I also vote Kuruth

  9. AnaMizuki
    May 2, 2014 at 6:29 pm

    So here’s a question that may sound dickish, but has made me wonder since the Forsaken core, with the loss of the closeness to wild wolves, what purpose does urhan serve? Yes, long distance running, but Urshul could easily take the mantle.

    That, and Urhan as a wolf, if the purpose of the breed is to be a fast runner of foes, wouldn’t it being a more dog-like creature make sense as it is easier to do that in cities and suburbs as well, while a wolf stands out outside the wilds.

    The lupus form in WtA was there to still keep connection to wolves, but as far as I know (and barring that one gift) Uratha don’t have much incentive to do that as most listed packmates are humans or WBs. So urhan doesn’t really stand as the opposite to hishu, either.

    As for voting, Kuruth, people seem to like it.

    • Stew
      May 2, 2014 at 6:46 pm

      Urhan is the form of Father Wolf and the Firstborn, it is the purity of wolf untouched by Luna’s changing energies. That’s why it’s not a dog or another hybrid.

      Mechanically, Urhan provides a range of features that Hishu doesn’t, but is the only other form to not inflict Lunacy.

      • AnaMizuki
        May 2, 2014 at 6:52 pm

        How does its purity affect basic gameplay, though, beyond the lack of Lunacy?

        • Joshua
          May 2, 2014 at 7:44 pm

          Because they’re Werewolves, not weredogs. That is why they don’t turn into dogs. Really. And not all games are going to be heavily city based. It isn’t Vampire. I suspect most werewolf games are based in smaller towns or on the outskirts of cities rather than in the core of them.

  10. Thorbes
    May 2, 2014 at 6:37 pm

    My G+d.

    I like the “one shape for each job” thing, definitely an improvement.

    Gauru is totally OP, not sure if it is a good or a bad thing. The combination of regenerating all Bashing or Lethal damage each turn and the mandatory Down and Dirty rules for combat against “mooks” is, well…. wow.

    After that I had to vote for Kuruth, that’s a piece of this puzzle we need to really understand the whole thing.

    • Stew
      May 2, 2014 at 6:48 pm

      Gauru should be one of those “holy shit!” moments, but without going for huge stat inflation. I want players to have the same kind of feeling as their characters, that they’re pretty much invulnerable and can walk through lesser foes like mist.

      Then a big bad comes along and they realise that Gauru doesn’t make them immortal, just over-confident. πŸ˜‰

      • Sonsaku
        May 2, 2014 at 7:22 pm

        I vote for Idigam.

        As for the forms, i dont understand Hishu

        “Applies Primal Urge as a penalty to any rolls to pick him out of the crowd.”

        Does this means the more primal urge i have, the better im hidding myself in the “sheep”? Doesnt Primal Urge used to be the factor that made life in human socitety for the uratha hell? As human just feel something wrong with the character?

        As for Gauru, why does taking the form outside of combat an instant Kuruth? I mean during combat i can, potentially, make another action but outside of it i cant even try?

        As for regeneration in Gauru, i dont know how that would jive with the other splats (im a crossover kinda person) it would mean a Gauru is gonna a be a “kill it with one shot” kinda monster.

        • darkgloomie
          May 4, 2014 at 2:01 am

          I guess the thing with Hishu and Primal Urge is that people subconsciously avoid looking at you for fear of angering the predator?

        • Antares
          May 5, 2014 at 12:13 am

          I don’t think they are overpower with Gauru, actually it give them some balance. Before Blood and Smoke Uratha were underpower compared with most supernaturals, even with the stats changes in Garou Form a Gangrel with Protean 3 could kill them easily and heal a lot better than the Uratha.

          My troop even had problems dealing with Spirtis Rank 3 and higher because of the healing problem, while the stats of a Spirti with Rank 5 are way to much to handle for a troop of 5 Uratha.

  11. amaterasu
    May 2, 2014 at 6:40 pm

    Vote: Kuruth.

    The Defense reduction being permanent might be a bit too strong, at first read. I always preferred the “long distance jumping” that urshal/urhan forms got in WtA over the WtF bonuses, honestly.

  12. FakeName
    May 2, 2014 at 6:42 pm

    Oh wow, werewolves are scary in Gauru… I’m going to have to rethink my City of Bau Game, or at least the rules for “Gauru form can be held indefinetly” setting hack.

    My vote is for Kuruth.

  13. Ephsy
    May 2, 2014 at 6:53 pm

    Fights between packs of werewolves in Gauru are gonna be decided over who can maintain the form longer, or who can inflict Aggravated. This is why Down and Dirty would work wonders here; have them contest/teamwork it, then narrate it.

  14. Yossarian
    May 2, 2014 at 6:57 pm

    Great post! I don’t have much to say other than I really like it!

    Idigam!

  15. Devil Bunny
    May 2, 2014 at 6:59 pm

    Awesome! This is a much needed buff to shapeshifting. Loving the work Stew! Oh, and I vote Idigam

  16. shkspr1048
    May 2, 2014 at 7:04 pm

    Idigam all the way!

    As an aside, would specific form bonuses apply to the forms of other shapeshifters? Weretigers and so forth?

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:32 am

      We’re not covering the other shapeshifters in War Against the Pure. Other books introducing them are from the blue-book nWoD line and won’t be covered in Werewolf.

      • MagusRogue
        May 3, 2014 at 10:36 am

        You mean the skinchangers book?

      • shkspr1048
        May 4, 2014 at 10:38 am

        Fair enough, but since Werewolf, rightly or wrongly, is the baseline all other changing breeds are measured against, wouldn’t similar rules be employed?

  17. Eric Christian Berg
    May 2, 2014 at 7:06 pm

    My vote is idigam. Time to get a look at the Big Bad.

  18. May 2, 2014 at 7:11 pm

    First, vote is for Idigam.

    Second, I like what I see. Random thoughts:

    * I agree that Hishu might be interesting with a +1 to Perception rolls thing. Even though humans don’t have the same senses, I would think that if anything the kind of “extra angles of view” helps in piecing things apart more. It might not be necessary, but seems fitting for a splat that’s themed on hunting to just always have a bit of an edge on others with that. Not necessary, but would be interesting.

    * Dalu seems fine. I like how it is as-is and it’s a neat combat form.

    * Holy shit Gauru is awesome. THAT is the sort of thing that makes werewolves unholy mosnter terror things. I like it. It is very much something that you gamble on, especially depending on number of things to attack or the nature or risks of kuruth. One discusson elsewhere I have seen is whether it is too hard to kill a werewolf with firearms in this form. That’s a good thing I think. If you aren’t supernatural and didn’t bring silver, you probably get jacked.

