I’m back! Gen Con was busier than I expected, and then there was a lot of post-Gen Con catchup work to do. But now things are back on track for Lore of the Clans.
Today is Clan Giovanni, written by Christopher Wilde. Here’s the link to the Google Doc:
Edit: Link removed now that open development is closed. Thank you!
Chris is a thousand words under in the mechanics section, and is a thousand words over in the history section (which will have to be cut down). However, when we talked it over, he said he actually wants to get some feedback via open development on what to consider for the missing wordcount. As always, I have some ideas of what to do, but we both want to know what you think. I’ll close comments on this one on Wednesday, September 3rd. I’ll put a big note on the document when I close it so it’s clear.
A few things to keep in mind, as always:
Keep calm and carry on: This is a preliminary draft. Things will likely change between this draft and the final book. If you see something weird or that you don’t agree with, don’t freak out. Just comment on the concerning area, and I’ll look into it. Certainly don’t give the writer shit for it or claim they don’t know what they’re talking about. There’s a possibility that we have something else in mind and it’s just not coming through.
Comments only: Everyone (except me) is restricted to comments only. Don’t bother editing the document, unless it’s because the text is unclear (see below). Don’t resolve someone else’s comments or mine, but feel free to discuss whatever makes sense. Please keep it civil, though, even if you disagree. If the conversation is going off-course, I’ll ask to shut it down.
Substance over style: I’m focusing purely on the content, not punctuation or grammar. That kind of refinement of the material will happen in a later draft. Don’t worry too much about commenting on those concerns, unless something makes the material confusing to understand.
Cards close to my chest: Because I don’t want to bias the discussion, I’m keeping my thoughts on how I want to redline this chapter to myself. I’ll certainly answer questions and help steer conversation away from unproductive avenues, but in general I want to see what you think, not tell you what I think.
Hope it’s okay to put my feedback here,.. I don’t really know how to edit Google docs and wouldn’t know where to put it as it is rather general,..
Given that the Giovanni are set as a very Independent Clan I would like to see more about the structure.
How does a family with in a city organize itself. Which ranks are given, which duties are set to the members. Some stuff about stats,how they are awarded, which titles are granted and how they are treated.
Given what I’ve read from the document it would be easier to set up a Ventrue only play opposed to a Giovanni focussed one which would be a shame in my opinion
For the statement that the Giovanni love tradition this segment is awfully short as well.
.
The Families integrated to the Clan fall rather short and it mostly feels like a flavored down version of the original. Maybe do a paragraph per family, but some substance in it and spicy it a bit up?
Like this I wonder if anyone would feel the urge to play a Char from a minor family as he won’t ever have to get a say. If this doesn’t change, maybe give em some change in the discipline set they got or special necromancy path.
The mechanics section so far is a lack luster to me.
Other Clans get tons of combo disciplines, cool new disciplines powers and stuff that really enhance them and the playing experience … yet the Giovanni got a meager Level 5 ritual. 🙁
Parts to cut down,..
It should be the Giovanni Clanbook. Not the Cappadocian one or the Harbinger of Skulls one or another Bloodline one. If I read a Clanbook about Giovanni I want to actually read about Giovanni. Not about other Clans of Bloodlines the Giovanni feel feeble against in comparision.
Its also Masquerade, so modern times. You can have some of the history of the Clan, but it should actually feature primarily the modern times.
On that note, I preferred it more when theres not so much of the “uhu we ain’t the Corleones” and more talk about the family. Instead of what they ain’t.
At the hand of history. It might actually be nice to get some more intel on the promise. Like how the Clan does do its dealing with both Sabbat and Camarilla without getting drawn to either.
If you consider the bloodlines, why the Clan sticks to be independent instead of briefly after noticing Harbinger of Skull within the Sabbat signing up for the Camarilla?
Hi, Teylen!
As it stands, I’m about 1000 words over on the clan’s history section, so I’m sure I’ll be cutting down some of the Cappadoccian stuff. I think it’s vital to have some Cappadocian/Harbingers information for context, since they are the root of the clan, and the Great Betrayal is such a thematically powerful part of the clan’s history.
