Before getting to the Monday Lunch Meeting Notes, here are a few thoughts that have arisen based on some emails I received last week (although we did talk about these at lunch too). I got an interesting message from one of our Mummy: The Curse Kickstarter backers where they let me know that they didn’t think that they’d back any more Kickstarters since while they appreciate all the “free stuff” they really didn’t like having to wait for the KS edition while the PoD was available. They much preferred to just go to DTRPG and click on an available product that’ll be sent pretty fast (instantly if a PDF). Their tone was that they wanted to be supportive, but that KSs just don’t work for them. My response to them was to suggest that they probably shouldn’t back any more of our Kickstarters. Not in a dismissive way, but because we really don’t want backers who aren’t comfortable with the process and/or aren’t really excited about the Rewards. Because the whole point of adding Kickstarters to the Onyx Path business methodology is to add fun to how we all make these great projects, not to force folks to adopt a process they’re not in tune with. We’ve said this a few times, but it bears repeating here: Kickstarter is not a pre-order system, but a chance for backers to enable, and be engaged with, the creation of the project. Some folks really get into that- they love the whole participatory aspect of a KS- but some don’t and there’s nothing wrong with that. Like I said to our concerned fan, the KS support is awesome, but so is showing your support by purchasing the PDF or PoD from DTRPG– we need both those kinds of fans, and more!
And that point is similar to some other messages I got concerning our Open Development Process and why project X is more or less Open than project Y. And by similar, I mean that in the same way I don’t want fans to try to adopt systems we’re using that don’t work for them, I also don’t want our creative teams trying to force themselves to work to a strictly defined set of Open Dev processes if those processes actually impede their quality of work on their projects. Some developers and writers thrive on the immediate feedback and intellectual bantering that goes on when they post whole swathes of their current project for the fans to see, others want to percolate and iterate their work until they, the creator, is ready to present a polished, finely-crafted work to open consumption. And most fall somewhere in between and are comfortable with different feedback loops at different stages. There’s really not a magic formula for “optimum genius” with this, or all creators and their creations would start to seem the same. And so, in the interest of encouraging as much pre-publication interaction with you great folks as possible, but not forcing it, you’re going to see varying levels of how we define the “Open” part of the Open Dev Process with each project.
And now, the meeting: not much on the Approvals end of things as we’re in a slight lull of project parts needing to go to the Approval Board. Eddy and I talked about the V20 Rites of Blood project he’s developing and how the idea of referencing other books in a text has been changed by the easy availability of the White Wolf backlist on DTRPG. While we agree that telling a reader “look it up, we’re not writing it again” isn’t how we want to go, the accessibility of old WW PDFs and PoDs means that adding a reference can be done specifically to let readers know that there is broader or deeper or just additional info at a place if they choose to access it. As opposed to telling a reader to look it up in a book that’s out of print and expensive to get a hold of. We also went over a definition Eddy found of just what long-term fans want from new editions: “What I liked before, but different”. Maybe, yes/no? Neither of us is sold on that being all there is to it- what do you think?
Here’s some more of that, but different updates:
– God Machine Chronicle (nWoD) Had to reorder proofs after discovering a couple of mechanical errors so we’re again waiting for PoD proof copies. Still trying to get this on sale in April.
– Strix Chronicle Fiction Anthology (VtR) Strix is in Editing.
– Blood and Smoke: The Strix Chronicle (VtR) Crisis handled, new authors working on the project, and we’ve pushed back our release estimate by a month to compensate.
– Mummy the Curse – The single volume PDF and standard color PoD, as well as the “virtual box set” PDFs are on sale and doing great. We’ve added separate product listings for the Player’s Book, the Screen PDF, and the SAS. Sent the KS edition files to the printer.
– Exalted 3rd Edition: Voice-overs came in mid last week, Ian is working on the KS video. I’m putting in the Reward Tiers all wordified, and the main text and we’ll combine these efforts with a KS preview for the dev team. From there we’ll submit. Sketches are all approved for the map and the artist/cartographer is moving to finalize the painted map- looking at printer samples this week that might be related to the map.
– V20 Hunters Hunted 2: New sections are in layout and almost all the art is in and in for approval. Justin is reaching out to writers for the HHII Fiction Anthology and has signed Bill Bridges, Rich Dansky, Alan Alexander, Matt McFarland, and more to come.
