A lot of what we’re doing right now at Onyx Path is catching up with both the stuff that drifted a bit with Gen Con attendance and prep, and scheduling talks and meetings with the folks we met there. There should be some fun announcements coming up in terms of who we’re working with on upcoming projects. Eddy and I talked a lot about that and the overall way that Onyx Path is getting out the idea of how we’re handling the WW license and our new projects. Overall, I was pretty happy with our panels and stuff as I mentioned last week, but then we discussed how some of the response to the new Schedule was evidence that the message about how Onyx Path is doing things hasn’t yet sunk in to all of our potential community. Let me finish with the meeting topics and I’ll delve in more deeply to the Schedule.
At the Con I was reading a Mike Hammer omnibus, which naturally led to Eddy and I talking about noir genre tropes and Eddy’s take on the heavy christian symbolism present in the Hammer novels. There’s certainly an “Old Testament”, eye for an eye, vibe in the first three novels I read. Not having read Micky Spillane before, I thought his prose was compelling and could clearly be seen as inspiring Frank Miller’s Sin City, but also James Ellroy and Andrew Vachss. And yet, as I told Eddy today, I’m not sure about the series- I’m not going to spoiler it up here, but let’s say that the targets of his bullets in the last chapter of each book all have things in common that even I, not the most socially/politically sensitive guy, find a bit concerning. So, I’m only thinking of maybe checking out the fourth book rather than grabbing it as planning to. In other news, Eddy’s role in being my contact at CCP has also grown a bit from approvals to also managing some of the business aspects as far as CCP is concerned, so that’s good news for me, although Eddy, as always, has more work to do. 🙂
Now, on to the Schedule.
The purpose of the Schedule is pretty much as we labelled it in the brochure: to let folks know which projects we intend to do for which lines in the year to come and the order we intend to work on them. The order of release is put into months because we all need a level of structure to use as a framework for everything from creating a development/editing/layout schedule internally, to allocating manpower in our freelancer pool, to noting what books happening near each other can create some kind of synergy. Our intention is to hit those months with our releases, but we have the understanding that they may not. Our publishing business model is, in fact, specifically designed to give us the flexibility to make the call to delay release if we feel doing so will improve some aspect of the book or the experience of the game in general.
Let me say that again, because it really is a serious change in how we operated in the WW days and really changes how we roll now: the ability to miss the projected release date for a good reason is part of our overall business plan. We don’t want to miss the release month, but we’re able and willing to if it makes for a better release when it does go on sale.
Now that’s not to say that there aren’t downsides to this model- there really, really, are. Erosion of customer confidence, loss of momentum for a new line if the supplements roll out late, lots of books falling out of one year and into the other meaning we have an explosion of books in one month and none the month before, and an erratic cash-flow issue that can really cripple a new business; these are just some of the issues that could still bite us hard and wreck Onyx Path. But I’m taking the chance that you folks would rather have a later book done really well, than something forced together just in time to hit a release date scheduled as much as a year and a half earlier. Another aspect of the Schedule that came up talking with Eddy, is the fact that the Schedule you can download or hold in your hands is the same one we are working off of. There’s no “fake dates” version running around because that really seems to run counter to the idea of Onyx being as open and transparent as we can be with you all. I’d rather takes the lumps of failing in front of all of you than give you or our teams false dates- which in the case of a few of our projects we still would have blown past anyway.
So, that’s the idea behind the Schedule itself (which is, after all, something that we evolve and change as we know things will shift, and is only the beginning of project news with the very weekly Updates found below as an ongoing window into where each project is), and in the coming weeks I hope to give you an idea for why the books listed were selected as the ones we’re doing, and to focus on a couple of them in more detail than we could put in the Schedule.
Your weekly window into the project world of Onyx Path:
– Strix Chronicle Fiction Anthology (VtR) The PDF and electronic format versions are on sale now at DTRPG/DTFiction: http://www.drivethrufiction.com/product/117396/The-Strix-Chronicle-Anthology If you already purchased them you should have received an Updated notice in your DTRPG library as we made a few minor changes. Waiting for new PoD proofs to put this totally on sale- thanks for the help!
– Blood and Smoke: The Strix Chronicle (VtR) Final dev pass. Art notes out to a couple of main artists.
– Mummy the Curse – Deluxe and Screen: On road from printer to the shipper. The MtC Ready Made Characters Pack is waiting for new art and then it will be ready for approvals from CCP. Cursed Necropolis DC being written and its cover has been approved.
