After last week’s blog, how about we get back to business as usual? And in a lot of our worlds, the above picture by Sam Araya for V20 Lore of the Clans (see below) is business as usual! But no, first I just need to take a minute to touch base on all the great responses I got this whole last week to that blog, and to clarify one thing.
Thanks to each and every one of you who took the time to reach out, either on this blog or through other methods, and let me know how much you appreciate what we have tried to do and are doing with Onyx Path. The good wishes, accolades, and most of all, the understanding, was incredibly heartening and I’ve passed your support on to our gang and our creative teams that are kicking ass on projects around the world. Remember they’re the ones who make all these amazing books possible, and who really need to hear the yays.
The one thing I wanted to clarify came out of some of the responses last week about the Exalted forums and really the Exalted fans. There’s a meme around that describes the Exalted fanbase as “toxic”. If only based on the messages I received last week, I can tell you that that is simply not the case. But I do think some members of that fanbase are toxic, just like any large group of devoted enthusiasts. This is a large part as to why we have the new policy on the EX forum I talked about last week.
Part of this, maybe most of why the forums got the way they did, was my hesitation to cut off anyone in our community who might have had a bad week but is basically a supporter of what we are doing here. And for some folks, that bad week can stretch to years, so I always try to talk first, ban second. That may have led some very small minority of our posters to think that the accepted standards of that community were about being nasty.
Well, no. It is our intention that anyone in our Exalted community can post on our forums without fear of flames and other nastiness from here on in. Or at least, there will be repercussions to not respecting your fellow posters, our creative teams, and Onyx Path as a whole.
And now, because the furthest thing I can think of to all that is a puppy, here’s one of the Pugmire character design sheets I’ve been working on these last couple of weeks:
The notes are where we are now with the character – things can change. But this sheet is already out to an artist for reference for a color piece you should be seeing in the weeks to come.
Our Onyx Path gang talked about convention support again, and what else we can do with that, and our current Kickstarter and the couple of interviews and Reddit possibilities we have lined up already. We did note that the new Achievements section of the Kickstarter had been grossly inflated in our imaginations as to how many selfies we should expect. We have lessened those amounts based on how real people are sending them in. Huh, theory meets the real world and the real world smashes theory. I’m just glad we can do these sorts of experiments, and then adjust them. Back in the WW days, that was really hard to do when you tried out something in a printed book.
Finally, I leave you with this bit of jocularity from our meeting from Mirthful Mike: “I don’t do web.” [pause] “Sorry, Eddy.”
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And now, the BLURBS!
We have been reviewing our shipper’s copies and discovered that we have a few, and only a few, extras from a couple of our Kickstarters, so please email lisat.onyxpath@gmail.com and our lovely office manager Lisa will help you. We have Prestige Edition Mummy: the Curse, and the Mummy Screen. Deluxe V20 Children of the Revolution, and the Deluxe Hunters Hunted 2, and the V20 Screen. We’ll have to do this on a first come, first serve basis, so let us know asap.
Sothis Ascends, the final book of Mummy: the Curse’s originally planned supplements is on sale as an Advance PDF and we are assembling errata for final PDF and PoD physical book copies are available: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/146995/Sothis-Ascends
It includes:
• Comprehensive information on the mundane and supernatural world during each of the three prior Sothic Turns, Mummy’s pivotal eras of historical play — the Cannibal Hymn (2371 BCE), the Mighty Despair (910 BCE), and the Return to Dusk (551 CE).
• A wealth of new material for Storytellers, including characteristics of a Sothic chronicle, features of the latest Sothic Turn, a secret society of the Deathless, a new kind of Utterance, and two new types of story framework — the interwoven chronicle and the parallel chronicle.
• “Pearl of Ascent” — a complete Mummy story that Storytellers can run alone or as the climactic final act in a three-part series called The Avarice Chronicle.
The Deluxe V20 Lore of the Clans Kickstarter is headed towards hitting 200% of the funding goal, and has passed goals that will add Appendixes to the book itself and Bloodlines to a separate extra book called, logically enough, Lore of the Bloodlines. But the Stretch Goals are just one part of the fun, as backers have been sending in selfies and liking our Facebook page in order to boost the Achievements counters and get some extra rewards! If you want to see how the V20 Clans and Bloodlines are given more depth and expanded on to the present day, check it out at: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-v20-lore-of-the-clans
Our own Fast Eddy Webb and as many Vampire 20th Anniversary writers as possible are looking at doing a V20 and Lore of the Clans Reddit AskMeAnything Tuesday, April 21st in the WW subreddit. More details next week – watch this space!
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And now, new project status updates!:
DEVELOPMENT STATUS FROM ROLLICKING ROSE (Projects in bold have changed listings)
First Draft (The first phase of a project that is about the work being done by writers, not dev prep)
- W20 Pentex Employee Indoctrination Handbook (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition) (Going for open development soon.)
- M20 Book of Secrets (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Secrets of the Covenants (Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition) – In Open Development
- Exalted 3rd Novel by Matt Forbeck (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- M20 Anthology (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- nWoD Hurt Locker (World of Darkness 2nd Edition)
- Pugmire (Be a Good Dog.)