– V20 Anarchs Unbound is in editing and we are getting art for it.
– Deluxe Werewolf 20th Anniversary Edition: Sent the Deluxe W20 files to the printer (both Standard Deluxe and the Heavy Metal Edition). So far, no issues with the printer- hoping to see printer proofs this week. The W20 PoD versions look good right now, but waiting on new proofs. Mike Lee is three quarters-way through the W20 “Houses of the Moon” novel. The Storyteller Screen files are going to press with W20. Bill has prepared the W20 Anthology outline and contracting prospective writers. The Skinner is in layout and almost all the art is in. Jess Hartley is writing the White Howlers Tribe Book and the W20 Cookbook is being outlined. Check out some news here: http://whitewolfblogs.com/w20/2013/03/18/w20-cookbook-update-white-howlers-outline/
–Deluxe Mage the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition has Phil Brucato writing like a maniac and developing his writers, also like a maniac. Art notes and contracts out to our full-page artist, once we have some feedback from him I’ll look a posting an art blog along with Phil’s developer notes. Very early sketches for the fulls look awesome. We are very sad that Quinton Hoover, one of the artists we had hoped to work with to provide new art for the book, passed away last week. He was an amazing talent and his work improved every project he was in (check out MtA first edition’s Sons of Ether Tradition Book).
– W20 Changing Breeds is in layout.
– W20 Rage Across the World: Most of the art is in but a bit continues to trickle in.
– Guildhalls of the Deathless (MtC) is being written.
– Conventionbook: Progenitors (cMtA) is onsale now at DTRPG: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/113471/Convention-Book%3A-Progenitors.
– Conventionbook: Syndicate (cMtA) is in editing and art direction.
– Mage Translation Guide is almost done in Editing.
– W20 Book of the Wyrm is being written and red-lined. Check out the W20 blog notes: http://whitewolfblogs.com/w20/
– Trinity Continuum: Looking at the schedule to start setting up writing.
– Scion: Scion: Extras, has had a huge number of downloads- thanks! We’ll be offering a PoD version next week that we’ll charging for, and will drop a small price tag on the PDF as well next week, since it will have been out free for a month, so get it free now.
– Demon: The Frutang: lots of example of play commentary including from Black Hat Matt McFarland’s play test are up on the new Demon blog: http://whitewolfblogs.com/demon/ Check it out, there are quite a few playtests posted now and they give a very interesting (if early) look at the game. Text is being redlined and Rose is trying to get early art notes together.
– Free RPG Day Project: Reap the Whirlwind, for VtR, is a combined 64 page booklet that combines a revised version of “Into the Void” and additional rules files from the Strix and God Machine Chronicles. This will be available at participating friendly local game stores June 15, and is on its way to the FRPGD warehouse.
Reason for Drinking: We’re up to a quadruple shot, but very close now to when the EX3 KS is ready!
ETA for Exalted 3 Submit? Rough ETA? Please? O.o
No way, dude. Every time I post an expected date to do something and we miss it, everybody yells at me. I’m a sensitive soul, though I seem thick-skinned.
Could we turn that into a permanent thing? No more expected release dates?
If you mean the Schedule, then no- people need to have a framework of what our plans are and when we’d like to get the projects released. If you mean not prognosticating here on these Updates, then yes, that’s the plan. I want these to be a snapshot of where things are when I write it (usually after talking to the gang on Monday).
Do mind commenting if “working on the video” means “working on filming” or “working on editing in the voice-overs into the audio track for the final product?”
Editing everything already created together.
Now I have Hakuna Mattatta in my head. Thank you Rich..*tries to get it out of my head*
he he he- my work here is done-
No. Because then that would lead to pain as the date approached. Then suffering as that date was passed by.
And we know where pain and suffering lead to.
That’s right…. The World of Darkness Vampire emo scene. *guitar riff*
That said, the above info sounds like “Soon, provided nothing else unexpected happens.”
That said, I do hope you give us a 24 hour warning, once it’s all set up to give to KS.
Oooh, wouldn’t even have thought to ask for advance notice; but certainly yes please! One or two days advance warning would be phenomenal. Thanks!