– Exalted 3rd Edition: While John hunkers down to rewrite the Charms chapter, the rest of the team is working on a couple of EX3 chapters that continue to be finalized for Editing. Contracts for Matt Forbeck and Jess Hartley’s EX3 novels as well as Zub’s comic are being created and their notes from the Devs are going out with the contracts.
– V20 Hunters Hunted 2: Deluxe is ready for assembly. The PDF is live on DTRPG and I’m waiting on new corrected PoD proofs this week, I hope. Justin has sent almost all of the HH2 Fiction Anthology text and once the cover text is delivered, it will go to editing.
– V20 Anarchs Unbound is in editing and we are getting art for it.
– Deluxe Werewolf 20th Anniversary Edition: At binding. Mike Lee is submitting chapters of the W20 “Houses of the Moon” novel to Bill for dev review. The Storyteller Screen files are done and ready for W20. Bill has theW20 Anthology stories done and they are in editing. Jess Hartley continues writing the White Howlers Tribe Book and the W20 Cookbook is almost done in editing
– Deluxe Mage the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition has Phil Brucato writing like a maniac and has most of the book written and we are prepping an editor for this big ol’ thing. Very early sketches for the fulls from Michael William Kaluta look awesome. Almost all of the finals pieces were approved. Trying to get Mirthful Mike Chaney to start an art blog.
– W20 Changing Breeds Kickstarter expanded material being written, and the Changing Breeds Fiction Anthology is being edited/developed by Jess Hartley.
– W20 Rage Across the World: All the art is in, approved, and going into the book.
– Guildhalls of the Deathless (MtC) layout is waiting on a couple of pieces of art and then its done and ready for CCP approvals.
– Conventionbook: Syndicate (cMtA) PDF version is live and we are incorporating changes pointed out by you, our community.
– Conventionbook: Void Engineers (cMtA) is in editing. Art is all in and going into CCP approval.
– W20 Book of the Wyrm is ready for editing, this morning actually.
– V20 Rites of the Blood: is in editing, Eddy is preparing art notes.
– Under the Darkening Sky (classic Dark Ages): Writers are writing. David is sending Mirthful Mike art notes for the cover.
– Trinity Continuum: We now have a whopping big Aeon outline and a Trinity Continuum Core Book outline. Lots of word count, format, and schedule talk- had several very cool discussions at Gen con with creators, and fans at the panels.
– Scion: Joe’s team is hammering systems- big time. Joe is getting back up to speed.
– Demon: The Descent: The text is now in editing! Art has been assigned. Demon Quickstart PDF is free on DTRPG.
– Hunter: The Something About Monsters: Writers are writing.
Reason to Drink: Despite 25+ years in this biz, I am just not a professional.
Will “Under the Darkening Sky” be for Vampire: The Dark Ages or for Dark Ages: Vampire|Werewolf|Mage|etc ?
Also, I completely agree and support that missing a deadline is a feature and not a bug. The books Onyx Path are producing are very found on it’s community. So true fans will accept delayed releases.
In fact, we can reduce this into a very simple decision, What would I prefer, a delayed awesome book, or no book at all? I think the answer is clear 🙂
So, keep on rockin! 🙂
“So true fans will accept delayed releases.”
Yes. I’m not a true fan because I’m upset that V20 Companion was 3 months late, V20 CotR was 3 months late, Mummy is 8 months late, W20 is 10 months late, HH2 is 3 months late, and Exalted will be late.
Only true fans accept lateness and love it and love everything and love to love.
Late only to an estimate, not to a firm deadline.
Darkening Sky includes sections for vampires, werewolves, magi, inquisitors, and fae. As such, it’s for the latter Dark Ages setting.
Quite looking forward to the Making of the Art of W20 PDF. The Art in W20 is really fantastic. Cheers!
Thanks! Yes, me too.
The new Tribe art is especially gorgeous.
Ron and Prescott did AMAZING work in W20.
I too am looking forward to the W20 Artwork book. I’m curious if it’s going to have just the W20 Core artwork, or include artwork from W20/CB/RAtW/BotW and other books of the W20 (making it a much more beefy and fun book. 🙂 )
Though, I STILL would love to see some other werewolf artists out there in the fandom get in on W20 books too (Goldenwolf, Dark Natasha, etc.).
If you want an example, check out the 2014 (and earlier) werewolf calendars http://www.werewolfcalendar.com — it’s not WoD-canon, but shows the talent out there by people who (many of them) grew up on W:tA and it inspired them to become artists.
Including the companion volumes would be very cool indeed. Although I don’t recall seeing it as a goal in the list for CB. I could be mistaken.
Are you able to share your thoughts on when the demon kickstart may roughly begin? I have been saving my pennies.
