Folks-
I’ve contacted Ron Spencer to illustrate the full page pieces for W20- and if you don’t know Ron, then you need to go back through your WtA collection and look for the most bad-ass, characterful, excellently drawn pieces and enjoy the magic that is the madman Ron Spencer. After some discussion, Ethan, Eddy, Bill and myself want to go with Tribe depictions, so in preparation for that Ethan has prepared a list of short descriptions for scenes he thinks best epitomize each Tribe. I’ll put those descriptions below for your reading pleasure, and after enjoying Ethan’s ideas please let us know if full page pieces based on those descriptions would nail everything you love about the Tribes, or if you would expect your favorite Tribe to be depicted differently. We might not agree, but if the art discussions we had for V20 are any indication, everyone’s different thoughts on this are sure to energize and give us plenty to talk about.
Black Furies: We should use Mari for this piece. She’s fairly recognizable in Homid, Glabro or Crinos, so any of those would work well. A violent piece; Mari’s a fighter. Probably have her taking apart a Black Spiral Dancer, and another one bleeding out on the floor. As a nod to the Furies’ Grecian heritage, it would be great if the setting could be evocative of their art or architecture; it could be in an old Greek ruin, but anywhere that suggests Greek design would be neat.
Bone Gnawers: The setting will really sell this one: someplace run-down and hellish, a Rust Belt abandoned construction site or junkyard or junk-strewn underpass. The kind of urban wasteland that the Bone Gnawers populate. We see one to three Bone Gnawers (artist’s choice), maybe in Hispo, Crinos or Homid, clambering over the junk or abandoned vehicles or whatever, like they’re stealthily creeping up on someone. They’re the stealthy boogeymen of the bad part of town, and they’re about to tear someone apart.
Children of Gaia: A more peaceful shot for this one. I kind of like the idea of a Child of Gaia (in Homid or Lupus form) crouched over a small luminous seedling that’s growing up in a blasted piece of ground. Around it is carnage, though: dead Pentex soldiers or fomori or something, and the blood pools and runs around, with the seedling on kind of a dry, pure island. The Child of Gaia is shown as someone that believes in nurturing, but who has to kill in order to protect.
Fianna: I think we should really see one or two Fianna in full Crinos form, a few bits of Celtic jewelry the clue to their identity, just tearing the living hell out of fomori. (Fomori are a very classic enemy for Fianna.) Impaling a fomor with a giant long spear would be very classic, though of course claws and teeth work well too. Maybe in a more wilderness setting to break up the aspects of civilization from the prior couple of pieces.
Get of Fenris: This is where we want all the bloody macho violence. Crinos form, some bits of Viking-esque trappings. This would probably be a good place to have the “stand on a mound of the bodies of my enemies, my talons and klaive soaked in blood, and howl at the moon.” For a tragic touch, maybe the Get is holding the body of a fallen ally or tribemate (in Homid or Lupus form) – depends on whether Rich wants full-bore triumph or the tragedy of Werewolf.
Glass Walkers: Embrace the tech. A Glass Walker in Glabro, with klaive and pistol; should look like he or she has some money, sort of go for that Mafia well-dressed look with white button-down and slacks. A high-tech setting, like a boardroom with a huge flatscreen and cameras. The Glass Walker is conjuring up a spirit of electricity, a techno-spirit that is ready to go tunneling through the network – but the spirit should look kind of dangerous, more “could kill you” voltage than cute little techno-sprite.
Red Talons: Lupus or Hispo form. Hunting through the woods. That kind of wide-eyed excitement and snarling jaws you see on those photos of wolves fighting, just this side of crazy but clearly healthy animals. One of the trees (or boulders!) nearby has the claw marks of the Red Talons tribal glyph.
Shadow Lords: Margrave Konietzko should be in this piece. Homid form, sword-klaive in hand; half-standing in shadow. He’s giving an order to some other Shadow Lords who are visible only as silhouettes, great werewolves that are about to go out and rend the hell out of their enemies. The piece emphasizes their subtlety and cunning; this is a tribe that will hit you hard when you’re not looking.
Silent Striders: The Strider should be in Crinos form; the Anubis-looking werewolf is just so distinct. Bits of Egyptian jewelry are of course appropriate. This piece should emphasize speed, grace, agility – maybe the Strider is pursuing or leaping at full tilt at a vampire. (Naturally it would take place at night; moon in the sky!)
Silver Fangs: We should see Lord Albrecht here, specifically as he looked before he became King. Homid form, his signature Grand Klaive at hand. Maybe he’s brooding on the steps of a dias that lead up to an empty throne (the one seen in the Werewolf 2nd edition comic?). Not as violent as the other pieces, but certainly full of emotion.
Stargazers: Probably someone in Glabro form, trying to control their Rage through doing martial arts katas or something similar. The werewolf’s face is contorted with anger but they’re pushing it back with discipline. A temple courtyard or Zen garden might make a good background with the kind of circular patterns that imply motion and cycles; stars overhead.
Uktena: An Uktena in mid-ritual. Many spirits are gathering around, though the primary one should be the antlered serpent that is Uktena itself. The Uktena is in Homid or Glabro; maybe our Amerind Uktena from Werewolf Revised? The complicated mysticism of the tribe is on display.
Wendigo: And we’re back to violence. A hulking Wendigo in Crinos form, stalking through a winter landscape (Canadian or Pacific Northwest-looking forest). There’s blood on the snow, and the Wendigo has the severed head of an enemy in its hand: his muzzle is also blood-stained, maybe we even see a carcass behind him with a bite taken out of its torso. Amerind trappings, of course. The violence has just happened, but the Wendigo has yet to calm down and revert to human form.
So tell us what you think and let’s start talking about W20!
–richt
Tell him: “Ron, what do you want to do? We have these ideas for you. What do you think? Which one works better?”.
Otherwise i like: Bone Gnawers, Get of Fenris and Shadow Lords.
Technically, Jack, we’d contract Ron to do all of them: a piece per tribe. So let us know if your favorite tribes would be well-served by what we’ve got or if you have some other ideas for an image: nobody’s getting left out.
(Except the Black Spiral Dancers. They brought it on themselves.)
Yeah, if I wasn’t clear- Ron’s doing all 13 pieces. My question is what sort of art notes do we give him- but yes it certainly is a two-way street: if Ron has a different idea on any of these we’ll work with him. I’ve never wanted the artists to just do what the notes say- collaborating is what makes the job fun. You’ll be able to see that process as we get into really blogging later in 2012. This is just an early post because we need to give Ron these notes so that he has enough time to get them all done with his usual awesomeness.
Ok, then…
I love the Bone Gnawers, Get of Fenris and Shadow Lords concepts.
For the BLACK FURIES I would like to see the Age Roles (Maiden, Mother and Crone) of the tribe: a Homid Maiden, a Glabro Mother and a Crinos Crone. I think it would be quite representative (and a challenge for Ron!).
I hate the CHILDREN OF GAIA idea. To me they are healers. Yes, they kill to protect, but their primary mission is to heal. To heal the world. To heal the Wyrm. To nurture the Earth. Why that seedling is more important than the lives of those Pentex soldiers or fomori? The illustration for the CHILDREN OF GAIA should be a peaceful and hopeful scene.
Go full cyberpunk with the GLASS WALKERS. I understand the mafia/businessperson, but it would be way cooler a werewolf with cyberimplants and firearms.
For the SILVER FANGS “We should see Lord Albrecht here, specifically as he looked before he became King.” . . . so you want an alcoholic bum to represent the noblest Tribe? Are you sure?!
I dont know why, but i think it would be a powerful piece for the STARGAZERS to show a Garou doing zazen with the whole universe as a background.
I like the concept for the UKTENA. But make the Garou a Banetender! (and include a dormant bane in the picture). Thats complicated mysticism!
For the Fianna, Red Talons, Silent Striders and Wendigo i have no particular opinion. I mean, they seem nice and representative. Mmm… maybe a hispo RED TALON? And if you use Evan Heals-the-Past at least use him as a Crinos because a WASP Wendigo is unheard of.
And if you change your opinion about the BLACK SPIRAL DANCERS, We want an extra-sexual Zhyzhak!!!
Thanks. Please let me know what you think!
I am glad Ron Spencer was tapped for artwork. His talent over the years has been a staple. Especially for Werewolf. Antonine Teardrop should be the character for Stargazer. Gere Hunts the Hunters should be for Get of Fenris. Evan Heals the Past should be for Wendigo in Chrinos form. Crookpaw should be used for the Red Talons. King Albrecht should be used for Silver Fangs.The choices for the Black Furies and Shadow Lords is great. I look forward to Werewolf 20th and the illustrations by Mr. Spencer.
