Last Clan this week for Lore of the Clans! I won’t post anything over the weekend or on Monday, which should give people time to catch up before the final push.
Today we present the Tzimisce, written by Joshua Doetsch. Josh is a bit under in each section. I have some thoughts on what to include, but I’d like to hear what you have to say. I’ll close comments on this one on Friday, September 12th. I’ll put a big note on the document and this post when I close it so it’s clear.
Before I give you the link, a few things to keep in mind as you read:
Discuss, but be polite: A few people are confusing “expressing concern” with “insulting the people working on this project.” If you are concerned about something, please express those concerns concretely — I do want to hear them. If you veer into insulting the writer or Onyx Path Publishing, I’ll ask you politely to stop (which, so far, is all I’ve needed to do). Anything after that, I’ll shut the conversation down and move on.
Keep calm and carry on: This is a preliminary draft. Things will likely change between this draft and the final book. If you see something weird or that you don’t agree with, don’t freak out. Just comment on the concerning area, and I’ll look into it. That’s exactly what this process is for.
Comments only, please: Everyone (except me) is restricted to comments only and suggestions. Please use comments only, and do not write your opinions into the draft text. Don’t resolve someone else’s comments or mine, either.
Substance over style: I’m focusing purely on the content, not punctuation or grammar. That kind of refinement of the material will happen in a later draft. Don’t worry too much about commenting on those concerns, unless such an error makes the material confusing to understand.
Cards close to my chest: Because I don’t want to bias the discussion, I’m keeping my thoughts on how I want to redline this chapter to myself. I’ll certainly answer questions and help steer conversation away from unproductive avenues, but in general I want to see what you think, not tell you what I think.
And now, here’s the link to the Google Doc:
Edit: Link removed now that open development is closed. Thank you!
Comments
18 responses to “Resemble What You’ve Dreamed: The Tzimisce”
Aww u was looking forward to seeing some of dark ages 20 stuff for the tzimisce brought over. In particular koldunism and less kupala. Instead we got way more kupala and basically saying all ritae is infernal…which I was hoping would be avoided.
I still miss the days were Tzimisce were more about being twisted in mind than in body. The days before the first clanbook.
The description talks a lot about warping the flesh, but don’t transmit so much the alien mindset.
In the same way, I miss Death and Soul Tzimisces. They were more interesting that the Metamorphosists. Now it seem all it’s Metamorphosis.
What really amuses me, is that the Metamorphists are supposed to be only one faction, and a minority at that.
Yet nearly every sourcebook with a Tzimisce in it has the Body Horror Freakshows front and center, right down to their Revised Iconic Character.
In most of my campaigns its gotten to the point where the Sabbat Tzimisce are the horror shows, and the Old Clan Tzimisce are the Camarilla equivalent of the Lasombra Antis. Yes, they’re not exactly on Path of Humanity, but they’re as repulsed by their so-called brethren, even moreso than the rest.
One can be transhumanist and not be something that would make Clive Barker vomit. I prefer the interpretation of the Tzimisce as the Dracula Clan rather than the Necroscope knock-offs.
I agree. On the whole, I enjoyed this writeup, but I would like to see body horror deemphasized a bit (though I think it was deemphasized in this writeup compared to the clanbooks, but the art is what will give us the verdict).
I would also recover some of the old times Tzimisce, and avoid to make them all about Vicissitude.
They used to be one of my favorites, but then the writers started to base everything in the damn discipline (I liked Vicissitude, but before it ate the clan concept).
And I really hate when they stupidly make themselves stupid body alteration that had no use and made them impossible to pass as humans (as voluntarily taking the Nosferatu curse).
As I said in the comments, if I had to add something, I would add a section (or more!) speaking of the Tzimisce in the context of the Sabbat (their usual concept). How do Sabbat and Tzimisce cultures mix, and what they do on the sect. Ah! And speaking of Tzimisce following other Paths of Enlightenment and seeking illumination outside the flesh.
Another thing that would be nice would be a section to explain their natural predisposition to reject the Humanity and seek other alien ways to think.
I loved reading this one! The Tzimisce always had a cool story though so I understand that the writer has a lot more fun stuff to work with than the author for example the Toreador or the Ventrue. But yeah, awesome writing and a really good read!
I understand that there is a limit of text to work with and that’s why many things are left out. If there is any space left to work with though, I wouldn’t mind reading something about the Bogatyr or how the Scandinavian hag Gunnhild introduced many rites to the clan. One thing that also would be awesome to get some more info about is Gorchist and his Regency in the early Sabbat. What was the nights like when the Sabbat had a Tzimisce as Regent and how is it remembered tonight?