We don’t have a firm date.
To elaborate a little on that, Demon itself is on schedule, having just come back from the editor. The KS, though, has a number of things that need to go into it. We need the finished plan for stretch goals, a video, and the thumbs up from Kickstarter itself. We’re working on those components, and we’ll post a more informed estimate when we have it.
Thankyou. I am looking forward to it, along with all the other releases you have planned.
Of course, getting the White Wolf site to direct you to Onyx Path Publishing, and By Night Studios too, would help get the word out. But I have a hunch that is out of your hands.
We continue to work with CCP to do that very thing.
“But I’m taking the chance that you folks would rather have a later book done really well, than something forced together just in time to hit a release date scheduled as much as a year and a half earlier.”
There are a ton of things I disagree with from this Monday’s(yay!) Monday Meeting, but I’ll just go with the above part.
It’s not that cut and dry. Of course no one wants something “forced together” to hit a scheduled date. But there’s being a bit late, and there’s being late with every single thing OPP has put out(or…in most cases, not put out). I know a number of people that saw the 2014 schedule and wondered simply…”why?” OPP seems to have considerably bad luck. Whether it’s due to illnesses, burglaries, Gen Con, Dragon Con, Comic Con, computer problems, shippers from hell, printers from hell, etc., many people believe that OPP should maybe slow down a bit and tidy up the schedule to ensure the books are getting out on a date more closely resembling the schedule and not a year later.
If this were one or two books, that’s one story. But it’s not. It’s every. single. book. With Kickstarter giving backers even more supplements to look forward to(Cookbooks, Art notes, etc.), that 2014 schedule is doomed, I’d say.
No one is questioning the quality of the books that have been put out, but perhaps the OPP staff is spread a little too thin. Organizing the schedule a bit better would serve to calm the community a bit more in regards to the lateness.
Throwing out a new schedule and saying: ‘well it’s not really meant to be followed date-wise, more just for chronological order and know that they’re coming’ is not going to help when the fanbase has become increasingly annoyed when the 2015 schedule hits and they’re still waiting for 20+ books from 2014.
If I sound annoyed, it’s because I am. I’m supporting you guys, and have been for years. But I have to be honest here, it’s growing a bit tiresome.
Oh, and for the love of all that is holy, please find new shippers/printers.
Oh, and I just saw this posted on the KS page. Makes sense to me.
“I for one do not see why it has to be “late and done well” or “rushed and botched.”
That pretty much sums it up perfectly.
Why can’t it be on time and done well? Ever?
I’ve never said it can’t. What I am saying here and in the decisions made this last year, is that we are going to choose quality over timeliness if that decision needs to be made.
Okay. Thanks for the response, Rich. Let’s hope that 2014 is a bit better in terms of hitting the schedule than 2012/2013, then.
That is the plan. Seriously, I never intended to come off like we’re just fine with the delays, particularly the KS ones, and we’re just artistes telling you all to like or lump it.
(or…in most cases, not put out)
In most cases? I’m afraid I don’t know what you’re referring to. Given everything we’ve announced and everything we’ve released since our first licensed book, the Werewolf Translation Guide in April 2012, the percentage of products which aren’t out (yet) is minuscule.
OPP seems to have considerably bad luck. Whether it’s due to illnesses, burglaries, Gen Con, Dragon Con, Comic Con, computer problems, shippers from hell, printers from hell, etc., many people believe that OPP should maybe slow down a bit and tidy up the schedule to ensure the books are getting out on a date more closely resembling the schedule and not a year later.
Although individuals might choose to go, the company itself did not and is not going to Dragon Con or any of the Comic Cons. Other events — illnesses, breakins, printer issues — are common to everyone in all parts of the industry. The difference is that we strive to be very transparent about it.
But it’s not. It’s every. single. book.
It isn’t.
Throwing out a new schedule and saying: ‘well it’s not really meant to be followed date-wise, more just for chronological order and know that they’re coming’
That sort of disclaimer has literally been at the top of the schedule page since it first went up over a year ago. We wanted to be very clear about that from day one. Rich’s statements here are simply what we’ve been saying since the beginning, but people are taking it like it’s brand new.
“Rich’s statements here are simply what we’ve been saying since the beginning, but people are taking it like it’s brand new.”
No. People are taking it like their KS deluxe books are months and months late and every new update seems like the ” same ol’ same ol’.”
“It isn’t.”
For KS? It sure as hell is.
“In most cases? I’m afraid I don’t know what you’re referring to. Given everything we’ve announced and everything we’ve released since our first licensed book, the Werewolf Translation Guide in April 2012, the percentage of products which aren’t out (yet) is minuscule.”