Mike
Hey Mike- I was wondering- what is it about those characters that makes you want us to revisit them here? Is it a fondness for them just because they were the ones from back then- or are they specifically cool and right for their Tribes? For example, Evan was created and written specifically to contrast a lot of the expectations folks had- makes for better drama in the writing, I think is the rationale- but for the most Wendigo of Wendigo for these pieces, is he really the most evocative choice. I’m not asking to mess with you- I actually think it’s an important discussion when we’re trying to create a book that celebrates WtA and most importantly the fans who love it. Thanks-
For me, Evan and Albrecht would be just out of nostalgia.
Mari Cabrah and Konietzko, though, are awesome by themselves.
I really would like to see a more typical Wendigo for the Wendigo Artwork. Evan was indeed cool, drama wise, but he isn’t the archtype of the tribe. North-Wind’s Son on the other hand is kind of special due to his father, but that wouldn’t be seen in a picture, though.
I actually would, besides the full page pictures, like to see two to four homids of a given tribe just lurking around in the corners of the Tribe-spreads (except Red Talons, obviously). For the full-page pics are great theme-wise the often picture crinos, Hispo, Lupus. Having a couple of additional homid characters might further explore the tribal themes and show some diversity while still staying true to the ethnicity of their human kin. One could recycle some of the Tribebook character templates, but new art would be cooler. Less tied to the Templates presented in the books but instead focused on presenting different aspects of the tribe.
I’d love to see the Bone Gnawers in a setting similar to the place called “Cartolandia” its referred in Mexico City by Night. It’s basically a dump full with poor people living among junk in houses made out of cardboard, to see the Gnawers, 2 or 3, defending the people from an imminent threat.
For the Stargazer why not have one in Glabro at a mountain top wearing a Buddhist monk robe performing meditation to control its rage with a night full of stars as a background.
Love the ideas for all the tribes and COME ON you cannot leave the Black Spiral Dancers behind !
Hi Eloy- Great idea there for BG setting. BSDs though- nah! nobody likes them! 🙂
Well, you could do a BSD one, in a sense.
Picture some kind of monolyth or ancient-looking rock (I mean, something that seems out of Stonehenge), engraved with the old symbol of the White Howlers but scarred by erosion and vicious clawmarks. The rock also has several shadows projected onto it, of what may be Crinos forms, but with some weird subtle features. And a spiral featuring somewhere, maybe as a pattern on the clawmarks.
Good call Rich… BSD’s should be somewhere in the back. When you turn your back on Gaia you should basically accept you’re not getting as much attention as the other tribes anymore. We all carry the weight of our actions, now don’t we ? 😉
To be fair, the Black Spiral Dancers may be in multiple fullpages, where every other tribe gets only one. There are fewer antagonists more satisfying for the Garou to fight and kill than their twisted mirrors.
If you could top the full page illustrations in Revised (the ones that made into being covers of the tribebooks), you may as well take all my money. Because those ones were wonderful, every single one of them, flawless. I’d suggest, do not astray too much from that style of portraying iconic images.
From this batch, I like the Children of Gaia idea, because it addresses very well the main issue people had with them (that of being ‘pacifists’, which they’re not really).
I’d take care of Glasswalkers. I wouldn’t like the pic to emphasize the techy aspects too much. There should be a touch, but should not give the look of it being an ultrahacker out of a cyberpunk novel, if you know what i mean. Getting the character to look like a more or less common guy (as in, not perched with gadgets) but with something dangerous about him, and the electricity spirit to look really menacing and *wild* would be key, I’d say.
I would pic the Wendigo and the Get of Fenris characters to look straight at the reader as in “you’re next, say your prayers” attitude, also.
Rancor- Yep, those Prescott Tribe pieces were absolutely stunning and some of my favorites- but then I really like how he used a more graphic approach. I’m proofing the Now in Print versions of those TribeBooks right now and just love to re-immerse myself in that art. My hope is to drop a few of them in at the end of chapters like I did with some fulls in V20. Excellent comments too, thanks!
Steve Prescott did awesome B/W pieces, but his color work is so phenomenal too that I think Werewolf is quite likely to blow the hell out of V20, as far as artwork goes… assuming Steve will be doing color work in it as well. He will be, right? Right? *crosses fingers* 🙂
I like the idea of Fianna using weapons in Crinos. One of the pair wielding a Garou bow would fit their British/Celt vibe.
For the Bone Gnawers, there was a great illustration in I think it was Book of the City with a Crinos wearing a suit of armour made from motorbike parts. Something revisiting that theme of making cool toys out of junk would fit the BGs, I reckon.
Get of Fenris: One word- Jarlhammer.
Hi Simon- some cool thoughts here, thanks for adding them in to the discussion-
A bow? No Fianna with any self respect would use a hunting weapon in combat! :p
I may be being a little pedantic, but the celts were not great users of the bow. Javelins, spears, sheilds and swords for the richest. 🙂
looks pretty kewl to be honest…
But I am wondering, will there be fan shots again ? 🙂
Hi Martjin- We’re going to offer up the idea of models to Ron and see if he’d like to use them. Ron pretty much doesn’t use models normally, so we’ll see.
Yeah, one of Ron’s awesome characteristics is that he can work freehand without models — which is probably what makes him so good at Crinos forms. Hard to snap a photo from life of those guys!
Well in V20 there was character drawings on the clan pages and photo’s in as chapter openings… why not combine the two ? Let Ron go wild with his thing and also try to capture the essence of Werewolf in RL showcases. Some of the photos were pretty awesome (I even have a post of the Toreador shot).
With small changes in photoshop or even make up, one can easily portray at least 3 forms in photos.
This is really Rich’s call more than mine, but personally I would like to see W20 look like Werewolf core books of the past — and Werewolf doesn’t have much of a history of art done from explicit photo reference. It would be adding a brand-new look to the book — and I wonder if it wouldn’t make many people say “Why are they trying to make Werewolf look more like Vampire?”
It’s sort of like using W:tA 2nd’s comic-book style example of play for M20. No doubt it would look good: but would it feel like classic Mage?
Not a rhetorical question, mind. I’d like to hear from many folks on this.
No fan shots, please.
But a comic would be great! (even a ‘Legacy Rite’ reprint).
I prefer the design of the 2nd edition.
I know it’s picky, but the “photos” in the V20 book were illustrations created from photographs, but drawn/inked by Tim Bradstreet and then colored. 🙂
What I really enjoy about V20 was the model posters. When you are able to look at those photographs (whether they are drawn/painted/ect.) it brings in a real feel to the pictures. The models are actual people that posed for it and also encompass the tribe well. I really loved seeing the faces of the models when I met them because it brings the ideas more of a reality. I don’t think any of those photographs were fan photos in V20. I am pretty sure Bradstreet had an entire photoshoot for them. But, they looked good in the end. Also, if Mr. Spencer can use both (like it was said before) and use a photo reference from a photoshoot like Bradstreet had for the model and then use his skill for the background or on the model (putting them in a different form) it would look very nice. That’s just my opinion!
@holly:
If I recall, White Wolf actually put out a public call for folks to model for the pictures, so (if that is what happened), then all of the models are V:tM fans. However, Bradstreet works from models/photographs. That’s his style of artwork. I don’t think Spencer works from photographs at all, and doing so wouldn’t be his style, so I don’t think asking him to do it would be appropriate.
However, there are other pieces in the V20 book that used models, like page 222 (A friend’s husband is the model), so perhaps if other artists want to use models who are Werewolf fans, that’s an option as well. In fact, there’s a photographer in Chicago who did some of the photo shoots for V20 and was looking for/did some modeling for the W20 book (whether they’re used or not, I don’t know, but WW may have wanted to jump on that ball early.)
But who knows… They didn’t do the V20 photoshoots until later in the process. Then again, a digitally colored inked piece from a photo probably has a much shorter turn-around than a painted piece… especially several with multiple characters/figures. 🙂
If it is not his style, that is fine. But, what about the other artists of W20? I know big name artists worked on V20 besides Bradstreet. I am a big believer in letting fans and people who know the genre well be able to participate, if applicable. If it doesn’t fit in the book, it doesn’t fit. But, it is definitely an option.
I know the photographer in Chicago you’re speaking of. I found out she also did Bradstreet’s Toreador photograph as well. I am not sure if she finished or submitted her Garou ones. From what I saw, they were very cool looking.
I think that if an artist like Ron Spencer is as talented as he is that he should not have to rely on models. I just remember the fans’ excitement for the models for V20 because it was more real looking. When I saw the Giovanni model, it was different. It was more realistic. This is just my opinion. It is entirely up to what direction they want to bring the book.
But, you’re right. I think that it would have to depend on the artist and the style most definitely.
