Next up for Lore of the Clans are the Ravnos, written by Ree Soesbee. Here’s the link to the Google Doc:
Edit: Link removed now that open development is closed. Thank you!
Two notes:
1) I’m aware of a few instances of the word “gypsy” within the document. There were some tense discussions about the validity of the word in the Gangrel open development, and I have a direction I want to go with that. There’s no need to have that conversation again here.
2) Ree is short in the mechanics section, and would love some feedback on what to include there. As always, I have some ideas of what to do, but we both want to know what you think. I’ll close comments on this one on Friday, September 5th. I’ll put a big note on the document when I close it so it’s clear.
A few things to keep in mind, as always:
Keep calm and carry on: This is a preliminary draft. Things will likely change between this draft and the final book. If you see something weird or that you don’t agree with, don’t freak out. Just comment on the concerning area, and I’ll look into it. Certainly don’t give the writer shit for it or claim they don’t know what they’re talking about. There’s a possibility that we have something else in mind and it’s just not coming through.
Comments only: Everyone (except me) is restricted to comments only. Don’t bother editing the document, unless it’s because the text is unclear (see below). Don’t resolve someone else’s comments or mine, but feel free to discuss whatever makes sense. Please keep it civil, though, even if you disagree. If the conversation is going off-course, I’ll shut it down.
Substance over style: I’m focusing purely on the content, not punctuation or grammar. That kind of refinement of the material will happen in a later draft. Don’t worry too much about commenting on those concerns, unless such an error makes the material confusing to understand.
Cards close to my chest: Because I don’t want to bias the discussion, I’m keeping my thoughts on how I want to redline this chapter to myself. I’ll certainly answer questions and help steer conversation away from unproductive avenues, but in general I want to see what you think, not tell you what I think.
I’m a fan of Clan Ravnos and I really liked how Ree wrote them up.
If anything, I’d like to see some merits/flaws or combo disciplines for the Brahmin (the reputed seers, oracles and the like of the Clan) and have never been explored in much depth.
Eagerly waiting for Lasombra, Ventrue and Tzimisce
Lasombra came and went a few weeks ago, but Ventrue and Tzimisce should be soon!
What, where
Oh
Cool beans
I know you “don’t want to have that discussion again,” but unless the “direction you want to go with that is “cutting all instances of it” (like you said on the Gangrel doc), I’m going to be rightfully upset.
My stance on it is the same as it was on Gangrel.
I read through and commented; I enjoyed this on the whole though I had a number of criticisms/suggestions. On the whole, I would like to see the Clans less focused on ethnic roots, and more focused on the modern culture of the Clan and what kind of vampires the Clan produces. I think this chapter had some good nods in that direction, which I appreciate a lot.
So I didn’t take part in the conversations during the Gangrel discussion. As such I don’t know where things are in terms of philosophy, but I really REALLY dislike where the Ravnos went in Revised. We can be as exceptionally PC as we want, but Gypsies have serious roots in the horror genre going back to Dracula and his gypsy servants. I’m all for avoiding the glorification of them, but I’m also against trying to remove them from a game that has really always tried to be an all encompassing representation of the set of genres that vampires inhabit. That just seems sterile, which this game has never been. I say that as a player who even in high school prefered most Black Dog supplements to normal White Wolf label supplements. I don’t play World of Darkness for it’s cultural cleanliness.
Also, I have to just come out and say that the change of the Ravnos in Revised basically caused me to stop buying Vampire books. I own V20 for the rules, but I haven’t purchased any supplements because my favorite clan was always the Ravnos. The Weig, vampires are abominations, amaranth or destruction of elders for the betterment of society for the win Ravnos. When the Ravnos were excised from the game and this strange alien Karma oriented Clan took their place, (because let’s be honest aside from illusions and traveling 2nd ed and Revised Ravnos have nothing in common) I lost interest in the game because they were hands down my favorite clan. Then viscissitude ceased to be a disease, and the Toreadore Antitribu lost viscissitude. I just . . . I don’t even know. For me the shift between 2nd edition vampire cannon and revised vampire cannon was almost as much of a turnoff as the move to nWoD. This content is incredibly well written, and beautifully developed and from some other game world unrelated to the one I grew up playing in.