Again, for KS? It is not minuscule. It’s the majority. Two deluxe KS books have been released out of 7. Two. That’s not minuscule.
Perhaps I should’ve clarified that my problem was with the KS business model.
The Werewolf Translation Guide, Mage Convention books, etc. have released–and are quite good.
But the KS books is where the problem lies. And it’s a huge problem.
KS is for the deluxe editions only. Turns out printing a book with an embossed cover and special page gilding takes longer than sending a file to DriveThru RPG’s PoD department. Who would’ve thought?
Yes. Who would’ve thought? Clearly not the scheduling department, or things wouldn’t be 9+ months late.
amirite?
…
KS is really a different issue than what I was addressing here, although Onyx’s commitment to quality remains the same. The first part of the KS issue was my screwing up the “estimated delivery date” of our first ones with some very foolishly optimistic expectations. Regardless of the “estimated” part not being a set in stone delivery date, and regardless of “this isn’t a pre-order”, I truly did not think it would take that long to get all the books out. I’ve since started pushing that estimate further out (which is why the Exalted decision was a stinger for me, because we were so close to making it happen) and I’ll push it even further with the upcoming KSs if Changing Breeds can’t be brought in on time.
“No one is questioning the quality of the books that have been put out, but perhaps the OPP staff is spread a little too thin.”
I wanted to address this specifically. One thing that we try to show with the Monday Meeting posts, but which may still be a little unclear, is that we have different teams on different projects. Different people also work on books at different phases.
So, for example, as the Demon writing team becomes free from working on the manuscript for the Demon core, the core goes on to an art team. The Demon writing team then goes on to work on the Demon Player’s Guide. Generally, we can’t retask that writing team to speed up a slowed down Werewolf book.
Printing is a similar issue. When a book hits a snag in printing, there’s no one actually from OP who can be tasked with that — Rich has to deal with the printers in their own highly specialized domain.
That’s not to say we don’t reshuffle teams as we need to, but that has its own time costs. When Vampire lost two writers, I redistributed their word count among the existing team and brought in an additional writer. That saved time overall, but still delayed the book.
For the most part, we can’t cannibalize teams from one book to make another go faster, and we can’t do it at all once a book has passed from one stage of production to another. It doesn’t do any good for me to hold up on handing out new assignments for writers because something’s hit a delay in development or editing. And if we want to have a continuing stream of books available, we need to keep each part of the company moving, even when there are delays elsewhere.
Yeah … and that’s why OPP switched to the new business model …
Very similar situation/complaints often seen in the video game world as well. There are bugs waiting to be fixed after a release and new DLC (let’s say some visual skins or… hats) comes out; all of a sudden people complain “why weren’t the bugs fixed first?”
It’s because the art team (2D and 3D) are able to complete these items without taking away from the programming team who have a different skillset to tackle glitches.
One does simply toss an art team at code development.
I know tabletop RPG companies are a small group and tend to get along, but if you want evidence that Onyx Path’s business model, look no further than the Shadowrun 5 errata threads. That book needed at least one more round of editing to catch all the relics, typos and omissions and probably another round to clean up the flow of the text. They used a traditional print run, so the limited and deluxe editions of the book are going to have all those errors in them. It’s incredibly disappointing, especially when you consider how much potential that game has.
I’d prefer if Exalted didn’t end up in the same situation.
Again, there’s no reason why a book can’t be both on time, and well done.
There’s not.
Not a single reason.
A KS can be planned well enough in advance so these things don’t happen, the fanbase doesn’t foam at the mouth, the typos are few and far between, and everyone is happy.
It CAN happen.
I sure as hell know the solution is not to schedule more books on top of books.
You have absolutely no idea how production worth, do you?
Here’s the cliff notes version. When you’re doing something, you can pick two of the following: Cheap, Fast or Well.
Onyx Path has to work cheap, so they get to choose between Fast or Well for option #2.
Tiresias- I totally appreciate the support, and can you also help me keep this blog from becoming an internet slug-match? Your second and third sentences make a very well known Production Truism. Thanks!
Certainly a book can be both and the book in your name is the perfect example: God Machine is both excellent and was on time.
My apologies. This just happens to be a topic that pushes quite a few buttons that I really, really don’t like getting pushed due to some irritating trends I’ve seen on Kickstarter, some of which are relevant to Onyx Path and some of which are not. I’ll make sure it doesn’t happen again.
That is certainly an excellent object lesson. Thanks!
I think you should announce something when you are ready to print, or when all you need is the art.