For the Uktena I would really, really, really like to see a return to them being tied into the Southwest/Northern Mexico culturally. I understand that in Revised they became the catch all “people of color” tribe, but aligning them aesthetically with Hohokam/”Anasazi”/and Mogollon cultures would be pretty awesome.
I think to some extent in the text there’s some merit for stressing “hey, people who are not Europeans can also be in this tribe” for many tribes, but visually? For the fullpager? Yeah, I can see merit to that Southwest thing. We want to make sure the cultural origin for every tribe is vibrant and exciting. There a good Horned Serpent figure in art down there I could point Ron to?
I agree.
I liked how the totems were incorporated in the Tribebook-Covers, but then again those were collage-like and the Full-pages discussed above all are single scenes.
Both approaches have some merit. But since the TB-Covers already had really nice cover artwork, I’d like to see how the scenes above turn out to be. Their descriptions alone are exciting to read.
How are going to depict the only tribe that matters? The Black Spiral Dancers, of course! 🙂
*I* favor “bleeding and holding in their intestines,” but it does look better if they’re putting up a fight.
Seriously, I would like a full-page piece depicting the three lost tribes.
I don’t know if we’ll get a full pager for them, but they will be depicted in the book.
I’ll post more on it later, but I think there is likely a surprising number of individuals who have looked deeper into the BSDs than may have really ever been intended, and they have been given some legitimacy just like the Sabbat was. So, I would still suggest that the inclusion of BSDs not be left to only being shown as fodder or lesser-developed.
… besides, when it comes to chitinous, pustule, grotesque, sickeningly-twisted illustrations, Ron Spencer is amazing at that too, and a full page for the BSD Metis in a forbidden Wyrm hole with his twisted appearance, dripping ooze from his white fur and mutated maw sickeningly craving blood and violence while multiple eyes stare at the chaos around him that festers from the sickly glowing Wyrm pits and dismembered bodies around him might be pretty sweet. Just sayin’. 😉
I’d really like it if the chars were stereotypical of their tribes, so no Even.
I’d also like to see a Fianna in Hispo to show their huge size, but i guess that’s kind of hard when there are no other tribes in the pic to compare to…
It would be nice to see the lost tribes getting the same treatment too 🙂
I really like the suggestions that have come up for the pieces – especially the Children of Gaia thing, as it shows that the members of this tribe are still werewolves and fight, rage and kill. I’m also of the opinion, that the Get of Fenris piece really should include the dead comrade, as it gives this all-out violence aspect of them a slight twist – and I think you have to do that to have the various “tearing enemies apart” images not having the exact same feel. So I have to say, that I think the Fianna thing may be not tribe specific enough (although the fomori could save the day) – I associate this tribe with community and revelry, with stories told by the fire. And I wonder how one could get this things into their full-page depictions. Regarding the scenery of that piece I, personally, would use irish landscapes (open, green rolling hills, stone monoliths, maybe a light forrest in the background) – not wilderness in the sense of beeing dangerous and, well, “wild”, but beeing far away from civilisation.
I also think, that placing the Fury before an ancient Greek scenery could be a little too much (these places usually see fairly much tourism). But what about a greek art and architecture exhibition at a museum (in this case after the museum is closed) or an archaeology site somewhere in Europe.
With the Shadow Lords, I think it would be neat to include a thunderstorm somehow. Maybe the site, where Konietzko meets his tribemates is some old castle (like the one in the revised Shadow Lords tribebook – this picture with this lady on it and this huge gobelin). The castleroom should cleary be old, but has, maybe through the furnishing a somewhat more modern fell to it. There could be a huge window, outsite a rainstorm by night and a lightning bolt striking in the sky, creating enough light to see Konietzkos silhouette. There also should be Crow depictions somewhere in the room, I think.
The Glasswalker piece… I think one should use Elizabeth Genestealer for the piece, but I’m not quite sure. For the scenery: What about not taking a boardroom (which has been used quite often and is always associated with the Glasswalkers), but placing the scene into a cube office (with others around). I think they have very weaverish feel about them, as they are small, plain and efficient (there could be some modern day decoration, too, like a half-full coffee-to-go, a WLAN router at the wall, etc). This emphasizes (as does the not-so-friendly weaver spirit) how dangerous cities are for the Garou (and Gaia), but the Glasswalker somehow fit in.
These are only suggestions, anyway. Can’t wait to see, what Ron creates from these guidelines. 🙂
Yeah, thunderstorms and Shadow Lords! Great catch!
Excellent feedback, Jiba. Thanks!
I overthought the art concepts again and have the following things to add that would make my view on the tribes even clearer or better:
Black Furies:
Make it something like an Olive Orchard or something. Greek ruines are really stereotypical and Greece has a lot more to offer then just old ruins and has beautiful nature and other things to offer. (check an island like Lesbos and its nature).
Children of Gaia: I miss the mediator role in this whole picture. The one who keeps the tribes from going to far and tries to bind and work in union.
Silent striders: perhaps they could be in the egyptian desert fighting ‘something’ that comes from the wyrm infested city and tries to invade the nightly dessert that the strider is protecting from that city ? If you are going for egyptian theme I would choose the dessert.
I don’t know. Children of Gaia have also been described as religious zealots. Meidation is a Philodox-thing, too. So, I can easily see a child of gaia get frustrated with the others not working together, because they ways don’t fit and being that frustrated doesn’t help the situation either.
I really liked the description of the scene as it is, and I’m looking forward to see how Ron Spencer will picture it and how far of my own imagination of the scene is.
As for the Furies I agree, that besids possibly ruins of classical greek architecture, typical greek landscape as well as olive gardens would make a rich background. As a tribe tied to the wyld, there should be some nature in the background….
For the Children of Gaia I would rather skip the seedling and show a beautiful, earthily-sexy, hippie-looking but very built woman in Homid, lots of tribal touches in her clothing, comforting and protecting an innocent victim – I’d prefer an adult or teenager but a child would be fitting. Nobody cares about trees in America today; show that Gaia is love for the PEOPLE of the world, that harmony can restored by showing everyone that the world is not their enemy.
Shadow Lord should also be in Homid I think, as they are the one tribe which seriously believes that it’s appropriate to use guile to achieve your goals. They’re sort of the third Urrah tribe, I think, as they believe in fighting the enemy on his own battlefield, without letting him know you’re a soldier, just being there ready to stab him in the back and vanish into the darkness, confident in your own rightness and not caring what anyone else thinks. Make him a ruthless-looking plutocrat with black hair and a thin, droopy mustache, but powerful and vibrant-looking instead of repulsive and diseased like a Pentex exec. Show a stormcrow in the window and/or maybe a pair of eyes in the clouds lowering outside.
The Wendigo needs to be perched on the side of a snowy mountain, crouched low and staring out across the plains with the wind in his hair. That is all.
Red Talons – Emphasize very clear that this is not “a wolf”. Show a Hispo form with eyes blazing like fire and viscous trails of sizzling blood stretching gooely between the fangs. Gore everywhere, intestines strung on evergreen trees in mockery of Christmas, maybe in the background show another Hispo biting a TRUCK in half (there’s a Gift for that). That sapling we took out of Children of Gaia might show up here, as the Talons do have their nurturers and protectors; one might have reluctantly assumed Crinos form in order to plant a sapling to replace a visibly felled tree, but a Lupus nearby looks on as if disapproving. Remember, this tribe is mad from loss and pain, and many of them honestly believe there’s nothing left to save and they should try to drag humanity into extinction with them; the ones who are trying to be constructive get looked askance at. The tribe is dying because they’ve turned their back on Gaia to embrace revenge in her name; they have no faith and thus their vitality is gone, so now all that remains is bloodthirsty rage. (But blood also fertilizes the soil, which is what the sapling-planter is getting at; there’s hope for renewal if the Talons have the energy to try.)
Fianna should be the most diverse-looking of the bunch; no two of them should look alike. There should be more different colors in this picture than anywhere else – a green-dyed Erin Go Braugh and a Scot in blue woad contrast with a ginger, an elfin-looking Theurge girl in pastels casually whistling up a storm to sweep enemies away, and maybe a bard or a druid or something dressed in pure white with golden implements. Emphasize the connection to changelings and storytelling, not the hard-drinking-bar-fighting aspect (though a few subtle hints in that direction, like a whiskey flask on the green monster’s hip – the bastard is so crazy he Dedicated his booze, but he’s still fighting the good fight). Make them seem rich and vibrant, but a little out-of-this-world; Gaia is an ideal to them, not the grimy reality that most of the “warrior” tribes embrace.