- CtL anthology (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- WoD nWoD 2e core (World of Darkness 2nd Edition)
- The Realm (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Dragon-Blooded (Exalted 3rd Edition)
- Scarred Lands Player’s Guide: Ghelspad
Redlines
- Mummy Fiction Anthology (Mummy: the Curse)
- Mage: the Awakening 2nd Edition, featuring the Fallen World Chronicle (Mage: the Awakening) – In Open Development
- Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anniversary Edition
- W20 Changing Ways (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Cursed Necropolis: Rio (Mummy: the Curse)
- Demon Storytellers’ Guide (Demon: the Descent)
- Beckett’s Jyhad Diary (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition, featuring the Huntsmen Chronicle (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)
- Demon Translation Guide (Demon: the Fallen and Demon: the Descent)
Second Draft
- V20 Black Hand: Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- W20 Shattered Dreams (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- W20 Novel by Mike Lee (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Arms of the Chosen (Exalted 3rd Edition)
Development
- V20 Ghouls (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
- Promethean: the Created 2nd Edition, featuring the Firestorm Chronicle (Promethean: the Created) Being playtested.
- Beast: the Primordial core book (Beast: The Primordial)
- “Sardonyx” System Rules (Base rules set for Scion and the Trinity Continuum)
Editing
- M20 How do you DO that? (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)
- MtC Dreams of Avarice
- V20 Red List (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)
Development (post-editing)
ART DIRECTION FROM MIRTHFUL MIKE
In Art Direction
- M20 How Do You Do That – Sketches coming in.
- Wraith 20 – Logos continue. I believe he only has one more.
- Dreams of Avarice – Figured out a rough format and page count. Sent off to Colin for specific artnotes for Sam.
- Beast – Roughing in the text to figure out the art buy. Not too much more to go on that and I can start sending out notes. Talking to Mark Kelly about doing the fulls.
- Red List – Also putting that one together. Probably asking KMJ to do the entire book.
In Layout
- V20 Lore of the Clans – Layout of existing text done, now creating the last of the elements for each clan. Should be proofing sometime this week if all goes well.
- M20 Screen – Phil provided list of charts, now on it.
- Art of CB – Depending on how stuff goes, might be in proofing this week. Still have a lot of stuff that has to be done before I can mess with this though.
- Gen Con Stuff – OPP logo fixed up and working on staff shirts and the new banner this week.
In Proofing
- M20 – Second proof with Phil. This will take him some time as he has to deal with the page refs this time out… and there are alot of them.
- VDA 20 Screen – Soon.
- Sothis Ascends – Advance PDF out and errata compiling. Errata cut off this Weds.
- BotW 20 – Awaiting update from printer.
- Ex 3 Anthology – Awaiting updated text file
Special
- Dark Eras – Holding pattern.
- WtF 2 – Index is in. Need to put in PDF, and then creating PoD files.
- VDA20 – Off for indexing.
- Exalted 3rd Edition – RT here: Maria’s doing an in-depth layout pass now that she knows this is the text she has to work with. We talked fonts. It was good.
Other Stuff
- Shirts – Probably have a few for Wednesday.
REASON TO DRINK: Knowing in my head all the things Mirthful Mike isn’t allowed to say.
you mean page references ? by the m20 comment ?
Filling in the PageXXs.
…and there are a lot of them.
Didn’t you guys take care of that way back in Clanbook: Malkavian?
Lady Yosha is adorbs. I can only hope that the heraldry of the rest of the Doghouses are also based on butts!!!
Have to see how these other ones work out, but I doubt we’ll force them to all adapt to that. But, tails are an important form of dog communication, so it makes sense they’d be important in their heraldry.
I’m jus’ sayin’: scratch n’ sniff heraldry.
Think about it.
We have had many discussions about scent and exactly what they might be smelling, marking territory, and other doggie traits. Some just amusing, others pretty serious from a dog-oriented point of view. Not sure we, as humans in the real world, would be able to appreciate via scratch and sniff the subtle, wafting, aromas that would make sense to dogs. Pretty much, we’d smell dog. 🙂
It’s great to see the Scarred Lands Player’s Guide on the list. I’ve been looking forward to more Scarred Lands stuff since it was announce. Yay and Thanks.
My pleasure.
All I can say is: Beast has me excited like I haven’t been for a game line in some time. The spoiler just increased that.
Then it is doing its job, thanks!
Okay, I’m finally feeling antsy about EX3, and while I’m not at all likely to go all bananas over the delays, the timing is odd for me. See, I just NOW finished reading the EX2 book, and the Manual of Exalted Power books for Lunars, Sidereals, and Abyssals (as well as a couple of other books) that I got when the EX3 Kickstarter ended… And now I understand the world enough to feel mad-excited for EX3!
Needless to say, that sketch of Lady Yosha has become my heart. I’m not a ‘dog-person’ but damnit all! I’m excited for Pugmire now, too. I mean that as a good thing, right? 😛
That is very good.
Well, at leas the Page XX are easier to fix today then were before PDF…(I still remember the plague in the old White Wolf core books where you would still find those Page XX references in the edition you got in your hands)
Very true.
Nice to see Dreams, Beast and Red List all coming along.
I have a question in regards to the status of the Exalted Anthology. (Nice to see it back on the list after my question last week :P)
I’m curious does “Awaiting updated text file” mean that Mike does not have said file to check one final time and then presumably upload to DriveThruRPG as a general release copy. Or is it more thee case he’s waiting for an errata’d copy of the original file that will need corrections input before it can go up. Or is it both.
Sorry if this sounds a bit dense, just wondering in general about the book. I’m hungry for another new OP product and out of the ones I’m keeping an eye on it looks like the next one to be out. So it was hoping it was something relatively minor in terms of time consumption. Mainly so that I might get a chance to get my hands on it this week.
Like all of our PDFs, we took in errata from its initial release that needs to be input once it is compiled. So both, I guess.
Out of curiosity, how is the remaining art coming?
Awhile ago, it was stated that there were a few pieces that were going through the rounds again, and that you needed to get a new page border guy at the last minute.