Those are certainly release strategies that can work. We’ve been going a different way where we get as much info out there as we can and document progress rather than putting out surprise products- although we still have done that like with Scion: Extras.
We’ve been doing more and more open development, which isn’t really compatible with the “big secrets” production model. If I’d kept a lid on Blood and Smoke development, I wouldn’t have gotten a lot of the player insight that’s made the book measurably better.
Yeah, those KS can be a real killer as you have to announced something and all those damn extras. But maybe one KS at a time for now?
We only run one Kickstarter at a time. Kickstarter literally won’t let you run multiples.
It’s the stuff after the Kickstarter that takes a long time. If that’s what you mean — only one project at a time from start to finish — that might mean only one Kickstarter a year, which means we’d miss out on a lot of opportunities for deluxe projects, as well as missing out on opportunities to deliver material that wouldn’t otherwise see the light of day (HH2’s appendices, White Howler Tribebook, W20 cookbook, novels, etc.).
Delays still happen before art, after art, pre-press, at press and in shipping. Since I don’t believe OPP has a warehouse (huge overhead), they can’t wait until there are no more possible delays to announce a release date. Especially not once you throw KS into the mix.
I think part of it, and this is purely just an opinion, since I’m not privy to internal schedules at OPP, is leaning too heavily towards towards the ideal situation timeline for production. Meaning the estimates are based on the assumption that computers don’t break, people don’t have a disaster happen, and things go more-or-less smoothly.
On the other hand, as was pointed out elsewhere, if a fully-padded schedule is presented, then it’s going to have nothing new in the near future to excite fans and get them interested in purchasing stuff.
My own personal view is to get rid of the dates, as hard or as soft as they may be, and publish very generously padded work estimates for each of the remaining steps for each project. People can use it to kind of reverse engineer a date, but it also gives you an idea of “At least”. If a project is at step 4, and it lists 1 month, 1 month and 2 months for the remaining 3 steps of the project then I know that until it changes it’s at least 4 months away.
For what its worth, when we started Onyx, we were jammed up with ideal situation planning because we weren’t in an ideal situation at all. If that makes sense? It has to work perfectly on time to make it happen because we don’t have the time/resources/whatever to make it work otherwise. Each six month period, the timelines have become more and more practical and leave room for disaster, and our team has been able to add more “padding”. To be clear, I am not talking about the KSs here, but regular releases.
What are you going to do regarding future Kickstarters and hitting their scheduled dates?
Is this something that can be answered, or will this comment need moderation as well?
See my post above where I talk about continuing to try and refine how we do KSs, and what about moderation?
Just read it. Thanks.
What we’re doing right now is posting our own internal dates. Internally, it doesn’t really help to work in “x months left.” Instead, it’s most effective for us to set a target, then continue working until the project is done.
In general, we’re showing our work a lot more than we did when we were at WW. One of the reasons that things are getting announced so far in advance of their release is that we’re disclosing the existence and status of projects from the very beginning.
I think it’s a bit of an improvement over pretending to be infallible. That was never a pose I was comfortable with, and never one I think anyone really believed. That means we’re also showing when things don’t work out. If I do a bad draft of a Discipline, you see it. If my book gets delayed, everyone knows. The price of being open is that we show things we used to smooth over behind the scenes.
Uhm, actually, that might have been a little unclear. I don’t mean we don’t estimate how much longer things are going to take. Naturally, we do. What I mean is that our internal project tracking focuses on where a project is at the moment, and what obstacles are facing it currently.
How “set in stone” is the schedule i.e. is there any wiggle room to allow additional books into the schedule, if support and interest prove great enough?
What would convince you guys that a particular book has sufficient support to pay for itself with room for profit?
Thank you for your time.
Conceptually, it can evolve in many ways- change delivery dates (obviously), drop books, add books. In reality, it’d have to be one really compelling pitch to add an entire book to the schedule, particularly a schedule as jam-packed as this one. Not only would you need to convince me that it was worth doing, it’d have to be worth going back up the stream to get the OK to add it to the schedule from CCP.
What if it had the support of the WW forums: http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1691465#post1691465
As well as Justin’s desire to spearhead it, and Matt Dawkins extending a favorable impression to you?
I could jump onto the VtM fb page to see what they think?
I think you may be confusing “add a book to this year’s schedule” and “doing a book at all.” Justin and I have talked about a new Black Hand book for a few months now, but that doesn’t mean we need to jam it into the 2013-2014 schedule. I highly anticipate a Black Hand pitch being suggested for the 2014-2015 schedule when Onyx Path works on that.