Satyros has been going to great lengths to setup the Mage content to allow for play in the style an with the cannon from 2nd edition, or in the style of Revised. He’s done a lot of communicate that dynamic to the fans and produce a text that allows for players who’s hearts were won by the game at all stages in it’s development. I really REALLY want that style for V20. I know the core V20 book was developed when development was still an in house CPP thing, and so it’s a bit more of a “product” than W20 and M20 have the freedom to be. I’d really like to see the V20 supplements start to move in that direction instead of keeping with the terribly revised tone of the core V20 text. Sadly from this that doesn’t seem to be the direction that is going in. I will hold out hope for the new Tal Ma’ Ra book that’s been announced. Maybe I’ll finally get something that’s set in the world of darkness I fell in love with in the mid 90’s. Right now this is definitely not that book.
Having a clan of gypsies whose weakness is to having to roll Self-control to avoid engaging in crimes is not only very, very racist, is also a dumb notion to me, a very silly archetype.
I think that you in the US have a very different contact with gypsies. The stereotypes I read in your books and see in your movies is more like the mild crime: robbery, trickery, etc. Here in Spain gypsies often live in pockets of poverty and have alarming illiteracy rates. The type of crimes you see in the news associated to them is drug trafficking, armed assault, kidnapping, and other severe crimes. This is very serious stuff. And the original Ravnos is like stating that those things does not appear because their difficult social situation, but they come in the blood. It is fiction, but is like a metaphor for that.
Really, I would not like to have a clan of Spaniards whose weakness is to be lazy, drunk or whatever stereotype you have about us. The catholic vein of the Lasombra comes from that, and that even bothers me a bit (more because it doesn’t make sense with the rest of the clan features).
For the record, Eddy said his stance here is the same as his stance in the Gangrel section, which, upon checking that, is to “remove all instances of the word ‘gypsy.'” So I think maybe people are missing that. Just thought I’d put that out there.
So I hunted down the Gangrel conversaion and I have to say I’m totally fine with removing the Gypsy term in general. I personally think given how the other clans view the Ravnos there is a place for including it and treating it as a slur used outside the clan (again this is adult content we should be able to acknowledge that the darker aspects of the world exist but we should also not treat them as if they are acceptable), though I certainly agree that it should be removed as a general use term. My larger issue is with the shift away from the Ravnos being a purely traveling Romani clan. They will never be a multi ethnic clan to me, that’s just a change I really disliked and despite the original Path of Paradox’s ties to the external views of the Romani as thieves I still think it could be developed and handled in an reasonable adult way without leaving players who loved the 2nd Ed Ravnos on a complete lurch.
Hi.
This is best Ravnos writing I have read (and I read the previous clanbooks).
I like how the focus goes from an ethnic group to some vampire archetypes. I only see two (related) flaws:
1) The description of the average ravnos is too attached to the Path of Paradox. I think the Ravnos outside of India, being a disorganized and chaotic clan, should have lost part of the strict adherence to the path. I think that the path that fits with the average neonate Ravnos is Humanity, much more than Paradox. Even if it is a particular approximation to Humanity, with less emphasis in law and order and more in freedom and living the life with intensity. I see the Path of Paradox as a thing for elders and some mysterious guys, but the average Ravnos should be attached to Humanity.
2) The text presents the Ravnos as they never hurt a fly. All that we think about them (theft, lies, trickery) are misconceptions and if Ravnos left us believe that is because it suits them, but the Ravnos protect mortals and fight demons, and save prisoner from the nazi camps. I would admit some of the blame, make them a clan of tricksters, seducers and lovable rogues who prize freedom upon rules and laws. Make them to sometimes confirm the stereotypes if only because the mistrust of other Kindred don’t leave them another way out. Make them to succumb their vices sometimes, hurting even more their reputation.
My feedback on this is that it’s too clean. I grew up learning about Ravnos through the eyes of Khalil Ravana. Curse words, nasty thoughts and no single inch of honor. I feel as I’m reading about Ventrue or Toreador Paladins in this text, painting these scumbags as the most misunderstood clan of all times.
If this is the approach you guys wanna do then I suggest that you at least put some more focus into describing how nasty and twisted their curse is.
I like what I have read, but I miss the fourth traditional ‘caste’, the Shudra. I think that in the Clanbook: Ravnos Revised, Shudra was the Ravnos’ term for ‘ghouls’.
I would use Chandala for ‘ghouls’ and Shudra for the servant jati.
I agree with Anda: this post feels far too clean. It makes it sound as though the Ravnos aren’t tricksters at all, but holy vampires who just get a bad rap because of their weakness. I got a very good sense of the clan’s history, but a poor one of what it meant to be Ravnos in modern nights. This was particularly true for the castes; I’m a new player of VtM and I have no idea what its like to be a warrior or brahmin, and how that affects neonates. The Ravnos so far are my favorite clan, but I haven’t gotten a good feel for how to play one other than “they travel, they trick, and everyone hates them.”