I’m in favor of a notice unless that is going to delay it another day for the sake of providing the notice. Your mileage may vary. =D
We have always given 24 hours notice before activating the KS.
Well, about V20 and DTRPG backlist, I can only say referencing old books is ok, specially after DTRPG, but some books still need higher quality scanning, like Libellus Sanguinis II, never updated since it was added (2004). Some fans (me included) mentioned Sielanic Thaumaturgy paths, and they can only be found in Libellus Sanguinis II.
Upgrading the scans is on the agenda, but its DTRPG who has to decide on when and how based on their schedule. I can only encourage politely.
Any chance GMC will make it out this week, or should I reschedule my long weekend for next week? Yes, I have no life.
If I can get a new PoD proof really fast- it’ll be Friday at earliest.
You’re killing me, Smalls!
That one’s not up to Rich, though. That’s “fix the problems and then wait for delivery of a new proof,” which I can say from my own experiences is not something that takes a predictable amount of time.
Oh, I know. 😀
I (and friends) are just drooling over this book’s release, and have been anxiously awaiting it for some time!
I suppose I’m a bit let-down, but not surprised, that there are still folks who don’t quite understand that the KickStarters are for the Premium-Editions of the books and the goodies that come with that extra money, effort, and waiting. Sure, it would be cool if each one maybe came with a 20%-off discount for the DriveThruRPG PoD of the same book when it came out (usable as soon as the PoD was available), but if you’re backing the KickStarter, you get the PDF before anyone else too. So there’s a bit of a trade-off, IMO. But, if people still think that this is a “pre-order” for the physical book, and that it will come out as soon as, or shortly after, the KickStarter ends, or that both the PoD and Deluxe editions are going to arrive at the same-ish time… they may still be influenced by the V20 release… and not realizing that THAT was an entirely different beast (where those who pre-ordered the book generally had it for a month before it was released to the public.)
I know that I’ve voiced about the “Open Development” process being different between developers, and even though I have been a bit vocal, I hope that those reading at least get to the part where I say that I understand the differences, but I wish that it were a bit different at times, just in case the developer was perhaps unaware or didn’t now if anyone cared that someone would like to see it done differently. An (occasional) artist myself, everyone’s a little different with how they work, and how they take criticism, or suggestions, and I get that, and (try to) respect those differences.
New editions be “What I liked before, but different”? For updating CWoD, I’d prefer to think of it as “What I liked before, but for a setting of Today and Tomorrow.” And as for NWoD?… well, I just don’t know if I have an answer for that one.
All of this time waiting on new PoD proofs and such… have they ever considered just asking (nicely) if they’ll set up a print facility off the back of your house for your convenience? 😉
That’s a great idea! Although, it’d be pretty noisy.
The devs and writers know there are different ways to engage, also the biggest single issue besides personal preference is the amount of time they can devote to online presence vs actual work on the project.
We’ll get you a couple of old Xerox machines, and some binding glue… find a couple of fan-boys. Who NEEDS those other folks making them when your own slave-labor (better known as “interns” back in the White Wolf days) can do it for you! Right? … results and quality not guaranteed. 😉
Another important factor is schedule. We have more flexibility there than we used to, but one of the reasons B&S got extensive open dev and GMC didn’t was that GMC’s release date was earlier.
The problem is that not all of us thought it would be a preorder…
But I wasn’t expecting to get my copy considerably after my friends who didn’t back the kickstarter and just waited for a copy coming out on DTRPG.
I understand we’re getting nice shiny rewards, and I’m totally excited for that stuff – and I’m also excited to be getting my premium copy too. But I’m more than a little let down that I’m having to wait so much longer to have a book to play with – after all, the reason I buy books is to use them to play games and tell stories.
I think people (myself included) have made mistakes about what exactly has been offered with the kickstarter, and it’s fair to rebuff those – but at the end of the day, if people are enthused enough to give extra money in order to get more from the game, because they value the game and the company that much… to be left as the only guy at our gaming table without a copy stings more than a little.
It’d just be nice to see some recognition of that.
I see what you mean. But we do get that. The special rewards ARE the recognition. I backed therefore I get. An awesome white howler tribebook. Is what I get. Without us backers the book wouldn’t even exist. It’s not just a reward. It’s free. It’s a thank you. It’s recognition.