I definitely don’t think Silver Fangs should get the “nice” shot here; they’re insane from inbreeding, remember? Even if Albrecht is Mr. Perfect, he needs to have a court of obviously damaged and hypocritical individuals bickering with each other about how to stop him from bringing positive change to the mess they’ve come to value. Again here we should be inspired a bit by Changeling – that is, Changeling the LOST. The Fangs are superficially beautiful, but so out-of-touch with reality as to be vastly destructive – sound familiar? And yet, at least one of them should still seem pristine, clearly a Pure Breed 5 and alright by himself, but married to a social structure forcing him to tolerate the eccentricities of his kin. Albrecht is walking into this mess with a plan to do things better, but it’ll be a harder fight to win over his own tribe than to destroy the Wyrm.
The other tribes sound good as-is.
The Margrave commanding minions in his ancient castle would be one way to go, but it might stand out more in a modern corporate boardroom, in a three-piece suit with blood on his hands…
I think that the Glass walkers rather than go the Mafia Guy in Suit stick you could re-hash the Glasswalker Raver/Hardhouse/night cluber chick from the Revised book.
I’m assuming that these pieces are to be sort of like Chapter dividers and the likes, as the “Clan” pieces by Bradstreet were in V20, so I’m keeping that in mind too–you will have other pieces done for the actual Tribes write-ups separately, correct?
METAPLOT? – Perhaps more than Vampire, Werewolf had some pretty notable modern characters in its writing. Of course, Albrecht and Mari were created from Timbrook’s “Flipbook of Death” and made to work together in the comic (the poor bastards), but if we’re really trying to remove the metaplot from the book, is including the “current players” in the full-page pieces appropriate? I mean, heck, it’s great to see the characters we’ve come to expect, but we’ve already got assumptions and knowledge of these main high-ranking characters, some of whom don’t necessarily fit the stereotypes. And, really, these splash pages are about stereotypes–that’s their purpose. Special Snowflakes are for PCs. 😉
PACKS – I’m also kind of liking the idea of including several characters in the picture. Werewolf is about packs (a point all-too-often missed). Too often the images are about individuals, and I think that removing the warrior from his pack is like amputating the head from the body. Not only does including packs in tribal pieces it re-enforce the concept of “My pack and I are one” and thus, show that even the most glorious of warriors work with their pack brothers, but it also offers some diversity within the Tribe’s make-up in the piece, and how Tribes handle their packs. Of course, one main character can be up front getting the glory (so to speak), but a few in the background fighting, working, playing Wii, whatever, could show other aspects and the likes. A lone Wendigo howling on a snow-swept mountain cliff might be pretty awesome in its solitude, but his breathren howling beside him, their combined blood soaking into the icy snow might give a bigger sense of Tribe and Pack, which are just as strong, if not stronger thematically to Werewolf, as the individual.
CONNECTING THE PIECES? – Something else to consider?: Is it possible to somehow combine these pieces, either thematically (besides being Werewolf pieces) in some way? A string, or common “story” among them? Perhaps these were all on the same night–the moon is in the same phase on all of them with the same celestial markings, or there is the same mark in each piece somewhere, or there is a chonology to the pieces? (Perhaps each one takes us through the complete moon phases, from waning-full, to waxing-full? Or perhaps each month and make a calendar out of it? 😉 )
NON-AMERICAN-CENTRIC?
An effort was put into V20 to make it more accessable to the world-wide fanbase in several ways (not the least was the inclusion of metrics.)
Werewolf is about a world-wide battle against the Wyrm, with Garou from all over the globe. When we think of the stereotypes from other countries/nations/cultures, we are often viewing them from an American perspective. And while Werewolf is likely written FROM that perspective, actively getting specific input from players from those cultures the Tribes are based on might give greater insight into what might make them more “authentic”. Perhaps there’s some Greecian players who have some great ideas for a Fury setting, or friends from Africa who could point to some better Strider concepts, etc. It’s just a thought, and perhaps already done. All I can give is my Western Michigan perspective. 😉
BLACK FURIES – I gotta admit, the “standing in front of a Greek temple” seems a bit too cheesy/weird. They are warriors for Gaia first and foremost, but perhaps their protection of women and children could be there somehow too? I think that a Fury protecting (or enraged because she couldn’t protect them) from some Wyrm beast on a bus, or destroying some human-trafficking/sex-slave emporium in Eastern Europe, India, South-Eastern Asia, or even here in America somewhere, might be a setting for the picture? I mean, it’s not all they do, but we’re also talking about stereotypes here, right? 😉
GLASSWALKERS – Corporate Wolves are SOO 1980s, man. *grins* It’s the age of the Geek. Now, mind you, a Glasswalker’s gotta have style. I’ll admit that. But while the boardrooms have their places of public power, it’s behind the cyber-curtain that the REAL magic happens. And the stylishness of a guy who loves his tech isn’t likely to be a 3-piece business suit. Random Interrupts are the new power players. The power is in the keystrokes, and less in the pen strokes. You want your enemies taken out? You don’t send your lawyers out and start putting pressure on the corporations. This is the 2010s, man. You go in there and you take them out at their weakest point, which is a Glasswalker’s strongest advantage. You cut them down at their network, you re-route their accounts, you set them up and you take away their mundane strongholds and then you send your pack out to finish them off (In my opinion.) Yes, a wolf in a business suit is a sign of power and prestige in the business world, but a guy with a laptop, some piercings and tattoos, in some stylish pants and layered shirt is probably more likely to be a Glasswalker these days. 🙂
Give me a room with walls covered in flat-screen monitors. I want wires hanging down behind them and on swivels. I want keyboards and towers and laptops on tables. Give me a Rage Against the Machine Battle of Los Angeles poster framed, a screen-capture of WoD MMORPG on one screen, a well-manicured bonzi tree and mini-zen garden. Among shots of the Bawn, I want to see security feeds of Wyrm beasts coming up through the floors of the building, and Garou in the stairwells and monitoring news reports. Have this techno-theurge conjuring up his electrical spirit from the computers around him. This is his war-room. He’s not the business-suit type. He might be a polo-shirt and slacks type, or even wearing a stylish button-down with tie, but his tattoos on his neck look like they’re crawling out and his piercings are straining because as he’s shifting to Glarbro, they were never quite dedicated, and he’s commanding this defense to protect the Caern on level 42.
… at least, that’s my opinion of the Glasswalkers. 🙂
STARGAZERS – Currently (at least in Revised) they had left the Western Concordiate and went to the Beast Courts. Could this be a place where, even if in the background, we could see some sort of reference to the other Fera working with them in some way? But a Stargazer’s “pack” may be unlike others, and if we show him/her with theirs, there might be a fox/tiger/etc. among wolves. 😉
BLACK SPIRAL DANCERS – They out-number the Gaians. They have a society, a Litany, and a purpose all their own. They are orchestrated and manipulated, and they believe they are the only ones fulfilling their duties, and that the end is just the beginning. In the beginning, BSDs were the Bogeymen of Werewolf–they were crazed NPCs who came in swinging as the dark mirror versions of the PCs and they were slaughtered left and right. But other W:tA books gave them greater depth, meaning and purpose. There is a reason behind them, there is almost something to admire about them and their dedication to their cause and belief. Who really has it wrong? Just like the Sabbat, they were transformed into more than just “monsters”, but “monsters for a reason”. There are a LOT of players out there who play BSDs, or can at least give them as much legitimacy as, say, the Red Talons, or the Glasswalkers.
Even if the W20 book doesn’t give complete PC rules for playing a BSD, as a still-living, fully functioning tribe, you gotta admit that they fill most of the requirements to give them a full Tribal image. And, face it… a Ron Spencer piece for a BSD who is twisted, grotesque, illuminated by Wyrm and surrounded by gore is going to be pretty awesome. 😀
May I also suggest that you look more heavily into offering these (and other) pieces as posters PoD as well? There are some pieces from V20 (and other WoD books) that I think a lot of folks would buy, even at $20. There are some services online that can handle this process (and allow folks to buy them at various sizes even.) It isn’t necessarily any cost to you, and you get money out of it. 😀
I agree with the pack idea. But, as said, “lone wolves” might also be stylish. I think Bone Gnawers, Fianna, Black Furies and Red Talons should clearly work as a pack, while the Silent Striders, Stargazers and Wendigo pieces should emphasize that werewolves could find alone, but there might be something missing.
I think the idea to ask players from different countries to contribute and give feedback about the tribes regarding international or cultural issues, is awesome. One could also overthink the exact number of tribes in different countries (a fan-based project like: create a Caern or pack, that would be typical for your homecountry would be just great). I am from Germany and I would like to work on the germanic-teutonic side of the Get of Fenris.
@Signature Characters
I agree partly. Some of the signature characters are not very stereotypical of their tribe. Still, some of them might make, or at least fit into, a groups if stereotypical characters. But not all.