    I’m a tad confused on the bullet “Opponents who aren’t victims of Down & Dirty Combat cannot spend Willpower to attack the werewolf.” What’s emant here? Is it Down & Dirty being referred to or Beat Down? I looked at the Down & DIrth rules in B&S and can’t see where anything involving spending Willpower is.

    * Urshul probably needs to have some way for a vicitm to remove the penalty, like what Dessembrae notes. If you heal all the damage, you “sew-up” the physical damage or something. If you can grow your leg back I would think that it would help to make it so you aren’t penalzed the whole time by it.

    * Urhan probably needs a way to contest who goes first if people pre-empt others with that power or beings like vampires with Celerity. I like the turbowolf part though.

    And stuff.

    • Joshua
      May 3, 2014 at 1:22 am

      I don’t think an Innate capability is needed to counter an activated, learned supernatural power. That would be more in line with something that should be a gift, rather than just another addition to Urhan. Celerity and basically all powers of its kind are going to be activated effects, rather than innates, and I don’t think anything should be able to just counter a mage using time or a vampire using celerity with an innate ability.

      • Joshua
        May 3, 2014 at 1:29 am

        I would say the general clash of wills would work best, as it does in Celerity, but an active power should always have the advantage over a passive.

        Primal Urge vs Powerstat+Power rating (Blood potency+Celerity).

        The way I stated initially didn’t really make sense so posted this as a clarification about what I mean about innate vs active.

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:34 am

      Gauru always uses Down & Dirty against things like groups of humans without silver, but use the normal combat system against powerful spirits, other Uratha, and the like.

      When using the normal combat system, people can’t spend Willpower to attack a werewolf in Gauru.

      • Matt
        May 3, 2014 at 6:08 pm

        So this means Hunters can’t risk Willpower either? This takes away pretty much the only thing they have going for them.

  19. wyrdhamster
    May 2, 2014 at 7:14 pm

    I like new rules, only miss one possible fix: Animalistic forms – that is Gauru, Urshul and Urhan – should have Defense calculated from [b]higher[/b] of Wits and Composure. And I agree that even Hishu should get +1 Perception bonus.

    • wyrdhamster
      May 2, 2014 at 7:16 pm

      And I vote Kuruth, of course. πŸ™‚

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:36 am

      That’s a good point. Thanks for bringing it up.

      I don’t know if we’ll go with that as a core feature of the forms, or as a Merit to represent werewolves who spend more time in their animalistic forms, but it is something I’m keeping in mind.

      • wyrdhamster
        May 3, 2014 at 9:24 am

        I’m glad I could help. “Animalistic Initative” was always one of my little things in Forsaken: “Why didn’t use the higher one in animal forms? It’s both logical and cool.” πŸ™‚

        I also agree that even Hishu should get +1 to perception bonus. Majoroty of werewolf media hihglights now that even in human form, werewolfs are great trackers.

  20. Mephi
    May 2, 2014 at 7:15 pm

    I vote for Kuruth! Who cares about stinky Idigam. We want to see the rage in all its savage glory!

  21. patrick.regan@gmail.com
    May 2, 2014 at 7:19 pm

    Funnily enough, a character in my last Werewolf game used this song as both her inspiration and her character’s theme to the point where I had to buy it on iTunes because she kept putting it over soundsystems of buildings she was hunting in to freak people out.

    Let’s see the Idigam.

  22. Scarbringer
    May 2, 2014 at 7:20 pm

    Holyshit.
    I love this, seriously.

    Just a question stew, maybe a little bit ripetitve.. btw..

    So… really… a werewolf regenerate ALL bashing or lethal every turn in gauru…
    Without essence?
    Or I have to spend essence and the health re-gained depends on my primal urge rating ? (every form or only gauru?)

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:36 am

      In Gauru: All bashing and lethal damage. No Essence.

      In other forms: Bashing damage based on Primal Urge. Lethal based on the same number by spending 1 Essence.

      • Scarbringer
        May 3, 2014 at 6:04 am

        This is freaking awesome.

        Kuruth!

  23. wyrdhamster
    May 2, 2014 at 7:21 pm

    And I much more like David’s Guetta She Wolf – it showns need of Urhan, nice shapeshifting and even Gifts on mortal hunters. πŸ™‚ http://youtu.be/PVzljDmoPVs

    • Moloch
      May 4, 2014 at 3:43 am

      Oh the seventeen hell’s YEAH! I saw it on RAGE and went and bought both the ‘track and Video straight away. I then showed it to my ST. He may have had a little moment ;P

  24. PenDragon
    May 2, 2014 at 7:23 pm

    Really the only thing I have a problem with is “Apply full Defense against firearms attacks.” for Dalu, Gauru, and Urshul. It feels a bit overkill, like it’ll make silver completely useless against Gauru form.

    Beyond that everything looks fine. I especially like Gauru healing all lethal, I’d been hoping for something along those lines.

    Also, vote Kuruth.

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:39 am

      One of the problems with not applying Defense against firearms attacks is that it gives gun-wielders too much of an advantage, especially with the Defense changes in GMC. This way, people have to use squad tactics and multiple attacks to bring the werewolf’s Defense down before loosing off a silver bullet.

      • PenDragon
        May 3, 2014 at 4:49 pm

        Would you object to a bit of theory testing in that regard? I don’t generally like white rooms, but this is the sort of thing they actually have some value for.

      • Danny James
        May 4, 2014 at 6:33 am

        I’m a little skeptical about the whole full Defense against firearms too – although I can see the rationale behind not letting folk with a pistol be able to take town a rampaging werewolf in one shot.

        Is it going to be addressed in the fluff? – I can see in my head a fully charging werewolf jumping and dodging out of the way of oncoming fire, and that looks good to my cinematic brain pan. However, I’m also seeing in my head The Wolfman doing a matrix style bullet time dodge and that doesn’t sit too well.

        • Danny James
          May 4, 2014 at 6:35 am

          Oh, and as much as I still want the Idigam, I’ll go for Kuruth as it seems to naturally follow on from shape changing.

  25. Charlaquin
    May 2, 2014 at 7:32 pm

    Let’s get my vote out of the way first: Kuruth

    Now, as for the form bonuses. For the most part, I love them! I do have a couple of constructive criticisms, since you did specifically ask for feedback.

    I don’t care for the intermediate forms granting full defense against firearms. When I think of werewolves, I don’t picture them dodging bullets, I picture them shrugging off bullets. That said, I would really like to see them use the higher of Wits or Dex instead of the lower in all forms, except maybe Hushu and maaaybe Dalu.