Sure. I wish I had my book. I feel your pain. But that’s just a reality of KS. You pay… And then you wait. A lot. Just think of the envy of those people around the table when you show them how much more awesome your copy is. 🙂
I understand where you’re coming from and how things being done as they have has not been how you wanted. Mummy: the Curse was, I think, caught on a cusp between our early experiments with Kickstarter and our announced PDF/PoD intentions and so has suffered a few rough edges in the total release. That’s my fault, and I do apologize if how things have been handled has screwed up your enjoyment of Mummy.
Due to a slow pulling together of the project as well as delays that were part of how our KS was implemented and sent to press, I was faced with either holding off releasing the PDF/PoD versions to the general public until we had the KS editions shipping, or to go ahead like we did and decouple the KS deliverables from the general release.
As a general policy looking at what we’ve learned from the previous KSs, I really believe that the approach taken is the right one as there are too many pieces to the KS releases that I have limited control over in terms of guaranteed timing. I could force that timing, but as I’ve been posting on our blogs, I don’t think that those methods will create the best results in terms of quality. (I say this as the one-time WW Production Ogre who stamped around and threatened to fire designers if they didn’t get the files to press according to my schedule- I’ve mellowed since then, but also believe strongly that a bad product on time is going to be a bad product forever, but a great product that gets out late also shines for the care taken).
But that means that we really need to emphasize to all you great folks just what our KSs are about, and how they’re different from our standard operating procedure with PDF/PoDs so that you can make your own informed decisions, much like the fan I mention at the beginning of the notes above, as to whether to back the KS and get a voice in the project and actual projects that wouldn’t have occurred (for free) as Yiodan mentions nicely, or to have the immediate satisfaction of getting your copy at the table. Both are valid ways to enjoy and support what we’re doing, just different (Onyx) paths- I just want us all to enjoy the journey.
Any chance of an update on the Exalted 3e project itself? The last few updates have been exclusively about the kickstarter.
Some sort of detail beyond “devs heads down in charms” would be nice too, even if it’s negative. “Had to rework subsystem X, so that’s adding some time” or “Hope to have the first drafts into editing sometime in the next X-Y months, but that’s not a firm prediction”
I’ve been bugging the Devs pretty hard to get things ready for the KS, so we haven’t discussed exactly what is and isn’t done with the book itself for a while. Plus they were pretty sick for about two weeks. More news when I have it.
God-Machine isn’t even out and I made the mistake of telling some of my players about Blood and Smoke. Now I’ve got a bunch of Vampire fans begging me for updates every game session. I’ve got my groups pretty settled into their current games so luckily I’ll be able to spend plenty of time reading through God Machine even after it comes out so I won’t have to rush into a game of it right away.
The Free RPG Day game sounds like it’s going to be fun. I don’t remember anything about “Into the Void”; I should try to look it up prior to the event.
I think it’s very cool that you take the time to be honest and break things down for reader/customers as you outline above. I admire the choice not to try and sugar coat the wait for Kickstarter related goods vs. the PoD materials. You are a good man, Mr. Thomas.
I appreciate both your players’ excitement and your comments- I just don’t think that our beloved hobby is so huge that any of us should be expected or encouraged to be involved in ways that aren’t fun. Creators, fans, whatever- we’re all doing this because it means something special to us.
The Exalted KS sounds pretty exciting. I’ve collected all editions… And never got to playing even once. Anyway, I wanted to ask about the God Machine KS. Richard said above they you guys want to put the GMC on sale this April, but what about the KS? Will it go hand in hand with EX3?
And now, for something completely different, have you considered putting on sale some nice quality prints of the one-page chapter illustrations by Tim Bradstreet for V20 and Steve Prescott for W20? I always ask for prints to be included as KS Rewards, but my magick is certainly not working so far! ^_^
^.^ I’ve talked to Rich about this a few times. I like knowing that I’m not the only one asking about such things. 🙂
I suppose I should have specified that I had talked to Rich about the Poster idea…
There is no God Machine Kickstarter, and likely won’t be one for Strix either.
Please tell me there will be a KS version of EVERY Trinity Continuum book.
(and am I the only one who is excited by “Looking at the schedule to start setting up writing”?)
I’m not going to make you cuhraaazy promises. I am really excited to think about doing KSs for the core Trinity books and have some interesting ideas for how we can do them already!