Whilst I enjoyed the write up I agree with the other posters here. There is far too much of a focus on Vicissitude. I went through all the powers listed and there is only one that doesn’t involve vicissitude in some way.
I feel that the Tzimisce concern for domain and hospitality is woefully underplayed in this document and where it is mentioned it is implied to be a defining feature of the Old Clan. Granted it’s not such a feature of the clan in the modern nights, but neither is Metamorphosis and that gets a significant chunk of the document’s word count – if anything the tradition of hospitality is more important to the Tzimisce as it was widespread throughout the voivodate whilst Metamorphosis was followed by an isolated few.
Also most Metamorphosists cling to traditions of hospitality and domain as fervently as any other Tzimisce if not more so.
Still I love Metamorphosis and Vicissitude so I have little complains about them being well represented, though I would have liked more emphasis on the mental side of Metamorphosis philosophy, and Vicissitude is still a Clan discipline even to non-Metamorphosist. Vicissitude is an inexorable part of the Clan identity whether it is used for Metamorphosis or for it’s general utility or even being explicitly denied. Even Old Clan underlines the meaning of Vicissitude to the Clan identity as a whole in their grandiose abandonment of it.
I enjoyed reading this immensly. But as many have stated in these comments and in the document itself it really feels as if you guys allow Vicissitude to define the Tzimisce instead of the other way around. I haven’t read much about the Tzimisce pre-revised but i get the feeling that they were more about the beautiful aristocratic monster with an alien mindset rather than the freakshows with kewl flesh-powerz they are today. I see nothing wrong with them using Vicissitude, but i want more of a “Soul-of-the-Sabbat” feel from them.
I enjoyed reading this document, although I would like to have seen more of the other points of views with the factions of the Tzimizce fleshed out further.
I would like to see more of the revenant families that the Tzimizce have in the Modern Nights.
I think the revenants will get a good enough “fleshing-out” (see what i did there? :P) in V20 Ghouls. No need to use up words on them here.
I love this clan (they’re my Favorite) but I think the fleshcrafters have gotten the lion’s share of the spotlight here. Don’t get me wrong, the ‘public face’ (and the stereotype) of the clan is certainly the metamorphosists, but leaving out the scholars is doing a huge disservice. The kolduns should definitely get more representation, as well as the other more intellectual types of the clan. The Tzimisce are cold and alien to be sure, but they are also highly intelligent, and follow a strict code of honor and hospitality. To judge them by human standards is useless, but to simply mark them all off as freaks and monsters is simply wrong.
Metamorphosis being the face of the Clan or it’s stereotype is a bit false as they are the clear minority in the Clan. They are stereotype amongst players as there has been a good amount of material spent defining them but in the actual game world they are the rarest Path walked amongst the Tzimisce and perhaps the hardest one to walk on.
I agree. “Bram Stoker’s Dracula” was one of my favorite Dracula films, and would love to see more of the Old Clan, which I’ve always considered Dracula to be.
Old Clan denies Vicissitude whole-cloth where as Dracula in the film you mentioned uses Chiroptean Marauder, Vicissitude 6, and some minor modifications to alter between his older paler look and his young self, Vicissitude 1. He is clearly not a Metamorphosist but neither is he Old Clan in my opinion.
He also goes into some sort of Werewolf look alike form which could either be Protean, which he obviously knows as well shoving off with the mist form (Prot 5) and the ability to turn into a pack of rats (Prot 6 I think, or 7 perhaps), or just his personal look for the Zulo shape, Vicissitude 4.
I wonder how “Dracula Untold” will shape up for Tzimizce and/or VtM in general…
Hello, everyone! Thank you for the delicious feedback. Going through all of it now. A few notes (some repeats from my note on the Setites) on my process:
This is very much a first draft. The challenge here was taking material from two previous clanbooks (and other sources) and adding something new, all in a relatively small word count. So the first draft, for me, was erring on the side of old material, clipping all the previous bits that I might have use for, and spilling them here — while finding my own feel for the clan.
In the chaos, things aren’t balanced as much as the gooey bits harvested and smeared on the page (in this case top-heavy with body horror, as has been noted).
The revised draft will be a process of trimming that old stuff back, balancing it out with the new, adjusting to make the bits and bobs of various editions jive better, and smoothing over the big messy stitches of the monster I’m assembling on the mad-science table. You’ve all added to the mad science. A thousand thank you’s.
I’ll be delving into the more cerebral aspect of the clan (and the feedback Eddy gives me) in the next draft.