You’ve assured us that the backer pdf would go out regardless of a few missing pieces, but now that some time has passed, as there been any progress on that front?
Only a couple of more pieces that we wanted the artists to spend more time on still to go.
Yay! So the borders are done too?
I count borders as design/layout elements, so not yet.
Good to know! Full-color art is kind of a big deal to me; I notice that it significantly enhances my enjoyment of a RPG book when the art is given the full treatment.
Needless to say, I hope that the full color stretch goal will appear in future Kickstarters. 🙂
Out of curiosity – are we likely to see another Kickstarter before GenCon? I know lots of variables can hit but is there one loosely planned? I don’t think I give you guys enough money is all…
We’re aiming to have Beast’s Prestige Edition Kickstarter before Gen Con- see ya there!
Booyah!!!
My housemate wants to do a version of Legion of Doom / something inspired by the webfic Worm
So with my usual product info request out of the way (we are a nation not of citizens but of consumers…sorry wrong blog) I thought I’d expose everyone here to one of my longwinded essays. Since I missed out on all the interesting discussion points from last week’s blog. Partially I stayed out of that because I’m not an Ex3 backer or follower. Partially because a few years ago now (time flies) me and Rich had a series of extensive blog posts back and forth on the topic that ended up being a “second” Monday Meeting notes and resulted in the “Schedule” page turning into the “Current Projects” page. So I felt I’d said my piece.
Not that that stopped me from ranting here again…
So I want to talk about a point that Rich raised that he called “a bad week”. I have those, we all do. I work in the security industry, some weeks it’s great, the whole teams on the same page, the contractors happy and nothing too bad really happens. Some weeks the 12 hours shifts we all work drag like they are made of uranium and strapped to our backs. Some weeks we deal with people who are ignorant, stupid, petty, angry and frustrating. Sometimes these people need our help while being all those things. So some weeks I’ll look at a Monday Morning blog (either on my lunch break or once I get home) and be very sanguine and cerebral and chill and shrug and say “it’s ready when it’s ready”. Some weeks I look at this update and want to throw my laptop out a window or smash my phone under my shoe. Hell, on the really bad weeks I want to fly across the Atlantic and ramraid the Onyx Path offices for pre-release drafts (I kid, mainly because I could never get that sorta time off work : P)
As I’ve mentioned before. I’m not an Exalted backer and I’ve never played that game. So the stress of the 3rd Edition debacle has not really touched me. For me the big wait at the moment is M20. Once again, the pressure on this issue is not as great as it could be. I’ve never played Ascension and I was not a fan of it back in the day. The KS campaign and the community on the forums sold me on the game (10/10 for the awesome fanbase here selling games to people with positivity. Good fanbase have a cookie.)
I’ve kinda been hoping for the last 4 weeks it could come out to backers that week. Not a realistic expectation I know. Phil only started his Second Draft last week. The naive optimistic part of me was hoping he’d have it done in 1-2 weeks. Which is/was really unlikely to ever happen and once again I think I was/am aware of this on a purely logical cerebral level. However, each of the last four weeks that feeling of want to throw my laptop out the window has been getting worse. Every week I stomp it down and feel silly, but because of the disappointment of my own expectations a little frustrations grows. That’s interesting to me, because I can rationalise all I want on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level it shows I’m invested in these products to the extent that I’m being emotionally irrational on some level. So I can completely understand when that frustration mounts over months and years and get to the point where it gets to be “toxic”.
I’ve been “toxic” before, I’ve called out devs, insulted writers and name called my fellow forum posters. I never even got a warning off the mods for all this, let alone a suspension, which tells you all you need to know about the level of crap that Onyx Path lets its fans get away with on the forums. Looking back on it I’m kinda confused by myself at those times. These are actions that lost me the respect and interaction of several writers, a dev and I feel as altered the way several other forum posters respond to me when I post anything now. I can’t transport myself back to the mindset I had when I posted those things. Yet I know I posted them, I can say that certainly some of the things I said I’m ashamed of. Other stuff I think had a kernel of a valid point, but was drowned out by my own resentment coming through.
So without wallowing in self-analysis any longer let’s move onto more progressive points, ideas and discussion –
One thing I am sure of is that when I (and the other KS backers) do eventually get the preview pdf of M20 it’s going to blow us away. Tricking your brain with the promise of delayed gratification is a good way of dealing with frustration. It’s a good trick and a good method of dealing with these sorta things in general I’d recommend looking up some online articles on the psychology of the human brains need for stimulation and gratification for anyone interested.
In the same line of thought the more immediate want for the same gratification does rather get me thinking about alternatives to the current “waiting line” that I (and other fans) face. Hence the following thought experiment type things (the precision of my language here can be compared to a butter knife..urgh). Now, I’m not suggesting any of what I suggest below should be done. I’m not trying to tell Rich how to run an RPG company, as I have no experience in that. This is more of a devil’s advocate/thought experiment for the idea of possible post first-draft proofs possibly being made available to Kickstarter backers if the devs are up for the idea. Once again, want to reiterate I don’t suggest that this is a *better* or *correct* way of doing things. I’m not even expecting the idea to really even get any traction; it’s just something I wanted to voice because I feel it’s an idea that has some merit. As I feel it might help ease some of the issues around constant fan pestering of the devs about when a product is going to come out or the development of frustration and resent that can build up into “toxicity”.
So from the chatter on the forums and such I think it’s fair to say that backers would be absolutely happy with a copy that still had XX numbers in it. Mainly because at least then they’d have product in hand to chew over and loose themselves in, rather than well…nothing to distract them from the wait (Ok that’s an oversimplification, life is full of distractions). It’s a 700 page book; it’s going to take people a while to read and sent errata in for. That’s time that you have fans singing the praises of the product for start the hype for the final release. All at the same time that a revised/second proof can go through in its own time and the file can be updated with minimum fuss once that’s done.