As Ian said, we’ve decided not to do a KS for God Machine, and currently don’t think we’ll do one for Strix. I posted a couple of thoughts about KSs several weeks ago in either these Monday Meeting Notes or on the Onyx Path website, or both, if you want further details on our thinking there.
I’ll seriously consider the prints idea- currently I’ve shied away from them as the issue becomes one of potential divisiveness. For example, the Bradstreet V20 pieces: do we offer all of them as a unit, do we offer only a few or only one that we pick, or do we offer backers a choice of a print. If the first option, that a whole ‘nother product to be created and our experience at WW suggests that art prints and portfolios appeal to a much smaller part of our book audience. For the second option we then run the risk of pissing off fans because they don’t want that one, they want this one- and again we’re dealing with a subset. And if the third, we have to track the individual choices, which is an additional logistic chore I’m not sure we’re up to right now.
I really wish you could find a high-quality Print-on-Demand poster printer company that meets your needs (if DriveThru can find someone to produce quality PoD playing cards, finding a PoD printer that can do 18″x24″ and 24″x36″ posters shouldn’t be that hard to find.)
That way, you just upload the files and the purchaser can decide on which ones, sizes, and material they want. Heck, at that point you could just upload cover art and other pieces that you liked, or at request, if the files could be found of course.
1. Allow me not to delve too much into this week’s main concern. I think what needed to be said was. I have preferences, but ultimately, Mr. Thomas has the right of it. The end goal is quality product, and that’s what matters.
2. On a wholly unrelated topic, I had a question regarding Grand Mascarades. I was very much looking forward to attending one such event last year and there wasn’t one. Have any similar events linked to Onyx Path been consideredcin the future? Even if it’s years away.
3. Scion: I can’t help but notice that the Scion update is all about Extras, and there’s nothing about Scion itself. I assume it’s the same as before, but, in case it’s not, is there anything new?
4. Blood and Smoke: In regards to feedback to implementing Strix into V20, both DMs weren’t interested, but, we’re considering starting a Forum or Online (IRC, likely) game to try it.
Thanks,
… You may be interested in this Los Angeles by Night in September on the Queen Mary. 🙂
http://www.labynight2013.com/
As someone in the area or close to it (CA native), I’m really looking forward for that!
That Howl Con that had Phil Brucato as a guest last year was way up in Washington, so I couldn’t make it and it clashed with another convention in the same month.
At least LA by Night isn’t on the same month as Son of Monsterpalooza. Plus it will be a chance to meet White Wolf staff for the first time on my home turf. I wonder if some of the artists will be guests?
oooooh! Nice! I will be looking into that for sure. It’s a long drive from Québec, i’ll probably have to fly there.
Thanks for this Torakhan. May be i’ll see you guys there. 🙂
Yay, Québec!
(Wait, should I have put in some French? Bah, pas grave.)
Salut Olivier!
Ouais, Québec. La ville elle-même! Toi?
Québec la ville aussi. C’est fou internet, des fois c’est grand, des fois c’est petit. 🙂
2. Onyx won’t be throwing our own cons. As some other folks said, CCP is sponsoring LA By Night this year. Onyx folks should be attending, but we don’t know specifics yet. (This came up in the Monday Meeting, actually.)
3. Scion’s going through systems development at the moment, and it’ll be there for a bit.
4. Hm. Strix into v20. I can see it. In Requiem, their deal is “they’re like us, but unlike us.” With Masquerade, of course, there are other things in that niche. But their MO isn’t really covered, so I think they’d fit. I’d use a modified version of the Requiem for Rome backstory.
Thank you for the answers. 🙂
4. I was mainly thinking about the new vision of certain systems. Such as the new vision of humanity and the disciplines. But, I’ll know more about the plan itself once I have the book in my hands. For now, I must admit I don’t have a clear idea of exactly was “Strix” itself stands for and how it affects setting or backstory. But i’ll keep Rome in mind for when I do. 🙂
Oh, okay. The Strix are blood-drinking spirits that corrupt and enslave the Damned. They’re the demon-possessed corpses, the grisly vampires of folklore, contrasted against the Kindred, the sexy and tragic vampires of pop culture. They’re driven by the Beast… some of them claim they are the Beast.