As for the Silverfangs the scene from the tribe novels, with Tavarich verifying the crowns might be a nice picture. But a battle scene with a lot of enemies in the Darkness and a pack of Silverfang leaping into battle, surrounded by their signature Lambent Flame gift, while other garou hesitate to join the battle would make a nice scene, too. Then again, that wouldn’t be so much about the burden or ruling.
The Margrave scene is pretty for the Shadowlords in any case. Whether Mari or another Fury is in the Furies picture, I wouldn’t mind. But in any case, I would like to see more than one character in most pictures, to add diversity.
@Common theme
Rage across the Heavens had several months tied to the tribes, iirc. But the idea of having them under the same night-sky is great. I mean if the glaswalker picture was not a board room, but a skyscraper roof-terasse, with a Wise Guy instructing a hacker type and a blue collar type pack mate, that would be nice.
And then each picture would be an outdoor scene.
I’d really like that.
@Black Furies
I’d like that destroying of a slave-ring as an alternative theme. Would also be good for having a pack instead of a single garou. Asia or even India are (partly) Hengeyokai Territory though, so I’s stick with east Europe or even Greece. I guess there is that kind of crime in Athens, too. And the Streetsigns are with greek letters.
@Stargazer
I wouldn’t necessarily include other Fera in their picture and would count them as a picture, where only one character is okay, instead of a pack. However, the scene could be converted into a student/teacher dynamic to have two characters in it. I guess, that this would be very common for Stargazers, since their numbers are small and a given stargazer cub would probably be the only student to a stargazer of rank, who in turn possibly is the only one of this tribe in a wider area.
This is how I see Glasswalkers.
To me, the Giovanni are the power players in the board room. Glasswalkers are the wolves that use any tools (or tech) to their advantage in the war of rage. Computers and Guns are their main tools.
You may want to read the next post where they show the updated descriptions.
(This thread should probably be locked, or edited at the top with an update so that folks know that suggesting details to show Ron what to draw have already been changed, if not already sent off.)
I like all of them as they are and I’m sure that Mr. Spencer will once again create stunning pieces. However, there are three small suggestions I would like to make:
Glass Walkers: how about showing a member of this tribe hunting for someone (or something) in the city? That would reinforce the “urban predator” side of Glass Walkers a little bit more. Furthermore, their fascination with tech could be underlined by the fact, that in order to keep track of the prey the Glass Walker is using some kind of tech-fetish (for example: an iPhone with a spirit-infused augmented reality app that shows him/her the silhouette of person/thing he or she is chasing on the wall he or she is currently facing). This would also show the paradox of Glass Walkers: even though they hunt using highly unconventional means they still HUNT. Plus, it would be nice if you could also tone down the “rich Glass Walker” stereotype a bit. I know Bone Gnawers are defined by their poverty, but that doesn’t mean every Glass Walker is a millionnaire.
Silent Striders: I think using Jiba’s idea about the museum as a background would work wonders here. Imagine a Silent Strider in Crinos form tearing to pieces a vampire (possibly a Follower of Set who had an agenda regarding the museum’s Egyptian display) while the artifacts from the lost land of his or her ancestors bear witness to the carnage that is taking place in the normally quiet corridors of the museum at night! All those elements would really complement each other while being relevant to the (tragic) history of that particular werewolf’s tribe.
Wendigo: Just one request: don’t use Evan an archetype for the Wendigo piece because he is a kind of “the-exception-to-the-rule” character (i.e. the only white Wendigo). Other than that, it is fine (with a bit of Rancor’s suggestion regarding the “you’re next” look it would be even better).
Here you have it, my two cents. Can’t wait to see the pieces, but I’m sure it’ll be worth the wait!
The Fianna connection to the fey could be shown simply by having a fairy ring nearby.
Fianna – Something about the piece should suggest their tenuous link to the fae, the growing rift that concluded with Son of Moonlight saying “Let them alone and concentrate on Gaia instead.”
Shadow Lords – Have Konietzko along with representatives of the Mongol and Hakken branches, if at all possible.
Black Spiral Dancers and splat splash pages – Don’t give them one. There’s nothing “deep” to get about them. They’re unhinged and love to hurt and victimize everything in arm’s reach, including each other. That’s the beginning and end of it. When they say that they understand the universe better than the Gaian Garou and launch into a tirade about the Wyrm’s entrapment, they might as well be asking “Do you know how I got these scars?”, because the cosmic situation doesn’t matter to them. They just get off on cruelty.
I’d like to see a broad range of Shadowlord arch-types to be instructed by the Margrave, but I think Hakken shouldn’t be among them. Revised made them a tribe on their own in most write-ups and that is fair, even if they are Thunder’s children, too. Hengeyokai is part of Kindred of the East and that is a setting in it’s own right and that should be honoured, too.
I really would love an extended Appendix on the wolf-changers of Africa and Asia, but they are not part of the Garou Nation and shouldn’t be mixed into the main part of the book.
Hengeyokai is not a part of KotE; I believe you were looking for “Year of the Lotus line”. You certainly don’t need KotE to play Hengeyokai…
Besides, Garou is still Garou. You can’t avoid talking about the oddity of the Bunyip by isolating it in a different book.
But, the Buyip too would be something that belongs into an Appendix, just like the Croatans or White Howlers, if one would grant them any space for the sake of non-modern day games, which isn’t really Apocalypse though (but I don’t think a Wild West 20 will happen).
Then, the Ajaba were iirc revamped as their own Changing Breed and maybe something similar should be done with Bunyip. They were isolationists and the garou were tricked into killing them, besides the fact, that they were something like distant cousins.
Anyway, the Hakken are presented as a tribe of there own in most newer publications and they are part of their own setting, regardless if it is names KotE, Hengeyokai or Year of Lotus. Therefore they shouldn’t be incorporated into the Shadowlord pic, just like afro-american Get shouldn’t be, or Male Metis Furies or Asian House of Red Crest Silverfang (who are absent in Hengeyokai for some reason). They just are not (arch-)typical for the tribe.
Liking the suggestions on the tribes, my only suggestion was to have the Bone Gnawer pic based in New York, due to the importance of the Sept of the Green and its connection to the Gnawers. Having either Larissa or Fengy, perhaps both in the pic.
I do think that although the BSD’s will likely be present in the other Tribes tribal pictures they do, as the single largest Garou Tribe, deserve a full page for themselves as well as sat the least same amount of word-count as the other Tribes for their Tribal splat.
Other than that I’m rather excited that Ron Spencer get’s to do these full pages pictures for the W20 which is a practical guarantee that W20 will look hell of a lot better than V20 did, especially if you allow Ron to do his thing and do not try to force him to use photo shopped model pictures as his basis.
Sorry you didn’t like how V20 turned out. Tastes vary and are subjective, so you’ll find as you read these blogs that I’m not going to get uptight defending the choices made or try to convince anyone that their tastes are wrong. But I will comment on your final sentence: it’s not my practice to interfere in an artist’s process of creation and there’s no way anybody would force Ron to do anything he wasn’t into trying. Like the artists on V20 and other cWoD projects, we want Ron involved and working with the style he likes best.
No, don’t get me wrong I liked V20 but the thing is that the art there apart for a few extremely beautiful full page pictures featuring ancient past pales before Ron’s work. And since W20 will feature Ron so largely as is implied here I know it will look a heel of a lot better than V20 did.
Simple as that. I love my V20 thank you very much and I’m eagerly awaiting the rest of the 20th Anniversary editions so that I can throw my money to you guys.
There’s an awful lot of great stuff there. I’d have to agree with an earlier poster about the need for something of the flaws in the Silver Fangs needing to come through. I always felt that the inbreeding was more interesting than the nobility in some respects. It’s very tempting to bring in Albrecht but if you’re not getting Evan as well then its not obligatory surely? I felt like the V20 art was a little hampered in its summation of the clans by the need to represent signature characters. A possibility might be a face to face shouting match between Albrecht and his grandaddy, but that might be a bit too much for splat art. I like the Get of Fenris idea in general but I think the Get should have something about them as well that is small town America and that they represent tradition and conservatism in some ways. I really like the philadox archetype from the first edition tribe book that is based around that. In some respects I think Clint Eastwood in Grand Tornio would make a great Get of Fenris.
Like I said I think there are great ideas here and I’m focusing on the negative, but I would be very careful to let the Tribes with clear geographical origins to be hints rather than dominant themes. I like the idea for the Black Furies but worry the Get or the Strider might go too far into Viking/ Egyptian.
So excited!
I like the original concepts, but the focus on ultraviolence is a bit disturbing and smacks more of Forsaken than Apocalypse, to me. Apocalypse, for me, was always more about the richly-defined culture and spiritual traditions of the Garou.