The other thing I want to talk about in terms of expansion or suggestions is transparency. Onyx Path has been great with its transparency and I think the majority of the fanbase appreciate it. I’m a complete layman about how an RPG book is produced so I take the outline given by Onyx Path has a great template to guide me along the process from an outside point of view. Some of the stages of development are more self explanatory then others e.g. First Written Draft. Others are a bit murkier. I’m trying to think of how many times people asked what exactly the “Redline” process involves last year as I remember it came up a fair few times (having attempted to find all of them I’d say 6 times that I can find).
In a similar vein to Redlining I’d like to talk about the proofing stage that books go through toward the end of their development. I know the basic idea; the dev goes through and looks for spelling mistakes, punctuation errors, outdated rules, text artifacts and typos. I did enough proof reading in Uni to know the basics. The second proof confuses me a little more. In the case of M20 I was not sure if Phil was simply checking the corrections he’d listed after the first proof had been implemented or if he was going to go through the who text again. Likewise, the idea of XX pages never occurred to me. Also I’m not sure if there is a standardised way a dev does a second proof or if each of the line devs does it differently e.g. one just goes over the corrections others go through the whole text.
As such I was wondering if Onyx path could put a little blub on its “Current Projects” page that more clearly defines each stage. They are listed at the top of the page anyway. So I was wondering if each to have a sentence or two after them explaining what the step/stage entails or involves. As a more informed fanbase will (hopefully) be more realistic about the time it takes a dev/person to go through these stages if they know what the stage involves. I feel that a lot of people’s mistakes in predicting when product X will come out (and the resulting frustration) are due to a lack of knowledge to form realistic expectations, rather than outright unrealistic expectations born from whimsy.
Ok so this has gone over 1,700 words now and that seems a little much even more me for a blog reply post. So I’m going to stop now. Rich (and everyone else) thanks for taking the time to read this essay of a reply. I appreciate how much you engage with the fanbase and take our concerns to hard. Likewise, while I’ve been frustrated by it in the past I respect how much you stick to your guns when it comes to the way your run Onyx Path. Finally, I’d like to say I’ always impressed with patience you show towards the fans even those that are frustrated or angry or yes even “toxic”. You have the patience of a Saint.
Honestly if I was in Rich’s position I’d have the Onyx Path super computer tracking down people IP’s and addresses for a “Jay and Silent Bob” style trip of assault with intent. However, thankfully such power is in the hands of those far more responsible then I.
Look forward to replies and thanks to everyone for reading.
Cheers from marry old England,
Hawthorn
“So from the chatter on the forums and such I think it’s fair to say that backers would be absolutely happy with a copy that still had XX numbers in it. Mainly because at least then they’d have product in hand to chew over and loose themselves in, rather than well…nothing to distract them from the wait (Ok that’s an oversimplification, life is full of distractions). It’s a 700 page book; it’s going to take people a while to read and sent errata in for. That’s time that you have fans singing the praises of the product for start the hype for the final release. All at the same time that a revised/second proof can go through in its own time and the file can be updated with minimum fuss once that’s done.”
This,please?
Glad you’re excited for the books, but we still need to release them at the point in their development that we do. Thanks!
Ummm…
Hi Rich, obviously your a busy guy but I was hoping for a more direct reply to the several points I raised. Since it was a long post I understand if you don’t have the time to do a full reply to all the points it raised. We likely don’t want a case of essay vs essay like last time I posted a mega-reply.
Its just that Dwight completely undercut the larger point of the post by focusing on one aspect of it. As the post as a whole was about several points I wanted to here your feedback on really. So while I appreciate that your reply to him is effectively a reply to one of my points (the stage in development that books are released), I was hoping for a little more back and forth.
Its not a huge deal, you reply if you feel like it. Just I feel a little miffed that a more direct reply was thrown off by a post that quoted me added two words and added two words to the end.
Well, to be fair, most of your post really wasn’t something that needed a response, and that poster pulled out one of the points that needed one. As for more “transparency”, I don’t think you are looking at it like we are. It’s not about listing everything we usually do, or expect to do, or might do, during a phase of production. In fact, I’m not sure having that level of granularity is helpful. Look at the uproar when Mirthful Mike said that he was going to wrap up V20 DA before more work on M20. You’d think we were tossing M20 in the trash for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The fact was, during production these kind of decisions get made all the time, but looking in on it from outside, with only one POV, a fair number of folks lost their shit. And of course, felt like they needed to rant about it. Folks, when the Mirthful One says he is juggling projects, you trust him to do right by your particular thing- he has earned that from you.
So listing expected phases in the stages would I think just contribute to that same situation of extreme upset because we didn’t do a step, or decided to reverse course and change a design element and go back up the trail a bit and redo some things. Mike usually puts those things in his notes if he thinks they should be there, so you’ll see it without these expected phases being listed. Which as we know, means to some folks that they are the rules carved in stone.
We good now, man?
Thanks for the reply Rich. As you say, were all good now.
I see your point about more info actually being kinda counter productive in that it can present a false state of affairs just as easily as it might illuminate a misunderstanding. The example you gave from a few weeks ago involving the V20DA vs M20 thing is a good demonstration of that.
As I said, it was just my point of view on the issue given my own reaction to information on a topic. One point of view can’t really account for all the different possible reactions a person might have. So I conceed your point there.
Likewise, I agree with you that the little extra details that Mike makes on his weekly notes does give us an “extra” peak behind the curtain anyway. So its not like were lacking for transparency.
