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73 responses to “May-be? Might? [Monday Meeting Notes]”

1. 

   Wes

   May 8, 2023

   As to the question of whether you should focus on one supernatural at a time or a bunch of them all at once, I’d probably favor the former, but at the same time that’s already been done. However, separating them all lets each one shine. I would love to crack open a shiny new book about vampires and how to play as one, and expect all the themes and struggles to be vampire-based.

   There is a hurdle to overcome, though. How do you make these vampires unique? Do you make clans under a different name? Are vampires merely different only in the kinds of abilities they have?

   So, do you offer the various creatures of the night as rough estimations of player classes? This can bring many types of supernaturals together in a fun way for groups, but why do all these beings so easily coexist instead of staying with their own kind? I think it makes sense the supernaturals in CofD, even if they are not at war with each other, have generally cool diplomatic relationships with each other by default and tend not to mix.

   Bit of an unrelated question, but I have been thinking about solo play in TTRPGs recently and how that can open up games for people who may not want to play with others or have no one who plays the games they like. I know Scion 2E will soon have a book that explains how to play solo games, but I am curious about the attitude toward the concept at least at Onyx Path if not the industry at large. Is it a relatively new thing? Would it possibly be worth exploring more? And to bring this back to the main topic, perhaps a horror game focusing one supernatural type would fit well for solo-play, at least in my opinion.

   1. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      OK- first off, for everybody who has posted so far this week: Sorry I haven’t been able to get on here to join the conversation! It has been “a week”, and we’re not done it yet. But fortunately, my various meetings have eased up today, so here I am!

      As for your thoughts here, Wes, I certainly think that we can assume a certain amount of coolness if not outright friction between group of creatures (and people), whereas individuals and small groups can, and do, work and exist together. Which is a really good situation for games that are designed to create cool stories for players. I actually think that solo gaming is a pretty interesting avenue to explore – I’m actually soloing Gloomhaven right now in my spare time, so I haven’t touched it all week – and the Scion solo rules are something I want to use as a test for whether we can do more with the idea. Way back, I bought Tunnels&Trolls for exactly that reason, as it was the first D&D-style game that straight-up offered solo play. No wrestling with getting a gaming group together, but also no camaraderie with your group, either. So, pros and cons.

      1. 

         Wes

         May 12, 2023

         No worries from me! You probably have a lot to do and it’s appreciated that you spend as much time as you do here. Your thoughts on solo games makes sense, you do lose a little bit of that natural companionship at the table in a solo game. Though I wonder how many people who are a little more shy but are interested in the worlds of these games might exist compared to those who are comfortable with both or prefer group games. It’s not like we have statistics! But I can’t help but wonder about it.

         To circle back to horror specifically, I can see the benefits others have suggested of one core book and multiple supernaturals touched on with all you need to get started, while supplements for each type get released, and that way people can get all of the material or just some of it without missing key mechanics. If someone only casually enjoys playing a Fae they will be perfectly served by the corebook, but if they REALLY like Vampires, they can potentially buy up all the vampire material they want. I know there are people who wish CofD 2E had done what 1E did and buy a single core book and then you buy each supplement, but I personally prefer being able to just get Requiem, or Forsaken, etc. if I want to. Now, if I understand what other people are suggesting with a corebook with the basics on multiple supernaturals, followed by specialized supplement books for each supernatural being, that could be the best of both worlds. The only problem I see there is word count! Which I suppose branches off to a slight tangent: I am sure you have to put word count limits on projects for one reason or another. Do completely new projects like a theoretical brand new core book for a brand new IP call for stricter word counts because of the risks of trying to put something new and untested on the market?

         1. 

            richt

            May 15, 2023

            As for word counts – they’re just a tool like any other part of the process of making TTRPGs. We do ask quite a lot whether we should make game books that are small and unintimidating, or the larger books (not M20 or Exalted 23rd size, though!) that we know folks see as good “bang for the buck” and worth sitting down with. So really, word count flows from those sorts of decisions and if the material needs it, then we try and establish the word count from there. Now, within that stage of speccing out what goes into a book, regardless of the determined size, you really do have to be careful as to what sections get how many of those words you’ve determined are going in. Also something we review and talk about a fair bit when a dev proposes the outline for the project. But I don’t think newness of a property really enters into it, just what info where, really.

2. 

   zilaenor

   May 9, 2023

   For “which creatures?”…

   Angel, Thomas Raith, John Mitchell, and Alucard are all (at points) heroic vampires sharing similar limitations, but they approach humanity in very different ways and have fairly different powers

   Changelings, sin-eaters, and hunters can easily fulfill liminal roles with similar abilities from vastly different sources. In each case, leaning too hard into the power pushes them further away from humanity

   It might be interesting to have it mechanically generic and based in terms of their Callings in relation to human society — predators, exiles, outsiders, guardians, obscurers (even without a traditional masquerade, there’s always dangerous, eldritch knowledge), teachers, warrior — plus some set of problems (hungers, banes, etc.)

   Players could pick a la carte or use suggested builds, e.g.,
   * Classic Vampire: draining thirst (blood), environmental bane (Sun), strength, speed
   * Changeling: unstable attachment to reality, material bane (iron), true sight, glamour
   * Hunter: squishy, trauma, lore, relics

   Depending on what people want, you could have expansion books that dive deep on the breadth and depth of a particular creature, but people wouldn’t have to wait for that to play their esoteric favorite (yes, I’m thinking of Realms of Pugmire)

   1. 

