So today I had a lunch meeting with Eddy that started with us discovering that the last week’s worth of approvals had been sent, automatically, to his CCP email address. Said address being of the deactivated kind, and thus not working to get the art and books and t-shirt designs into the approval queue, this left us plenty of time to talk about True Detective. Finally. I waited a couple of months for this discussion, so bear with me as I indulge in the sort of media analysis Eddy and I have enjoyed for the last bunch of years.
Now, part of why this is interesting for us is exactly the ways we respectively viewed the show. I watched, eagerly, each week and caught rebroadcasts during the week (sometimes just to watch that gorgeous opening credits sequence), while Eddy has only just been able to binge watch in a couple of sittings. I followed the narrative as discrete chunks of the story in the time-honored weekly episode style, and Eddy effectively watched the entire story episode after episode. And it is absolutely vital to look at this limited series as having taken advantage of being only 8 episodes- the writing is spare and every single scene propels Rust and Marty along the storyline. Also, structurally, the way the “starting past”, the “near past”, and the “interview present” are woven together, and how much time each time period gets per episode, seems very tightly plotted to maintain some mysteries, reveal some, and uncover new ones. Just as one mystery in one time-line approaches getting cliched or too familiar, we’re whisked into another timeline. In fact, the moment that the narrative is no longer about those three time-zones but actually is about the characters’ Now is actually pretty exhilarating as you realize how much of those interwoven pasts you’ve been watching.
But I digress. My point above was actually about the changing way we’re absorbing our entertainment- specifically TV watching in this case- and how creative teams can take advantage of that rather than founder against it. Eddy and I likened it to the difference between picking up a monthly comic book, or the trade collection. That particular shift in purchasing of comics brought on a fair number of changes to the way comics were created and sold. (Which is not the only similarity True Detective has to comics- it also plays around with the dialogue not matching the visual narrative in order to give us a truthier truth than just the straight up word&action could. Alan Moore is one of the great masters of this technique in comics over the years, and in Watchmen in particular.) Recently, we’ve been seeing a lot of experiments in how to incorporate our changing viewing habits into schedules, formats, delivery methods, yet True Detectives is actually very old fashioned storytelling, but structured and in a format that allows it to really shine.
But comics. And television. Surely our conversation didn’t drift into talking about two very differently handled shows both existing in comic-book universes that both took some serious chances in order to deliver those settings to the modern TV audience? Actually, yeah- we totally geeked out on Arrow and Agents of Shield.
While we’re fully aware of the different styles of the shows and the internet meme of DC making great TV and Marvel making great movies, what I was interested in discussing was how each show mutated over the course of their first seasons- and why they took a risk of alienating viewers. SPOILERS AHEAD, TOOT, TOOT!!! Eddy had just finished Arrow S1, so he watched how they took a vigilante killer, essentially, and evolved him until he was ready in S2 to act heroic. Our feeling was that this was seen as a necessary story arc in order to move from the dark Nolan Batman movie setting to something that “makes sense” when combining the comic character with TV. So to that extent, they were concerned mostly with the needs of the main character’s development (and just possibly the appeal of the lighter touch of the CW’s programming). Here the chance they take is that viewers actually tuned in to see Ollie kill with arrows, and that they might stop watching with tamer hero decisions. So far, it seems like having nastier killer type villains show up has helped the transition, as well.
And then there’s Agents of Shield. MORE SPOILERS AHEAD! DING, DING!!! My question to Eddy was: is it worth a huge revelation that changes the nature of the show in a season, if there is an audience response that finds the earlier “non-changed” episodes dull? Is the first year of AoS like a graphic novel, and actually well-suited to how we watch shows now because with that revelation explosion we will re-stream and re-evaluate the show and are more engaged at the end of S1? Or is it poorly serving the creative team to have a less interesting premise at the beginning? To do what they did was pretty ballsy, but does it make a good show? And to flip the question, will Arrow‘s slower episode to episode evolution play well when it’s binge watched?
