Right now I’m deeply involved with Chapter Nine: The Enemy. I understand this is something that will have a lot of you particularly interested, what with Black Spiral Dancers, a number of fomori powers rapidly approaching that of the original Freak Legion itself, Banes and other spirits, other supernaturals, and a treatment of Pentex — with a couple of new subsidiaries that carry on the Balefire-soaked parody of our own real-world horrible corporations, no less. Several points of interest here:
Big Ol’ Essence Pools. Drawing from the Book of the Wyrm, we see Dream Makers running around with Rage 10, Gnosis 10, Willpower 10, and Essence 300. This also indicated the possibility of bringing up the Nexus Crawler to match. Is a Nexus Crawler with 100 Essence far too much of a leap? Is it more of a necessary thing to get the critter up to a proper threat level?
Massive Amounts of Fomori Powers. There’s a bit of a Freak Legion vibe going on in the back of the book. Yes, there will be completely work-safe powers like “Chameleon Coloration” and “Claws and Fangs.” But there will also be powers like “Dentata Orifice,” “Fiery Discharge” and “Fungal Udder.” Powers like the latter are not actually explicitly sexualized or scatological — a “dentata orifice” might just basically be a mouth in the palm of the fomor’s hand or in his belly — but they can be taken as such. If that strikes you as highly problematic, I’d like to hear about that.
Black Spiral Dancers. Yeah… I know you’re all probably kind of interested in how they’ll turn out. Well, go forth, excerpt!
The Black Spiral Dancers are the only werewolf tribe to have wholly turned to the Wyrm. Some show signs of degeneracy from an early age, acting out through displays of violence and madness. Like some Garou, many have survived childhoods troubled by suffering or abuse. The tribe’s inherited madness and psychopathic tendencies inevitably increase after the trauma of a Black Spiral’s First Change. Once they’ve rejoined their brothers and sisters, most react poorly to the abuse they receive from their Kinfolk and others in the tribe. Their new extended family includes werewolves who (for whatever reason) have abandoned their former tribes, accepting this one. Recruits then corrupt their souls through a blasphemous ritual known as the Rite of the Black Spiral: an initiation ceremony that intensifies and fully subjects them to the Wyrm’s corruption. Occulted in darkness, the Black Spiral tribe has remained hidden for millennia, passing on powerful Gifts empowered by the Wyrm and a never-ending hatred for Gaia and other Garou.
Millennia ago, this tribe was known as the White Howlers. These white-furred werewolves were cousins of the Fianna, roaming the lands we now know as Britain and Eastern Europe. In the highlands of Scotland in the first century A.D., they lived among Picts north of Hadrian’s Wall, isolated from the rest of Western civilization. White Howler Kinfolk were known for their unrestrained fury and brutality, as tales of their heathen rituals became the stuff of legend. White Howler cubs proved their worth not only by defeating physical foes, but by going on spiritual journeys into the depths of the underworld. With typical Garou arrogance, they believed they could face the most horrific creatures of the spirit world and return unscathed.
Their greatest arena was a realm known as the Spiral Labyrinth, visited through a perilous journey they referred to as “walking the spiral.” The deeper they descended, the more imperiled their souls became, as they ventured further into the infernal realms of the Wyrm than any other tribe in existence. Spiritual corruption was like a cancer spreading throughout the tribe, as more and more of them abandoned their original tribal totem, the Lion. In the modern age, the tribal totem has long been abandoned, as the White Howlers’ legacy was ultimately corrupted by the Wyrm. Before the fall of the Roman Empire, the last White Howlers were dragged down into the Spiral Labyrinth after a valiant last stand at the infamous Sept of the Mile-Deep Loch.
Today, the tribe’s name comes from the labyrinth that ultimately destroyed the now-extinct White Howler tribe, replacing them with fanatics known as the Black Spiral Dancers. Rituals of “walking the Black Spiral” are still used to initiate cubs and wayward Garou into the tribe. Degenerating into this downward spiral is a soul-scarring journey, as it is still hidden in the depths of the Wyrm realm called Malfeas. Each petitioner must betray the associates of his former life, forsake his former spiritual beliefs, and most importantly, descend into madness.
Black Spirals possess a wide array of mental disorders, ranging from insidious hidden delusions and phobias to overt and disturbing outbursts of mental illness. Even if a Black Spiral cub is separated from its own kind, the werewolf’s downward spiral into insanity is inevitable. This doesn’t mean Dancers are completely dysfunctional, however; Garou seem to think so because the most self-destructive Black Spirals are used as shock troops against Gaian packs and septs. At their best, relatively functional Spirals are cold and calculating psychopaths capable of infiltrating and subverting human society. The most obvious manifestation of the tribe’s psychosis is an enduring hatred of all Garou, an obsession that defies all reason.
Like Garou, Black Spiral Dancers run in packs and gather in numbers. Just as the Garou have caerns, Black Spiral Dancers thrive in Hives, whether they’re toxic hellholes no one would dare approach or subterranean tunnels hidden from vigilant enemies. The tribe has its own camps, rituals, and moots, many of which are dedicated to the three hydra heads of the Triatic Wyrm and its many subservient Urges. Public ordeals of victimization and orgiastic rites are common. Despite this, a Black Spiral pack can choose to remain isolated from the rest of the tribe almost anywhere, as long as they faithfully obey the whispered commands of the Wyrm.
Metis Garou are common in Black Spiral packs. Some are recruited from those who resent their second-class status in the Garou Nation; others are born into a tribe that willingly breeds metis to bolster their numbers. Black Spiral reproductive rights allow absolute freedom. The tribe’s orgiastic practices are perverse and frequent: outbreeding enemies is a biological imperative. The Black Spirals easily outnumber any of the Thirteen Tribes of the Garou Nation. Metis deformities, like other deformities, are proudly displayed.
Appearance: Modern Black Spirals are a mockery of modern werewolves. Most possess minor mutations and other forms of disfigurement that hint at their corruption. This might due to pollution, corruption, or radioactivity near their place of birth. In Crinos form, Black Spirals are frequently afflicted in some way: their skulls may be malformed or their jaws might slaver. A Dancer’s eyes typically burn an unnatural shade of red or green. Their fur is filthy, gnarled, or patchy; the most common shades are dirty black or sickly greenish brown pelts. Garou recruited from other tribes appear as corrupted versions of their former brothers and sisters. Many Spirals are deformed in some way, since nearly half the tribe is metis. A few exceptionally rare and exotic Black Spirals have the pure white fur of their White Howler ancestors.