I would like to related the difference those little sort of things and tidbits of info make to me as a follower at least. So later on in the comments I notice theirs a bit of discussion about the M20 content. Phil himself comes in and gives some extra info to try and illustrate a point about the book and the process of making it to both Jason and Vampire Fan. While the info seems to have done little to waylay Vampire Fan’s extremely specific content reaction it did a lot for my own frustrations that I talked about in my last post.
Just the simpel fact that Phil explained exactly what he was looking for, how he was doing it and why it needed to be him alone doing the pass made everything seem or understandable and real. It also made my respect of what Phil has to go through to get us this kick-ass product double.
Likewise, finding out that he was around 250 pages into the process (about one third of the book) after about a week and half made the timeline of progress seem much less “timeless”. It gave me a general idea of the rate of progress and made me feel like the book was weeks away rather then “some time in the future”. This is a general was a uplifting feeling and has gone a great deal to remove the aformentioned frustration on my part.
So, I’d like to thank Rich for the reply he gave and thank Phil for the extra info he was happy to share here with us.
Hawthorn
If Satryos has to input the numbers onto the printed pages then it would take awhile, however about the PDF, im sure there is some sort of option like there is in Office or Open Office or such that lets you number the pages..
It’s not just a matter of Inputting The Page Numbers, but making sure the references are right.
Doing manual layouts is handcraft, and that means the page number for references are not detected automatically.
It’s a painstaking job, yes, but one we must be thankful for.
That’s right.
Thank you for saying that page XX references is a tough job. It is! In addition to finding the pages after the book has been laid out, the links also need to be checked as part of the proofing process before the PDF goes live. The more page XX references there are, the longer this process takes–and this is true regardless of which book it is. In essence, this is manual indexing, because it requires the dev/layout artist to find the precise entry that matches that reference before moving on to the next one.
These Monday Meeting Updates and the schedules on everything are really appreciated. I’ve only recently gotten into cWoD but I’m really looking forward to the KS books to come. Araya’s Lasombra looks great.
There’s a thread in the off-topic forums about you, and how much we fans really appreciate the work you do and keeping our favorite worlds alive. You and Mike Chaney both, sort of behind the scenes and don’t seem to always get the accolades developers and writers do when responding to fans about their work. It can be a hard job but, at the risk of speaking for others, we’re glad it’s you doing it.
That’s a nice illustration, isn’t it? Mirthful Mike is the engine that keeps us going; he’s a design machine. Thanks for the tip, I’ll check out the thread.
I’m Brooklyn Ventrue. Mike is the shiznit. Both you and he are getting beers when we meet.
Keep up the great work, Rich.
1 – Just to say that Beast sounds awesome. I do see some overlap with Vampire, but, I also absolutely loved the little touches of primal power that permeates the fiction we saw. Simple as it may seem, the fact that the room started to manifest water, just, well, just BECAUSE. That’s scary. More than anything else in that scene, it gave me sensation of awe that I’ve no doubt will fill the book. I cannot wait to see the art. And, truly, Onyx Path. That is one setting that feels to me like it NEEDS novels. Just saying.
2 – Speaking of Beast. I was discussing it with my beloved and it struck us both that the concept (with tweaks of course) would really feel QUITE at home in Scion. Playing the Kraken in a Scion game? Oh hell, yeah! We were curious to know if it had been considered. Was there a moment when you had to chose in which game line it would go?
> I do see some overlap with Vampire
And Werewolf. And Changeling. And Prometean.
This is by design: Matt wanted the Begotten to play nice with the rest of their big, BIG extended family.
1- Well, we should at least see an anthology via the Kickstarter.
2- Generally, our focus is on specific pitches for specific lines, but in fact, the discussions that led to Beast did actually lead to a new set of ideas for Scion in a sort of Eureka! moment. But more on that when we get to full-blown Scion talk later this year.
An inspiration’s existence in some form or another in one game line doesn’t necessarily preclude an existence in another. A mythic beast can be just at home in Scion as it might well be in Beast. You might see a doomed seat of kings in one game while the actual Siege Perilous shows up in Scion, for example.
…
New Scion Kickstarter Stretch Goal: For $100k, we’ll stat the Siege Perilous as the fluffiest couch you’ve ever sat on. For $200k, we’ll stat Excalibur as a universal remote.
I’m a Matt Wagner fan, so I prefer my Excalibers looking like a baseball bat. The sentiment is still appreciated!
I know you are probably over this question, especially from me(im the guy thay keeps asking on twitter) but any word/tease/amount of money needed for info on the sardonyx system and subsequent trinity continuum kickstarter, or open dev? On twitter, im that random right winger that keeps tweeting all of you guys. On the forums, ManBearPig, on the continuum google plus fan page, Dave M. Ive been running and playing at least 1 and up to 4 games at once set in that universe for a decade. My group loves it. I love it…hell, I breathe it. Im willing to throw enough money at it to give at least 2 employees at OPP a 3night vacay. Ya gotta give me something. (What if I promise to back whatever the heck pugmire is?…WINK!)
You can give me money, but I doubt Rich will appreciate it.
I have no problem with you accepting bribes Neall, so long as you still proceed according to the plan we have anyway. 🙂
Shit, is that an option?
It seems we should have been told.
What does a pseudo-medieval mage/bard even DO with an iPad? Is it just a holy religious object? :p
A relic from the Age of Man?
Will V20 Black Hand: Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra
or KMW Red List be KS books or regular PDF/PoD books?
Any idea how much longer till we see the Deluxe books of BotWyrm 20th?