Which brings us to what we do. Is there a parallel between these changing entertainment habits and the tabletop RPG biz? Are there changes to how we tabletop fans consume our RPG worlds that Onyx Path can apply to better everyone’s experiences? Or are tabletop RPGs not something that can or should evolve? “In my day, I got my RPG fun out of a paper book, and we liked it that way! And by gum, I still do!” But as I’ve talked about previously, we at Onyx Path are actually doing some things to better match up with how folks are enjoying their tabletop RPGs. We have recently created an ePub version of Anarchs Unbound for V20 that is designed to be more what a gamer needs on a hand-held device- the Deluxe Anarchs Unbound Kickstarter backers already got a glimpse of the ePub version, but it’ll soon be available for everyone at DriveThruRPG.
We’ve also looked at more ways to get the word out about what we are doing at Onyx in the ways our community is getting its news. For example, here’s a clip of a KS backer opening his W20 Heavy Metal Edition for the first time from Onyx Path‘s YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZXCLfxN1e0
And since we can pretty clearly see that Kickstarter is one of those new ways people are enjoying our hobby, we’ve got some interesting ideas on how to further have fun with KS. Like, keep an eye out for the Deluxe W20 Book of the Wyrm Kickstarter that’s coming up soon- we’re going to give folks a chance to participate in a Pentex Board Meeting using the KS as a way to allow backers to be nominees and possibly get voted onto the Pentex Board by other backers.
As always, we’d love to hear from you in the blog comments with ideas for what else we can be doing along these lines.
A couple of quick things, and then the Updates. First, I mentioned the W20 Heavy Metal Edition is shipping out- but one of the first finished copies was actually grabbed by our printer and entered into the prestigious Gutenberg Awards for Printing Excellence. (Not named after Steve). They were just so proud of what we’d created with the die-cut metal cover and all. Well, we went and won the award for Best Special Printing Project. This was the first time Onyx Path won this award (although I won several for WW over the years), and we’re thrilled that all the crazy hard work between us and the printer was recognized in their industry.
Finally, just a note for all Gen Con attendees: the Onyx Path panels will all be running on Saturday this year. We’re doing three of them, one each for nWoD, cWoD, and then a group one for Exalted, Scion, Trinity and more. It’s the busiest day, so you might want to sign up for them now that event registration is open. I’ll post more specific info on a separate blog later this week.
And at long last, the flat circle that is the Updates:
– Mummy the Curse – Cursed Necropolis DC- Waiting for PoD proof before making the on-sale PDF and PoD versions live on DTRPG.
– Book of the Deceived (MtC): Redlines.
– Exalted 3rd Edition: From Holden: “Craft Charms are grinding along to completion (complex set!). Antagonist drafts are being combined and collated into their final publication form– currently going over the Exalts section with a fine-toothed comb, and enjoying the mock-up Liminal Charms. We’ve also done a revised word count estimate for Arms of the Chosen this week and are considering writers for various assignments on that book.”
Zub’s EX3 Comic: PoD proof looks good, so we should be able to get versions ready to go up on DTRPG for sale this week. Both EX3 novels are being worked on, and I have a notes to get back on Matt Forbeck’s synopsis. Starting to get one of the EX3 Music Suites to a finished state, the Dragon Blooded theme but our composer got caught in a time crunch with another project which is why we haven’t gotten much done lately.
– V20 Hunters Hunted 2: US and most International missing packages have shipped. In daily communication with the European shipper on shipping and getting confirmation that they have started shipping to Europe.
– V20 Anarchs Unbound : Mirthful Mike is putting the last touches on the final PDF, ePub, PoD and then the Deluxe print files.
– V20 Rites of the Blood: is ready for layout, and layout is almost ready for it, waiting on one artist for finals.
– V20 Dark Ages: Scribes are scribing 2nd Drafts. David Hill has delivered some art notes. For the full page art: I had an idea.
– V20: Ghouls: In redlines. There may be a Dev blog coming for this this week.
– V20 Red List: In final draft stage. There may be a Dev blog coming for this this week.
– The Making of the Art of Children of the Revolution: Out to backers who pledged for it. Creating PoD files to go with PDF for sale on DTRPG.
– V20 Bloody Missive Collections of the Clans: Writing.
– Deluxe Werewolf 20th Anniversary Edition: US and most International missing packages have shipped. In daily communication with the European shipper on shipping and getting confirmation that they have started shipping to Europe. The Heavy Metal Deluxe W20 is done and has started shipping with more expected out this week. See the video link above. Mike Lee promises a whole slew of chapters this week of the W20 “Houses of the Moon” novel for Bill to review. The White Howlers Tribe Book is in dev review. W20 Wyld West is waiting for CCP approval.