Kinfolk & Territory: Black Spiral Kinfolk aren’t the most stable individuals. Sanity isn’t their strong suit, and emotional stability is a struggle. Most are used to conditions of financial adversity and questionable hygiene, supporting themselves through marginal jobs and living in squalor. For reasons they never fully understand, they are inexorably drawn to the Wyrm’s corruption. This may result in a lifestyle “improved” by a variety of spiritually harmful products created by Pentex and its many subsidiaries. To keep an eye on these relations, some Black Spirals manage to secure work for them in those same corrupt companies. There’s certainly no guarantee of employment, however. Some Kinfolk stray into what may seem like perfectly ordinary homes and lifestyles; that makes the moment when their dysfunctional tendencies finally manifest far more shocking than they would normally appear.
Black Spiral Dancers have relatively few lupus for a tribe their size; they rely more on breeding metis. Their wolf Kin live miserable lives in captivity, kept in small preserves at best and in the depths of Hives at worst.
Tribal Totem: Most Black Spiral Dancers serve the tribal totem of Whipporwill, a spirit of ill luck and ruin. In addition to their eerie wolf calls, Black Spirals can emulate the bird of the same name.
Initial Willpower: 3
Background Restrictions: Almost any Garou Background is allowed, although they tend to manifest in more sinister ways. However, no Black Spiral can take the Pure Breed Background unless he takes all five dots, representing a throwback to the original White Howler bloodline.
Derangement: The Black Spiral breaks the minds of those who dance it. Each Black Spiral Dancer has at least one overt or covert form of insanity. (One optional way to represent this is by choosing a Derangement from another White Wolf sourcebook.)
Beginning Gifts: Bane Protector, Resist Pain, Resist Toxin, Sense Wyrm, Shroud
Quote: You’ll understand. Once you pass through the gates, your senses will be opened. You’ll smell the reek of the rotting wounds, hear the voices under the skin of the earth. You’ll see the truth about the world when the illusion is torn away. Come and dance with us. You’ll understand.
I love Fomori powers and am overjoyed to hear the book will actually be able to serve as a functional make-a-fomor toolkit. Overjoyed I say.
On the subject of gigantic honkin’ stats for big nasty spirits, speaking as someone with a lot of experience having explored the upper boundaries of the power chart in another fine White Wolf game:
Lowball them. Especially the the famous Nexus Crawler that everyone wants to eventually hang on their trophy wall. Do this because of the C-3P0 Principle.
To wit:
In Empire Strikes Back, Han Solo tries to escape pursuing Imperial troops by diving into a scientifically laughable fantasy asteroid field. C-3P0 at this point blurts out, “The chances of successfully navigating an asteroid field are 3,720 to 1!” Han growls back, “Never tell me the odds,” and the heroic action begins.
If you are putting together THE STAR WARS RPG, and you’re working on the Stuff in Space supplement, and it comes time to write up the rules for navigating an asteroid field? You do not try to jigger it together such that the math produces a one in 3,720 chance of a highly skilled player character navigating the thing successfully. This is not fun. Players do not want a rigid simulation of getting splattered for bucking the odds; they want a challenge, and they want a reasonable chance of beating the challenge and looking like Big Damn Heroes.
The same principle should apply to the Nexus Crawler. It’s talked up as a big nasty pack-eating terror– wouldn’t it be absolutely badass if your pack of Garou were able to squeeze out a win over one, then?
The Nexus Crawler stats need to make that tough, but possible. Maybe in-setting there’s a realistic 5% chance for a pack of five Garou to take one down, but IMO, at the gaming table, that needs to be adjusted upward by about 40% plus assumption that some pack members may die in the process.
I politely disagree: if a “legendary monster” is a “legendary monster”, then over-the-top stats are appropriate: it just means that, in order to defeat it, player characters are gonna have to come up with something clever or even run a whole story to find some kind of applied phlebotinum which is practically necessary to defeat it (e.g., a Rite which enchants a bone so that if you snap it in front of a Nexus Crawler, it starts dissolving its Essence at a rate of 20/turn until it only has… I dunno, 40 left).
I think it’s more of less that it has quantified stats, which goes against its totally random nature.
This might sound a bit DnD, but maybe make the ST roll dice for each stat for the Crawler, and use them?
“Legendary monster” tends to mesh poorly with mathematics, which are fairly uncompromising. You want the mechanics to feel like the setting, but not to the point that they wrap around and shoot your game in the head.
See also: Deadlands using poker hand draws to set the difficulty to cast spells. Flavorful match for the setting? Totally. Mathematically a good idea? Only if you like spells with a 1 in 64 chance of working.
I also politely disagree. I once ran an Orpheus game for several months. I’d been a lot of time building up the reputation of a particularly nasty Specter and when the characters finally saw the tip of his scythe slowly pass through a window, and they realise it was HIM… they turned their tails and ran for their lives scared like never before in the game. They didn’t even try, one of the characters even made a stand in an effort to buy time for his friends, sure he was going to die. And that is a very fond memory for the entire gang.
This is of course only a personal opinion and I mean no disrespect to any who might see it differently but: A Crawler is, to me, a massive undertaking that should be just as memorable. At first it could be a technique to terrorise your players and characters, and, sure, they should be able to take it down, but only when they are insanely over prepared for it and still have their heartbeats up to incredible heights thinking “This is it, this is for Gaïa.”
I’m totally in favor of ramping up the end-tier nasties. If I may be bold, I think a lot of things in the OWOD were conceptually a lot stronger than what their actual stats and powers represent. I’m glad to see they’re being revisited.
I agree, Nexus Crawlers to me are creatures of pure horror. You, as a player, should go ‘oh shit’ when you realise what the creature is.
@Ana Mizuki: It seems you and I are often in agreement. 🙂
Kinda makes we wish you could join my game. You know, if continents weren’t in the way.
After some consideration, I think the wisest approach is probably just to present Essence as a range. Thus, the Nexus Crawler will be presented as having:
Willpower 6, Rage 10, Gnosis 10, Essence 30-100.
Best of both worlds, I figure, and very negligible word count addition.
I dont think you should go this route, Ethan.
The books already state that there is a Golden Rule, so it befalls to the writers to set, well, the setting. If you are writting a dark and gritty world where Nexus Crawler equals everyone dead, reality warped and boiling blood gushing out of wounded clouds, go for it. If your setting is more of a “You Can Do It! Yay!” like third edition, then I suggest you lowball it.
I wouldn’t make him generic. However, one thing I would LOVE for the nexus crawler to have, is a chaos table, or something, that helps the Storyteller to roleplay the Nexus Crawler in battle. For example, it’s stated he can turn your bones into jelly and your face into silver. Or he can just attack the Spiral Dancers, or simply stand there. It’s a LOT of pressure to the storyteller to choose “He can either kill you, players, or do nothing. Mmmm…”. It’s too much responsibility, and it takes away from his randomness.
I would do a table, and explain his powers. Fighting a Nexus Crawler should be a feat of strength, and luck. Worth of mighty songs, nonetheless, but luck should be there!
100% agreed. So much so that I actually made my own such table. I roll a d100 and each number equals a different random effect. Some of them help players, some hurt, some kill, some just have disturbing/weird effects.