And I’m pretty short on the rules section. Cards on the table: I had some medical issues while I was working on this, and I ran out of time on the first draft.. I have a few ideas I’m working on for the revisions to flesh out the Giovanni (and the other clan I’m working with, the Toreador) rules sections, but like Eddy says, I’m very open to suggestion!
Chris
At another note, ifs difficult to have the spirit slave background but only, very, very vague description about the ability of the ghost. There is no indication what a weak ghost, a greater or a stronger ghost should be able to do for the necromancer.
It also feels a bit awkward to read that the author feels torn about making a thing, merit or weakness, a Giovanni only thing because it would be cool for others (Harbinger and everyone with App 0) too. Shouldn’t the Giovanni section of the Lore of the Clan book provide the Giovanni with some exclusive stuff? It’s not like their getting a share in other Clan description in return,..
I disagree.
You know, looking for example at the Gangrel M&Fs, there are many that could apply to other clans. The Rat in a Cage flaw has some Gangrel flavour, but there is no reason other clan could get it, even a Giovanni. You can easily imagine a Nosferatu with the Member of the Pack flaw, or even with the Hive Mind merit.
I don’t think the important thing is that the M&Fs are exclusive, but that they have the clan flavour, or add an interesting twist to that clan.
Ah, the Giovanni, the place where an Italian like me can finally shine: in correcting the Italian nouns.
I kinda hoped to see down-played the mob-like, necrophiliac, inbreeding tendencies of the clan. I guess this will not happen, but I’ve seen worse.
I mean, yes, the Giovanni are a kind of mafia, but I don’t think they would actually pose as mafiosi. The Mafiosi operating in the North are usually… subtler in their actions. Less extortion, more white-collar crimes. There’s actually a reason for this: the various Mafie are “traditionally” from Southern Italy. Some people think of the Mafia as a strictly southern phenomenon. The Mafiosi in the North profit from this. Venice is actually one of the last places I expected a Mob Clan to come from (but maybe that’s the whole point, isn’t it?).
Furthermore, I wanted to point this out.
“I mean, even a normal mostly ignorant Giovanni household is morbid and a little necromantic, revering ancestors, making offerings to spirits and all that, but we’re Italian! A lot of that comes with the territory.”
Sometimes I really wonder what pictures people have of my country. I get the point (these are psycho-Italian-vampires!) but still…
Perhaps you’d like to have a short “lexicon” for Italian words a Giovanni would use? Just ask, I just can’t picture an anziano speaking English willy-nilly. Or Italian, for that matter. The image of a seven hundred years old vampire threatening un neonato in the Venetian dialect is a mix between horror and comedy.
I have not read the text in depth, because my Storyteller forbids it, but I got the impression the mafiosi style was toned down a lot in comparison of past sources, which I applaude a lot.
The narrator seems to be a well educated man (at least to an imperfect english reader), as according to a world socio-economic elite member, as should be any member of the Giovanni, and not like low class bad mouthed italoamerican stereotype, which is like sounded to me previous text. This low class bad mafiosi style has always annoyed in one of the richest families of the world, as well as many mentions to their horrible accents, while they have access to the better education. They should talk perfect English in a perfect accent.
I’m not Italian. I’m Spanish, but I was shocked at the cited text. What dos italians have to do with necromancy or even spirit offerings? I think the best way a developer can do when writing about the Giovanni is to forget about italian stereotypes (and what stereotypes!) and focus on a family that is elite in the world, rich beyond imagination, extended worldwide and keep a terrible secret.
I did drop a lot of the mob-ness, or at least let it fade into the background. There are a few spots where it’s still there, like the Putanesca family and the way the Camarilla stereotypes the clan, but in general I wanted to accentuate the necromantic family aspect of the clan.
Most of my knowledge of Italian is kind of second-hand, based almost entirely on my knowledge of Latin and French, and some stuffy academic translations, so any assistance there is GREATLY appreciated. I’m sure I miss idiom and use the wrong form of words.