    I like the resistance to Beaten Down, but I don’t like completely ignoring it and I don’t like it being restricted to certain forms. I would prefer if they ignored bashing, treated lethal as bashing, and treated aggravated as lethal for the purposes of Beaten Down, and for it to apply in all forms.

    I never liked the limited amount of time in Gauru, and I still don’t.

    I was always partial to 9-again on strength based rolls in Dalu and Urshul and 8-again on them in Gauru. But I can live without that.

    Other than that, total awesomesauce!

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:43 am

      The thing with Beaten Down is, it only applies if you go into a fight without intending to kill someone else. If you’re a werewolf, taking a hybrid form is a sign that you’re always willing and able to murder your opponent to get what you want.

      See comments above about Defense, both against firearms and using higher of Wits and Dexterity.

      • Charlaquin
        May 3, 2014 at 10:13 am

        Ok, that makes sense. My suggestion of treating each damage type like a step lower for Beaten Down was also made under the assumption that regeneration still worked like it did in classic Forsaken. Seeing it scales based on PU, the logic I originally had for that doesn’t apply any more. As for full defense against bullets, I can certainly understand needing a little extra protection against silver bullets. I just don’t think it should come in the form of full defense vs. firearms because I just don’t think it’s thematically appropriate for a genre. I’m trying, but I just can’t imagine a werewolf dodging a bullet.

  26. ChrisF
    May 2, 2014 at 7:51 pm

    I like the way the forms have defined purposes now. And I was quirking a brow at no attribute boosts until I saw that Gauru regenerates ALL bashing/lethal per turn. Any chance of it being considered underpowered went away at that moment.

    Does Urhan no longer gain the penalty for supernatural powers to pick it out as anything other than a wolf, then, now?

    • ChrisF
      May 2, 2014 at 7:53 pm

      Oh, and vote is Idigam

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:52 am

      To quote myself: “Most importantly, they keep the same Attribute modifiers”

      So you’re rocking enhanced Strength as well as those options.

      • Charlaquin
        May 3, 2014 at 10:17 am

        I think a few people took that to mean they have same attribute modifiers as each other, rather than the same attribute modifiers as they did in classic Forsaken .

      • ChrisF
        May 3, 2014 at 7:39 pm

        No, I understood that, I just meant that initially I had thought it’d be little more than the same weak dicepool enhancement they had, but they made up for it with the new abilities instead.

        Was that also your answer to the question about Urhan? That is, they still cause a penalty to recognize them as anything other than a mundane wolf?

  27. The Lone Gunman
    May 2, 2014 at 8:02 pm

    First of, I vote for Idigam! What could be powerful and awesome enough to make these Wolfy murder-machines quake with fear?

    I gotta say, I really like all of these additions…except the Gauru’s Non-Down and Dirty combat bonus of “opponents can’t use WP on attacks”. That took me by surprise, and I confess that I have mixed feelings about it. Is this an example of Lunacy being used offensively somehow? Would this prevent Hunters from risking willpower to boost an attack? Does this perk also effect the Idigam and other “grandiose” opponents?

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:54 am

      By design, yes. You can’t risk Willpower on an attack, and it does affect anything that can spend Willpower on an attack. You can still spend it to boost Defense, or to affect the environment, just not to attack.

      We may tone it down or remove it in the case of certain enemies, but they should be as far above Gauru as Gauru is above normal people.

      • The Lone Gunman
        May 3, 2014 at 10:55 am

        I agree, and I see where you’re going with this perk and rather like the direction. I still have some reservations, but really they’re just little doubts that will probably go away as I get used to the new system and as further things are addressed. I certainly appreciate the response though, thank you for that!

      • Tau neutrino
        May 5, 2014 at 10:38 pm

        Does that apply to any attack, or just physical ones? How about firearms?

  28. Aiden
    May 2, 2014 at 8:02 pm

    Well, um. Man vampires are fucked.

    Voting Kuruth.

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:55 am

      One of the important things to remember in this case is that werewolves and vampires don’t normally go for one another. They’re both predators, just different styles, and their prey and reasons for hunting are divergent enough that it’s rare for them to come to blows.

      • Arcane
        May 3, 2014 at 11:56 am

        Don’t vampires cause/feed spirits same as anyone else?

      • Joshua
        May 9, 2014 at 12:24 pm

        Please don’t dismiss this, many of us love crossover and things like this do come up. I rarely ever play one splat or the other games. While I do think werewolves need most of these changes, I don’t think they should ignore another major gameline’s innate abilities automatically.

  29. JohnD
    May 2, 2014 at 8:19 pm

    Idigam

  30. Xaielao
    May 2, 2014 at 8:24 pm

    Sweet stuff! Agree that statistical bonuses shouldn’t be a huge part of the forms and I’m happy to see that is the direction this is going. I would also like to see Hishu get +1 perception but it’s not an absolute must. However, I do agree above that at least Urhan should get >[Wits or Dexterity] + [Athletics] = [Defense].

    I too will miss 9-again strength rolls with Dalu/Urshal, 8-again Gauru but I can deal. πŸ™‚

  31. Will
    May 2, 2014 at 8:25 pm

    I think that Gauru could do with toning down – to me it screams ‘war machine’ not ‘relentless hunter/go for the throat’. It’s a bit too durable for the role that has been set for it, to bring down the prey when the time is right; the constant regeneration suggests more drawn-out fights, and that feels at odds with the ‘quick and efficient’ dispatching.

  32. Xaielao
    May 2, 2014 at 8:26 pm

    Woops forgot to vote. :/

    Kuruth. It’s one major piece of the puzzle in terms of mechanics we are missing.

  33. Dio
    May 2, 2014 at 8:51 pm

    I think that the defense penality of Urshul can be too OP. I also think that some ajusts to Gauru regeneration would be best, as regenerate all bashing and the normal value of lethal without use of essence. I agree with the sugestions for urhan form use the higher of dex and wits to defense.
    By the way the mechanic for change shape is still the same?

  34. Devil Bunny
    May 2, 2014 at 8:54 pm

    Even if you don’t like it, so far you’re the only that hasn’t really given constructive criticism which is the least you could do if you don’t like the way the game is proceeding. All I see here is ranting at the new direction the game has taken…Oh, I’ll also bet that the sales for this game will be excellent despite what you may think. The Idigam Chronicles has drawn a lot of interest and most people seem quite supportive of it.

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 6:09 am

      You’re not actually replying to anyone here…

      Even then, people are allowed to not like how things are going, even if they word it strongly. I’d rather people didn’t start tearing into one another in the comments, though. Please focus on what you like and what you want to change, not what other people don’t like.