I don’t have any specific suggestions for the tribes at the moment, though I’m sure I could come up with some given a bit of time. In general though, I would like to see the culture of the tribes come through as more than just a background or some trinkets and jewelry that take second place to blood and gore. There’s so much material to draw from, it seems a shame not to use it.
I think it might be nice to have the Fianna doing more of a Galliard/ reveling thing certainly. Although violence, and particularly burst of rage inspired violence, is inherent to the nature of the Garou.
Maybe a Galliard mourning a fallen fellow Fianna, as she dresses up for warrevenge, the fae carrying the fallen’s spirit away?
Fianna:
A warrior in crinos form stands on rocky ground growling at his foes, his arms spread wide. In his left hand he holds a spear, pinning a Dancer to the ground. In his right he holds high a decorated axe. Around his neck is a golden torc, and he wears knotwork armbands. From his belt hangs an enemies head.
On his right is a giant hispo, head thrown back singing to a Gibbous Luna, and on the warriors left is a packmate in homid form, playing a carnyx.
In the background a fairy ring surrounds an old standing stone, with faded knotwork on its face.
That’s how i see them anyway 🙂
Wow- some great comments. Many of you noted thoughts about the Fianna- is that because you play them, or just have ideas about them?- and some BSD interest. Going to talk with Ethan this week and see what sort of revisions to the descriptions he wants to do. We’ll keep you folks posted.
Well i’m english and most of my family are scottish, but i’ve been interested in celts and picts for around 20 years, and i’ve been the ST for W:tA for about 15 years ever since i found GURPS: W:tA, played one game and was hooked, and have been collecting the WoD books since then. My wife also likes the Fianna the most and so i’ve been writing stories based on them a lot, as she has been my only “gaming group” for many years :/
Our interest in the Black Spiral Dancers/White Howlers is that they are the garou through a dark (or broken) mirror. I’ve never played them as mindless psychopaths, well mostly, but as what the garou could become if they aren’t careful (using the corruption chart from Outcasts, as that’s one of the things that i’ve always felt W:tA was missing, the chance for PC’s to fight their own corruption). Plus, one thing that is a staple of celtic tales is the doomed love, or the doomed hero, like the story of the White Howlers.
I am interested in the other tribes, and all the denizens of the WoD,but to a lesser degree.
So, that’s my (and my wife’s) feelings 🙂
The other thing I’ve been thinking about is that all of these Garou live in the real, Weaver object dominated, world and I’d like to see hints of that in their design. I always liked Werewolf art that acknowledged that although “modern primitive” might be the ideal for Garou, that Get of Fenris probably still has a mobile telephone, and that Fianna probably wears mass produced trainers when he’s not a 9 foot tall killing machine. One of the criticisms leveled against WtA is that it was a superhero setting. You roll into town in your tribal tattoos and loin cloth, destroy the oil refinery and ride off into the sun set. I’d like to see some acknowledgement that all Garou are at some level both mundane and supernatural, because that’s where true horror comes from….Sorry, that went a bit beyond the “what should we get him to draw?” remit.
Two more questions before Rich and I have a chat, if anyone catches these:
1) There’s a lot of emphasis on packs. To explain myself, I find myself drawn more toward one to three characters, erring somewhat toward the solitary figure because I see these as showcasing the essence of the tribe. The pack, oddly enough, doesn’t trigger that because in my experience the essence of the pack is a cross-tribal affair in game. Do you folks feel that tribal packs are a better representation of Werewolf: The Apocalypse as a whole?
2) So, think of the fullpages as sort of movie posters, each one trying to sell a player on a tribe. The list above has six “action scenes” and seven that are more still or contemplative. Yet there are still calls for even less action and/or violence. What would be your ideal balance between kinetic action and more passive tension (or aftermath)?
Good questions…
1) I’d say it depends. Two to three Garou is just fine for me, as I think that the “perfect pack” is more an ideal than something that is formed on a regular basis these days. I mean, there are far too few Garou to make sure every pack has five members of five auspieces, isn’t it so (the player characters are, as always merely an exception of the rule). So yes, I think, that Werewolf is about packs… at least if you count three or even two Garou as a pack. I do. I think the whole pack thing is something that other cWoD games never had… okay, now Mages have their cabals, Vampires their… whatever. But their circles are that not much of a spiritual necessity, as it is for the werewolves.
On the other hand you may be right: Sole Garou may be a good thing to show, what the tribe is all about. It worked well with the pictures in the tribe descriptions, so… but I think some tribes are more about community (or hierarchy), than others and that could be emphasized by showing more than one Garou on the tribal full-pager. As I think about it, these haven’t even to be werewolves themselves, Kinfolk works just fine.
And yes, I think that packs, where all members belong to the same tribe are an interesting concept (which I unfortunately haven’t had the chance to see in play yet). In contrast to other cWoD games, Werewolf even gives you the opportunity to have a wide range of different characters within a single tribe: What are auspieces, breeds and lodges for anyway. I even think that there are certain campaign types, that work better with single tribe membership that with multiple tribes: Take stories about cross-tribe politics, conflicts between lodges within the same tribe, spiritual quest for the tribal totem or defending tribal territory. I think, that Caerns with all tribes in them would also be quite rare.
So I think both is possible and both is appealing…
2) I think, that Werewolf is about violence too, but that this violence is more a means and not an end. And it is not aesthetic… they are fighting a war! I see fights within the tribal full-page pictures as an opportunity to introduce the major antagonists of the game: BSDs, banes, fomori, ordinary humans (at least for the Red Talons they are, so I’d like to have a picture of a pack of them sneaking around a camp of huntsmen or even ordinary boy scouts), hunters, vampires and weaver spirits. These should all be depicted in the full-page pictures, I think, but not necessarily in fights.
I also think the request for less violence has something to do with the reputation of werewolf: Many people see it as a game, that is about kicking the Wyrms ass, a game about eco-terroristic fascistic wrecking (fur)balls of mother earth (I have heard such comments about the game). It is clearly not and I think many see W20 as an opportunity to make people get rid of the prejudices, they had about werewolf. And less violence, less proof it is a game about ripping wyrm creatures in half.
A great scene for the Silver Fangs would be a duell scene Garou vs. Garou, to see, that even the warriors of Gaia have their issues.
Thoughtful responses. In fact, one raises a further question:
The phrase “an opportunity to make people get rid of the prejudices they had against Werewolf” is actually kind of interesting to me, because fighting those prejudices has been an ongoing thing. It informed Revised, for instance, and some people weren’t that fond of the choices made there. The issue we faced is that there are a lot of prejudices: ones like racial stereotyping, the focus primarily on European and American cultures, the romanticization of werewolves at the expense of them feeling dangerous… as you can see, many that are at odds with one another. If you play down the violence, you fight the “hack-and-slash” prejudice — but at the same time, how do you also fight the “hippie Captain Planet with fur” prejudice?
This may merit a blog post in its own right later on, I think. One of the major things about Werewolf 20 is that I want to do right by the people that stood by it, but in some cases that means being completely unapologetic about some aspects — such as violence — something that I think will require further discussion.
Well…
1) To me there are not enough werewolves in the final times. So a cross-tribal pack makes sense. The only place for a tribal packs is on a isolated Sept.
2) At least the CHILDREN OF GAIA art must be a peaceful scene. And i think the same goes for STARGAZERS.
The UKTENA, RED TALONS, BONE GNAWERS and GLASS WALKERS art could be about territory (spiritual realm, wilderness and the city, respectively).
1) As it was pointed out by someone before, packs are often absent in pictures, sadly. Each tribe as so much to offer, that a single character can’t encompass it all. With three to five characters (where I see the numbers of a pack) in it, each picture might “sell” the tribe it shown, as each of the tribe members in the pack might be the one appealing to the viewer in question.
I have met some pretty optic oriented people, making character creation choices based on the artwork. Some of them declined or chose a certain character option over details in the artwork that were in no way characteristic for that option (in Werewolf that would be Tribe or Auspice, but I’ve seen it happen in D&D, Dark Heresy, d20 modern, Shadowrun, too).
Also, tribes are in essence social groups. Picturing them should be done by showing a group and group interaction. It just tells more to the viewer then a single person ever could.
Even if an Apocalypse game is in the end with characters from different tribes, it is not about a bunch of individuals that were stand-alones before, but individuals who come from their tribe, which should be pictured as a group, really.
2) This is hard. I disagree that the children of gaia picture should be “peaceful” for I’m a fan of “Those who apologize that they had to, after ripping of your arms and put it down your throat”-description of the Children of Gaia, that was found in Masters of the Art (iirc). Also “Grand Mother’s Touch” and “Lunar’s Armor” granted them the nickname “Duracell Bunny” for their Health levels just wouldn’t end. Anyway, sure there are themes like mystery, shamanism and such that are an equally important part of werewolf and should be represented. That’s why for example the Children of Gaia scene is nice, with corpses in the background or just reaching into the view from the sides, showing that there is fight, but also things to be done after the fight.