And I agree on the Golden Rule bit too. If an ST finds the Nexus Crawlers too powerfull he can tone it down to fit his Chronicle, that is his divine right and he should indeed do so for the good of his troupe and play style, but the printed stats should fully reflect the creature’s described power.
I think being kind of condescending to play styles you don’t like is not a good argument against presenting Essence as something that can be graded on a curve. It’s basically three extra characters per stat block; hardly an onerous burden for the versatility you get out of it. Holden’s already pointed out why high Essence scores don’t actually separate the Real Hardcore Players from the Coddled Moppets — a grind is a grind.
Besides, nobody wants me one-true-waying my way through this book, I can assure you that. It’s for the best that stuff gets included that I’d never use, or that we encourage people to take what they like from Werewolf instead of me telling them what it’s all about.
I apologize. If my words sounded condescending, I did not mean them so. I sincerely meant it in a way that legitimized different play styles and the use of the golden rule. My words were strong, not to ridicule, but to emphasize the power of the Rule and the genuine right any and all storytellers have to use it to benefit his story and troupe. I usually choose my words better than that.
If I may try to rephrase it better: What ends up printed will be used as the reference. From there, all STs will decide if it’s too powerful or not enough, based on their tastes and the mood they plans to use in their tales. As such, I think it important that the system and statistics reflect the threat described to serve as the baseline. Based on what I read of the Nexus Crawlers in the past, I went with the assumption that strong what intended so I supported the option where it was very strong. Adding that the Golden Rule was there for any who may wish to lower the power level. Which is a very valid thing to do. In no way do I mean to imply that it may not be or diminish anyone who may want to do so. The Divine Right bit, was meant to be my funny way of saying it.
As for the topic of ranges themselves, I actually think it’s great. I don’t see why Banes couldn’t be a little different from one another in the area of power level. It allows flexibility and gives character to the bane itself.
In the specific case of the present Nexus Crawlers, I agreed with Pedro in the aspect of tables, randomness and their power to kill. I had not meant to target the ranges or the essence rating, but the damage potencial of the Nexus Crawlers. Considering they can turn your blood to silver, killing a character instantly in my mind, I’m completely in favor of lower essence pools but I err in favoring a wildly varying amount of damage. From very low to very high.
Sorry for the wall of text and for not being clear enough earlier.
I was more responding to the “You Can Do It! Yay!” characterization of lower Essence totals, not anything in your post, Yiodan.
Oh! I see now. Thanks. Cause I sure as hell am enjoying the opportunity to talk directly with you guys, last thing I want is to leave make a bad impression.
I was not being condescendant, sorry if I sounded as if I was. Thing is, lower essence totals make it more killa-able, and goes hand in hand with the whole “there’s still a chance” vibe. The Nexus Crawler is Yuri’s last enemy, in the novel. I am not a fan of the novel at all, but this creature should have some impact. I think there’s space for both interpretations, but the setting should stick to one!
Okay, two questions;
A) Does the derangement rule go with Garou who once were Dancers but went to Erebus?
B) Does the Derangement rule go with dancer blooded cubs adopted to Gaian tribes?
The Derangement is set up as pretty much being an effect of dancing the Spiral, of mental trauma rather than spiritual corruption. Cleansing the corruption isn’t necessarily healing the Derangement, nor is it a congenital disorder (though there’s room for those as well).
Book of the Wyrm 2nd Ed. does state that Maeljin Incarna ‘bless’ the Dancer with insanity, so there is a spiritual factor there. But, if that’s Dancer probaganda, I get it ^^
In any case, if there is a note about Ronin, there should be note on the sanity of Dancer ronin.
What about physical deformities then? Things like those that come with several of the BSD gifts. What happens if a BSD changes sides and becomes Gaian? Does he keep all the new deformities but his pelt reverts to the right color? What of those who were always BSD they have no pelt to revert to”
Personal story time, but this is how I reasoned it.
First off, to get the taint off a BSD, a visit to Erebus is needed. Erebus eats away all the taint from the wolf.
So, anything coming recently, from Gifts or Balefire, would be removed because it’s due taint changing the wolf.
However, I figured any deformities the character is born with would not change, because while taint caused them, it wasn’t directly it. And I doubt Erebus can redo DNA XD
That seems like a very sound take on it. Especially considering the “secret” of erebus.
However, sometimes a BSD switches without being cleansed in Erebus. I remember a Theurge BSD who used to live in Granma who switched near the end of the setting, and I also have one my in my game, he was cleansed by very powerful Wendigo rites.
How do see those?
I’ll be honest, I never liked the idea of fixing dancers anyway. The entire point of dancing the spiral is that it doesn’t just taint you, it also convinces you. It shows you the truth of the wyrm such that you *know* the path you’re pursuing is the right one, and you’re dedicated to it wholeheartedly. It show you, with the clarity of absolute truth, that the universe is doomed and that the only reasonable path is to hasten its demise. The taint is just window dressing, after that, and washing it off doesn’t change anything.
Any attempt to fix a dancer should require a similarly involved revelation of the falsehood of the wyrm’s teachings and the existence of hope for the world, and even a *Gaian* garou would be lucky-beyond-reason to get clarity like that. If you could get it by wallowing in a silver pond, every garou would be hurling themselves into erebus at the first possible opportunity.
Could we please gather all the cultural information, extra totems and seasonal rites from the Mind’s Eye Theatre Book of the Wyrm and put it somewhere in W20? My concerns are otherwise much like Ana’s. I really don’t like attaching derangements to every single Dancer out there. It hinders the effectiveness of the tribe as a whole, even with the more lucid ones. Yes the Dancers suffer for their allegiance, yes they gain mutations and deformities from exposure to balefire, inbred and polluted blood, and the shattered Labyrinth.
Someone needs to remain semi-lucid enough to function effectively. Having derangements would give Gaian Garou a more obvious means of attack.
This all assumes that the Enemy section is even designed/developed for Player Characters. It isn’t stated that the Enemy section is even developed to be balanced to make PCs with. :-/
p. 290 of V20 begins the list of the derangements there. Most of them don’t make playing impossible (if it did, Malkavians would be impossible to play too), but a lot are quite playable. Bipolar disorder, bulimia, fugue, hysteria, megalomania, multiple personalities, obsessive-compulsive, paranoia, and schizophrenia are just the ones that could work for a werewolf, but there are others too that could work as well.
Now, if the book includes “Tribal Flaws” and this is the BSD’s Tribal Flaw, then I think this is fine. BUT, if it’s mechanically a part of all BSD characters, then perhaps making it a “Mandatory requirement of BSD characters to take the 3 point flaw “Derangement” at character creation, or after completing the Rite of the Black Spiral. Players must take the flaw, but they receive the points for it and it does not go against their limit of flaws they can take.” that allows players to at least get the points for it, even if subjected to having to take it. OR, they could take an optional 3pt. Merit of “Sane” that allows a player to not have to take the Derangement.