      Hroth’ger

      May 9, 2023

      I like the idea of not focusing an the type of monster, but focusing on the role the “monster” or PC plays instead.

   2. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      That could definitely be a way to put some supernatural types together – so are you saying that you’d like starting with a bunch of types, set up this way or some other method, and that you’d most like to see vampires, changelings, and hunters to start?

      1. 

         zilaenor

         May 11, 2023

         Definite Yes on “bunch of types”

         I don’t have as strong an opinion on which ones should be outlined in the first batch, but my preference would go something like this (| for larger gap in priority):

         fey-touched mortals, magic users (generic power), shifters, constructs, hunters | fey, magic users (sourced from another realm, e.g., fey, hell, etc.), ghosts | vampires, outsider-touched mortals, outsiders (angels, demons, horrors)

         1. 

            richt

            May 15, 2023

            I’m gonna ask you, if you care to, pop in to this week’s Comments section once it’s up, and let me know what it is about the types you’ve listed, and also about the gap in their power levels as I see them here. I’m going to be asking for folks to look at the kinds of supernaturals they think should be in a new horror game and tell me what they personally would play and why – so your answer seems like it would fit in. Thanks!

3. 

   Katfeathers

   May 9, 2023

   The Hedge, E-mails … Wasn’t this already in layout? Hope everyone on that team is ok.

   1. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      Sometimes, for reasons, we need to go back and pull a project back to a previous stage. Like, for example, if all the art was in except for the pieces from one artist, but those were expected soon, so the book could reasonably move into Layout with the expectation that those pieces would come in soon after layout began. And then, for reasons, the art did not come in, and we no longer could expect it to, so moving it forward no longer made sense and we need to pull it back and get another artist on the pieces. Of course, it all depends on the project and how the pages are formatted, and that’s Mirthful Mike’s call.

4. 

   Nicolas

   May 9, 2023

   I must say that I strongly prefer each supernatural citizen to have their dedicated book a year. So you can dive deep on what means to be that supernatural being.
   That would mean you’d have to pick at least a few. My preference are for

   Vampires
   Wizards
   Werewolves
   Frankenstein’s Monsters
   Ghosts
   Faeries

   1. 

      B

      May 10, 2023

      I’d like the core book to introduce all the main kinds before they got focused books.

   2. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      Thanks! That’s an on-target answer and I appreciate it. Now let me digress and not be so on-target, myself! We really had a real pain-in-the-butt time back in the day with Promethean first edition, figuring out what the name should be. It was always a game about man-made life ala Frankenstein and his monster, but calling it Frankensteins: No We Really Mean the Monster (because we knew the very first comment would be “Frankenstein was the creator’s name, not the creature”) just wasn’t cutting it. Something like Golem, even back then, just wasn’t cutting it, and we had additional challenges with the splats starting to require more than the one version of stitched together body parts. What could encompass the kinds of splats we were looking at. Re-Animated was considered, IIRC, but taking a cue from Mary Shelley and the subtitle “A Modern Prometheus” got us to something broad enough to cover our practical concerns, and artsy enough to allow our pretensions to run free. 😉

5. 

   Ekorren

   May 9, 2023

   Supernaturals like vampires are done already. If you’re going to do that again, it needs a niche and will still be compared to WOD. Do something new entirely.

   1. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      Like what? When you think of horror or dark urban fantasy, what sort of possible supernatural PCs do you imagine playing that haven’t been covered yet in TTRPGs?

6. 

   Cat

   May 9, 2023

   The charm of urban fantasy is the interaction between different supernatural beings in a modern social framework, and adding “new” groups after the original build majorly changes that social landscape (“Waitaminute, the fey control Hollywood? But you said it was the ghosts of Old Hollywood and that’s why there are so many remakes!”).

   So for me it’s all or nothing. So, umm, wow, that’s a big book. BUT I’d be happy for a core book to go for breadth and subsequent supplements to add depth for each type of entity.

   1. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      Sure, I think that’s a legit way to do it, now who are the “all” to start off the setting in the core? Which supernatural PC types would you be most excited about if you heard of a new urban dark fantasy/horror game featuring them from Onyx Path?

7. 

   Colin

   May 9, 2023

   The art from Tome of the Pentacle looks great! MtAW is easily my favorite RPG (and the only one with a magic system that actually makes me *feel* like a mage) and I can’t wait to learn more about the different orders!

   I’ll go against the grain and say that, for the question of which creature(s) to focus on in a new modern day setting , I’d prefer a game that has multiple supernaturals creatures in one book. Having a single book has advantages but having everything in one, in the vain of Exalted Essence, encourages those creatures to be played together and would probably make the world feel more tightly woven as all of those creatures need to be included in it’s lore.
   As for the supernaturals it would be tough for Onyx Path not to retread old ground but I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. I’d be interested in seeing any of the supernaturals that appeared in CoD again but specifically Vampires, Werewolves (or really shapeshifters in general), and Mages the most. For some sort of fresh ideas I’d pull from the following
   Outsiders (Taking inspiration from myths about Aliens specifically)
   Psychics
   Nephilim
   Valkyrie

   I know that you lot have already touched on some of those ideas in some form or fashion but it feels like there are still fun ideas to be had with them!