– W20 Changing Breeds The Deluxes are being finished at press and we are finalizing shipping files. The Changing Breeds Fiction Anthology is in approval at CCP.
– W20 Book of the Wyrm is in layout. This will be the next Kickstarter project in a week or two if everything times out as expected. We think this book should appeal to W20 and W20 Changing Breeds fans alike. Getting this KS together- check out the note above about some of the things we’ll be doing with it.
– W20: The Umbra: In second drafts.
– Mage the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition- Satyr Phil has the last two chapters and two appendices to finish his dev pass on before handing off to Bill. The Character Pack book and the “How Do You DO That?” book would then be what he gets to next.
– Mage 20 Quickstart: Printed and shipped for Free RPG Day.
– Trinity Continuum: System Doc being assembled by Joe Carriker. The first new piece of art in YEARS has been commissioned.
– Scion: Both Scion and the TC above are now moving into active mode for 2014. Contracts and art notes out for the Scion: Origins cover.
– Demon: The Descent: The Demon: Ready Made Characters PDF and PoD versions are for sale on DTRPG. Demon Seed Collection is in redlines. DtD Seattle is in second drafts. Heirs to Hell is in layout and art is being done. Demon Translation Guide is being written. The Demon Fiction Anthology + Interfaces is in redlines
– DtD Players Guide: Flowers Of Hell: Need a couple more pieces of art to arrive and it is ready for CCP approvals.
– Hunter: Mortal Remains: The PDF version is selling like hotcakes (scary hotcakes) on DTRPG and the PoD version is waiting to be proofed. Thanks for all the helpful feedback, early-PDF adopters!
– nWoD: Dark Eras: Second drafts are almost all in.
– WtF: The Idigam Chronicle: All first drafts are in and in redlines. Stew Wilson is doing a remarkably regular Friday blog that focuses on specific topics for the book- lots of good discussion happening right now: https://theonyxpath.com/category/projects/werewolftheforsaken/
– GtSE: Geist Ready Made Characters: In redlines.
– Also: Mage Tradition symbol shirts are now available.
Reason to Drink: Drinking better allows us to understand just what the hell Rust was going on about. My cocktail napkin is a flat circle.
Congrats on the Gutenberg award! I’m positive it will only be the first of many in OP’s future.
Anxiously awaiting a POD of Mortal Remains and Necropolis D.C. as well as the KS for Book of the Wyrm.
Thanks, and me too! A couple of the PoD proofs are on their way- so soon, if they look OK.
I think AoS definitely suffered from having to be beholden to the movie continuity. It could have reached the point it did much more quickly, but because the show had to wait for the release of CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER, there was a lot of treading water in the first half of the season.
As for Arrow, one of the showrunners hangs out on a comic forum that I frequent, and based on his comments, I think they were very deliberate about trying to hook people in with a “realistic” Nolan-esque universe and then slowly shift toward more the more typical superhero genre conventions. Ultimately, I don’t know if that was necessary, because the more recent Marvel movies have shown that audiences will accept the more “comic booky” trappings. Based on the trailer for The Flash, by the same team that did Arrow, it looks like they are embracing the more fantastic elements of the superhero genre wholeheartedly.
Re: Arrow- well what do you know, we were just guessing as to the motives behind his evolution. And yes, you can see them change their stance on the costume hero feel with Flash. I’ve actually heard a couple of folks say they checked out Arrow because of the Flash trailer.
I’ve really enjoyed having the epub version of Anarchs Unbound. Technically I converted it to mobi for the Kindle but I’ve found myself reading via Kindle a lot more than by book lately and with all the pdfs I’ve been getting I’d kill to have them available away from the computer.
Good to hear. We’re certainly going to keep experimenting with that mode of release.
The good news about the epub/mobi formats is that then you can interface with the big sellers again, specifically: Amazon, Apple and Barnes & Noble. Which would be a boon to get onto quickly, since very few other companies are really embracing the epub format, the in-device stores for these companies are noticeably lacking in RPGs, which sucks because not having to lug around a huge backpack (or two) with books in it is a pretty big reason to go get an e-reader/tablet.
And yes, I realize that they’re all different formats and require different things, and would be LOT more work, but you’d be in chain-stores again. (At least, in Barnes & Noble, where people can buy eBooks from inside their stores.)