No room for all that, sorry. We’re already pretty overstuffed, and I can’t really justify cutting anything to give the Black Spiral Dancers more tribal-specific material, particularly if I’m not doing the same for the Thirteen Tribes.
As for the Derangement issue, I am indeed going on the perspective that having a Derangement does not imply being non-functional, much as I did when I worked on the Revised Clanbook: Malkavian.
While we’re on this topic, “Chronicle of the Black Labirynth” was a magnificient book which has helped me fuel games for over 10 years. BUT, it’s aimed at normal humans who want to play summon Cthulhu. I understand the concept that you don’t have space in this book. But, again, in the theory that there may be other books, I only want to stress that STs have very little to work with culturally in the case of the BSDs. It may be worth to think about expanding them… a lot.
Consider the main enemies of other game lines such as the Sabatt in Vampire, or the Technocrates in Mage. Those guys have several entire books about them. I understand that they are playable and It’s great when you want to play them, but it’s also a precious ressource for STs of camarilla and mage games. If only as a base from which to build into other direction so the players don’t know what to expect.
It’s easier with Fomori, because they don’t have any sort of actual culture beyond those of normal being humans OR of cultists (where Chronicles comes in).
I know you don’t have space. I just wanted to point this out in case there ever is an opening to expand on them and that you guys at White Wolf think it’s worth it.
Just a little wording on those who join the BSDs…
“Their new extended family includes werewolves who (for whatever reason) have abandoned their former tribes, accepting this one.”
I don’t think that this sentence really gives the proper essence of just “why” most of the “turned” Garou would be BSD… as I’m lead to believe, few fall for the pamphlets and advertisements in the paper, and most are captured and brainwashed/forced to become Spirals against their will. Now, I could be wrong, or it could be a bit of a tweaking of BSDs in W20, but a sentence more like “Their new extended family includes werewolves who through cohersion, force, or loss in faith of their Gaian way, have abandoned their former tribes, accepting this one.” Yeah, a few more words, but I think it carriers the greater weight necessary. That’s just my thought.
BSD fur:
Very minor issue, but in the past, wasn’t the appearance of a BSD more of a white fur with some sort of geenish-gray, or something, even if not pure bred? I’m just curious if this is just my mis-understanding of the way it was before, or if this is a change to bring the physical appearance you envision for them now.
BSD Splash Page…
Hmmm… same word count as the other splash pages, right? Soooo, any chance we might see a super secret artwork piece for the BSDs? *wiggle eyebrows*
Is Chapter 9 “Enemies” meant to provide legitimate PC creation rules?
i.e., someone wants to play a Formori, or a BSD: Will these be the rules to create and play a character by? Or is it really more intended for the ST to use and they’re cosmeticaly given the same treatment as the Garou, but they aren’t mechanically created to be PCs?
If I remember correctly (not guaranteed), Freak Legion had a claim in it that it wasn’t intended for PC-use, but I know of several games that did (and, boy… by that book, a by-the-book Formori was the most powerful entity in the WoD if built right.) Will the rules for Formori have some sort of limitations to the number of powers/flaws a character can have?
And, finally (for this post)
Will Chapter 9 include information on Fera?
Now, I understand it won’t include 800 pages of compiled Breed Book/PGtCB information, but is this the chapter they will be discussed in?
Chapter Nine’s more about enemies than player options. It’s completely easy to create a BSD character using the rules in Chapters Two, Three and Four without having a specific Character Creation section for them, and this isn’t really the project to devote word count to making fomori a balanced player option. (Seriously, this book is already overhuge immense.)
No Fera in Chapter Nine.
Oh, yeah. I didn’t think the BSD section would repeat the character creation rules, but more like a Tribe Splat out of place, but otherwise the same. 🙂
However, I do understand what you mean with tge need for focusing on priorities and trying to contain what you can of the immensity that is W:tA in the limited space there is.
The Purebreed is actually something that has been bothering me for a while.
Now, I understand the need for it, but what causes it to go up to five, exactly? Does there need to be a clear lineage, or will the PB5 just pop up? And if so, is similar throwback possible for other tribes too? For example, a Get’s kid turn out to be pb5 Black Fury or vice versa.
What I would like to see most of all about the enemies, whether it’s in this chapter or another, is a ‘this is what the average Garou knows about the bad guys and others’ section.
I suppose I’m the only one who really doesn’t like BSDs/fomori as PCs. I don’t think it’s what the game is about and what needs to be emphasized in a one-shot book shouldn’t be all the (what should be) rare variants, like Wyrmy PCs, or Ronin, or packing with vampires, or multi-shifter Fera packs, but about the Garou and their struggle.
Nah, I’m with you on them not being suitable for PCs – especially not the BSDs. This is a tribe for which rape and child sexual abuse are sacraments, for which the Sadism Stick is a holy relic. The Garou do enough sick shit as it is.
True, but there are also equally terrible things that Vampires do, but they’re still included as playable PCs in the game. So, for me, the “They can’t/shouldn’t be played because they do terrible, awful stuff” isn’t a great argument in my mind.
If a ST/Players want to RP out those terrible acts, that’s their own choices, or they can find ways around having to RP those things based on their own sensibilities.
However, even within that terrible world of sickness and insanity, there is some potential for some good roleplaying, some great exploration of some complex, uncomfortable, but sometimes insightful subjects too.
While the BSDs were little more than “The worst thing you can imagine, and then some” antagonists, they evolved in concept to have their own culture, ideals, and reasons behind their actions (but, yes, they’re still crazy sadistic father-rapers of Group W, but they think they have a reason beyond just being crazed to do it.)
Indeed. I like that the BSDs are garou, still.
Their culture and their ways are different from the rest of their kind, but they are not dumb or foolish. They know what buttons to push to pull so many garou to their side. Wether it is a Fianna metis feeling abused or an elder near harano, they know the ways.
Which to me is worse, because in case of the metis, the BSDs sadly do offer a better treatment for the poor thing.
Actually, there is insanely powerful RP possibilities with such characters.
A Fomori is a human, with a thing in its head that makes is do things. They both blend into a single being with a single mind, but the poor thing, evil as it is, will still be really really confused and lost and might not understand at all what’s happening to it. It’s trying to get by, doing what it is now incomprehensible compelled to do, trying not to get noticed and meets up with others like it and then… he learns that he’s not the only monster out there. There are… big, really big, scary bad ass wolves out to get him. And he doesn’t even know why. Sure, he killed his wife by puking acid in her face, but how can that even have anything to do with pissing off something that seems to be a werewolf? And for God’s sake, who is that demented voice he hears sometimes, talking from the edge of his sight and trying to get him to do even more evil deeds in exchange for more power?
As for BSDs, hell, yeah. They think they’re right. They think they’re SAVING THE WORLD. I’m don’t remeber in which book it said this, (might have been the LARP Book of the Wyrm) but their goals is to walk the spiral to get closer to the Wyrm, to free him. By doing that, they would end their holy father’s unjust torment, his ravaging trashings from within the pattern web and finally restore the balance within the triat.