   1. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      Thanks for your lauding of the Tome art! We always appreciate accolades, and it really helps our crew as they push for even more cool ideas and images!

      Essence is a good example of how you can make a core with a whole lot of possible character types. And your logic of the world seeming more tightly woven by having those types all in the book is something I’ve heard more than a few times! And, it’s the big three in the book for you, with some different types to shake things up. That’s a valid strategy for getting folks one-part familiar (and beloved) supernatural types to play, and one-part surprise and fresh types. makes sense!

8. 

   Jason Inczauskis

   May 9, 2023

   Personally, I’d be happy either way. That said, when I finally make my pitch for one, I’m planning to go with multiple supernatural options in the core, with options to expand later by adding more or expanding on the existing ones through supplements. That would give variety right out of the gate, while still allowing people to get excited when their favorite critter gets it’s turn in the spotlight.

   1. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      So, maybe not what you’d pitch, or maybe so, but for you personally as a fan more than as a business-savvy creator: what supernatural type or types would you like to see in that core book? Like, what would make you check it out?

9. 

   Spider

   May 9, 2023

   Hmm. I think it would be cool to see enough of the core supernatural types such that players and storytellers can play a crossover game with the first couple of books. One way I think I’d like to see this new game line move away from WoD/CofD is the ‘no one can know anything about our supernatural type and we’re all xenophobic about letting other supernatural types anywhere near us, and we’ll kill you!!! if you know anything!’

   Maybe it’s just because I’m 45 now, or maybe it’s because I’ve been running a big crossover-heavy CofD chronicle for like… three and a half years now… and it’s been WAY more fun when everybody plays together and people can play whatever their favorite type is, but I find that much more fun.

   I’m not saying I want All Fun Happy Superfriends or whatever, right, but the more appealing idea to me is that Bob the Mage and Alice the Changeling and Clarice the Vampire can all be part of the core PC group from the get-go, and rather than ‘it is DEATH to tell another group about you,’ from the beginning it’s built in as more like… ‘well, yeah, you all can make a found family group together, and you’ll have to navigate diplomatic stuff together, but no one’s going to murder you for telling your vampire girlfriend that you can change lead to gold.’

   And having support for a few ‘core’ types will support that sort of thinking from the beginning.

   As far as horror? I love horror, but a lot of my horror focus is internal horror. Gaining power by using the tools of your abusers is good horror. I’ve been playing an Orphan of Proteus for *coughcough* years and the struggle to balance ‘I want to use my attainments’ with ‘I can’t become so bestial that I can’t go out in public’ is delicious to me.

   My favorite question as a Storyteller/Storyguide is almost inevitably not “can you do this” but “SHOULD you do this” where questions of morality and consequence hang on what players choose to do.

   1. 

      Cat

      May 9, 2023

      See, I’m 99% here too, because found families of diverse outsiders are Where It’s At, but I quite like the “veil of secrecy” element. I think I want secrecy as a weapon wielded against non-supernaturals, but not different *types* of supernaturals and not punishable by death so much as a complicating factor (“no, please, you have no idea how hard it is to palm fae gold when every cashier in McDonalds knows what it is.”)

      1. 

         richt

         May 11, 2023

         I’m enjoying how folks who have played in these sorts of games, like yourselves, are relating actual play experiences!

   2. 

      richt

      May 11, 2023

      Hey Spider! So, not a paranoid sort of crossover world but one where the supernatural types you can play, at least, aren’t in a Romeo and Juliet sort of set-up, but where the types have co-existed and settled on ways, pacts, arrangements for hundred, maybe thousands of years? Doesn’t mean that there isn’t still friction, just that there’s not a general “kill on sight” thing going on. And you can still have some sects that aren’t so nice, anyway. Any thoughts on what sorts of supernatural types would be exciting for you to see a new version of in such a mix? I do appreciate your note about the moral underpinnings of horror – that’s not something that we really touched on as much in these discussions, but it is very much a factor in horror, as you said. In fact, the absence of that question of “Should I” seems like one of the ways we identify an antagonist, so if you’re playing the monster…

10. 

    Karpomatic

    May 9, 2023

    Pax Unplugged was announced. December 1st thru the 3rd. Hope to see Onyx Path there again!

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       No word yet, but I expect we’ll be doing a bit more on top of our basic set-up with Studio2 or IPR that we’ve been doing. We have not made plans to return with a booth, etc.

11. 

    Chris Jones

    May 9, 2023

    As much as i appreciate the detail each Supernatural gets when they’re released as single splats, I find it tends to silo them off into their own gated communities and breeds a certain competitiveness between fans of either type. Maybe it’s the old WoD fan in me, but those splats released first out of the gate tend to be the ones with more focus and interest, so it would be nice if that top-heaviness was balanced out a bit.

    I think it would be a great if a number of the core types were all available in the main book, giving players a toolkit of options with which to build their supernatural of choice. In this way, one person’s idea of a vampire, could differ from someone elses, or even their next iteration. A supernatural that changes shape needn’t be a werewolf, as it’s a common enough ability to see, as are flaws like a dependancy on the life force of others, Bane’s toward traditional substances, and other traits.
    One of the things i appreciated about Changeling: The Lost was the way in which Seemings were very open to interpretation, and that two characters with the same Seeming might be very different. That approach could easily be applied to the Supernatural as a whole, while also distinguishing it from you past work.
    Finally, having a good chunk of supernaturals available from the get-go would encourage player collaboration between groups, and give some incredible range to the stories you can play as a group – and all would be different to more traditional WoD and CotD stories.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       In the old WoD first editions release, all of the first five benefited from the newness of it all, with WtA being the biggest recipient of that first rush to check it out after VtM 1e. That gave the line a bunch of players that dove right in and never let go, and then Mage/Ascension also came in for the trifecta. Not the case with nWoD/CofD, and there we have at least one case of a later game line blowing right past the first three with Changeling the Lost. So, it might just be that the times were simply right for the first editions of WoD. I mean, none of us can really say if starting with Changeling the Dreaming would have had the same impact as VtM.