I spent a lot of time rethinking about my attitude towards episodic and serial formats after Agents of Shield.
I find the episodic format works best for shows like Leverage and Burn Notice. In Leverage, the self-contained stories allow the characters to showcase their signature skills in different contexts, so the show stays fresh and the characters are always doing something interesting. John Rogers hit the nail on the head when he coined the term “competence porn.”
Burn Notice is a lot like that, especially in the early seasons, but then the overarching plot starts taking over and the episodes dealing with it aren’t that great. They get repetitive after a while, and they don’t give the characters the opportunity to show off their competence. In fact, the overarching plot usually progresses because the characters show a distinct lack of competence. It could have been more interesting, had it been handled differently.
For a series like Agents of Shield, which operates on comic book logic, that doesn’t really work. There are some good bits here and there, particularly with Ward and May, but Fitzsimmons and Skye’s competencies are so deep into science-fiction and fantasy land that it just doesn’t come off as clever or impressive. It’s just magic. It just wasn’t very interesting to see the team deal with the monster of the week.
After Captain America: The Winter Soldier came out, Agents of Shield stopped being about random bad guys and instead focused on how the characters dealt with an ongoing crisis on a personal level. That was a lot easier to connect with as a viewer and you can clearly see how the characters’ feelings changed over time as they came to terms with the situation.
…
What’s this blog about again? RPGs?
Glad to hear Exalted is still moving forward and I’ve got my fingers crossed that Arms of the Chosen will have its word count upped. It looks like the Ex3 comic is going to be the first time I get something from Onyx Path through PoD, so I’m looking forward to that.
Also looking forward to Dark Eras, Demon and Scion.
AoS: Good points and yes, I love “competence porn” as a reason for what holds our interest in those sorts of shows. You should check out “Hustle” from the UK. Great caper show.
The EX3 comic will be on sale today or Weds, I think. Lots of fun coming.
True Detective – great show, but I have a question, about W20, What do you do with Chronicle City, its half year since premiere of W20, and many peoples doesnt have his copies ( me too). Whats your plan about them? They sending us a note ” this week!” and three weeks of silence and nothing. Its confusing. So, please give us, your backers a real answer, not copy of last Monday meetings news. I know that its hard to control company in Europe from USA, but its half year if delaying
They got revved up and then Angus was forced to move- stopping them dead in their tracks until that got sorted out. I have a message in to him today (and by message I mean three to different accounts) to get confirmation that they’ve started again. I regret the original choice of shippers, but my goal is to get you your packages, not react in such a way that screws that up.
Chronicle City have a new excuse every month. At what point are you going to write off the missing books and either issue refunds or send out replacement books yourselves? It’s been nearly six months now and I’m getting really sick of the constant excuses from Chronicle City and being told to wait a bit longer.
Yes, I noticed. And it really, really bothers me. Your rewards exist- they are with CC, and you will get them. These are not some mass produced book with thousands sitting in a warehouse that I could have or can now just have somebody else send. So I continue to barrage CC with messages, and spurts of packages make their way through Europe. Again, I do not like it, and am currently getting shipping quotes from a company that is promising much better service all around for Changing Breeds.
At the rate things are going, Chronicle City could take the rest of the year to send out the missing books. What if some of them have been lost by Chronicle City or get damaged in transit, are there no replacements? It’s really frustrating to have been waiting this long for a book that my friends who backed the project got before Christmas, with no idea when or if it’ll ever turn up.
Please no refund, but instead my books send from the USA . I would second Jen request there.
It’s now really time to see some progress there. It’s ok to safe some money by shipping HH20 and W20 together. However it is not ok that for a lot of us the books have not even arrived after six month after the original delivery date.
What happens when Chronicle City spend the money the got for shippment for other things and therefore cant fullfill their obligations? Is there a plan B ?
I totally both understand and feel a massive frustration with the situation, too. It certainly is not OK for anybody not to have their packages after initial shipping was in December. My intention is to get you your books because those books were created and exist at CC. Lost books, damages, the many potential bad things that could maybe happen in the future- all these would move the problem to a different conversation, indeed.