As for the quoted text, I meant specifically the tendency for old, old Italian families to be traditional, have lots of antique/heirloom furniture and to be Catholic. And of course, old school Catholicism is a big pile of ceremony, morbid fascination with dead saints (and their bones, see: reliquaries), and baroque drama.
Chris
Let me repeat myself a little.
Congratulations for toning down the mob-ness. As I said, it annoyed me a lot in a clan whose members usually go the the best schools and colleges money can buy.
Honestly, I had very little hope the mafiosi, bad accent and foul mouthed Giovanni stereotype would be corrected. Thank you for the surprise.
“I did drop a lot of the mob-ness, or at least let it fade into the background.”
Well, that’s right, I just always get jumpy when something Italian gets referenced, and there is Mafia in it. Which is always. I’m sorry. I actually like what you wrote!
About the Putanesca… I know you probably can’t retcon the name, but it’d be “Puttanesca”. Which is also a kind of pasta, which bring us full circle with the stereotypes. Really, I don’t envy your job, the Giovanni were a mess. Also, I saw some changes to the names of the other families were already made, like RosselLini (Rosellini is possible, but it really reeks of being a mistake, and I actually know some Rossellini! Fun fact of the night), and Della Passaglia (“Della” stands for the feminine singular form of “of”, and it’s capitalized), and I fully endorse them.
“Most of my knowledge of Italian is kind of second-hand, based almost entirely on my knowledge of Latin and French, and some stuffy academic translations, so any assistance there is GREATLY appreciated. I’m sure I miss idiom and use the wrong form of words.”
I put some comments in the text anonimously, hope it helps. I’m on the forums if needed.
Maybe I’d put some “Necromanzia” for Necromancy, or even Negromanzia (which is much less used nowadays because the first part of the name is actually our n-word, but it’s the form closer to Latin), or Nec/gromante.
“As for the quoted text, I meant specifically the tendency for old, old Italian families to be traditional, have lots of antique/heirloom furniture and to be Catholic. And of course, old school Catholicism is a big pile of ceremony, morbid fascination with dead saints (and their bones, see: reliquaries), and baroque drama”
Uh… yes. That’s true. I see saints everywhere I go. Mind you, it’s usually Padre Pio, who is really recent as far as saints go and someone a Giovanni probably wouldn’t care about. And the southern you go (my parents come from there, I’m from Rome), the more catholicism has the trappings of paganism (the saint thing but overblown, evil eyes, and old women capable of dispelling them). It’s wonderful.
Moving on. Maybe adding a clarification in the text? I know it’d probably ruin the whole flow.
By Rosellini I obviously meant Rosselini.
Rosellini is more Italian-y, so… you have another choice there. If you can change at all.
I add to the congratulations.
The Italian clichés, like the mafia, but not only the mafia, are mistakes that were very enforced in previous clanbooks. I understood a little better since last holidays when I visited New York, and learn a little about its culture. The contact that the USA people has had with Italians is very specific: low life people who migrated to America looking for a better life. They had very little education, they spoke bad English and they often involved in crime, since there was few jobs for them apart from restaurants.
This is the main contact that the American culture had with Italians, and because of this that kind of stereotypes are engraved by fire in the USian subconscious. But that is by pure logic very far from what the Giovanni can be: where ones were poor, the others are absurdly rich; where ones were poorly educated, the others had studied in the betters schools and universities; where ones did not speak a good English or did with a rough accent, the others probably learned to speak as a native.
At the bottom of all this is the misconception that the Giovanni is the clan of the Italian vampires. No, there are probably more italian Lasombra than Giovanni. Even more Ventrue or Toreador. The Giovanni is a clan about a high status family who has a clean reputation, but dirty secrets. And they happen to be Italian, but that identity gives them color and flavor, but is not what defines them (nor viceversa, Italian vampires does not equal to Giovanni).
I used the comparison with the Adams Family (in the Google Doc I am Urbano Soft). I think that the Giovanni are more similar to them (even if they are Italian and the Adams anglo-saxon) that to a medium Italian family.