The Red List was, IIRC, a funded bonus from a Kickstarter so it probably won’t get a KS of its own.
We don’t intend currently to KS either of them. Like the Update says, we are waiting to get the last cover proofs. We need to approve them, get the final bound edition, approve it, and get everything sent to the shipper and have them do their thing.
Whatever happened to the Scarred Lands (5EDACTED) product you were doing? Last I saw, it was in the product updates around Feb 10th as Cover Finished but I havent seen it since. Was there an announcement or release that I missed?
And now there’s a Scarred Lands book on the progress list, so it might have something to do with that.
Fonts! Fonts! It comes. Lo, it comes!
On a less odd note, I am all kinds of excited to see Pugmire in action.
> Fonts! Fonts! It comes. Lo, it comes!
Always exciting, ain’t it? Fonts. Mmmh. Don’t get me started, just the other day, I spent around 2 hours just looking at fonts, pondering how I’d use all those beauties.
Totally.
Um, especially after the whole toxicity issue, I really don’t want to bug anyone overly, but, how is Mage: the Awakening 2e going? I only ask because the mage dev blog hasn’t had anything new for awhile and it hasn’t moved on the stages for a similar period. Is everything ok? Just busy with other books? Anyone ill? Did a tricky design issue crop up?
We’ve had a fair number of responses from Dapper Dave Brookshaw on the various challenges he has had to overcome working on the project posted in the forums and elsewhere, but suffice it to say that personal issues made progress harder to get accomplished. It seems things are back and rolling along now so you should see some progress in the list very soon.
Not ill – downsized. We kept playtesting and making lights-on updates while I scrambled to combine job-hunting with making sure none of the other games I was writing on were late because of my suddenly changed circumstances.
Very nearly done now. I expect the status of the book to update by next Monday.
UPDATE – just to confirm, in case anyone is still reading, but Mage is now out of redlines.
Hi Rich,
I’m curious about the nWOD Bloodlines: The Chosen book form 2007 where in the introduction chapter there was a section about the contest for choosing the bloodlines that went into the book, then a bit at the end that said “the stuff that didn’t make it in this book will be into a PDF for download from white-wolf.com” Obviously this was right around the CCP purchase and things change. Just something I’ve always wondered about – did the PDF ever see the light of day?
Thanks for asking that again, I missed the last time. Let me ask Rose.
From Rose and Eddy (who remember this one better than I): With the change in the development team, and limited resources, it was decided that the commitment to creating the book as promised was all we had the bandwidth to accomplish. And then the MMO change-up came around and those files were left somewhere with CCP. At this point Onyx Path is looking at new projects for VtR2nd, and not really set up to resurrect old info from before we were created.
Hope that helps!
You know… at the rate you’re going, you might be putting out The Real, Arms of the Chosen, and Dragon-blooded all out at he same time…
Which would actually be pretty cool, if brutally hard on my wallet.
Also looking forward to the Demon translation guide and Storyteller’s guide.
We’re going to try not to land them right on top of each other, and we really can’t move on from EX3 to the next books until we’re sure the design formats are how we’re going to have all the books look.
For those wanting further explanation, satryos has clarified just what he is doing and why it is taking so long, as well we are in awe of the man and the other writers for going through this stuff but here goes.. “Satyros Phil Brucato Thanks, everyone. Jeff – the book has already been copy-edited. These are the layout proofs – at least three runs through the typeset manuscript in order to catch the stuff we missed the first few times around, and to insert those Page XX references now that the layout is finally established.
The trick – the very TIME-CONSUMING trick – at this stage involves poring through almost 700 pages of dense text with one eye looking for mistakes and the other eye looking for references to other pages. When you consider that even the post-cuts version of Mage 20 is around the length of the first three Song of Ice and Fire novels combined, you start to see why this is such a work-intensive process. I’m reading for style AND content AND meaning AND visual clarity AND style-guide consistency (making sure that Oxford commas are used in all places, for example) AND intent AND errors AND other things as well. It’s reading at multiple levels, and it demands intense concentration at all times.
You cannot quick-scan when doing this sort of thing – that’s how you make those mistakes, or miss them entirely, in the first place. Just the other day, I caught a place where “medication” was used but “meditation” was meant. That’s why no one but me can handle this stage – I’m the only one who knows what I meant when I wrote it. Certain elements, too, become obvious only in context with other works; having completed How Do You DO That?, I’m now noticing very minor rule-consistency issues that I had not realized (or that had not even existed) back when I wrote Mage 20 itself. And so, yeah – time-consuming work, from which I need to take periodic breaks or else risk missing (or making) errors.
Right now, I’m about 250 pages into the 668 pages that constitute the non-Index/ sponsor thanks of the book.
Onward!!!!!”
I’m sure there are lots of us who have days where “medication” was used but “meditation” was meant….
Hi,
for which system is the player guide for the Scarred Lands ?
Thanks
This current version is Pathfinder, like the adventure we put out last year. Nothing is stopping us from porting it to other systems though. We have ideas.
Is there a behind the scenes Making of the Scarred Lands setting anywhere? One of my favorite settings and I’ve pulled elements into many of my games in the years since it was released.
You know, I don’t know if we ever did that officially. Ask me a specific question about how it happened and I’ll tell you what I recall from that time.
I really like the Jack of Tears and the Blood Bayou, specifically the city of dreamers. Was Momus just a wild card or were / is there plans for an expanded roll in the metaplot? I haven;t read everything so if there was something beyond the gods book and Blood Bayou I missed it.
I’d like to make a suggestion for MAGE20.