Problem is that, on the way, they always, irrevocably get corrupted to the point where that plan can never work. Every BSD to ever get far enough along the spiral to get to the wyrm and free him, never did. They all chose to rule over Malpheas instead because by then they’re just evil and don’t want to save the world anymore.
But roleplaying such an character evolution strikes me a something extremely deep. Especially the early parts of getting used to doing these things, accepting them as being the right thing to do. Trying to see the Wyrm as a victim that needs help, and then a holy and loving father. Those are huge steps and they promises a very satisfying role playing experience. Of course, you need to be with a group of extremely mature and open minded individuals who can see the difference between the game and reality as well as right and wrong at the end of the game session.
Fomori powers sound like they’ve been handled very well. Leaving powers suggestive but undefined enough to be interpreted in many ways is great. More Fomori powers = better. 🙂
Nexus Crawlers should be scary creatures, even for a pack of Garou. I’d leave them as they are, with proviso that they don’t get stats so high they should effectively be called ‘gods’, should ‘gods’ be statted anywhere. 🙂 I suppose Celestines are the equivalent in this context?
These white-furred werewolves were cousins of the Fianna, roaming the lands we now know as Britain and Eastern Europe.
Was this supposed to be Western Europe?
It all seems good to me. ^_^
For those confused about the pale fur: the core books have always described BSD as having pale or grey-green fur (ever since 1rst ed) but oddly the art, and many of the NPC BSD printed in books have images or descriptions of black or blackish-green fur.
I’m one of the people who locks in on visuals too much and always picture them darker furred anyhow… strange how they’ve rarely been illustrated as they were described. O.o
With spirit power, to be honest I sometimes forget what a good essence amount is after it was changed in revised. I used to find fighting spirits to be very tedious and difficult due to the high essence for even smaller ones (but I think that in the early years of the game I wasn’t really doing spirit combat correctly). I did find that the revised changes made more sense to me from a dice rolling perspective. And to the note about keeping the essence lower so that characters can defeat something epic and legendary… you’re the ST, fudge the rules a bit if you need to for the story, it is a storytelling game after-all. The feel, story and outcome is more important then stats anyhow, so if you felt that your group of garou needed to defeat a nexus crawler as part of a huge story, then when you feel that they’ve suffered enough through the fight to qualify for beating the ‘big bad’ let it be defeated. |If you want it to be a many story endevour of trying to find the correct rite/fetish to destroy it.. pump it up. A good story is ruined if everybody is counting every essence point anyhow, so it’s good to vary your spirit’s power a bit here and there so nobody ever truly knows what you’re up to. We have a saying around here… ‘Story/Character/Concept first, stats second.’ 😉 It just basically means that we care more about the story and characters and what will happen and how it turns out, so whoever is storytelling will often fudge the antagonist’s power (up or down) to meet the right storytelling challenge.
No problem with fomori powers being kept toned down in the text, here. If they’re going to be options for Drones and Gorgons as well, it becomes a tad bit difficult to justify having them as lurid H doujin stuff right out of the gate.
I apologize for the pedantry, but there are two O’s in “Whippoorwill,” no?
There are, and I’ve fixed it in the final product. Good eye.
Perhaps when the KickStarter for the Prestige version of the W20 book is finished, send a Proofing PDF of the un-finalized book out to anyone who pledged high enough for a PDF copy (if you choose, just don’t link the images into this Proofing copy that you are sending out?) Since these people would get the PDF anyways, there’s no harm in sending them this.
Anyways, give it a week and have people send in proofing corrections. Then, after that week, make the corrections and send the files out for Printing/PoD/Download.
I have noticed that V20 and V20 Companion both got some noticeable updates to their files after the initial PDF postings, but the Prestige V20 still has all of the original errors from the first version of the files. PLUS (as far as I know) there was never a “Here’s what was edited/corrected” between different files. So, by allowing the masses to point out the errors before it goes to mass-printing, you can avoid some of that, I’d hope (crowd sourcing?)
Can someone share a link to the W20 Kickstarter? I’ve searched that site and can’t find it.
In my experience of leading W:TA most players have trouble with even the most simple essence 25 spirits at the beginning and if it’s “mixed breed” -sentai; a 50 essence Mukade is almost unbeatable for even mid rank characters.
So when you’re hinxin’ & jinxin’ the stats of various baddies, do remember that not all players play combat machines that the Garou are, but they still do the same things and face similar opponents.
And honestly 300 essence is A LOT of hit-points to chew through, even for a veteran pack.
This, yeah. Especially with all the traits cranked to 10, I worry it will make for a miserable fight where it’s hard to hit the thing in the first place, then when you finally do hit it, it soaks all your damage most of the time. Once you finally manage to hit it AND squeeze in a point or two of damage that doesn’t get soaked… hooray, now you only have to do it a few hundred more times. Even if it weren’t mulching your pack while this is going on, assuming you can somehow stay alive, that is a *BORING* slog of a fight as you roll past the hour and a half mark of sheer repetitive dice rolling.
Stats don’t just make impressive setting statements, they dictate the shape of play through uncompromising math. One has to eventually answer the question “am I statting this thing for players and Storytellers to read and go ‘ooh’ at, or am I statting it to be used in actual play?”
Myself, I preferred how Revised edition handled Essence. 1 and 2 E didn’t give spirits soak pools at all without the Armor Charm, so they had to have massive numbers of Power points… revised let them soak, so it drastically reduced the amount of points involved. I prefer it that way. it doesn’t necessarily weaken the spirits except that they can’t use their powers as often, but the math is easier to keep straight and the system feels more internally consistent to me. I know that even if W20 ditches this to go back to 2E style Power numbers, I’ll just keep right on using the default Revised edition formula of “Rage + Gnosis + Willpower = Essence unless you feel like boosting or lowering it a bit” It worked well, made it easy to scale when making your own spirits, and kept the numbers in a big fight between five garou and seven Banes much easier to keep track of.
I agree 100%. The Revised edition method of calculating Essence is good as it is (and it still allows for customizing spirits contarary to the Willpower + Rage + Gnosis = Essence formula for dramatic reasons) and using 2nd. edition rules would only seriously drag out combat. Besides, the system assumes that PCs have only 7 levels of health, so why give their antagonists 100? Just for show? Even a 26-Essence version of a Nexus Crawler is hard to kill and it can mop the floor with an average pack with a well rolled Warp Reality Charm, so what’s the point? Almost every spirit featured in the Revised corebook has a decent soak pool even without the Armor Charm, so they’re not that vulnerable that they need such excessive Essence pools.
Ok, sorry if my opinion was too vocal, but seriously, I think that if you use the rules (or should I say: two sentences) for creating weaker versions of spirits from the Revised Werewolf Storyteller’s Handbook’s FAQ (p. 22), add a similar tweak for creating stronger versions of spirits and keep the Revised edition handling of Essence it should keep everyone happy.