As I said, this is the first version that does not fall too much in the stereotypes, so thank you very much to take this subject seriously.
Hi, Teylen!
As it stands, I’m about 1000 words over on the clan’s history section, so I’m sure I’ll be cutting down some of the Cappadoccian stuff. I think it’s vital to have some Cappadocian/Harbingers information for context, since they are the root of the clan, and the Great Betrayal is such a thematically powerful part of the clan’s history.
And I’m pretty short on the rules section. Cards on the table: I had some medical issues while I was working on this, and I ran out of time on the first draft.. I have a few ideas I’m working on for the revisions to flesh out the Giovanni (and the other clan I’m working with, the Toreador) rules sections, but like Eddy says, I’m very open to suggestion!
I think it’s important for each clan to have stuff that fits it better than it fits anyone else, but in general, I think that when a thing *can* be used in a more robust way, it’s best to leave the door open for players and storytellers to do interesting and fun things. In the case of the mortuari, I feel like thematically, they fit the Giovanni and the Harbingers both very well… But it also seems like a pretty good story hook for, say, a Toreador to find himself beholden to a necromancer because his sire made a deal with the Giovanni to embrace him after he’d died in a car wreck, or something like that.
Chris
An idea I always kicked around for the giovanni was having a different in clan discipline spread for each family that made more sense thematically for them.
Just a thought.
I would be down for that, especially since there are a few who have so little interest in Necromancy… But that’s more Eddy’s call than mine.
The next aspect of the Giovanni would be the modern days.
I did assume so far that the Giovanni would most likely group in a big mansion or at least hold regular family meetings, discussing stuff like progress in regards of necromancy, economics as well of prospects within the mortal line of their family.
Currently, within the books and the draft, there is no structure given. Nothing.
Ventrue got Dignitas, Tremere the Pyramid, Setites are provided with a cult like structure. Yet the Giovanni, even as they are described as probably the most structured Clan, even surpassing the Tremere, haven’t got any description regarding their structure at all. It might be nice if they were part of a sect, but they aren’t. They are independent.
I would like to read something about the hierarchy.
How the boss is called, which age related status are granted, how certain family positions are named.
Which titles are available what they tell, which responsibilities they bring, which duties, where are the benefits, how to gain those titles.
Currently there is only one status named, Anziani (Elder) apart from the Anziani there is nothing. Characters will be just in a big grey mass of basically not Anziani.
Makes me feel like if I were a Giovanni I might like to join the Camarilla let alone for nice status recognitions, titles and actual responsibilities, stuff to do.
Apart from that I would like to have a presentation of the Families.
According to the draft Giovanni have gotten neither bloodlines nor cults or factions to speak of which could be used in a Giovanni centered play. Players could just play in the “bring the Antedeluvian down” and the “Don’t” corner.
Why don’t use the Families as basically kind of bloodlines?
Factions with valid own interests and more characterization as ‘bullied by the actual Giovanni’?
I think you can already save some words if you merge the duplicated description of the families.
I would like to have a more detailed description of the extensive and the more interesting families. It would be the Rosselini, which where the first family to be taken into the folg, the Dunsirn, they could take a few nods from Hannibal and make some morbid necromancy around it, the Milliner in regards of wealth and the Ghiberti and Pisanob as examples of culturally vastly different branches.
It would be nice if minor families would get maybe a sentence per family.
Regarding the description it would be cool to have:
) The reason why they were taken into the fold
) Characteristics and maybe a Clans discipline switched for another
) Achievements of the Family in Question and their Reward.
Please don’t make it ‘No reward, only bullied HaHa’ as it would really push my suspense of disbelieve to have a family for 300 or more years that only got bullied and didn’t rebel. The Giovanni aren’t stupid and they took them in for a reason, they value them more then those outsider.
Regarding factions or cults, maybe keep them a bit more constructive then “We want to kill Augustus”.
There could be a faction really eager to tear the veil down, maybe trying alternative ways.