      • Leliel
        May 3, 2014 at 8:39 am

        He actually was, except that post was deleted on the basis of troll.

        Just so you know.

      • Devil Bunny
        May 3, 2014 at 12:25 pm

        Huh, sorry my bad. Thought I was replying to a really long post, but it seems to have been taken down/disappeared. The guy was basically ranting at how he despised the direction Forsaken was going, and was just basically hating on everything IC was doing, saying that a lot of the new material was stolen from other games and that he’d rather play Exalted, Scion, etc. It really got me worked up, but you’re right. I shouldn’t have worded my comments like that.

      • Furry
        May 3, 2014 at 3:52 pm

        1)Common Dalu/Gauru/Urshul characteristic of defense I believe needs a bit of work . I like the idea of alien movement of monster forms that bahaves the same at range and close combat attacks , but should it work that way ? Someone pointed the difficulty of hitting a werewolf with silver bullets because of range defense . on the other side of the coin werewolves are weaker in more natural forms and that boosts the planning design on how to take down a werewolf by ambush , thats totaly a good element on the new range defence rule .

        2)Primal urge as hidding factor amongst humans is a completely new element and quite opposite to the old rules of Primal Urge , which is now a part of Harmony’s role . That makes me curious about what Primal urge will contain πŸ˜€

        3)Dalu has the same claw – bite modifiers as Urshul .Probably this should be attended ? Primal Urge vs composure will be used only for the the example of crowd control , or generally for Primal socials with humans ?

        4)Duration of gauru shouldn’t be something more of a mental state (resolve+ composure+ primal Urge) rather than physical (stamina) ?

        3) I would perefer that Gauru stats should be something more like adding all power ,all finesse and all resistance instead of gaining added stats in physical , this is just an idea I had to make the form different that the rest , just tossing ideas here .

        Also the +1 initiative with claw fits more in gauru rather than urshul .

        4) I think that urshul should gain +1 die on attacks that target specific areas like legs or arms , rather than weaken defense . This sounds more wolfish to me , reducing defense make it look like warrior mor than hunter , I mean this is the fastest form , so it should have something to help it weaken the running prey , not make it weaker in combat .

        5)Urhan has weaker bite that Dalu ? I guess it is because it is a not as much supernatural form as Dalu ?
        The essence expediture in initiative roster I believe should be removed , this sounds more like gift area .

        PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK , and no more Shakira πŸ˜› hehe

        • Ephsy
          May 4, 2014 at 3:08 am

          The thing with Urshul performing that way is because, much like B&S, IC won’t contain a rule section for tilts, and that’s basically replacing them. The book gotta be stand along (I would still use the tilts – and the Urshul benefit, but that’s me). Urshul really feels like it’s meant to cripple a single prey; Gauru looks like the “I wanna survive this encounter” form.

          • Furry
            May 4, 2014 at 3:08 pm

            Yes I agree with you on the urshul stuff , it must be the hunting form and it’s special abilities should be on eliminating escape possibilities of a prey not its fight back ones. When the fight comes the way of solution should problem of the pack or gauru form if pack is absent .

            Yes Gauru has the survive-tank feeling , but also is the slayer form . It is there to kill the enemy on the first sight of weakness , like any wolf will do . The posibility that Gauru uses down & dirty rule on weaker foes , it probably means that will be able to do the same on stronger foes when they turn on the ”weaker condition” . like when they get harried by the pack and got weak enough for gauru to use this weapon .

            The hunting is becomming a puzzle solving strategy situation and I LOVE thies feeling !!!

          • Tau neutrino
            May 6, 2014 at 3:40 am

            Won’t it need to refer to the GMC update, which has the Tilt rules?

          • Furry
            May 6, 2014 at 6:58 am

            Yes it does

          • Stew
            May 13, 2014 at 6:53 am

            We’re now including Tilts in the Idigam Chronicle.

      • Lyrics-of-war
        May 5, 2014 at 11:40 pm

        Pendragon in the shapeshifters thread for werewolf the forsaken forums has some pretty good suggestions on how to adjust the form. I personally love the healing as it is, but he has been play testing the form and feels it could use some refinement in damage dealing.

  35. Devil Bunny
    May 2, 2014 at 8:55 pm

    Besides, just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean others won’t

  36. Not so Awesomesauce
    May 2, 2014 at 8:56 pm

    I like the fact that Urhan can use its speed for chases, but the rest just seems way too overpowered. I have ran games where werewolves were able to regenerate all lethal or bashing at the end of a round, and all it led to was complaints. From both the werewolves and the other players.

    Overall it seems like a way to say he who has the newest book wins!

  37. Nicias
    May 2, 2014 at 9:03 pm

    Kuruth please! Understanding it covers my last concern with Gauru.

    It’s interesting that Urshul gets an init bonus if they use their claws instead of their jaws, but why not extend that kind of trade-off across all wolfish forms? Is there a reason making it available to Gauru and Urhan is problematic?

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:56 am

      That’s a good question. We may need to rebalance the claw/bite traits of all forms; currently Urhan’s bite is worse than a normal wolf’s (by mistake, I assure you!)

  38. Diogo
    May 2, 2014 at 9:23 pm

    I think that the Gauru full regeneration only should work to bashing damage and lethal shoul regenerate at normal pace but without use of essence.
    I also agree that the defense penality of Urshul can too strong and must change.
    Apart that I reallly liked the changes.

    I vote for Kuruth

  39. Satchel
    May 2, 2014 at 9:26 pm

    Voting for Kuruth.

  40. Zooroos
    May 2, 2014 at 10:13 pm

    Kuruth all the way!!!

  41. inkpenavenger
    May 2, 2014 at 10:33 pm

    Kuruth.

    So far, I’m loving all the changes I’ve read. It overall feels like excellent hindsight revisions of the WoD’s various supernaturals. I’m really hoping Ididgam and Fallen World do well so that we can get similar updates to Changeling, Promethean, and Geist (Hunter, too, if they could swing it).

  42. Austin Loomis
    May 2, 2014 at 10:36 pm

    *applauds* Another magnificent example of what a common theme can bring about.

    And I vote for the Idigam.

  43. Jonathan Nicol
    May 2, 2014 at 10:37 pm

    Kuruth

  44. Daydreamer
    May 2, 2014 at 10:50 pm

    Vote Idigam.

  45. Seidmadr
    May 2, 2014 at 10:55 pm

    Ok. This is awesome. Completely awesome.