“I think you may be confusing “add a book to this year’s schedule” and “doing a book at all.”
-You’re right, my apologies.
“I highly anticipate a Black Hand pitch being suggested for the 2014-2015 schedule when Onyx Path works on that.”
-I’m glad to hear that, Eddy. I know you guys would do a fantastic job on it, if it received the green light 🙂 Here’s to hoping!
Thanks for taking the time to get back to me. I hope you won’t mind my copy-pasting this on the related forum thread to let the fans there know.
Thanks for the updates! I really love reading these “Monday’ update blog notes. Even though things are behind, I at least know I will get some information come Monday on what is and isn’t happening at Onyx Path. I hope you keep them up!
It gives us something to watercooler chitter-chatter about! 🙂 Thanks again!
-NattyS.
Thanks! Glad you’re enjoying them. I sometimes wonder whether the hours it takes to write them each week is worth it for everybody- no really, it takes me hours- I’m not a born writer and I try and write from the heart- so I’m thrilled to hear it.
Personally I’m not very invested in most of OPP’s products these days, since I made the decision not to jump onto the nWoD 2.0 bandwagon. However, looking into the future I do share some of God-Machine Twinkie’s concerns over a crowded schedule that isn’t hitting a schedule released on most projects.
On the other hand I’m very happy OPP exists in the first place, because to my understanding without the company there would be no n/oWoD, Exalted, Scion or Trinity releases to look forward to. Am I right?
Currently I’m excited about 2014/2015 and the Trinity Continuum. Seems like a ways off, but I got a large library of nWoD books to enjoy. So, while I don’t feel like being a very active part of the online community, I do vote with my wallet.
There seems to be a level of concern about hitting the schedule as a schedule- which it really isn’t, but the biggest issues are raised about the KSs not yet delivered. That’s really what GMT, and some other folks, was pointing at.
I’m looking forward to the TC too-
As a WW fan from day one, I have been trying to be understanding with OOP and the schedule conundrum, and still am. But it is quite a struggle. Bottom line is, no matter how understanding I can be, the fact remains I am still waiting for the Deluxe Mummy and W20.
When I read that deluxe editions need more time because of the printing processes, etc., I can`t help to shake my head. Of course they DO, but that should be already factored in when scheduling them. And erring on the “it’s gonna be late” side of things.
Please understand this: my guess is that most people who buy deluxe versions like to have physical books. So, although I could read the PDF, I don’t want to. My decision was to spend hundreds of dollars on a deluxe edition, and while the PoD version has been around for months, I still can’t hold the book I bought last year. Some people can (and do) take this to the extreme and say “hey, I paid way more than these other guys and I’m getting my stuff months later? I’m out of here!” And they may have a point. In my case, for the time being, I am avoiding deluxe versions save for core books, and I’m still not sure if I will actually have a go at most of them other than M20, because the KS model does not work. I hope I am not pledging for M20 while still waiting for W20.
Also, I concur in that the schedule for 2013-2014 is very thrilling to look at… but I can’t believe half of it. I won’t. I will keep supporting you guys, but please DO prove me wrong: there is nothing more disappointing than being excited for a product and then have your expectations turn into apathy for months.
I think that this man speaks with wisdom and if I were you guys at Onyx Path I’d read what he’s saying carefully. The folk who’re feeling disappointed are fans and while they are loaded with enthusiasm that will steadily erode over time if they don’t get what they expect.
If the Kickstarters are going to continue then its not enough for you guys to say that you’re “learning” but that needs to be demonstrated so that people remain confident to invest. You need to cut the “not a pre-order” crap as well. Is it factual? absolutely. Does it do zero to recognise concerns and even belittle those concerns? also absolutely.
You guys have an ambitious schedule here and I hope it goes to plan – I also accept that there will be delays. While no-one expects you to be wearing hairshirts you guys need to get more active in re-building trust (I see very little interaction on the KS comments leaving the questions unanswered and the negative comments to hang). I see a fair bit of that here from Rich and Rose particularly but it needs to go a bit further when luxury items that people have invested a significant amount of money in run into being months and months late.
This comment ended up way more negative than I meant it to be, rest assured I’m still waiting to give you guys my money. But honestly… I’m not convinced OPP’s model currently works.
Hi Rich, thanks for this news, always good to read these on Tuesday morning here in Europe. You even mention The Doctor once or twice. As a consistent backer ofOPP deluxe kickstarters I am not concerned by delays which improve the quality of my book and everyone I know here feels the same – basically, so long as we are kept informed I don’t think you have any problems with customer fatigue.
Thanks again for letting us know this kind of stuff each week and for all the time and effort everyone puts into this labour of love.