       Modular, hmmm? It is certainly a method of giving a lot of creative direction to the player, so that’s already moving away from the same old/same old of WoD/CofD. Are you imagining these various types of vampires, for one, created in a player’s choice modular style, all existing in any sort of society and/or groupings?

12. 

    JonOfDevon

    May 9, 2023

    Regarding number of supernaturals/focus of supernatural releases… Something I have yearned for for decades, is a game that would capture the spirit of Clive Barker’s novel/movie, Cabal/Nightbreed. In that setting, there are a host of different “monsters”, or Midianites – each of them is almost unique in both their history (how they became a monster) and their powers or abilities. CofD gams like Beast or Deviant, with some level of adjustment, could cater to this kind of play well, I think; but it doesn’t quite scratch the itch fully.

    Following on from that, if you could have a central core of rules to generate multiple “types” of supernatural creature, that fit into different niches of the world, that could allow for easier cross-play between types (something that was notoriously challenging to attempt with cWoD, and easier in CofD). You could still have various different societies/political factions that interact with one another in a variety of different ways – some could be written up in the core book, while sandbox tools to create your own factions (a la the rules to create your own Courts in CtL) could also feature, if people had a particular niche they wanted to fill.

    Thinking further on this, and on my previous comment re: open world vs. creatures in the shadows, what I seem to be hankering for is a game that offers sandbox rules/guidelines for GMs/STs to mould the game into the world they want to play in, where various dials can be turned to allow for more specific monster types (vampires, werewolves etc.) vs. individual, unique builds (a la Nightbreed); open world vs. monster in the shadows; and various prescribe political factions vs. sandbox rules to create your own.

    I suspect I may be in a minority of 1 with this wishlist, though! 😀

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       So, and correct me if I’m off-base here, please, a setting where monster societies exist as a backdrop to the PCs, who can create more traditional monster types like those societies, but can also, and are encouraged to, build their PCs as unique monsters that might fit into one of the trad monster types, but really don’t? Modularity of construction, and then players can decide where they can fit in. In that backdrop, which kind of monsters do you think would work? Should we just straight-up go into the WoD/CofD ones as the trads and the PC unique ones as the new kids in town? That’d be cheeky! 😉

       1. 

          JonOfDevon

          May 12, 2023

          I’m trying to think of a way I can distil character “types” into the matrix-type creation rules developed for CofD; I think the closest I can think of (possibly because it’s the splat I’m most familiar with) is Changeling: the Lost’s system, but a little different. Bear with me as I go a bit stream-of-conscious here…

          So, your supernatural world can be kind of broken down into the “types” of monsters – not in the sense of vampires, ghosts, and so on, but more in terms of Predators, Lost Souls, Haunters, and things like that – the “type” is more a loose definition of their role or Function, that a ‘genus’ of monster. This would be the equivalent, sort of, of CtL’s Seemings.

          Then you have the Kith-analogue, which would give a more granular description to the Form a monster might take, along with some ability or power bonuses. Like Kiths, there may be a Seeming that feels like that Form’s natural home, but players are free to mix and match as the please, if they have a particular concept in mind.

          So these two options would form one axis of the character matrix – Forms being a kind of floating subset of the Functions. The other axis, similar to CofD, would be the socio-political Factions, similar to Changeling’s Courts. They can be defined, or made distinct, in terms of their self-perception (What are monsters? Where did they come from? What is their purpose?) and/or their outward-facing views (where do we fit with humanity? What is humanity to us?)

          I think that even with a relatively small selection of options in each category – say five in Function and Faction, and seven in Form – gives a large host of discrete monster-types that are available to players. And with additional toolbox rules for GM’s to create their own Functions, Forms,, or Factions, if they perceive a niche not yet filled – then the options a re potentially infinite.

          Regarding powers and abilities for characters, I think something akin to Dread Powers from CofD, where a more freeform approach can be taken to tailor your character’s stats to as close to your concept as you wish. I don’t know much about Deviant, but I understand that its approach to powers may also fit with this design approach?

          Finally, there needs to be a stat to measure how much supernatural power or strength your character has in general, and the extent of their “fuel” available to them in a given moment. For the latter, out simply, all monsters feed from humanity in some form or another – whether it be blood, spirit, fear, faith, or what have you. The nature of your monster’s appetite is more flavour than mechanically distinct resources, but it may well dictate how you feed – is it privately, with a single “donor”? Or is it consumption en masse, in the middle of a crowd? Do those you feed from gain any benefits, or is it parasitical in nature?

          I think many of the options – Functions, Forms, Factions, Powers – can be defined mechanically in quite broad strokes, while the player can furnish as much narrative detail as they feel appropriate to flesh out the character. Thus, even if you have two characters with similar mechanical stats, the details sculpted onto them may well result in two narratively different monsters.