Yes, congrats on the award, especially since it has been something you’ve wanted to do for over 20 years. Is there a web site for the award that we can show it off through? (Please, no stickers on the books that say “Winner of the prestigious Gutenberg Award. 😉 )
Waiting eagerly for W20 Book of the Wyrm. 🙂 Not sure I really WANT to be on the BoD, but I’m sure there will be plenty of other fun things (I’ll throw my vote in for The Gentleman Gamer…)
Vote Quimby!
Or failing that you can vote me and I’ll send you a six-pack of King Distilleries’ finest brun ale. When you look into the sediment you can swear it’s moving of its own volition – it’s so eager to get out of the bottle and down your throat!
You would be scary on the Board, Matthew, but we do need to talk a bit about how your Pentex interest can be part of this.
For exalted, would it be possible to list what remains to be done?
Like a chapter overview. Which chapters are more or less done in terms of writing and editing (barring revisions and other tweaking) and which requires more work ?
No, because any firm “this is done” on that tends to get changed as revelations happen on a particular Charm set that change already written material. Although its frustrating not hearing about that sort of progress, think about the angst constantly changing the finished list would bring. Charms were the big issue and they are almost done, after that we’ll be in a better place to look at what is yet to finish.
*fidget*
Can’t wait for Rites of the Blood!
There’s still a bit of a wait, though.
Rose mentioned on the Demon forums that Flowers of Hell was sent for approval last week. Is that true? Or is it still waiting on art?
Obviously with the Eddie’s e-mail thing caused a week of approval delays, but I was wondering what the status of this was.
On book of the Deceived, can you expand out the progress of the “Redlines” for the book. Its been 6 months in that one phase and it just seems like that project is not moving forward at all.
If no new stage of progress is reported by the Dev to Rose, then we have only that info to give you. Different Devs have very different working methods- some have very tight first draft rounds, some dive in and work on the second drafts more. Others create incredibly in-depth outlines and then give the writers the freedom to exert their creativity. As the hub of all this, we at Onyx Central Command try and allow every Dev the room to create their approved projects in the way they need to in order to create the highest quality product. Sometimes we get projects that seem to drift along, and we need to adjust, but we always err on the side of the angels and allow creative room first.
Its great that you let Devs have a lot of creative control and all and this allows them to create great books, but you have to admit that contrasting Dev process that result can be frustrating to the fans.
(The Mummy line in the 18 months its been out has released 2 books (general release) and a pdf pack. Demons been out 5/6 months and is pretty close to matching Mummy’s book output already. Demons been very past paced in its production, Mummy’s been nothing but delays it seems.)
I appreciate that you give us a Monday update each week. Really I do, I’m a huge fan of the WoD both classic and new and have been for more then 10 years.
As a huge fan I am frustrated that it seems whenever the fanbase raises points about delays and inconsistencies in development that we get mention of the fact you, Rich, are the only full time employee and that “siding with the angels” for the line Devs means allowing them creative space and abolishing even the concept of deadlines its seems.
I understand you want to avoid the deadline/scheduling nightmare that was White Wolf in the old days. Having books come out with incomplete sections, scrapped sections and lacking polish because of scheduling must have sucked for sure. Likewise, I acknowledge that the best (by which I mean most polished) books for WoD (both versions) seem to have come out since Onyx Path started up.
However, do you think that maybe the pendulum has swung a bit far the other way now? Schedules and deadlines can be counterproductive if they are too strenuous or unrealistic. However abolishing them all together for a “get it done in your own time” approach is arguably not much of a business model and can be damaging to the products in other ways.
After all, how many times have you had to sit and read through people’s messages complaining about exactly the sort of stuff I’ve mentioned above? I’ve consistently seen scheduling stuff been an issue for fans on and off since this blog started. How many times have you had to write about it and address it in these very blogs?
If something is coming up that regularly its obviously and issue and something that the fanbase is concerned of and engaged with. I know you guys at Onyx Path pride yourself on your transparency and fan-feedback/integration. So please look at the number of fans seeing various delays to various books and lines (I can spot Exalted and W20 related ones in the blog today) and see if that’s something that can’t be improved upon.
Just to be clear before any other posters bite my head off. This is not a “I want this book now!” post. Its not about me getting a thing I want faster and being annoyed because I don’t have a new shiny thing to read and play with. Its about the basic recurring point of the issue that involves the seeming abolishment of schedules and deadlines from a company that is in a market that engages with that concepts heavily.