Thanks- and yeah, the Doctor (the show) and I…same age. We’re connected.
Since it seems to be a shoot Richt day, we have to remember that OPP is one (one!) guy. That guy is the sole reason we still get to see the worlds we love get done. I personaly would rather have a schedule that slides all over the place than a no schedule at all.
So thanks for keeping our favorite RPGs alive an kicking, and thanks for being open and very informative on what you do and would like to do in the future. And thanks for giving us all the information you can whenever somthing doesn’t go acording to plan (or does for that matter), knowing the reason and what is happening is allways good, and helps us tackle the waiting 🙂
I very much appreciate your bringing these things up, and the support. I know there’s some frustration and respect that, but on the other hand, and looking at the state of WW RPG publishing before Onyx came on the scene, even I’m amazed at just how much we’ve managed to do so far.
The line up looks great. And to touch on a theme that seems to be popular right now, while there seem to be many people who are very invested in the schedule being… well… a schedule, there are also those of us who had been wowed by the latest books and are happy with the pace of publishing, particularly as PDFs get us the text even before tis ready to be printed or PODed. Imposing the old demands of the printing schedule, a system created for bookstore and shipping managers, on a company run by creative freelancers aiming for quality seems like a bad idea for both OP and players. I really don’t want E3 to end up like Shadowrun 5 or, to be honest, early to mid Exalted 2nd. Y’all hitting some release date is hardly a concern or prioity for me and most of my group in comparason to even the possibility of the product being improved upon with more time and work.
Though, more Exalted spoilers might make folks a bit more patient. Or it might do the opposite. I just want more non-WoD spoilers. ^_^ The internet watercooler for Exalted has been kinda loney since the kickstarter ended.
Thanks, you seem to be pretty much on the same wavelength as our philosophy right now!
I think one thing that could really boost customer confidence would be to offer a PoD-Coupon option for the Kickstarters. Even though the Kickstarters are primarily designed to produce a deluxe book, there’s an important secondary purpose: the fans want to fund the future development of our favorite lines. I really want to back Mage20 because I want to get all of the extra books that Phil and his team want to make. The same goes for Demon.
I don’t necessarily want to wait a whole year to get the deluxe book when the print on demand option will be available much more quickly.
A side effect of having a PoD tier would be that backers could decide whether they want speed (pod) or quality (deluxe). I think that would result in fewer upset fans.
Anyhow, that’s my two cents. I’m pretty excited by the new schedule and I am glad the new books were announced!
Yeah – it is a great idea! I was thinking about the same thing.
How things are set up between the various companies who are involved in including PoDs in a KS is a bit more involved than it seems from the outside, but we have and will continue to discuss this option. Thanks!
Considering there’s different teams working on everything, and considering the fact that everyone over at OPP has been *crystal clear* that KS is for embracing/funding deluxe edition print runs and is *100% not a route for early release*?
I don’t have any problems with their model, though I admit that I’m selfish and I wish I could get more stuff from Eddy and Justin dealing with my precious OWoD than they are already producing (I know, I know, they’re doing Anarchs Unbound and Rites of the Blood, but *where* is my V20 Sabbat book? 😉 ).
TL;DR: Transparency has been huge from the OPP people and I’m loving the fact that it’s such a priority. Do I wish I could all of the books *right damn now*? Yes. Do I have the ability to understand they told me from day 1 that isn’t how it works?
Yes.
Thanks for understanding the reality of the publishing model we’re using. Also, a Sabbat book? I hear Justin and Eddy are going to have much to say about that to me at LA by Night.
Just taking a look at the recent books and future ones, the contents and the quality speak for themselves. This is the right approach even if it means the books get delayed. Taking Werewolf as an example: In just 4 books, OPP is going over a lot of everything that’s ever been published and covers pretty much all the topics I felt were never fully covered over dozens of books from the original run as well as some I never even thought about.
They even cover topics the fans have been clamoring for. Lost Breeds? Check. White Howlers? Check. Expanded look at lupus? Check, oh hell yeah, check! Expanded look at the Garou culture? You bet!
And now there’s also going to be a 5th book (Umbra).
Of course it’s only my opinion and respect people who disagree, but, to me all that is just filled to the brim with win. The only downside is having to wait.
In case that was too vague, I meant to imply that waiting is a small price to pay for all of this.
Always appreciate the support, Y.
Sure thing, R.
I like that you guys are putting out a release schedule. I am sorry for the grief you are getting from people over things being a little late. I have seen companies that would have products two YEARS late. I fully understand that you are going to hit delays. I fully understand that release dates are more optimistic hopes then anything else. I wish people would not give you guys a hard time because things get behind for various reasons. Keep the faith, guys.