    The only thing I think is weird is the defence debuff the Urshul gives, scene long is kinda weird. Wouldn’t it be better to say that it kept on as long as the Urshul kept at it?

    Also, I vote for Kuruth, because now we know the good side of the Gauru. Time to look at the drawback.

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:57 am

      Based on comments here, we may have it go away when the victim has a chance to heal.

      • Eric Christian Berg
        May 3, 2014 at 11:18 am

        Honestly, as you pointed out, the most elegant way to deal with it is as a tilt. You don’t have the room to include the full tilt write-up, but certainly you could make how it works match the existing tilts. That would make it nice and consistent.

  46. Uxas
    May 2, 2014 at 11:18 pm

    Love it a lot, but I don’t see the reason for full defense against firearms.

    I also think that in animal forms (including gauru) Defense should be the higher of Dex or Composture + athletics.

  47. May 2, 2014 at 11:44 pm

    Quesiton:

    I’m trying to figure out how timing with Down & Dirty Combat mixed with normal opponents would work. Would such characters act normally, but if the werewolf choses to attack them, would it simply make the Down & DIrty contested roll as its action and deal with the results as necessary?

    And stuff.

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 5:59 am

      I’m not sure I follow the question. Could you give a direct example?

      • May 3, 2014 at 10:40 am

        So say I’m fighting a vampire who himself is fairly potent but might have some mortal thralls around. We enter combat. I enter Gauru. The vampire is possibly competent enough to be a real opponent. Her thralls are not. How is this resolved in combat time? Do the thralls more or less get set aside, do I see if they’re killed immediately, can I take an action a turn to pop one? Do they get normal combat actions still and risk the D&D results if I hit? Or is Down & Dirty only meant for when the werewolf goes against groups purely comprised of fodder?

        I ask because Down & Dirty replaces combat entirely as I gather, but I’m not sure how it operates if you have a group of relevant and irrelevant opponents, such as a vampire with thralls, a mage with human shields, or a spirit with swarms of lesser ones around it.

        And stuff.

  48. Peter
    May 2, 2014 at 11:51 pm

    Idigam

  49. Quatren
    May 2, 2014 at 11:52 pm

    And suddenly it all makes sense why mummies learned how to call meteors down on their foes. They met one of these things!

    I am torn on the “full” defense against firearms part however. Not so much for Garou, but definitely for Urshul and Dalu. Perhaps if this was reduced to half defense against firearms for the near forms, it would feel a bit more balanced.

    And since we have seen much of the heroes of this tale, let’s see their terrible opposites! Bring on the Idigam!

  50. Nick W
    May 3, 2014 at 12:24 am

    Wow, I love the new flavor direction you’ve taken with them. Other posters have echoed the same but I’d be interested in seeing Hishu form gain a +1 or +2 to Perception checks; most the fluff I’ve ever read always makes it seem as if their senses are sharper regardless of form and I think that would accurately portray that. Or perhaps they can ignore X amount of penalties in Hishu form… something like that?

    With Dalu, I like the ability to make people move aside, though just Primal Urge vs. Composure is a pretty small chance of success on an opposed roll unless their ‘aura’ will somehow play a factor as well. Perhaps Primal Urge + Auspice Renown would be e better die pool, compelling them to move by dint of your feral soul and your strength of deeds?

    Other than that, very cool, especially Gauru form. I’m really looking forward to seeing how regeneration will work in full.

    I vote for Idigam please!

    • Stew
      May 3, 2014 at 6:00 am

      Auspice Renown is going to be lower than many characters’ Composure. It’d be an interesting contrast, though. It’s definitely worth looking at.

      • Nick W
        May 4, 2014 at 2:57 am

        Cool, thanks for the reply Stew! I’m really liking the vibe of this game so far.

  51. JDspeeder1
    May 3, 2014 at 12:34 am

    Idigam

    I’d still like a First Tongue Rosetta Stone. ;-P

  52. adam
    May 3, 2014 at 12:56 am

    vote idigam

  53. Ephsy
    May 3, 2014 at 1:07 am

    Thorn here… let’s go with Kuruth, so we have a whole picture of the protagonists. We have tribes, auspices, forms, harmony, pack… just missing Kuruth.

  54. reseru
    May 3, 2014 at 1:24 am

    Finally, it’s time for Idigam!

  55. Ben Linus
    May 3, 2014 at 1:25 am

    Indigan.

  56. Allan
    May 3, 2014 at 1:42 am

    Kuruth.

    And, *damn*, me like! Honestly I found the forms to be the biggest weakness of Forsaken, good to see you’ve addressed that so well

  57. Wyrm Sage
    May 3, 2014 at 2:09 am

    I like it! I would say, in counter to others, that I wouldn’t want Defense to be counted as the higher of Wits or Dex, this would put character who want high dex (or wits) rather than a balance. I do like the use of Defense for firearms, and I can see why.

    Reading between the lines, it seems (to me)that you are more connected to your Primal Urge now. It’s not some powerstat, its how strong your connection to the wild and fierce hunter inside you (that *is* you). I see the use of Defense for firearms as an equivalent to the *higher of wits/dex* in that in those forms you are more in-tune to your wild instincts, noticing all threats to you and reacting to them. (As for Urhan not having it, seems like a balance thing, with the change up of having the speed and interrupt)

    In each form this shows, from Hishu’s “crowd hiding” (you need to get close enough to your Prey without spooking The Herd, so your Wolf tries to hide amongst the sheep), Dalu’s Intimidation (now spooking the herd on purpose), Urshul’s Harrying “tilt” (you are getting them off balance and scared), Urhan’ pure speed, and Gauru’s Willpower Denial (you are bearing them down with your Primal Rage, as it were).

    So I like what I am inferring, though of course I could be wrong.

    As for criticism:

    Hishu: I would like the Hishu to have more sensory input, but that could be added on with Primal Urge (like how Vampires track with Blood Potency).

    Dalu: Maybe add to the Intimidation trick? Another stat (like Intimidation, Presence, or a flat +2) might give it enough oomph to make it usable, since “composure” can become “Resistance” and that can get big for Spirits.

    Guaru: I wasn’t a fan of the Limited turns, but I appreciate the bump with Auspice Renown (I assume it’s no longer tied to your Auspice being out now?), and the other additions (dat healing) make it worthwhile. Though an Uratha in Warform is unstoppable without silver, it seems. Is this turn limit per day, or scene?

    As for the Strength increases for Dalu and Gauru (8/9 agains) they already get some literal Strength and Stamina increases for both forms, and any extra muscle you need, I imagine Strength Gifts will do.