Plus, Scrag’s Rage should really be dropped from 10 to 6. 🙂
P.S. I forgot to add that eveything else is fine (BSDs description: great. Fomori powers: bring them on. We won’t be bringing that book to work anyway.). Keep up the good work!
This looks really good. I now want to play a pure breed black spiral dancer who’s trying to turn his back on the tribe and return to Gaia
Concerning Pure Breed
The Glasswalkers and Bone Gnawers no longer have the restriction of “Thou shall not have Pure Breed!” rule, but the BSDs apparently don’t have Pure Breed as an option unless it is at 5, and then it’s for “Throwback”. It seems a bit strange to me, at least through my understanding of how Pure Breed works, or has worked considering all of the other Garou acquired through various means and their own pure breedings, and since a Pure Breed 5 Get of Fenris and a Pure Breed 5 Fianna would still produce a Pure Breed 5 Metis, right? Or a PB 5 Get and a PB4 Kin would produce a child of PB too, right?
I guess my question is:
Does saying BSDs Can’t have Pure Breed really make sense? Or will Pure Breed be more clarified and explained in W20?
What happens if a Gaian Garou with Pure Breed 3 joins the BSDs? Do they lose their Pure Breeding? Or could a BSD have Pure Breed, but unless it’s 5 “BSD”, it would be “Get of Fenris”, or what have you?
I do not get it either, quoting from a post above:
Does there need to be a clear lineage, or will the PB5 just pop up? And if so, is similar throwback possible for other tribes too? For example, a Get’s kid turn out to be pb5 Black Fury or vice versa.
I get the concept behind it being five, but mechanically it is not sound at all. PB5 requires a lineage, and a VERY strong one at that. Yet the common trope for throwbacks is that they just pop up with straight 5’s. And similar thing does not seem to happen with other tribes with adopted kids at all.
The text for PB5 is ‘greatest garou legends live within you’, yet I’m sure most garou know White Howlers were the once that fell.
Completely there with you guys. I truly mean no offence to anyone, I’m merely being honest and hope to help make things better.
That said:
PB and breeding (like the odd of breeding true) in general are two of the most complex and confusing concepts in W:A. Several books tackle those and seem to conflict with each other. Add to that the fact that Kin (as per the rules of Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes) have PB too but it’s not the same as Garou PB.
Would there be a possibility of revised, expanded and clarified rules for PB and breeding in W20? Possibly answering Ana and Torakhan’s very interesting questions.
From the Background text: “Pure Breed is a nebulous combination of bloodline and spiritual inheritance. A character with high Pure Breed looks and carries himself like an archetypal member of his tribe — however, if he does not join that tribe, any benefits of Pure Breed are removed by the tribe’s totem. Many werewolves with Pure Breed can trace their ancestry directly, while others resemble distant ancestors who cannot be connected without a degree of genealogical exactitude that is lost to the Garou.”
There isn’t quite a “Black Spiral Dancer” Pure Breed, in a manner of speaking; what spiritual Pure Breed mojo they have is the occasional leftover from the White Howler days, as there’s not much particularly refined about their current breeding practices.
Also, Pure Breed is tribe-specific. The Get and Fianna in your example are not exactly breeding the pinnacle of either tribe: their cub would look half-Get and half-Fianna, unless by rare chance it didn’t look much at all like one parent and took 100% after the other. Similarly, yes, you lose your Pure Breed (at least mechanically) if you join another tribe: it’s evident you don’t speak for your ancestors or represent their ideals if you’re joined up with another bloodline.
Awesome. That actually does help a lot!
Is the Pure Breed noticeable at birth and work just as if it were Kinfolk Pure Breed, at least until the First Change?
Also, as an example: A Male Black Fury Homid with PB5 goes through his First change and is given to the Children of Gaia, where he’s accepted by Unicorn.
At which point would the Pure Breed be lost? At birth? At his First Change when Pegasus goes “Woah! You’re not one of mine!”, or when he completes his Rite of Passage with the Children of Gaia? Or is it somewhere in between?
If this Male Homid Black Fury were to go Ronin, would he retain his Pure Breed?
I know that these are very specific, but this sort of thing has happened in each of my newest W:tA games and while each ST has treated it differently, it would be nice to see a section on “Leaving and Joining another Tribe, and being Ronin” that might explain some of the specific points (mechanically as well as storywise of what happens.)
Maybe this would work well in the Werewolf Companion too if it doesn’t fit into the W20 core book, especially if there isn’t room for it as it stands. 😉
Again, thank you for taking the time to answer my previous question. 🙂
Pure Breed pre-Change lacks the mystical “oomph.” It’s probably best to treat it as a strong family resemblance, and at that point it seems likely that werewolf relatives would say “hm, this kid has some potential” — but it’s only when he joins a tribe that they see whether or not he’s likely to live up to it.
I think it would be lost, or at least fail to grant any mechanical advantage, from the beginning; the Black Fury’s son would clearly have strong Fury appearance, but there would be no point at which people would say “Wow, you’re just like all the Black Fury heroes of old (except they were all female)!” and he’d actually gain die bonuses for it. It would be odd to have werewolves kowtowing to a tribeless adolescent who hasn’t Changed yet, don’t you imagine? Particularly if he clearly has no future with the tribe of his line.
I would also imagine that Ronin don’t get the benefit of Pure Breed. Again, it’s hard to imagine a guy who couldn’t hack it among the Get and turned his back on the Garou Nation managing to have massive social bonuses when dealing with werewolves because of his bloodline. Everything about that scenario says “You are a massive disappointment to your ancestors” to me. It might not fairly reflect on the quality of the person in question — but Pure Breed isn’t really an accurate barometer of actual merit, anyway, no matter what the Silver Fangs say.
Thank you for the bonus excerpt and also for giving us your view of the topic.
Does a Pure Breed have to be linear? Or can a PB4 pop up from parents that don’t have it, or at least vary +/- 1 from his Pure Bred parent for example?
I am in agreement with the meanings behind what you’re talking about… but it still lacks the mechanical definition to clarify. While I believe that an ST can and should be able to make the decision themselves, there are reasons why games across the country/world should have common rules for what does/doesn’t happen, especially considering Pure Breed, which is a pretty potent and important part of the society of the Garou. 🙂
I know some of this to you seems pretty self-explanatory and natural to you, but getting what you think should go without saying into the books so that everyone else understands and has that ruling (or at least a fundamental rule to work with, that STs can work with, or ignore at their whim) is all I’m trying to pry out. 🙂
• So, a child born of Kinfolk/Garou who has a Pure Breed of 3 would be recognized for his pure breeding just as a Kinfolk of Pure Breed of 3 would be, right? It isn’t that they go “You are Garou!”, but they recognize the pure breed just as they would with any other Kinfolk with a Pure Breed.