The Strix first appeared in Requiem for Rome, and then The Wicked Dead. They’ve also had cameos in lots of Requiem books since, including the clanbooks and Blood Sorcery. Blood and Smoke gives them more lore, a polished rule set, and 20 examples ready to use as NPCs.
Humanity should port relatively easily between systems. The new vision for Humanity touches the mechanics in two places: what constitutes a breaking point, and the Conditions you get from the Humanity roll. The Conditions (Wanton and so on) should port with minimal effort. The breaking points are intended to be customized, so you could easily use Masquerade’s sins instead, or move the list of example breaking points into Masquerade’s Humanity system.
Disciplines… to port to Masquerade, I’d try to change as little as possible, just tweaking die pools and such. I’d still use v20 physical Disciplines, because of how they touch the combat system.
Nice! I had no idea about the background. I apologize but I longer really follow requiem. My interest in that setting is only just now being rekindled by the revised views of systems brought by the Strix book.
And based on what you just said, I have to agree it would be a shame not to include the Strix themselves now. In which case I concur with your opinion on Rome. I always try to stay as close to the originals as I can when I adapt. Although, this being Mascarade, I would be tempted to include additional backstory tied to either Dark Age, Victorian Age or both in there.
As for systems, I agree as well. That’s the beauty of it. It seems fairly easy to adapt and it would allow long time players of Mascarade to experience it all anew. Which implies I would likely try Strix’s version of the physical disciplines as well, for the novelty. But, that will depend on what I read once the book is in my hands 🙂
However, now that brings up a question. If you don’t mind me asking.
Why bring all those new systems in a book about the Strix? Are they only meant for characters that are Strix-possessed?
@Yiodan- I’m going to jump in here on the high level, why do this with this sort of book question- I’ll let Rose get into the crunchy stuff. We started the Chronicle books idea with two goals: 1) to create a consistent background story for the game line that players could choose to adopt in whole or cherry-pick parts of- trying to get the best of having both a strong setting bg and a tool-box for those who like one or the other approaches. And 2) to revise the current game so as to tweak both the setting and the rules with years of experience with the game line to draw on. Effectively, a new edition, but without forcing one on everybody- once again in the spirit of providing fun for both the consistent and tool box approaches. Once God Machine and Strix are available, you’ll have to tell us how the close to the mark we hit.
Hi again, Yiodan. For some reason, I can’t reply directly to your post.
The new systems, as well as the updated core setting and example domains, are designed to provide a sort of all-in-one Vampire kit. So it comes packed with the basics you need for a vampire game, like character creation and powers, but also gives you antagonists (there are around 20 Strix in the book) and a setting. It’s Requiem, but a Requiem that’s been revised for longtime players and made more accessible for new ones.
You can use the book either as that all-in-one kit, or as a box of parts for your Vampire game. I’m excited to hear about people using parts of it with v20, since that project’s one of the other highlights of my career.
Thanks for the answers, I understand much better now.
I gotta say it’s very motivating to know that both of you are interested. I’ll just have to make this happen now. I’ll buy the book on release and let you know how it turns out. It’s probably going to have to be online sessions, so it’s going to be very easy to keep track and give good feed-back. I also remember Richt was interested in online gaming in general, so, it’ll be a good opportunity to give feed-back on that as well.
Well for the CWoD for me its a chance to see something I love, make it updated (certain things IRL fit great into the meta plots; some don’t. Sometimes, the writers have a great take on something I did not consider and it changes my perspective.). Sometimes this also includes cleaning up a presentation of a Guild (/nudge nudge *cough*wraith*cough*) or possibly even clearly up a weird niche they filled. I can even see other writers take a new perspective on aspects of various settings.
Plus I get to see some system cleanup (like not having a bigger die pool also increase chance of a botch, etc).
Thanks for your thoughts, and Wraith? What’s that? 😉
As usual, I am enthused about the list of goodies that are coming down the pipeline. 😀
I bit the bubble and ordered a hardcopy version of Mummy: the Curse this weekend. First hardcopy book I’ve ordered from DTRPG, before it was only ever PDFs.
Great that you’re giving them a try! Let us know what you think- we and DriveThru don’t expect the quality to be a complete match to traditionally printed books, yet, but the PoD quality just keeps improving and what they are capable of is easily at the level of quality that we had when WW was first starting out and the regular printers we used then.