I can’t really tell, where the acceptable ration would be. I would certainly hate if any picture was to focused on fighting, while others were to focused on something else. That, leads back to 1) and the possibility to show different facets of garou or tribal live by having several characters in the picture. So a Get of Fenris fight scene will have the Claw and Teeth attack, but also have the pack member Godi/Theurge applying healing or the Skald/Galliard raising a fetish weapon into the air to strike a far away enemy with a lightning or something like that.
That said, I really like the open development approach. I wasn’t too happy with some of the choices in revised, as I’m never tiered of mentioning. But I usually enjoyed when sidebars in the books or editorials or forum posts explained the intentions behind a certain information in the books, even when I didn’t agree.
crap. Wrong “Reply” Button.
Should have been a direct reply to Ethan’s post, obviously. Hope he does read it anyway. 😉
There’s a bit of discussion of this on the forums at the moment and I know that my view is not universally held, but I would avoid representing mono-tribe packs. I feel it takes away from illustrating the idea of “this guy could be you”. Also, in a game with a reputation for just being about fighting intertribal relations in the pack are one of the biggest opportunities for roleplaying among players. I’m against an emphasis on single tribe packs in the design.
As to violence in the tribe images, I’m sort of against that too. With the possible exception of the Stargazersand Glasswalkers the way in which they punch monsters isn’t actually what distinguishes one tribe from another. What’s different between a Get or Fury fighting in an image? I’d argue, as cool as it looks, one werewolf tearing something up is the same as another. Obviously you’d have to portray the fact that Get or Shadow Lords have a somewhat more tradtional martial culture than other tribes, but by the time they get to beating on each other it just homogenises up a bit. All werewolves are fighters, werewolf fighting kinda always looks the same, so it may not be the best way to differentiate one tribe for the other. I’m aware that that’s an extreme view, and I don’t think we should end up with no fight scenes, but I think I would err on the side of less of them rather than more.
If the characters shown in the tribe pictures are a pack or not is not easily perceived . Could be or couldn’t be. But still, that doesn’t mean, that it shouldn’t be three to five characters that show the variety of a tribe, instead of one.
Also, we are only talking about the tribe pictures here. Doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be multi-tribal packs in other parts of the book. I’d really welcome that too.
I suppose the question is: What is the purpose of the full page splashes?
• Is the image using a single character to represent an entire tribe, sort of as “The Hero of the X”, or posterchild?
• Or is the image itself a representation of the Tribe through a scene/scenario?
Right now, it would seem that the intent is the former.
However, if the later winds up being chosen, then adding other characters (other than an opponent being destroyed, a comrade being mourned, etc.) could help give a better picture of what many look like, even in the same pack/group of that Tribe. Heck, showing that linebacker-looking CoG in the pack, or the Lupus Glasswalker in the backgrounds would be a good way of showing some of the less-likely, but wholly viable types that are in the Tribes, but not taking the spotlight off of the reason for the stereotypes, which is up front and in your face in the foreground.
In the end, either will look great, I’m sure. 😀
I think both are intended in the original descriptions above. Children of Gaia or Shadowlord certainly describing a scene.
And, I’d like that. “A picture is worth a 1000 words”, isn’t it. But a single person can’t really encompass all that a tribe is. If a single entity could, what would be the point in having more than one ancestor spirit per tribe?
So, it doesn’t matter if or if not, the garou pictured are a pack or not. Like in my examples above, a student/teacher situation, or a gathering of sorts, maybe even a party for Fianna might be good scenes to picture the various facets of a given tribe.
Two goals. The first is to have fullpages that say “Werewolf.” We knew going into it that we wanted the fullpages to be striking, impressive pieces that capture moments of what Werewolf is all about — that was the goal before we started saying “So hey, what if we tie them into the tribes?” So we think a lot about composition here.
The second purpose is the tribal purpose: to create an iconic image of what sort of character you might be playing, in a context that implies the sort of challenges and environments that evoke the tribe. It’s a little of one, a little of the other.
The leaning toward one to three Garou in a piece rather than three to five (or more) is largely because of the former goal: we want these to be focused, dynamic compositions. Showcasing the diversity of a tribe is a goal for the book, particularly for the writing, but it’s not that important a design goal for the fullpages in particular.
To me, the art representing the tribes doesn’t have to mean it is showing a pack, but rather a small collection (1-3) of characters that say “Your char could be like this, or this, etc.” So even a picture with 3 chars could show a pack or 3 individuals, depending on if the art shows all the chars in the same situation.
As for the violence/action, i guess it depends on the type of picture. If the chars are all involved in the same situation then they will all obviously be fighting or whatever, but if they are shown in seperate “scenes” then each can be doing something completely different. So in the latter case the action and passive scenes could be evened out.
I like the Strider fighting a Setite in library picture idea, fits the tribe on multiple levels.
With these pictures, I agree that the cultural part rules over the violence. The garou have thousands of years of culture, and each tribe has their own ways.
About the Black Spiral Dancer issue, even if you don’t have them as playable, give them atleast a similar spread as the Gaian tribes to denote these guys are actually a -tribe- of garou serving the Wyrm, not some random monsters. Also, do give Skin Dancers similar treatment (without the famous ashtray, of course). Both of these Wyrmy groups should be taken seriously by the players as serious foes, not treated as cannon fodder for players to kill.
I gotta agree completely on the Dancers issue.
Although I think that they should be presented as a playable tribe in W20 because such an anniversary edition, that is about collecting everything about the Garou, should have the information and Gifts to play members of all Tribes and the Spirals are the largest Tribe out there.
Yeah, exactly. This isn’t just another corebook where they can be put into the ‘foes’ section with only a glancing look at them.
The fact is that the Dancers are -not- all giggling rapists and murderers. Most are quite clever and resourceful. And I want W20 to remember this, these guys are a well oiled, very powerful TRIBE of the Wyrm. Not a gathering of giggling lunatics who can’t do anything right. Book of the Wyrm 2nd ed plus MET book of the Wyrm have great sections for the tribe.
Also, good to remember is that v20 had Baali presented as playable characters. While I understand why people might feel unsure about BSDs as PCs, they do deserve a through treatment as much as any tribe.
Make no mistake, the Black Spiral Dancers will be represented with due gravity.
I have personal issues with portraying a tribe that includes a rape culture as “equally valid” — that, unfortunately, is something that I don’t think will ever change about me. That doesn’t mean that I want to have the BSDs come across as cartoonish, or to pretend they don’t have a tribal culture. They’ll get detailed in here; we have the space for it. But I have ethical issues with extending them outright endorsement on top of the mechanical and cultural details necessary.
Werewolf: the Apocalypse has always been a story about “Savage Horror.”
Regarding the violence of Werewolf, not only is it physically manifested by the claws and teeth of a Garou ripping apart their prey, but by the internal Rage that boils inside of them like a volcano until it erupts in a violence that, even when not physically expressed, can make a tough biker piss himself if a particularly Rage-filled Garou gives him a nasty enough look. However, as powerful as that force is within him, it is just one piece that makes up a Garou, but it is a mighty powerful piece at that.
As for the particularly abhorrent acts that are included in the BSD culture; I dare say that the acts they use can be seen in many other tribes, whether it’s absolute subjugation, slavery, genocide, treachery, inbreeding, or any other horrendous acts that are committed “for the cause.” At least the BSDs are willing to admit that their deeds are vile, but in their eyes, it too is done for a purpose. Their minds are twisted, or are they awakened?, by the vision of the Wyrm (probably more twisted than anything. *chuckle*.)
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the violent and terrible acts that the BSDs do should be praised, honored, or anything but reviled. But they are not alone in these acts. And those acts are manifestations of their beliefs and culture. The BSDs simply are not reviled by them. That makes them truly horrific because they see their own darkness and revel in it (at least that is my understanding.)
But they are still tribe. A sick, twisted, Evil tribe, sure. But a living, passionate, culture with a purpose, rites, gifts, totems and social structure just like any other. They are extremists, willing to do whatever it takes to win for what they believe in.
So whether your Get of Fenris is using his female mate as a punching/breeding bag, your Uktena is conducting blood rituals of children, your Red Talon is murdering a family who happens to be camping in the nearby woods, or your Silver Fang is shagging his sister to keep the line “pure”, there is plenty to revile in all of Gaia’s creatures and claiming that you cannot consider the Black Spiral Dancers as an equal in Tribal status because they commit more terrible acts openly and gleefully is turning a blind eye to the Horror which Werewolf always left boiling just under the surface: When will YOU Rage… and by Rage, when will YOU become the monster within? (at least, to me, that was always a strong concept for Werewolf: the Apocalypse.)