Could we have Tradition20 INDIVIDUAL books instead of the omnibus format like you do in “Lore of the Clans”. I think the mystic paradigm of each of the Traditions really needs to go into great depth and I don’t think less than 30 pages per Tradition will be enough to do them justice. Especially because there should be numerous rotes for each Tradition section because examples of their magic is very instructive of HOW they do magic.
Satyr Phil is covering a bunch of the how’s in the How Do They DO That? book, but we’ll consider it. Mostly, there are a LOT of cool projects on tap for the M20 line, and committing to ten-ish Tradition books means you get nothing else for 2-3 years.
I’m OK with that.
Rich, Satryos covered this question in either the mage face book page or the m20 alumni page and if Memory serves me correctly, he is against doing the X tradition books because it would take too long research wise for starters (he said it would take longer than 3 years for that..) and he also likes say how do you do that ? m20 or such over a splat specific because they cover far more stuff than just a x tradition book.
Yep, we’ve discussed them before, which is where that comes from. Ultimately, if there is a serious reason to do them, and it works into our plans, then Satyr and I would figure out how best to do them.
The problem with the “How do you do That?” book is that like “Initiates of the Art” and “Masters of the Art” it ends up being far too generic and uninteresting. If all a player has to do is say “I’m using the Spheres: Forces 2, Entropy 2 and Time 2” then paradigms aren’t a part of the game at all. If they all essentially do magic the same way then there’s absolutely no point to different traditions or conventions for that matter.
Also, I’m very disappointed to hear that Brucato has taken the attitude that the traditions “would require too much research”. Does that mean MAGE20 is a dumbed-down version of the game?
“Also, I’m very disappointed to hear that Brucato has taken the attitude that the traditions “would require too much research”. Does that mean MAGE20 is a dumbed-down version of the game?”
…
I seriously don’t understand how OP writers handle crapola like this.
I’d hope that 90% of the writers have a heavy bag in their homes to punch for the idiocy they have to deal with on a weekly basis–whether on facebook, twitter, kickstarter, or here.
Oh poor you. I’m sure you’d like everyone to rollover and show their belly. But some of us like the games for very specific reasons.
You have no idea how How Do You DO That? will be presented or what will be contained in it. And as you have read from the man himself, no. Plus, being disappointed that the developer of a line isn’t creating the books you want does not give you license to jump to wild conclusions. Nowhere in anything we have talked about is there anything that suggests a lesser version- it’s fucking 700+ pages of Phil not dumbing down a damn thing!
Well, it was Jason who specifically stated that research time was a major issue with Brucato. And JASON said that Brucato said that Tradition Books as a concept was contrary to the way MAGE20 would be made. Traditions books are were paradigm is traditionally addressed. So unless each Tradition section is 90+ pages long – it seems as though paradigm isn’t considered a big deal
You want to discuss what might or might not be in the upcoming line, that’s fine. But I’m saying right now that you back off the whole “it seems as though paradigm isn’t considered a big deal”, or “Also, I’m very disappointed to hear that Brucato has taken the attitude that the traditions “would require too much research”. Does that mean MAGE20 is a dumbed-down version of the game?” These phrases take an antagonistic stance that presumes that any decision you personally don’t agree with is the result of not caring about that part of the line. You can explain what you’d like and why you like it without insulting our creative teams, and so I’d appreciate it if you approached your posts that way.
I will see if I can find the exact post.
Um, I said WHAT? Nope. Not my words in pretty much ever. 🙂
That’s not the reason at all, and the very idea of Mage 20 being “a dumbed down version of the game,” or an impression that “paradigms aren’t part of the game at all” could come only from someone who hasn’t read the dozens of excerpts I have posted from the book.
Why, then, am I not going to do Splat Book X, M20 Edition? Simply put, it would take forever to do different books for each “splat.” I mean, nine Traditions and five Conventions, plus whoever else we’d handle? That sort of schedule is possible only when you’re doing the 8-10 books per year, per line, that we did when White Wolf was going full steam ahead. Even then, it took YEARS to release those books, and the quality was… shall we say, inconsistent at best.
Besides all that, we already HAVE two editions of Trad/ Convention Book X. Does anyone really want us to blow 15 books or more on NEW ones, instead of doing new content that folks have not already seen before?
I DO have extensive plans for the line. We’ve already told folks about Technocracy: Reloaded, and there are similar books planned if and when the Mage series continues to grow and thrive. But yeah – OPP isn’t DOING dozens of books per line, so another approach is essential.
Seriously, I find the idea that I would EVER do “a dumbed down version” of ANYTHING, or that I shy away from research, may be the funniest thing I’ve heard all day. 🙂
I’ve just to write that every time I read something about technocracy:reload, I shiver like a child in the cold!
M20 will be amazing and I do love the splat books, but I think that having the updated ones of the technocrats and some “traditions20” book will be (if done properly) perfectly enough. Shall I say that I have no doubt that this line is on the best hands it can be?
I didn’t “meet” Satyros until the kickstarter and the Facebook updates, and I have to say that this project it’s extremely transparent! It’s amazing how some day some excerpt it’s shared by Satyros and not just that, but he even find time to answer our fan questions and allow us to discuss our opinions.
I’m afraid that any other project I will follow/fund will be ever near of that cozy mood.
As for paradigms and their associated practices and instruments, Mage 20 has over 20,000 words on that subject alone, with even more in The Book of Secrets and other forthcoming sourcebooks.
Does the Book of Secrets or “How do you Do That?” have Tradition specific sections?
I suspect that the memory about research came from the reasons I gave a few days ago about why I hate doing (and have no current plans to do) “City of Ascension” or other real-world area sourcebooks: Such books involve tons of research, effort and time, and yet are almost inevitably flawed, mistaken, and/ or offensive to folks from that region because you simply CAN’T fit the human complexities of a region and its associated cultures into 90,000 words or less.