          This is longer than I realised it would be (a frequent problem when I hit stream-of-consciousness), and I don’t know how well I’ve managed to further detail the game concepts in my head… I think I’d better stop there for now, though!

          1. 

             richt

             May 15, 2023

             That’s a good way to try and create a structural skeleton that folks can then use to “flesh out” character types regardless of their definition of vampire, or fae or whatever. If you do get a chance, I do think you’d be interested in how Deviant comes at that sort of thing. Thanks!

13. 

    Hroth’ger

    May 9, 2023

    I got the notion that e.g. the dresden files describe three very different vampire courts – @zilaenor already mentioned Thomas Raith of the White Court. They feed and socialize very diffently.

    In the WoD all (western) vampires descent from Caine. In CofD there are at least different creation myths, but they all follow (there are always exceptions) the same rules about drinking and using blood.

    Different narratives (and rules) of the (to outsiders seemingly same) supernatural species could lead to very different urban horror scenario. Not Vampire-Clans with the same origin, but very different creation, feeding, weaknesses. One Werewolf-type may get werewolf-children, one only creates new werwolves by biting their victim and another one is created by evil wizards planting wolf-spirits into people, whatever…
    Don’t give each one a vast number of supernatural abilities, just enough for character development and suitable to the role they play.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       I’m with you up until your last paragraph. Can you maybe expand on what you mean there? A limited powers game in general, the players starting out with limited powers but building to more? Something else? Thanks!

       1. 

          Hroth’ger

          May 16, 2023

          Sorry for the delay regarding an answer.

          If you use different roles like the batlike blood-horrer Vampire and the socializing Vampire, each kind should get their specific abilities.

          As each of these fills a niche, they should not have a broad range of powers like in WoD Vampire, but more like the Clan-Disciplines. So they have some powers to choose from and to get stronger and better, but they may not aquire the abilities of the other Vampire-types.

14. 

    SuperSabbatST

    May 9, 2023

    You could always hunt down the owners of Night Life and just purchase that IP lol. Can’t be that expensive.

    Barring that? If you do a vampire game…go for that Nic Cage Dracula vibe hehe

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       If we wanted to go the multi-monsters in one book route, I think our folks would very much prefer to create their own game and not retread Night Life. And a Nic Cage vibe…there’s only one Nic Cage! 😀

15. 

    The_Bob

    May 9, 2023

    Hey Rich, I have a suggestion. Do you remember how Eberron came about? WotC sent out the call for a bazillion pitches, then picked the one they liked and made its creator part of the dev team.

    Why not do something like that for a new urban horror game? Have people send in pitches capped at around 1000 words or so, pick ten or whatever, have them expand on it some more, pick 3, expand some more, etc.

    Maybe even involve the community. Give us snippets of each to gauge feedback, etc.

    I’m not suggesting game design by committee, because that would just result in some generic crap. But I think there is a way you could do this that could be fun, interesting, and yield something really cool. Maybe just don’t make poll results public, that way there is no pressure to throw away the “popular” ideas if they don’t actually work.

    And for what it’s worth, I like the idea that one book might cover, let’s say, 3 supernatural types. It would have to be a big book, say 20 pages of intro, 50 pages of setting, 30 pages of generic core rules, 50 pages of “mortal” character creation and generic “merits”, then 100 pages of (for example) the template and powers for vampires, 100 for werewolves and 100 for mages.
    Then add 20 pages of GM advice. And 10 pages of sample antagonists and misc.
    That structure would come in at around 480 pages, round up to 500 for good measure. That’s the same size as V20.

    And in a perfect would, I’d love to see you follow it up with some sort of setting book that describes the state of the supernatural world. What’s going on in the US, Mexico, Japan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, etc. And include one or two city write-ups that provide examples for how all the supernaturals associate with each other.

    Then maybe a 200 page book for each supernatural “The Player’s Guide to Vampires” or whatever, that dives much deeper into each “species”, adds new powers, subsystems, history, flavors, etc.

    I’m just rambling at this point. But my initial thought was “1 book per critter”, but then I thought about how small the older core books were in comparison to the 20th Anniversary books, and how much meat you can cram into just 100 pages. And I think putting the “main” species together from the start is the only way to really make crossover work seamlessly.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       Lots of good ideas, and it’s smart to try and figure out what something like this might look like as releases with size and page count and all as part of your thinking. It does make a difference. At this stage, though, I’m just floating ideas designed to get at what our community would like; hence the question about how many supernatural types in the main book and which ones. It looks like you may have convinced yourself to go with the larger number in the main book, with no help from me 😉 but which critters would you personally have in there?

16. 

    Purple Snit

    May 9, 2023

    I suggest a Core book, outlining the world, the place of the supernatural in it, character creation, social and combat rules, gear, basic magic, and so on.
    Then put out a tome each on Vampires, Weres, Sorcerers, Fey beings, Spirits, Undead, etc, but covering the many types of each in world myth (for example, there are Vampire tales from all over the globe), not just European-centered archetypes. Depending on the visibility of such beings, there could also be an investigator’s book, outlining people who try to catch, observe, kill, ir understand the supernatural around them
    This would focus on the abilities of each archetype, and allow depth in characterizing them. Players and GMs could buy what they want, and add as many or as few books as wanted.
    It also gives a whole line of possibilities, and includes beings from other cultures, with different purposes, histories, and outlooks.
    Just my thoughts…

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       Would you specifically like to see vampires, weres, sorcerers, fey, and some sort of spirits/ghosts as the focus in the book? I ask as you’d theoretically have to stop somewhere, even if you were expanding them in their own books.