Again, I understand your resisting of wanting to give the BSDs the credibility of a “true tribe” because they are so openly terrible and you have personal issues with acknowledging them, but it is also a valid point that their embracing of the darkness openly makes them even more necessary to include in this World of Darkness book. And by moving them to simply “antagonist”, you hide a truer fact that any Gaian COULD fall so easily too if they’re left to just being “bogey men.”
And, at this point, we’re still just talking about a full-page color piece to represent them, not necessarily about how they’ll be represented in roleplayability, or mechanics in the book.
If you want to best represent what it is to hate/fear about them, this is a good opportunity to do so. Show that monster that all Gaians should fear, because it knows what it is and is proud to be it. Plus, Ron Spencer would rock this piece out. 🙂
I understand your passion, but I disagree that the best opportunity to represent what to hate/fear about the Black Spiral Dancers is to present them as if they were equally valid representatives of Werewolf as the tribes of the Garou Nation. I think it’s misleading to rank “capable of” and “openly embraces and institutionalizes” as comparable — instead of heightening the horror of “capable of”, that tactic becomes apologetic for “openly embraces and institutionalizes.” Pointing out the horrors within the Garou Nation does not mean “so, by compare, the Black Spiral Dancers” aren’t so bad” — it means they’re much worse. It would only mean the Dancers “aren’t so bad” if the existence of those horrors within the Garou Nation meant that such acts are condoned and acceptable.
Ron doesn’t work fast; I think thirteen full-pages, especially if they’re in color, will be pushing it. If we wanted to risk breaking the camel’s back, my first instinct would be the Lost Tribes well before Black Spiral Dancers — not only are they more emblematic of the Garou Nation, but they haven’t had a full-color Ron Spencer piece, and thanks to Book of the Wyrm 2, the Dancers already have.
Full colour. Yeah!
By the way, I speak passionately, but not having a BSD Ron Spencer piece won’t kill me either. ^.^
Ethan, I understand your problems with having them as PCs, it is something I myself haven’t really seen done well.
And thank you for taking time representing them well. BSDs are, in my opinion, often given the cannon fodder treatment in games, due corebook’s descriptions of them. This makes them seen less threathening (and I know they cultivate that image, like woah), and thus their amount of power strange.
Best BSDs I’ve seen are those who use the darkest aspects of the Garou Nation against them. The kind who attract the abused Fianna metis to dance in search of a better life.
And I don’t mind if that old picture is used, either ^^
“With these pictures, I agree that the cultural part rules over the violence. The garou have thousands of years of culture, and each tribe has their own ways.”
This. We all know that violence is a large part of the Garou lifestyle; it’s unavoidable. In fact, to many people, W:tA is the hack’n’slash counterpart to V:tM’s political scheming and backstabbing. What makes W:tA better, though, is its emphasis on culture and spirit. What is each tribe known for, other than ripping guts out of things that don’t need to sully Gaia’s face for one minute more? How intimidating and awesome would a Get blacksmith look, cast starkly in dark shadows and red glow from a forge as he creates a new fetish hammer? Or an ancient Uktena battling a Bane into slumber amidst red canyons of the American Southwest? Perhaps a Child of Gaia fighting spirits of greed and corruption at a political rally.
It also occurs to me, all of these ideas have been set in the present. Why not choose a famous scene from a tribe’s history to incorporate into the images? Maybe as told by a Galliard using Shadows By The Firelight. 😀
I keep flashing to two images for the Fianna that seem rather stereotypical to me- one is of a lone Fiann either singing/howling on the misty hillsides or tearfully gutting a Black Spiral (fallen cousin, perhaps?), or a more Boondock Saints-inspired image, with two Fianna executing a Fomor in South Boston. Both images make me grin. 😀
The latter Boondock Saints styled picture sounds cool as hell. Although I personally would love the picture to include at least some reminder of their connection to the Fae… Still that sounds so tempting I might even forgive the lack of such connection.
Then again I could roll with the other executioner of the pair to be a modern Fae, but I doubt that such an idea will get the public opinion on it’s side. Sadly.
I’m probably really swimming against the tide here but I don’t like the Fianna/Faye ally thing. It feels like a hang over from a time when WW didn’t know what the Faye were going to be in the WoD and that Fianna were then saddled with. I understand that its part of the history of the tribe, but I don’t know if they benefit from the idea that they are hanging around with faeries all the time. I see the fae connection as part of the Fianna’s past rather than their present.
I dunno about “swimming against the tide,” but historically it’s true that the connection was visualized back in the days of planning Faerie and Ghost, well before the conception of Changeling: The Dreaming as it came out. I think what you saw in Dark Ages: Fae is probably more akin to what was visualized for the Fianna and their ties.
That, or Darby O’Gill and the Little People, to hear some of the British Isles fans/freelancers gripe.
1st Get TB also had a Troll description, not really fitting the Trolls from C:tB but the Denizens of the Dreaming Ogres.
Anyway, I woulnd’t like to have any other supernatural entities, except spirits and possibly kin, featured in any other capacity besides antagonist. It is about the tribes, the garou specifically, and it should bring the essence of the tribe to the viewer, even without much background knowledge. The pieces need to be interesting, so people will read the text about the tribe, too.
Sure, this would be a bigger concern with a core book, than with a 20th Anniversary tribute edition, but still, the book probably will, like V20, be a complete playable game by itself, so yeah, the pictures have to sell the tribe and not confuse with bystanders that aren’t part of the tribes essence.
Awesome! These all look great. The above poster’s point about art deco not being right for the Glasswalkers pic is good. I like that the werewolves in these pictures are allowed to be in forms other than crinos — that form is overused in some art where the werewolf is not doing anything nearly violent enough to use that form. I’m glad to see it’s not being overused for these.
I guess the one other thing I’d add is to please not have Fair Glabro women — their glabro forms should be just as hairy as the males. Not with shaved legs.
Thank you all for making W20 and for letting us give our feedback! I think I’ll be checking this blog every day. Looking farward to seeing what you have!
Lots of great suggestions so I’m just going to pick a few things out which I would like to expand on and hope it’s not too late.
For CoG, I would like to use Questor Treetalker from Rage. I realise he’s not a signature character for W:tA but he is nevertheless iconic. Moreover, I think it would be great to have a Lupus Galliard leading a Moot of CoGs and their kinfolk around their fallen foes – or even a Gathering for the Departed over fallen garou and kinfolk.
Glass Walkers: some great ideas above for breaking away from the boardroom scene. Perhaps a Random Interrupt in the back of a van giving instructions as a series of monitors display a chase scene in front of her, breaking into a live scene through the windscreen. It’s the kind of scene that only a full-page piece could do justice to.
Red Talons: agree they should be in hispo if possible
Shadow Lords: I liked the idea from the Rev’d tribebook that they were the tribe that did what it takes. Do we really need artwork to show that they are sneaky? I like the idea of Konietzo talking tactics with the Hakken etc, which also fills the gap if the ‘Walkers are out of the board room.
A mediteranean house with a complex series of related images and diagrams on the back wall while three ‘Lords have a concentrated discussion. To the right is a balcony revealing a thunder storm.
Silver Fangs: I like the idea of adding Albrecht pack, but there’s no reason they can’t be in the background of the throne as per the original suggestion.
No opinions worth mentioning on the rest but it sounds really good. Thanks for consulting us 🙂
*chuckle* Yep. Just a bit late 😉
Check out the “Here’s what we tell Ron Spencer” post that came after this with the many changes to the original ideas. 🙂
Belated response, and irrelevant, but still. I just discovered this blog after the GenCon open development panel, the highlight of the day for me.
The piece that for me was the single cornerstone illustration of Werewolf: The Apocalypse was the multi-tribe series from W:TA 1st Ed (and I think repeated in 2nd ed?) This was before White Wolf was bound to two-page spreads for their various tribes, auspices, etc, and the short descriptions of the 13 tribes took up about a half-page each; the tribe write-ups had little clusters of three or four representatives in the same picture, acting the part together–a rare case of obvious multi-tribe interaction! The picture of the Get and Black Fury about to throat each other, the Child of Gaia holding them apart, and the Bone Gnawer scampering out of the way between them really stuck with me for as long as the series ran 🙂 Though the bold black and white tribe illos from 3e and Spenser’s amazing work are both appealing, the interaction of those multi-tribe spreads was appealing and engaging, a bit less posed than the one-to-a-page illustrations of later editions. Even if it felt more like a marginal illustration than the pictures that were to come.
Very excited about 20th anniversary, looking forward to the kickstarter!