    Lastly, does Gauru (and I think Urshul) still have Armor? I did like that they had a little bit of it.

    As for voting…Kuruth! I want to see that it isn’t so binary, though I am anticipating when you do Primal Urge itself (hoping they have a pool/spending greater than now, or more efficiency with it).

  58. RobW
    May 3, 2014 at 2:10 am

    Idigam please!

  59. Christian a
    May 3, 2014 at 2:35 am

    Kuruth please.

  60. Ryu
    May 3, 2014 at 2:57 am

    Vote for Kuruth.

    The forms sound intriguing (had expected the 8+, 9+ from armory to also come but with the enhanced abilities those are not really necessary any longer to make werewolf better at ripping thinigs apart).

    What I’m wondering is the reasoning why not give the werewolf in the wolflike forms the animal defense (higher of wits, dex) ?

    Regeneration upgrade in gauru form: At long last. In the first game I ran in the old nwod 3 miners managed to almost beat down a rahu in gauru form just by chipping away bits of his time and again (they were reduced to 1-2 dices each). They really needed a boost in regeneration to help out there!

    Wolf form: As others have already noted it would be good to clear it up what happens against celerity,… there.

    Human form: A +1 perception OR the ability to also track per scent is not excplicitely necessary but would be very stylish though

    What confuses me is the “no willpower spendable to attack” dont remember any rule there where you need wp to attack? (also from the wording it sounds like nobody could attack a werewolf)

    • HuckleberryNorwood
      May 5, 2014 at 11:02 am

      Rather than read it as “cannot spend Willpower to attack” read it as “cannot spend Willpower to enhance an attack”. That should clear up the confusion. πŸ™‚

  61. Darkfool
    May 3, 2014 at 3:53 am

    Kuruth please

  62. baboonking
    May 3, 2014 at 4:19 am

    This is all quite cool. I like how each form comes with a concept for how it is to be used in relation to the hunt.

    The one thing I’ve never been a fan of is the way the time limit on Gauru works. It’s not that a time limit exists, mind you. I just think that the fact that you only remain in Gauru for under minute (unless you’re really freaking powerful) and then simply shift back into another form seems rather anticlimactic.

    In games I’ve played we usually house ruled some variation of risking going into Kuruth when the Stamina+Primal Urge turns were up. I think the one we used most often was that we rolled Harmony and if it failed you went into Kuruth, if you succeeded you got another amount of turns equal to your successes before you rolled Harmony again. But every time you rolled Harmony you subtracted one dice so the risk of Kuruth became greater.

    This usually worked well for us. Rather than Gauru just being a tool with a time limit it became a double edged sword. Extremely powerful but risky as the longer you stayed in it, the closer you got into losing control. Each Harmony roll felt like a gamble and while a powerful form it came with the risk of the player/character pushing his luck. It was fun as hell!

    • baboonking
      May 3, 2014 at 4:27 am

      Although, with the boost in abilities given to Gauru here, not having a set time limit might make it too overpowered. Especially with the current emphasis on wolves as hunters rather than warriors.

      That being said, personally I never liked the time limit. It seemed like a bit too clunky way to solve the overpowered nature of Gauru. But I’ll give it a try with these new rules and see how it feel.

      Oh, and I vote for Idigam.

    • wyrdhamster
      May 3, 2014 at 9:47 am

      I’m whole haertly agree with “you can stay outside of Gauru time limit, but you risk Death Rage” – it’s cinematic, it’s cool, and leave players with choice.

      • Charlaquin
        May 3, 2014 at 10:30 am

        +1 to staying in Gauru past the time limit at risk of Kuruth rather than being forced to shift out of it after x turns. Though I would make the roll 1/turn after the time is up. Of course, I reserve final judgment until we see how Kuruth actually works now.

    • Jim Fisher
      May 3, 2014 at 10:34 am

      While that’s not a bad idea (and how I used to do it), I’m not sure it’s a good idea with the new Death Rage rules. πŸ˜‰

      • Charlaquin
        May 3, 2014 at 11:34 am

        I assumed something like that was afoot. Can’t wait to find out more!

      • baboonking
        May 10, 2014 at 10:27 pm

        Well, that sounds interesting! I look forward to hearing about it. πŸ™‚

  63. Furry
    May 3, 2014 at 4:19 am

    I vote Kuruth

    Also ”cannot spend willpower to attack the werewolf ?”
    What does it mean

    • Charlaquin
      May 3, 2014 at 10:32 am

      Can’t spend willpower for the normal +3 dice on an attack roll against a Gauru.

      • Furry
        May 3, 2014 at 12:03 pm

        Thank you so much <3

  64. TheBadWolf
    May 3, 2014 at 4:22 am

    Asking to Steve – May be duration of Gauru would be better as PU+Harmony?

    • Ephsy
      May 4, 2014 at 2:58 am

      Lemme get this straight… The pinnacle of balance being 5 in Harmony (per the new rules, check out the first of these blogs) and it last less than a werewolf with Harmony 10 (Being virtually unable to shapeshift)?

  65. Merkonan
    May 3, 2014 at 4:43 am

    I’m wondering what the rationale is for the intermediate forms dealing lethal to vampires is. My vote’s for Idigam.

  66. Christian A
    May 3, 2014 at 5:50 am

    What does a theoretical fight between two Gauru werewolves look like? They tear each other to pieces and heal all damage they do to each other every turn, until one of them can’t stay in Gauru; at which point the other werewolf dominates the fight?

    • christian a
      May 3, 2014 at 5:52 am

      .. in a hypothetical white room scenario; granted.

      • Stew
        May 3, 2014 at 6:07 am

        It’s a knock-down, drag-out fight like that, yeah. The real trick is to stack on enough damage that you wrap-round from lethal to aggravated, so your opponent can’t regenerate it. Mostly, it comes down to whoever can remain in Gauru longer β€” which is either the more experienced, or the one who falls to Kuruth.

        As with War Agains the Pure, I don’t see many werewolf-on-werewolf fights being straight up to the death, even Forsaken/Pure fights. It’s more about demonstrating dominance and power. I see the Pure using powerful spirits when they want to kill, while the Forsaken tool up with silver.

        • Graywand
          May 4, 2014 at 9:05 pm

          So using silver is no longer a sin against Harmony this time around?

  67. Alessandro V.
    May 3, 2014 at 6:30 am

    i vote for Kuruth

  68. ideganshaman
    May 3, 2014 at 9:55 am

    I also vote Kuruth

  69. Peter
    May 3, 2014 at 10:41 am

    Awesome changes to shapeshifting, makes werewolves really dangerous. Gonna have to vote for Kuruth, this time around. However are we back to Mother Luna and Father Wolf? Weren’t looking at Father Luna and Mother Wolf a few weeks ago?