       1. 

          Purple Snit

          May 12, 2023

          Kind of a Scion-like organisation; Core book = basic character creation, combat, skills, etc, and perhaps a background world and/or options like the possible visibility or mystery of the supernatural in campaigns.
          Then “splat books” with the supernatural beings, so you could give proper attention to each category. Vampires, Undead, mages, Fairies and fae beings, Werewolves and shapeshifters, maybe Angels/Demons, and a “miscellaneous” tome for anyhing that doesn’t fit with the others. And then a book about those who study/hunt them. Make them international – not just Euro-centric.
          Seems like a line with a finite scope, but lots of room for detail and choices in the various books.

17. 

    Louis Garcia

    May 9, 2023

    I’ve been thinking alot about and yearning for a new take on horror/urban fantasy setting. Nothing wrong with World/Chronicles of Darkness games, but to me, they seem rooted in another era of the RPG hobby.

    What would be cool to see in a new take on horror/urban fantasy setting?

    – rich detailed world with histories and mysteries to discover
    – new and different takes on playing supernaturals. As stated above, not Euro-centric.
    – no more secret world of supernaturals living among humanity. However, each population of supernaturals would have secrets and mysteries about them.
    – out of the gate, a game where you can play different types of supernatuals. But, as things develop, content where you just play a game that focuses on one type of supernatual.

    Concerning Vampire.

    Personally, since the mid 90’s, I’ve always had a Vampire campaign going. There has always been the next Vampire game to look forward to or to prepare for, be it Masquerade or Requiem. I am ready for a new take on a Vampire RPG. I think the hobby is ready for a new take on playing vampires.

    I’m glad this discussion about a new take on horror/urban fantasy RPG is happening.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       Hi Louis! So, out of the gate: one book, multiple supernatural PC types. I think I understand that after the one core, you’d want projects that detail each type. Then, from there, you mention that you’d enjoy a new vampire game experience, so the vampires are in! What other kinds of monsters should be PCs in the core, in your ideal setting?

       1. 

          Louis Garcia

          May 12, 2023

          I’m a fan of the traditional ones. Vampire, werewolves, witches, mummies. Sea creatures would be fun, mermaids or creature of the black lagoon types.

          1. 

             richt

             May 15, 2023

             Witches specifically, rather than wizard-types? For a different vibe; expectation of magic?

18. 

    Robert D

    May 9, 2023

    I’d definitely vote for a Core that establishes all the core archetypes (werewolves, mages, vampires, fey, ghosts, etc) that exist across the world. Then you could publish Players Guides for each archetype to delve into additional powers, abilities or feature options for that archetype. That way the folks like me that like all the basic options up front can have that while the folks that want more in depth looks at full potential abilities and lore can have individual book too.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       That sounds like a win/win way to do it, I’d think. Back to what I’m poking at with this blog- which supernatural types would you, personally, be happy to see and want to read about and play in that core book?

19. 

    THE Donnie

    May 9, 2023

    The method I am using for my own game I am making is to go with a corebook that features one splat. It touches on the other splats. From there, I intend on sourcebooks and possibly even lines based on those other splats I gave bare bones info about. I feel that allows players to jump into things and gives options for latet books.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       Setting up the inter-relations ahead of time and then focusing in on your releases on just one kind of supernatural PC type at a time to eventually have a connected world after a bunch of releases are out? That’ll take a lot of pre-production, and patience, but I like it. Now, if Onyx Path did a game that way, and this is specifically about how we’d do it and not how you are, what supernatural creatures would you like to see in our new horror/urban dark fantasy game? if we ever get around to making one someday?

20. 

    Sunwolf

    May 9, 2023

    For a new Urban Fantasy game I would want many different types interacting. You could use splat books to add more depth but at the very least there should be Magic users, Vampires, Werewolves, Ghosts, Fae, Mad Scientists.
    Also I would be more intrigued by more mystery and how they do (or don’t interact) with the mundane than I would with horror.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       Do you think that more of an emphasis on mystery is one of the things that makes something like this more Urban Fantasy? I mean, these are kind of nebulous terms in the end, and there is often mystery in horror, but maybe more of it in urban fantasy? (I like your addition of Made Scientists to the usual suspects).

21. 

    Leliel

    May 9, 2023

    For supernatural, I definitely feel crossover should be an option – so a “simple template” for various night people in the corebook works, especially if it also has normal humans in it. Different books focus on each type.

    The big thing is that, say, “vampire” encompasses a *lot* of creatures. Many, like the Adze, aren’t even the main characters in their own stories; the Adze is a spirit that binds with the jealous to make them witches, it’s a vampire because it feeds on life of the people its master hates. So I agree that “what kind of monster am I” seems more like a Calling – for example, whether the Adze-host considers themself more a vampire or a sorcerer with a distinct familiar. With that affecting how they develop, as naturally the vampire cares less about the esoteric and more about the day to day as living as someone who feeds to survive.