When did I bring up being the only employee in this conversation? When did I say that we have abolished schedules and deadlines?
The point is that when the Devs come to me and say “We realize we really can’t write the Charms for EX3 the way we planned because the whole game will not be up to the quality level it should be”- and they convince me of it- I’m going to say that we need to take the time to get it right. We plan on that and continue to have a flexible schedule based on quality decisions not delivery dates. (And the current Deluxe W20 upset is based on a shipping partner not following through on their agreed upon duties as shipper, not because we gave them extra time for quality).
Writers, artists, developers, editors- all of them have deadlines. Some hit them and some need more time and we work that out- just like we did for 20 years with WW. We are constantly adjusting and working with all of our creative teams. The difference is- now you get to see those stops and starts right there in the Updates every week.
If I have to explain this every week to folks, then that’s what I’m going to do. We can not revitalize these game lines by prioritizing speed and shoveling out crap. And that’s not me going “Oh well, I guess we’ll just have to let them take all the time they want. They know best…” That’s me saying that we need to create art here if we want to return these lines to the greatness they deserve. And art takes time. So our policy is to give that time whenever possible.
Note that I said POLICY. It is a business decision. It is the way I desire to run Onyx Path. I could very well be wrong, and even though the books are cool and beautiful and innovative and truly fulfill the promise that was WW’s potential, the fan community gets frustrated and walks away and Onyx closes it’s doors and we’re done.
But we’ll have made some awesome books before we go.
I don’t really have a reply to that, beyond saying you are damn lucky you have a dedicated fanbase. Myself included.
I don’t know many companies that could make the policy model of “this is art and takes time” actually work in a practical business market.
Hope it continues to work for you.
@Hawthorn Fair enough, we can leave it here, then, with this one more thing. Taking a page from the awesome Peter Dinklage, I don’t think we’re lucky. Lucky implies out of the blue good fortune. No, we’ve worked hard, really hard, these past two+ years on the Onyx Path, and for more than two decades with White Wolf before that on building the worlds folk are fans of. We are blessed to have the greatest and most dedicated fans in the world. And that dedication deserves the highest quality projects we can create.
Also, do you mind if I cut and paste our discussion into another blog? I’m sure plenty of other fans would appreciate the conversation. Thanks!
I’m replying here Rich because it won’t let me reply to your last post.
I agree with you that luck might be the wrong word.
I do have more to say on the topic, but I realized it was all basically just my opinion on how things are and how they could be. I realized it was kinda pointless to bring up the points I had in mind. Mainly because:
A) You obviously have infinitely more experience in running an RPG company then I do. So I can only talk theory at best. You can talk practical experience, and experience pretty much always trumps theory.
B) As you said, the business model for Onyx Path is a policy you’ve decided on and embraced. Your faith in that model and continuation of Onyx Path operating on that model are not really things that can be debated. That’s the way the company is. That’s not going to change. All I can do really is play devils advocate and vent frustrations. Which is not really a worthwhile discussion at the end of the day.
I’m happy with you posting our discussion in another blog. I’m a big believer that fans should question and prod the thing they love rather then just unquestioningly following it. So if other people in another blog can get a kick out of that sort of thing. That would be awesome.
Could you link me to the blog in question?
Thanks,
Hawthorn
Speaking of evolving formats in the tabletop community, have you guys seen Storium (storium.com)?
They just finished their kickstarter successfully and I bet any of your game lines would transfer well to their format of collaborative storytelling.
They’re planning on having an “app store” of sorts for various created worlds if you guys wanted to contribute at some point. I think that would be awesome.
I have- I backed it. I have no idea of the license complications of getting involved officially, but I’m looking forward to seeing how Storium evolves.
We have a couple of Exalted games running in it right now, as “side stories” from our main tabletop campaign, just to test, and it’s working wonderfully for us (if only we could convince more of our group to come write with us). 🙂
I hope you guys do get a chance to officially contribute at some point, I’d like to see what you come up with. 🙂
Rich, do you think that Mage The Ascension 20th will be for sale by December this year? Is it possible it might take longer than that?
Well, we “estimated” the PDF would be available at the end of the year, and the finished Deluxe mid next year…so, that’s about as concrete as we’re going to get. But, obviously we want everything out earlier.
Thanks