    • Charlaquin
      May 3, 2014 at 11:37 am

      They’re interchangeable. As spirits they’re not really male or female, so it doesn’t much matter what parental title you use for them.

  70. Matt
    May 3, 2014 at 11:12 am

    Loved the post. I vote for Idigam.

  71. batro
    May 3, 2014 at 11:47 am

    Can you give +1 Perception to Human form ?
    Or a special Perception Merit to all forms ?

    Idigam !

  72. Malphus
    May 3, 2014 at 1:03 pm

    ‘Idigam Cronicle’ will be a standalone book? Just like blood and smoke?

    • Ephsy
      May 4, 2014 at 3:00 am

      Pretty much.

  73. Raymer
    May 3, 2014 at 3:31 pm

    Kuruth, please.

    I’ve been “running” simulations in my head all day while running errands (not the best way to do it but sometimes its all you have) and I think I’ve got my mind around it. I like almost all the changes, the only one I’m really nervous about is the harry effect of Urshul (I’m guessing that that’s the purpose of the defense penalty), but that would require actual play testing and I might get that chance tonight.

  74. Zanity
    May 3, 2014 at 4:23 pm

    Idigam.

  75. Evil Midnight Lurker
    May 3, 2014 at 7:16 pm

    It occurs to me that “chasing prey down *over long distances*” isn’t a wolf thing, but a very human thing, a thing that is in reality almost exclusive to humans. Wolves aren’t endurance hunters, *we* are. You might consider adding something reflective of that to Hishu — they can take the terror human hunters inflict on animals, and do it to *anything*.

  76. Matt
    May 3, 2014 at 7:24 pm

    Been tinkering with some things in my head. Still not a fan of the “regenerate all damage in Garou” and how that looks thematically. Also not a fan of it just being strictly a matter of who can stay in Garou the longest. Came up with this:

    In KURUTH- Heal ALL bashing and lethal damage per turn.

    In Garou- Heal a number of bashing or lethal damage equal to your Stamina + Primal Urge per turn.

    In all other forms- Heal a number of bashing (or lethal w/ an Essence point) wounds equal to the number of successes on a Stamina + Primal Urge roll, per turn.

    • Matt
      May 3, 2014 at 7:28 pm

      Also, when I mention Stamina in the above post, I’m referring to the Stamina of whatever form you happen to be in at the time.

      • Matt
        May 3, 2014 at 7:34 pm

        Also, in all forms but Garou, there is a minimum of one bashing wound healed per turn regardless of what you get on the Stamina + Primal Urge roll.

  77. Dessembrae
    May 3, 2014 at 8:23 pm

    Stew, with the Gauru form, why is it that they must always attack the closest target rather than simply be as of old and must always take an offensive action? The way it is worded now is if an enemy is crippled and helpless, while additional real threats are still there, they must still attack the helpless individual all while the others try and riddle it with bullets?

    Or does attack the closest target mean closest active threat? Either way, I feel this particular section needs to be looked at more carefully.

    • Ephsy
      May 4, 2014 at 3:02 am

      I got the same concern, really.

  78. Cravax
    May 4, 2014 at 12:31 am

    Really like the changes to forms particularly the Gauru form. Another vote for Idigam.

  79. Rack
    May 4, 2014 at 12:47 am

    Really liking the changes. Keep up the good work.
    Although, as a suggestion you should really revise the gift Father Wolf’s Speed and its’ ability to double your speed, now that Urhan gets to roll its Speed instead of athletics.

  80. Xenorath
    May 4, 2014 at 2:21 am

    I want to see Kuruth!

    Don’t get me wrong, I really want to see the idigam, but I feel like we should get the full picture on werewolves before we look at other things.

  81. TheBadWolf
    May 4, 2014 at 8:33 am

    IMHO, the best system to forms was in one wery good houserule.
    Hishu: +2 to any Perception rolls.
    Dalu: core RAW + lethal damage and 9-again to ANY Physical rolls.
    Urshul: core RAW + 9-again to ANY Physical rolls and Defense calculated from higher of Wits and Composure.
    Urhan: core RAW + 9-again to Dexterity roll.
    Gauru: core RAW but: Duration – Harmony + PU, Armor (including silver prof) is hal of PU (up), Defense calculated from higher Atribute, no suffer penalty, 8-again to any Physical rolls.

  82. TheBadWolf
    May 4, 2014 at 8:38 am

    IMHO, the best system to forms was in one wery good houserule.
    Hishu: +2 to any Perception rolls.
    Dalu: core RAW + lethal damage and 9-again to ANY Physical rolls.
    Urshul: core RAW + 9-again to ANY Physical rolls and Defense calculated from higher of Wits and Composure.
    Urhan: core RAW + 9-again to Dexterity roll.
    Gauru: core RAW but: Duration – Harmony + PU, Armor (including silver prof) is hal of PU (up), Defense calculated from higher Atribute, no suffer penalty, 8-again to any Physical rolls.

  83. MisterE
    May 4, 2014 at 11:57 am

    Idigam please.

  84. Hawthorn
    May 4, 2014 at 4:53 pm

    Story is only as good as its villain and all that.

    I vote Idigam

  85. Big Al
    May 4, 2014 at 4:56 pm

    If Werewolves are this scary I want to see want makes them afraid.

    Idigam

  86. Casey
    May 4, 2014 at 6:35 pm

    My vote is for Idigam.

  87. hoodedclaw
    May 4, 2014 at 8:32 pm

    Well – wow. That Garou regeneration is really something else – I love it. In one step it totally shifts the power of garou to phenomenal – and hardens the themes of silver & the unstoppable wolfman so much.

    That said, I have two things I would query.
    a) I don’t get really the vampire damage statement – why it is so important to the werewolf line or why it is needed specifically vs vampires. That said, I could see the role this has as a gift. Alternately, I could see a decent role for “Garou, lord of the hunt, can expend 1 essence each turn to bypass supernatural protection of its prey/the prey of the Siskur-dah” or the like.
    b)I again am not fully sure about the wolf-form’s ability to supercede an attack. Is this basically infinite use celerity for Urhan? I like the idea of the fast wolf, but the ability is really powerful – particularly with infinite uses. Also – why does one of the more mundane forms get an ability that would be much more useful in Urshul/Garou? It used to be that this forms advantages were for the tracking of the hunt – perhaps straight up sense/defense/initiative bonuses would not be as potentially dodgy as an infinite-perfect-dodge?