    I think it’d be good to outright say that these creatures do not have a single origin, but a loose association based on what they share – more culturally sensitive, and that means there’s plenty of plot hooks based around the agency of said creatures (I remember a book in the Hero System which had as a low-powered Urban Fantasy setting a version of Reno which had a large monstrous population within it – all of which were shaped just as much by Reno as they shaped it, like werewolf biker gangs, vampiric sex workers, and asura foreign investors in a tech boom – a lot of it is very cringey and semi-racist now, but it was smart to say the culture defined them more than they defined the culture).

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       There’s certainly a lot of creatures and legends of the supernatural out there, and many that could be seen as varieties of certain standardized types. One of the big questions for these sorts of things, is even if the varieties are playable in this game – would you play them? We have to look at something like this and consider what resonates with players, and why. Do we create a “modular” game book that allows folks to take elements and put them together to create creatures that are varieties of a monster understood by a large swathe of the audience? And if so, then what sort of setting could we possibly provide that allows for Lords of the Night vampires and Adze-host vampires and is still interesting and compelling for a larger audience?

22. 

    Steven

    May 9, 2023

    I suggest a core book to define settings and the different kinds of supernaturals (undead, shapeshifters, aberrations and so on) you can encounter / roleplay. Subsequently you can add books to delve more deeply in the characteristics, typical traits of said supernatural creatures, their organizations and lore.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       Any thoughts on just what supernaturals you’d like to see in there?

23. 

    Yiodan

    May 10, 2023

    As I included in my last bit of answers, I’d say multiple supernaturals but as others have said, all in one book. I don’t in this day and age I’d go for a Vampire: The third bite, or a Werewolf: The remooning. Either that or go the path of the show Lost Girl. All the supersnats were all in fact fae, some dark, some light. They still had their differences but they were all fae. This allows to make the core of the experience about the interaction of these creatures which I belive holds a lot of potential.

    Regarding secrecy, I loved how Tru Blood approached this. Everyone knew vampires were a thing, the “mascarade” wasn’t about keeping themselves secret, it was about pretending to safe to be around and upholding an agenda. People knowing about supernaturals, but still being distrustful and not being able to show them everything brings refreshing layers of complexity and roleplay.

    1. 

       richt

       May 11, 2023

       Hey Y! Didn’t they make most of the supernaturals in Buffy some kind of demons, ultimately? The common origin could be cool, but then there’d have to be something that gives the different types that evocation of what’s cool about a vampire or a werewolf, even if their base origin is demonic or fae or something like that.

       1. 

          Yiodan

          May 12, 2023

          Wouldn’t be surprised. I don’t recall but that would track.

          Agreed, just because the lore is aligned in such a way doesn’t – and shouldn’t – preclude each supernatural species from having an identity all their own. To me the closest WoD equivalent to their new role would essentially be a clan instead of being the entire splat. They would have, in my mind, at least as much identity and “evocation” as a clan/tribe. Through elements like specific merits/flaws for certains supernats, in addition to their selection of powers, it would be possible to get a pretty strong evocation. Even introduce variations such as vamp who feed of emotions instead of blood.

          An equivalent to a tribebook or at least a player’s guide could flesh that out even more.

          1. 

             Yiodan

             May 12, 2023

             I feel the need to add that I am painfully aware I’m saying this to someone with a proven track record and tons more experience then I’ll ever have. I’m only sharing because our takes and opinions were specifically asked.

             1. 

                richt

                May 15, 2023

                No worries! I did indeed specifically ask for folks to share, and deserve anything that I am subjected to :D. Although, seriously, these last few Comments sections have been delightful. We are fortunate to exist in a wildly creative community!

          2. 

             richt

             May 15, 2023

             That makes sense, and I do think that some – maybe not tons – but some additional books to really delve in deeply to the different types would be necessary in that kind of project.

24. 

    Tom Murr

    May 10, 2023

    I am also in the “all in one book” corner. We can get a basic outline for all creatures and then go deeper in later publications. Another idea from this discussion I like is not applying roles to creature types (werewolfes = fighters, vampires = social geniuses) but be open about that and define a creature by it’s actual role i.e. hunter, ambassador, etc. (Hello path system!)
    This approach allows for easy cross over stories and avoids stereotyping to a point. Then apply some fitting abilities and traits regarding it’s origin. Another big yes towards multiple origins and forms of creatures, like “leech” or “drinker”. This could apply to blood drinker, emotion leech, energy vampires…
    Further publications could go into details about different kinds of vampires from all over the world and ages.
    This book would give me
    # an introduction into the world (state of the world, factions, cosmology etc.)
    # an introduction into it’s creatures
    # rules
    # character creation
    # emphasis on the moment of transition to the supernatural world
    # storytelling section for players (i.e. techniques, safety tools, resources for research)
    # ST/SG section (with dials for more/less horror, usefull SG techniques and a structure for creating adventures)
    # antagonists