There could be a faction counteracting the endless veil after being warned, while still working on the Clans success.
There could be a faction thats more Catholic and seeks for a more cooperative way to interact with wraith.
There could maybe be an atheist faction or stuff,..
.. stuff one could use if establishing a Giovanni game in Boston or New Orleans. The whole approach to take down Augustus, the Clans Antedeluvian, the reason why they got their stronghold, feels not like something someone wants to do who loves to play a Giovanni, but more catering to players who want to play characters which want to bring the Giovanni down and need a easy shortcut that basically makes fun of the Intelligence of the Giovanni and doesn’t mix up with the strict hierarchy.
I would like to have maybe a mention of the Ghoul familiars that will be mentioned in the new Ghoul book. It might be enough, sufficient to say they got some Ghoul breeding going on.
Next to the families the idea of Traditions is good.
Even though the statement “We got traditions because we are Italians” made me cringe. Couldn’t they have traditions because they are a roughly 700 year old clan which sprung from a traditional family?
I wouldn’t say “I mope because I am German” but rather “I mope because I am mopey” or whatever. ^^;
I would keep the description of the tradition more concise.
A Paragraph per tradition.
Traditions could be stuff like The Proxy Kiss, The Choosing,The Becoming, The last Night , The honored Dead, The Cleansing, The 4th of April
The traditions should have some every night value, maybe? Maybe some traditions around relationships between Giovanni. About Achievements. Maybe just traditions around the worshiping Elders which got mentioned a lot but not detailed.
Basically, again stuff that could be brought into play.
There could be some part about Wraith, Spirit Slaves and maybe some Fluff text, but I guess including the aforementioned may already eat up the word count.
In regards of NSC, I’d drop Ambrogino and maybe Include Isabella? I’d Probably also drop that talk about patriarchy. It’s what people expect of the Giovanni, but given the vast amount of female Giovanni in the canon, it doesn’t feel right to describe them as oh so patriarchal.
Last thing I’d like to address. Hope it isn’t to critical.
Yet I really, really, really *really* dislike the the character concepts.
The first one is so dull and normal I got bored in the one paragraph it got.
The second one is basically defining a character only by his discipline, which in my opinion isn’t really a concept.
The third one … please, please don’t call a concept Goombah and proceed to basically describe the very cliche of a mobster brute character. I am not a native speaker of English but if my translator is right you really should maybe reconsider it?
I don’t got any issues with the idea of a basically mob oriented Giovanni, but I would love to have a concept thats basically “cliche sicilian mafia thug”. Maybe you could go someway more sophisticated? Tony Soprano was more busy running his family then busting kneecaps if I remember correctly.
Maybe a bit more in the line of “Nucky Thompson with ghosts”?
That all said, thanks for reading so far ^^;
I have to say, while I have loved the stuff done for the other clans, the Giovanni treatment is completely underwhelming. It has been said in the the previous comments how the other clans get a bunch of new game stuff (combo disciplines, merits, elder level disciplines) while the Giovanni get a new ritual, 2 backgrounds that feel rushed and unsupported and a couple of /meh merits. It all feels a touch cut & paste.
I am hoping that the devs come up with something more than what they have presented to us. I would like to know more about the future of the Giovanni, maybe more of a branch of the core family that discover the plans of the Endless Night and try to stop it, thus forming a schism in the clan. And Necromancy have forever been the poor cousin to Thaumaturgy in regard to Rituals and Paths and general support which is a true shame as the theme of Necromancy is amazing and fits so well with the WoD. There is a lot of untapped aspects of necromancy that can be developed into a path/rituals, from exorcism to drawing and channeling portions of the Shadowlands through you (fear and dread and horror type path) to Loa and other skin riding abilities (allowing the vampire ‘horse’ to gain abilities for the wraith rider) and finally the one of the staples of spiritual necromancy (voodoo) the Doll (a series of rituals that compliment a main ‘Create Voodoo Doll’ ritual, with each ritual allowing a limited amount of control, pain, damage, etc).