    How these interact with Kuruth is of course crucial – I can wait to see what you do with it. So my vote: Kuruth.

  88. Belial
    May 5, 2014 at 6:34 am

    Idigam please

  89. Torn
    May 5, 2014 at 11:04 am

    Not sure how I feel about the “special powers” each form has yet, specifically the “part a crowd” power and the “lowering defense permanently” power… I’m also not a fan of the defense vs. firearms. Maybe they should just get innate ballistic armor? On the other hand I really like the new regeneration mechanics, and the focus on having each form have a specific role to define it!

    My vote is for Idigam!

  90. Monghani
    May 5, 2014 at 11:15 am

    I really dig that you went for rewriting the forms to be more about effects rather than dots. Gives them more of a thematic feel and neat bullet points for why and when PCs would take them.

    However, I do think the attribute boosts for them should be redone a bit. To further put them into the thematic arena. Werewolf being the Physical Splat I figure we should keep them with boosting just the physicals rather than going with Power/Finesse/Resistance like another player suggested.

    A simple route would probably be to have +1 to physicals in Dalu Form(with 9-again on Strength rolls), +2 to Physicals in Urshul Forms(with 8-again on Strength Rolls), and +3 to Physicals in Gauru Form(with all Strength rolls becoming Rote Actions). Not too much of a difference, but less of a smattering.

    While people know the 8-again and 9-again rules aren’t as amazing as they sound on paper, they do offer the chance of rolling more die in the long run, and its a neat effect to do so with.

    I tend to go with beefing up Gauru’s soaking abilities while romoving its dodging abilities. I just can’t see it having a defense outside of soaking and healing. Its why when I rewrote the form a few months back I went with giving it the Mask power of reducing the damage for attacks to a single health level. With that plus scaling healing like from Armory Reloaded they were still a beastly tank.

    Still, I like what I see here and can’t wait to see more. If you guys get a playtest package available I have a few friends that would love to run this thing.

    My vote is for Kuruth.

    Also, I’d like to see how Renown and Ranking works in a future blog.

  91. Tadanori Oyama
    May 5, 2014 at 11:58 am

    Idigam please.

  92. HuckleberryNorwood
    May 5, 2014 at 12:02 pm

    Once again, I am extremely pleased by the changes being made to my favorite game line. I love the fact that each form has a purpose and that Gauru is the night invulnerable murder machine until his Rage runs out. I love the crowd affecting presence of the Dalu form, too, and I’m curious to see how Lunacy would play into that specific use of Dalu.

    I know a lot of people aren’t fans of the time limit on Gauru but I’ve always found it quite fitting. Unlike some other versions of lycanthropes, Gauru isn’t just another form that a werewolf has access to, it requires the Uratha to release their will to the Rage that burn inside them. This Rage then burst hot and fast and is quickly exhausted, leaving the Uratha unable to hold that perfect blend of forms together. I’ve always found it dramatically appropriate.

    I’m going to vote for Kuruth. The hints you’ve been dropping about its non-binary nature are tantalizing.

    • HuckleberryNorwood
      May 5, 2014 at 12:21 pm

      *sigh* So, the above should read “…Gauru is the *nigh unstoppable…” and “This Rage then *burns hot and fast…”

      I am my own worst grammar critic.

  93. FrothyHam
    May 5, 2014 at 12:04 pm

    Ooo Ooo…Idigam please.

    As much as I love the Uratha, the overall spirit world and it’s awesome inhabitants are by far my favorite part of nWoD, can’t wait to see what’s done with them.

  94. Danny James
    May 5, 2014 at 2:38 pm

    A few folk have made cases for why doesn’t x form have y

    i. e
    human form gaining +1 perception

    Higher of wits/dex for defence

    8/9 again from Armory

    Now not necessarily these exact examples, but like with B&S and it’s supernatural merits, (such as the one that increases perception) , will there be any specific werewolf merits that might add to the base shape shifting abilities, or would this be more under the purview of Gifts?

    • Ephsy
      May 6, 2014 at 1:06 pm

      That’s David Hill’s section, so I’m not worried in the slightless.

  95. Dataweaver
    May 5, 2014 at 5:17 pm

    “you must use Down and Dirty” is problematic for me β€” not because it isn’t always the best choice, but because it’s taking away choice from the gamers. And because it’s an optional rule that not every group will implement. If the purpose is to point out that Down and Dirty combat resolution exists and would be particularly appropriate when in Garou form, then just _say_ that it exists and would be particularly appropriate here; don’t try to force it on the group.

    Kuruth. And then Lunacy.

  96. vaguelee
    May 5, 2014 at 8:34 pm

    Idigam.

  97. Antares
    May 5, 2014 at 9:19 pm

    I finally finish reading all the comments (I love everyone opinion because it means that my favorite game line is getting the attentions it deservs)

    So after talking with my troop I come up with the following…

    Hishu: I love the + 1 perception but maybe we should give it a +2 or maybe a merit that enhance that roll over time or is connected with Primal Urge. Example: + Primal Urge to all perception rolls

    Dalu: The same perception rolls as above or maybe Merit based rolls.

    Gauru: I find the healling awesome, most of the time the Cahalith in my troop was like a batery charge for damage, she had some nice gifts and rites to heal her pack so changing this make is very exited for her.
    My only question with this changes + 3 Perception roll… which I find a little bit odd. Is perception a reflexive roll? Because if is not… it means that if you are in Gauru form and try to locate your prey it means that you could fall in to Kuruth so… that doesn’t really sound like and advantage.

    Urshul and Urhan: Awesome no comments.

    Vote: Kuruth (since we are missing a little part of what it means to be a Werewolf)

  98. Vree
    May 5, 2014 at 9:30 pm

    Why’d you apply Defense against Firearms? Celerity, sure, but since when could a werewolf get supernaturally fast enough to dodge bullets?

  99. NateD
    May 7, 2014 at 1:45 am

    Kuruth, I choose you!

    It feels like the “missing link” to this teaser.

  100. Rahuman101
    May 8, 2014 at 3:08 pm

    I vote for Kuruth.

  101. Pandalf
    May 20, 2014 at 11:58 pm

    I would like to point out that a more balanced regeneration in th Gauru form would help crossovers as well as not losing the “danger” element.My suggestion is that it heals all bashing and maybe has an increased armor rating as well as increased physical attributes.Maybe ignore durability and armor by Primal Urge or something?Regeneration should be=Stamina+Primal Urge in lethal damage,and you could also give a -1 to all attack rolls against that form in order to emphasize that moment of hesitation(fear) in the enemies’ actions.How about that?

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