At best, you wind up with an entertaining yet sketchy overview of a complicated place (like Chicago By Night). More often, you wind up with a reviled collection of ethnic and regional stereotypes (not naming any titles here, but I was responsible for at least one of them) and I don’t ever want to do that again.
Again, I DO have plans to do some area-type sourcebooks. But not city-books. And it’s really easy to get wires crossed and comments misrememebred when we’re all sharing the imperfect medium of the Internet. 🙂
Thanks for replying here. Eagerly awaiting M20 and other things like Technocracy Reloaded and the area books.
yeah that is it. And not to mention all of the comments that I have read, and you post, it’s sort of hard to remember who said what.
oooo… I received an unrepliable reply from RichT.
I reiterate, I was going by what JASON said. I don’t see any criticism of JASON. But that’s fine. Most people don’t like direct questions anyway.
My only advice to Onyx Path and whomever owns the licenses to White-Wolf’s World of Darkness properties is that the Kickstarters need to be absolutely transparent in EXACTLY what they’re going to develop. I didn’t pledge to MAGE20 precisely because there was insufficient information about how the game would look at the end of development.
I may still buy a copy of MAGE20 core rule book, however, I’m going to thoroughly research exactly what’s in it before I do.
If there isn’t a Reply option, that’s a function of the blog software, and not a special thing I can do. So oooooo, back atcha. Jason provided his recollection and Phil clarified it. Nothing in his posts seemed insulting or assumed an attitude on the part of our creative teams, so no issues there.
Direct questions are absolutely fine and you know that’s not the point, it’s the very things in your posts I specifically spelled out for you.
And yes, if you need to know exactly what is in a book before pledging, and that info is not there, then I think you totally did the right thing. Same thing applies to checking out books to see if they have what you want in them. Heck of a lot better than assuming and getting upset because you assumed wrong.
The blog currently allows comments nested to five levels (four replies to the original comment) before it stops allowing any further replies. That’s why the Reply option doesn’t show up sometimes.
Pugmire is looking more like a game I wanna play. Now just how to sell my group on it.
I wonder if the sniffing of the butt will be in Pugmier.. but it does look like a game that I would want to play as I do have a soft spot for our canine companions.
Personally, I find it puzzling how anyone could consider several dozen excerpts and almost daily posts, replies, an FAQ and Q&As on various forums to be a “lack of transparency.” But hey – to each their own.
Rich, any chance for Mirthful Mike to get a Kindred of the East or Vampires of the Ebony Kingdom shirt up on the Onyx Path Red Bubble store?
…maybe…
: )
“Red List – Also putting that one together. Probably asking KMJ to do the entire book.”
Yay!!! with all due respect to Samuel Araya, but personal taste I prefer KMJ`s Lasombra from the Player’s Guide for The Sabbat in 1992? (time flies!) 😉
By the way the layout of Lore of The Clans looks nice, I love backgrounds from Ravnos and Toreador pages
I’m not really sure how people can start criticising M20 on any level before it’s been released.
Moreover, when it comes to paradigm – which is the core of the game to me – I’ve always taken the text as a spingboard to explore paradigms from different sources rather than being a be-all-end-all aspect of the rulebooks themselves. I remember the old Ander’s Mage Page was a source of discovery, which eventually got into other reference books and so on. The depth you want to take it is open, and up to you and the players really. I will be changing the link between Hermetic magic and Forces, as I’ve said before, will also illustrates how you can still employ your own thoughts, regardless.
Anyway, my question relates to the physical format – which I have asked before too – but could their be an option in the drivethrurpg POD for separating the whole book into separate printed books?
My backer level is for the Quintessential edition, which will primarily be ornamental or reading book material. I want a big beautiful book, as ordered. However, I also want to play it, and it simply won’t be an option for me to use that book at the table. Partially, I don’t want it anywhere near a gaming table, for fear of it being damaged, but the practical size might well preclude it anyway.
If you could print out the whole thing into three books say (as the contents are often thematically divided) they could be passed around the table without much difficulty?
Just a suggestion. 🙂
I believe most of backers of the super fancy deluxe book level will receive a coupon to get a regular pod M20 printed as close to cost as possible.
Hi, I sent an email to Lisa about the leftover kickstarters and no reply yet.
are you already sold out?
She’s working her way through the emails, no worries.
Great, thanks for the quick answer 🙂
Dat pug is lookin’ swanky!
Also, what is this Reddit thing that’s being lined up? I’d love to see the subreddit get a little more love (i.e. more regulars posting :D)
The specific details regarding the AMA will be offered next week Monday per Rich’s post. It will take place here: http://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG
Should be fun!
My m20 is for the deluxe edition, the shielded initiate amount and even though it isn’t the Q-Prime edition, it too will be used for possibly reading and more or less a collection piece. I don’t table top, though I might get a PoD copy, but I will be using the PDF for practical purposes as it’s easier to carry and looks Snazzy on my Kindle.
I’m getting excited for EX3, but as the book gets closer all I can think of is “DRAGON BLOODS DRAGON BLOODS DRAGON BLOODS”… can’t wait to run a Terrestrial campaign with the new rules! Hoping the Princes of the Earth get the treatment they deserve.
Same thing with Trinity, my heart is set on Aberrant. Nothing against Aeon, Aberrant is just the first RPG I ever ran and I love it dearly. Hooray for superhero celebrities fighting (or causing) crime!
Maybe it’s a second child complex but I want those second books 😛
Hey now, Celestials are Princes of the Earth too. 🙂