Hah, we’re so spoiled by the Internet.
F5 F5 F5 F5
Personally I feel at times that some of the posters that have substantially more time basically beat down generally well received material in the open development process via quantity of large posts that others don’t have the time to respond to. 2 posters may post 20 times, while 10 others only post once, etc. I feel a few have hindered the move towards open development in a manner closer to cyber bullying of the authors and any who happen to disagree… I wouldn’t mind if you dropped open development altogether and let those authors do what they do best.
I have not received that feedback from our folks that have posted their project bits. Sure, there is a bit of the standard feeling you get when something you think is cool isn’t received well, but at this point we’re all internet veterans (guh!) and know that one negative comment seems to blow away a dozen positive. And we’re also aware of that ratio of posting you mention- our guys are open to changes, but don’t tend to change things just because a bunch of posts want it so. Which honestly, causes some posters to think we aren’t listening, unfortunately. And then there are some who mistakenly expect that we’re going to make changes in a sort of “you say it, we’ll do it” mode- which was never what Open Dev was about. It is about open discussion of the project and the devs and writers (and artists and designers for when we’re posting those elements) aren’t obligated to use any of the ideas the community posts. But we think that the good aspects- the openness, the chance to have immediate feedback on ideas, those ideas posted that are awesome and add to the intent of the work, even catching text errors- far outweigh the negatives.
I know you do not want to give an ETA on exalted KS, but could you give a rough list of what remains to be done before EX3 KS goes online?
Literally as posted: “Voice-overs came in mid last week, Ian is working on the KS video. I’m putting in the Reward Tiers all wordified, and the main text and we’ll combine these efforts with a KS preview for the dev team. From there we’ll submit. ”
So Ian is creating the KS video. I’m cleaning up the main text and the Rewards. We’ll combine them and send the proposed page to the team. Tweak as per comments. Send to KS.
Shame to hear about GMC, but I’m glad Exalted is doing well. Have you got any stretch goals lined up for the KS?
Yes, we do.
While I personally am planning on picking up GMC the moment it is released, I’d like to know, do you intend to release the free rules segment simultaneously, or will there be a delay? I’m planning on using it to sell GMC and Strix to some people.
Just looked at the cover, so we’re real close- we’re aiming for both at the same time-
God Machine has strong potential I believe.
Out here in L.A. there is a whole swath of gamers who are into a new generation of RPG’s like Fate Core, Fiasco, Dungeon World, many refer to them as indie RPG’s or story games (all qualify stuff mind you). And the general vibe I get from them concerning WOD games is “that was cool then, but we’ve moved on”. Yet, Dave Hill playtested some rules from God Machine and Blood and Smoke for us and word bubbled out, in SoCal gaming circles, that there are some really interesting things in store with these books. I think God Machine and Blood and Smoke is going to prompt a second look at WOD games from those gamers. I’m sure they’ll be pleasently surprised.
We’re working giving those gamers a chance to play the material from God Machine, Blood and Smoke and the new Mummy, which I think it’s different approach to a WOD game is kinda overlooked. We’re running games based on God Machine and Mummy the Curse at Strategicon in May as well as at Free RPG Day at our local game store. It’s pretty exciting because it seems to me that this trio of games is Onyx hitting it’s stride and making a statement on where it wants to go with the new World of Darkness games.
Finally, I saw the three ads in the back of the Mummy POD, for God Machine, Blood and Smoke and a new untitled game (Demon?). They look great. It would be cool if you could post those images on your Onyx Facebook page, I think they would get shared (social media viral marketing yada yada). Just a thought.
All good stuff, keep it up ya’ll.
Sounds like your request/idea about the images was heard… at least on Facebook.
First comment: those ads ARE pretty badass.
Second comment: why isn’t there an obvious link to the Onyx Path facebook on the Onyx Path website? It’s not like googling it was a big effort, but I’m still a bit confused. And while I’m on the subject, why isn’t there a link to the Demon blog in the WW Blogs scroll-down menu?
There normally are (under the “Social” section at the bottom) but we’ve deactivated a number of our plugins for the moment due to bandwidth issues with our host.