And, you know..I am still looking forward to Cavaliers of Mars…
Thanks, and Rose and I talked about Cavs at Gen con- we’re all still really excited about it too!
I would prefer a schedule that is a bit more realistic.
If the handling remains that every Deluxe book is realized through a Kickstarter the schedule announces a total of 13 new Kickstarters, 9 for the cWoD, 2 nWoD and 2 Exalted.
That’s not only ambious but given the fact that one company can’t run two Kickstarters at the same time it’s very close to impossible to realize.
It’s also a bit hard to swallow to announce 37 books, 13 of them Kickstarter, while there are still 5 Kickstarters waiting for fulfillment, 3 of them who are late.
Which isn’t late on the Schedule given in the meetins but late on the estimated Delivery Date. Not just a little late but for stuff like the W20 10 month late. Not 10 month since the project ended, but since it was estimated to be delivered.
That there’s no feedback on address changes also doesn’t raise my confidence that even when it starts it will go smooth. :/
Yeah, sure there are companies who do worse, but I don’t think high of those and I don’t like seeing OPP as low as those companies.
For those snark about people complaining.
I wouldn’t insist if I had hunderts of Dollars at an easy disposal. But guess what? I got to work for the money I chose to invest into the project of OPP. I got to pay bills.
If I invest something, even if it’s a Deluxe Edition, I expect that I can be exited to get the thing about the date it was promised, maybe some month after. Not that it’s ten month late and am in an insecure position about the shipping address.
That I don’t got to tell friends – who I motivated to join the pledge – who’d announced demos for the game like 4 month after the actual estimated date, that it got a delayed delivery to “I honestly don’t know when”.
What is the issue with your address changes? I got your change messages, and made them, has there been a problem since then?
Rich/Ian/Rich’DeadGuyWhoIDon’tKnowIfHe’sOnHere’
Signs I am super excited? A number of days after the Wraith announcement, I am still wound up in excitement. You guys have made this guys summer!
I do have a request/question, in light of being able to finish out the Mage line of Technocracy books. Wraith ended with a number of Guildbooks not being written (Monitors, Proctors, Usurers being what I think I remember, without including the lost guilds). It felt (I could also just be hopeful and imagining) like the ones that were published as dual volumes, like the team wanted to do more. Is there any chance or hope of completing the line of guildbooks or possibly doing a Guildbook supplement, which covers all of the guilds?
/desperate for anything wraith
RichD and I only just set up the first ideas for the main book, so we haven’t really pushed exploring the whole roll-out yet. Good idea, and I’m glad to add it to the list of possible supplements.
Thanks for considering it Rich.
I’m clearly too excited lol. Definitely don’t mean to push crazily. In the Rich’s we trust!
Hi Rich,
Is the schedule flexible enough to use something like BackerKit to allow additional book orders (and other add-ons) a month or two past the Kickstarter deadline? I’m concerned with the Kickstarters coming more frequently that I might be short a particular month, and the safety net of being able to back with a smaller pledge and having the option to get a deluxe book after the deadline would be great.
Have you thought about translating books in other languages??? (such as in Spanish) It’s a shame there isn`t any publisher publishing their books in Spain. Maybe putting it as a goal in kickstarters? as with Mind’s Eye Theatre: Vampire The Masquerade will be nice. Waiting for a V20 Sabbat also. For not failed with estimated Delivery Date there is a easy solution, just think in a date and add 5 months and publish that date, people will be happy when they got it before…or only 5 months delayed 😉
Hey Rich,
While I am anxiously waiting for W20 and HH2, I’m not gonna waste time here complaining about the delays, because those of us that are backers, do get updates on where in the process we’re at. Do I wish that I had both in my “hot little hands”, of course I do! However, I do realize that sometimes there are delays.
I do think the idea of offering a coupon for the PoD version for backers of the project (those whom pledge for a physical copy, of course – especially for Core books like W20, the upcoming M20 and next years Wr20) would go a long ways towards healing some ill-will among backers.
Regarding the schedule controversy: I like the schedule because it gives me an idea for what’s planned in the near future, so that I can at least dream of being able to back it…
On another note: I am looking forward towards the Wraith 20th Anniversary Edition that was announced.
Hmm… how long do you think will it take to get the Stryx Chronicles to PoD? I don’t want a exact date and hour, but it would be interesting to know the time approxymately.
I never really got into wraith back in the 90’s before the whole line was cancelled -This would be a good chance to that that back 🙂