• A Kinfolk and Garou’s Pure Breed is tied to the Tribal Totem, which gives a supernatural presence/aura to what might be otherwise just a physical familiarity, however if the Tribal Totem removes that supernatural “gift”, then they gain no mechanical benefits in the game.
• At the time of one’s First Change a Garou’s Pure Breed alters to give its full potential, affecting others and impressing upon others his physical association to his ancestors of the past.
• At any time that the Garou becomes disconnected from his Tribal Totem, he loses that supernatural essence of his Pure Breeding, and though he may not appear any different physically, Garou instinctually are not affected by his Pure Breed as the metaphysical essence gifted by their Totem has been removed.
One example of a Pure Breed character who was not acting as his Ancestors would want was Albrecht, who was a washed-out alcoholic who later went on to redeem himself and become King of the Garou Nation. Had Falcon gone and said “you don’t honor your ancestors” and removed his Pure Breeding, he would have been ousted from the Silver Fangs. Right? However, I can see a Black Fury who goes on to disgrace Pegasus, or a Child of Gaia who goes about defiling and hurting Gaia’s creatures might be punished by having their Pure Breed taken away, or a BSD who for whatever reasons tries to turn away from The Wyrm (and if so, I’d love to see that offered as a possibility in the book!)
Pure Breed needn’t be linear; again, see that many Garou can trace their Pure Breed linearly, but not all.
You have to have the Background to reap the benefits. If both your parents have Pure Breed and you don’t, they will probably be kinda disappointed.
I think it would help a lot if you always distinguish between Pure Breed, capitalized, meaning the Background that gives you bonuses, and “pure breeding” or “a strong bloodline.” Before the First Change, you have pure breeding or a strong bloodline. When you Change and are adopted into the tribe of your forebears, you have Pure Breed.
You could potentially set up a scenario in which a character loses Pure Breed as a punishment without being ousted from the tribe, but I’m a little hesitant to endorse it as a common tool; I think tribal totems don’t generally go in for that level of micromanagement. If they did, wouldn’t Falcon have tried to make some example of the terrible Silver Fang leaders that have been fucking things up for the Nation at least once? That would rather undercut the tribe’s narrative…
(Consider, too, the difference between having contacts, which might be represented by a good Streetwise rating, and having Contacts, who are specific guys. Or having resources, and having Resources. The Background represents the full-bore mechanical bonus, but it’s a separate thing from having the potential for the Background.)
Garou’s ability to dish out damage is high compared to a lot of venues. Their burst damage from rage actions and gifts can be staggering.
Spirit combat somehow takes all the air out of the situation. Smaller spirits drop like rocks but the bigger spirits either stand around for several rounds before stopping or wipe the floor with whole packs.
My own personal issue is with healing, armor and essence.
They don’t seem to match up properly with combat ability. If armor and spirit healing could be more streamlined into combat then maybe they wouldn’t need so much essence to act like health levels.
Glad to see Black Spirals and Fomori are getting a large amount of material.
I am quite confused by the White Howlers hailing from Eastern Europe, and perplexed by the Black Spiral Dancers having black fur.
Also, the description of the Black Spiral Labyrinth’s effect on Dancers’ minds seems toned down from the Revised book. Is this an intentional change of a more subtle description?
I dunno but I’ve always envisioned the Spirals to have “a rank system” in their Tribe where the “true howlers aka the direct descendant of the original White howlers” would be on top of the totem pole and the rest (captured, willingly joined etc.) would be treated as honoured guests at best and worthless fodder at the worst but never truly equal. It would also conveniently explain why the bsd have only 0 or 5 in PB.
About other “wyrmies” are we also getting the new stats & revisions for such 2nd edition enemies as “the ancestor”, “Texas tarantula” chubacabra, thunderwyrm and vjuhunka to name just a few of a dozen?
I’m afraid not. Again, space considerations: this book is already a core Werewolf book (which is a lot of words) plus a lot of stuff from a Player’s Guide (which is also a lot of words), and we don’t really have room to add in a lot of stuff from a Book of the Wyrm.
But… but you could use a smaller font.
You know about the size they use on those pocket bibles 😛
You know who’s laying out this book? My long-term art director/graphic designer partner, who is also my wife.
If she murders me with my own hard drive, that might be problematic for the book’s release.
… just go with a narrow font, 6 point, tightly kernned and with no leading. I’m sure we can get the ink coverage to 50% of the page!
Also, I suggest saving to a thumbdrive, or cloud-server so you can’t be choked as easily by it. 😉
I’ve always wondered what Vhujunka were. They’re from Book of the Wyrm?
Yes, that’s where they are. In short, they’re very weird things that live in the ground. They’re technologically advanced enough to have electrified sticks. They’re humanoid-ish creatures made of jelly that can take part of their own jellied flesh and solidify it.
Pure Breed needn’t be linear; again, see that many Garou can trace their Pure Breed linearly, but not all.
I have to say, the non-linearity has never been even considered in fan circles. It’s been usually assumed that you need continuous line.
But if this is not the case, it explains how Heals-the-Past has 2 dots in pure breed, and why BSD throwbacks have 5.
I know you have little word room now, but a hint that pure breed can appear as throwbacks could explain a lot about it.
Does “Many werewolves with Pure Breed can trace their ancestry directly, while others resemble distant ancestors who cannot be connected without a degree of genealogical exactitude that is lost to the Garou.” work for you? It seemed fairly clear to me, but obviously the concept that non-linear throwbacks were never considered is kind of news to me as well.
Well, I think something like “Many werewolves comes from long standing family lines, while others are born with ancestral purity thought lost” would be clearer about the non-linearity.
And yes, generally it has been assumed you have to uphold the breeding to keep it strong. In bigger games, the STs often make you write your character’s heritage down, the more dots you have, the larger list of ancestors you have to write.
Only BSDs were assumed to have throwbacks, and even then they were looked a bit weirdly for having straight 5 dots.
And this is why it’s good we have these comments, got this issue cleared up finally ^^
Okay. I hope I’ll manage to expose my point clearly without being unpleasant. I only want to express a point in favor of Ana’s statement. I do think PB is often simplified as “lineage”.
As a point in favor of Ethan, however, there are some instances in certains books where PB is demonstrated as unlinear. An example I think are the Mokole. It’s not technically Pure Breed, and I may have misunderstood the concept entirely, but the several thousand years after their extinction, a long long lost kin suddenly shifted and the breed was back. Furthermore, some Garou with Mokole blood from several generations ago can have a second First Change as a Mokole. Based on the conversation, I’d equate this to having pure breed, without necerily having Pure Breed (Although you could).
No, you’ve got the Mokole wrong there. They can have a Mokole born after generations of just Kinfolk, but not millions of years of just Kinfolk. After their near-extinction, the Mokole were still around, just fewer of them.