    I am a little worried that we might end up with a CofD with removed serial numbers. That’d be a product I am not interested in. I got my CTL and will stick to it, if there aren’t some good reasons to try something new.
    At this point of the discussion, I could imagen a slightly changed setting:
    The world is breaking. We are not waiting for Armageddon; it is already here. It is happening right now. We can witness it in societies breaking, in nature lashing out and allies falling. This happens in the normal and the supernatural world. We can look into certain cities and communities and see what the troubles are, that are breaking them: social injustice, cruel systems, lack of resources, natural disasters, etc. We can witness dictatorships rising, civil unrest, hate and fear rearing their heads up. This means the end of the world for not only a few people. If you don’t want to go too deep into social issues, concentrate on the tumult in the supernatural world instead. Magical realms getting destroyed can lead to a magical end of the world without the real-life issues.
    The supernatural world is also falling apart. One symptom are literal magical disasters. the magic life system is far to complex to be fully understood at this point and all kinds of creatures and mages tempered to much with it, just like in the natural world. The life web breaks in some places and unleashes energy in others in all forms and manners. The energy from these events can be harnessed and who knows, maybe there were some architects who pushed for this development for their own gains. Supernatural creatures loose their homes, their stability, because their home realms are being destroyed .Powers and Spells aren’t working as reliable as they once did. We can have hedge mages who work with broken magic, half remembered spells from ancient times. We can have shapeshifter that get stuck halfway between or manifesting in a new form. We can have dangerous places where powers and spell are just unpredictable.
    The second symptoms are the big players of the supernatural world, who are trying to reach their goals before it is too late. Some might even belief, that they can still save their world. Some are preparing for that what comes after. It comes down to: if you only have so little time, every moment counts and we have only so many chances to be who we want to be. Centuries of plotting come to fruition, hidden creatures crawl out of their dens, and our player characters must decide who they want to be.
    This setting can draw from all kinds of world ending stories and mythologies. Living in the end times doesn’t mean, that the ultimate end is tomorrow. These processes can be slow but the outcome might be set in stone already. Also, many stories about the world end include a prospect to a new beginning afterwards. Essentially it is a game about who we wanna be and what world do we want to live in. The outlook may be very dark and odds very slim, but our characters are alive in these times. It is up to the group to decide how bad things might get and what dials to turn up to eleven.
    Further books can go into details about all kinds of creatures, factions with their goals and methods during the cataclysm and their possible home realms (if they have any).

    1. 

       Tom Murr

       May 11, 2023

       My favourites would be:
       #1 Faeries, Changelings, anything along these lines
       #2 Wielders of arcane power
       #3 Demons
       #4 Shifters
       #5 Vampires

       1. 

          richt

          May 11, 2023

          Cool, thanks!

25. 

    Purple Snit

    May 12, 2023

    Kind of a Scion-like organisation; Core book = basic character creation, combat, skills, etc, and perhaps a background world and/or options like the possible visibility or mystery of the supernatural in campaigns.
    Then “splat books” with the supernatural beings, so you could give proper attention to each category. Vampires, Undead, mages, Fairies and fae beings, Werewolves and shapeshifters, maybe Angels/Demons, and a “miscellaneous” tome for anyhing that doesn’t fit with the others. And then a book about those who study/hunt them. Make them international – not just Euro-centric.
    Seems like a line with a finite scope, but lots of room for detail and choices in the various books.

    1. 

       richt

       May 15, 2023

       That seems like an excellent structure with room to expand – and I’ve found that the room to expand is key, as well as making sure that the set-up obviously has room to expand. I’ve seen some games that locked stuff in so tightly that when the community made it clear they wanted to move in a fresh direction that hadn’t been planned for, the creators lacked the flexibility to make that change. Stuck in the tar pit, as it were.

26. 

    Zaftig

    May 15, 2023

    For my money, I’d have to ask you to bring in Golems/Constructs/Frankenstein’s Monster, Creatures from the Black Lagoon would be fun, ghosties, and hunters!

    But I’ll probably pick it up no matter what because I really just love the company.

    1. 

       richt

       May 15, 2023

       Very atypical choices, I like it! Thanks so much, we really appreciate your support!

27. 

    Red

    May 19, 2023

    Personally I would love to see OPP making there own take on urban horror. You all really know the genre inside and out. I also would love it to be something that the possibility of crossover between types is something of a primary focus. Though each type may have books specific to them as well.

    Similar to the way CofD was somewhat organized.

    The. Ore book gives you the option to play several of the types rather than clans and tribe it would have types, pick 7-10 of them to give players choices. And then go more in depth on each type giving more choices for players of that type as well as advice for potentially running games focusing on just that type. The base book would give basics on abilities for each of the types similar to a chapter on disciplines/gifts/spells, then expand this with a players guide that gives more to all and then the individual books would give you even more options for those specific types.

    For my choices of types and potential subtypes in further books or the main one:
    1. Undead
    A. Vampires
    B. Mummies
    2. Shifters
    A. Werewolf’s
    B. Cat people
    3. Spellcasters
    A. Sorcerers
    C. Witches and warlocks
    4. Spirits
    A. ghosts
    B. Daemons//angels
    5. Prometheans
    A. Science gone wrong
    B. Magical creations (like imps/ gargoyles/ homunculai)

    You. An even have high level thing we’re one type crosses into another as a thing that players can work to become such as liches (undead/ Spellcaster), skinwalkers (shifter/spellcaster) and succubi (undead/spirit) and so on.

    Or at least that is a first idea.

    My second is the future of exalted similar to what WoD was supposed to be. Change the approach of the anime style to a modern horror but set in the e adult Ed worlds future and not set on earth. It is modern like earth and is something that modern people would understand but don’t actually set it on earth so you can go anywhere you want with it as it is not tied to our nations or history.

    Or those are my thoughts. TBH anything you all do in the genre would be great!

    1. 

       richt

       May 22, 2023

       Thanks so much, you included a lot of cool ideas in there, including the mix a and b to get a new but known type of supernatural. Thanks!