I understand that space/word count is an issue, but Giovanni/Necromancy fans have been waiting a long time for something new and have twice now (this and Rites of the Blood) have been left wanting.
Sorry for sounding so negative, which believe me I am not. I am loving the work you guys are doing and having life returns the CWoD (my favorite game system/setting) is sheer magic, but I am just pointing out what I feel is a fumble on a clan when there are many ways to address this.
Thanks for your time,
M.
As I mentioned in the post, Chris came in under wordcount on the mechanics section, and is looking for ideas!
There will definitely be more in the rules section. That area still needs to be fleshed out. The Necromantic aspects of Voudon is more in line with the Samedi than the Giovanni, imo, but I agree that a Catholic-themed Necromantic path sounds like it would be great for them.
Beside the catholic aspect, how about to give them some nice stuff based on the spirtism movement. They also branched their necormancy out to aztecs, mayan, inca stuf (Pisanob), they branched into africa (Ghiberti), to asia (Passangila, Li Wei) to Kabbalists (Rothstein) to deathcultists (Koenig) and even people that are like “irish folklore stuff (Durnsirn).
It frustates me a lot that every even so little bloodline get a better, more extensive and really cool treatment of their necromancy – be it Harbingers, Samedi, Nagraja, Kiyasid – while the Giovanni, one of the major Clans, are being totally left wanting. 🙁
Be it that theres close to no write up on the mechanical side or that on the history side extinct Clans and obscure Bloodlines, NSCs working at the destruction of the Clan get a bigger focus then the Clan itself 🙁
Why couldn’t they get such a fantastic draft to start on like the setites?
Like this it feels like even the most energy put into to give suggestions can’t fix that draft.
Specially if suggestions then get turned down or deflected with arguments reading like “That thing would be cool, but we’ll keep it for that bloodline.” or basically “Cappadocian history is so ‘important’ (and much more interesting) then actual Giovanni history. Even as the Clan is extinct and not really relevant to the Giovanni for roughly the last 400+ years.”
Teylen, it’s clear you’re very passionate about this. Chris and I are taking all of this into consideration, and we’ll see what we can do on the next draft. Not all suggestions are going to be a good fit for this project, but that isn’t the same as saying that we’re not putting energy into the Giovanni as much as with all the other Clans.
I look forward to digging into all your ideas once it’s time for me to send my final redlines to Chris!
Ah cool, thanks 🙂
Its true that I am passionated about the Giovanni, they are my favorite Clan by far. I hope I wasn’t to frank.
Thanks for digging into my ideas and considering them 🙂
(hope it’s okay to do small comments like those, as I am not like, giving new stuff in, just wanted to say a brief thanks and a sorry as well if I came across as to harsh ^^)
Hm, seems like the longer post that needed to be greenlit to appear won’t be.
So I try to put it shorter.
Regarding the history I would like to kindly ask to focus at the actual history of the Giovanni.
How they manage to overcome their parent clan and a bloodline.
How they survived the years they were considered devil kindred.
How they brokered the promise with the Camarilla and the Sabbat. Why they do keep faithful to it considering the Sabbat offers the Harbinger of Skulls a place.
How they co-exist given they’re big influence in the industry, banking would most likely lead to a conflict of interest with Clans like the Ventrue.
I think it would provide more material to play a Giovanni then information about a Clan they eradicated about more then half a millenia ago and a bloodlines that is more linked to the Cappadocians as to the Giovanni.
As a note, we’ve been approving all comments, so you might want to check that the issue isn’t on your end.
I did, I tried to post it about three times. The third time it told me that I already had posted it. So I figured the long version would be somewhere in the approval queue.
After it didn’t show up I just decided to make that short version.
I considered that the short version might be better anyways. ^.^
It’s more to the point what I would like to see and why I want it there ^.^
In the “Ancient Rome” section, last paragraph, there is a typo.. there is a ‘fro’ when it should be ‘from’
Thanks, but I’ve already closed comments on this. I’m not too worried about typos at this stage, however, as I mentioned in the original post. 🙂