The “Mokole-Garou” guy was confusingly depicted, but didn’t have a second First Change, just a bizarre one-off weird event. He acquired Mnesis through a Rite — he wasn’t even related to the Mokole.
Regarding Garou Pure Breed, I found the current wording comprehensible for explaining throwbacks whom everyone thought had no particular lineage.
This may have been mentioned above and I missed it but when it describes the White Howlers former stomping grounds I’m pretty sure it should say Western Europe not Eastern Europe….
But the only europe east of eastern europe *is* western europe (once you circle the globe) so really, doesn’t that make it the most eastern europe of all?
(No. No you’re right, it doesn’t)
Fixed in the book’s text. Yep, good eye.
I’m really looking forward to the wide variety of fomori powers. I also have to say that i love how the mutations are more generalised, and while they have perversion potentional, it’s up to the storyteller to use them as they see fit. I’ve always felt that the Freak Legion was a bit… puerille. Possessed was a much, much better book.
Spirits with lower Essence pools are a great feature, and one i’ve used in my games, since actually rolling down someone’s 100 health levels is quite a pain… even for a pack of dedicated ass kickers. If they are truly powerful, it should be represented by unique abilities and fluff that terrify the crap out of the stalwart Garou, not a giant healthbar.
On the topic of the BSD’s though…There is a single line about their potentional for infiltration and subversion. As a whole they’re presented more as Wyrm’s little whacko brigade, could we possibly have this more insidious and subversive nature of the BSD’s reinforced a bit more?
As for BSDs, hell, yeah. They think they’re right. They think they’re SAVING THE WORLD. I’m don’t remeber in which book it said this, (might have been the LARP Book of the Wyrm) but their goals is to walk the spiral to get closer to the Wyrm, to free him. By doing that, they would end their holy father’s unjust torment, his ravaging trashings from within the pattern web and finally restore the balance within the triat.
Yeah. And that is why I find BSDs such a great foe for the Nation. It’s easy to dismiss the ramblings of a madman who drools and spits. It’s MUCH harder to dismiss a sensible sounding garou go “Yeah, you are right, it IS fucked up! This is why we are doing it, Gaian, because Father -needs- to be free for this shit to end”. Especially near Apocalypse, more and more garou would find the BSD way harder and harder to resist.
About playing them, in my opinion it can be done. I’ve found logs of old BSD games where the dancers were not just combat beasts, but also very complex characters with -obvious- flaws and derangements. Biggest factor is trearung the issues seriously, while still showing the life on the Dancer side.
They can also be used to show some fucked up aspects of the garou Nation. For example, Fianna metis.
Indeed. Quite so.
I agree, BSD should be enticing for Garou somehow.
What i have always found missing in the game is some gray zone. When you don’t really know who are the bad guy and when players start to ask themself if they are on the right side.
BSD should not be all “black” but more “gray”. If i wanted a black and white world, i woud play a D&D world (no offence intended as i am playing d&d ;D) . So BSD should be dark but with more focus, more direction and following a black Totem with some sensible goal in mind. Otherwise they look like mad suicidal beastes, chaotically destroying everything. The description is fine if it is given by elder Garou to frighten young Garou so they would never think about going to the other side.
So i would really love to see the Black Spiral with a more “playable” feel, and more details about the goal of their dark Totem. What these Totems ask of their followers, what they required, how the BSD are structured, more tips as how to roleplay these guys other than ennemy to shoot at first sight or why a garou would like to turn to the BSD.
The same apply to spirits of the wyrm, what area they focus on, more explicit details as how they intend to release their true Father, spread destruction or how they interract with other Spirits. Because surely they fight one another. Who hate who and why, who can work well together and those sort of unholly alliances.
BSD are cool and should be cool, since going on the dark path ussually give you power via shortcut. Of course these shortcut have a price. Would the garou choose this path at the time of the apocalypse ?
One thing I’ve wondered about… Did you think about doing away with some parts of the spirit combat system? I don’t have that many problems with high Essence because having lots and lots of “HP” is rather necessary when you expect a single foe to last against a group of player characters.
However, what’s problematic for me is the damage difficulty equalling the spirit’s Rage. It’s one thing to know that you’ll have to scale a mountain, but another to see that your steps will be about 3 centimetres at a time – and that’s exactly what happens when your respectable twelve damage dice melt down to two successes due to them being thrown against difficulty 8 or 9.
The last time my game had a “boss fight” against a (materialized) spirit, I took a page from MMORPGs – huge HP numbers are no problem if there’s always something interesting happening in the fight. So while the PCs’ attacks were generally normal, spiced up with pack tactics and gifts, the spirit’s attacks were mostly environmental ones that threatened multiple PCs at once, like bringing down part of the warehouse they were fighting in or bathing half the pack in balefire (which became more and more difficult to evade because the best spots of cover got obliterated as the fight went on). So all in all, everyone had something to do, be it dodging, healing, slashing or whatever else, and everyone felt they were contributing to their victory. If most rounds had gone “5 successes on the attack.”-“It doesn’t dodge, damage still against 9”-“14 dice aaaand… 2 succeses.”-“Yeah. Soaked.”, it wouldn’t have mattered if the spirit only had 10 health levels – the PCs would have felt like they didn’t actually *do* anything even if by some stroke of luck they finally had that one good throw of the dice that did obliterate it.
For what it’s worth, I believe the Nexus Crawler should remain as a threat, but as a rather ‘common’ uncommon threat. Meanwhile, Dream Makers aren’t really on my radar. They’re two different beasts. The commonality and likelihood of facing off against one is important.
Giving a Nexus Crawler ‘tiers’ isn’t too terrible an idea, either. What’s wrong with having a Newborn Aberration? Little blips and blurbs in reality that feed on euclidean reality and grow more powerful. They’re incomprehensible nonsense that manifest as anything from wheels with eyes, to transparent balloons filled with gelatinous furniture covered in frowny faces. If you come upon a Dream Maker, I reason, you’re walking down the corridor to beat a Big Bad. You meat a Nexus Crawler, you’re effectively being attacked by a ghost in Pac-Man. They go where and do what they want, and Gaia help you should it spot you.
I am beyond thrilled that rules for creating Fomori are included. Always loved Possessed: A Player’s Guide and Freak Legion. To me, Were-wolf is an adult game with mature themes. As a thirteen year old boy, I were mature enough to handle Second Edition just fine. Being afraid that somebody has fungal spores coming out of their nipples in a game where you play a monstrous sperg-warrior is a little unnecessary, so I fully support not holding back on the creative powers.
But please, please include a thing on why, canonically, you’d dissuade a storyline bringing the White Howlers back. The whole ‘The patron Totem is gone, the tribe forever extinct’ thing. Not only is it a nice fluff reason not to bring them back, but I really liked the interaction of mythology with culture and regional populations. You can kinda-sorta weed out unpleasant Werewolf: the Apoc players by how willing they are to try and play The Last Howler.