I don’t really want “what I like before, but different” so much as “what I liked before, but more.” I’ll explain further. Warning, horrendous grammar incoming.
More Better: Some systems worked on paper, but never really worked at the table. There are gigantic forum threads devoted to each of these systems, so I won’t try to think of examples. When they don’t work quite right, I’d like them to be tweaked or scrapped for something better. The Mage20 Facebook page posted an excellent example of doing this right with focus rules this week.
More Updated: The world changes, and organizations change with them. How have smart phones influenced the Virtual Adepts? How do the Children of Gaia feel about India’s overpopulation issues? What is the Cult of Ecstasy doing about the drug wars in South America? Tradition/tribe books are my favorite part of the WoD, so I would love to see them redone.
erm…did I miss something…when does the V20 Anarchs Unbound kickstarter begin??? Have I missed it???
Not for a while- its cool.
I just wanted to express my support of Onyx Path and the KS projects you did.
The internet spoils people by making everything available right NOW – so there is this demand that with RPG products it should be the same.
BUT as a WoD gamer and collector for nearly 10 years it is my strong opinion that good things need time and the uncertainties of life take its toll on road maps and target dates.
So please be ensured that the silent majority is willing to wait a bit for high quality products.
Regards
Ferdinand
PS:
Something completely different –
You should think about using kickstarter to find out if fringe products will find a large enough audience.
like:
“In spring 2015 we have free ressources for a book of about 150 pg. Let’s do a KS now if enought people back ‘MtA City book Melbourne'”
If you get enough money do it – if not nothing bad happened !
So we customers can influence a bit the books you provide for us and you have certain sales numbers.
Thanks- I think we have had our expectations changed by the much more immediate post/reaction time we get via our social media in particular. Which is great- I love having an essentially immediate chat with somebody half way around the world just because I responded to their FB comment. But some things do take time to get right.
As for the fringe project idea- I do want to try that experiment, but I keep having these big projects to KS, and there are only so many KSs I can physically do- they’re exhausting, seriously. Until you run one as the creator, there’s no way to really get across the intensity- talk about the burning need for immediate responses! I do what I can to be as fast as I can be- and I’m no way great at it- and it is still almost a 24/7 gig for a month. So, hopefully we’ll get a chance to try some projects like you mention (although I should point out, I haven’t felt that any of our previous KSs were definitely going to succeed until we were well past the goal amount- so they were experimental and fringe-ish to me).
Here’s a question!
How do you folks feel about me referring to you collectively as “fans” in these posts? Is that how you consider yourself in terms of WW, or the individual game lines, or even of Onyx Path (he asks sheepishly)? Are you offended because I’m assuming you are something you’re not? Are you even more offended because my calling you a fan is an attempt to rope you into a status that allows me to market to you in a feverishly greedy attempt to extort more money from you?
Some similar questions: does it bother you if I call one of our projects a “product”? Is it OK to call something that exists as a PDF as well as a PoD a book? Is it OK to call an RPG project a game if it’s one part, like a book, of the game-line?
I ask because this has come up recently, but has been on my mind as I write these weekly posts, and respond to FB and KS comments. For example, I really try to avoid user the word “consumer” when referring to all of you out there, because that, to me, seems to be inappropriate for so many of you who don’t just consume an RPG like popcorn, you engage and create with it. Let other industries have consumers, I like to think that most folks into RPGs are fans. Is that wrong?
I think it is interesting that you’re thinking about this. 🙂
I think that many gamers have a bit more of a personal relationship with OPP than we might with many other companies that we deal with, primarily because of the level of interaction you and your team have with us. I think some terms, like “consumers” or “product”, have a ‘feel’ that is a bit colder and more corporate then might be ideal for that sort of relationship, even if they are quite accurate. I would never say I’m *bothered* by such words, just that they feel a bit more impersonal, when your connection to your fans is a strength that you’re trying to capitalize on.
“Fans”, I think, is definitely okay. 🙂
Thanks, Sean- That’s certainly what we’re trying to do with Onyx Path. There’s a great advantage to being the small company that can have real dialogues with their, dare I say it, fans.
I think I have less problems with “products” when we’re talking a range of things- like when I talk about PDFs, and PoDs, and ePubs, and Deluxes for W20- than when calling a thing we created a “product” singular. But context there is important.
Well, I’m certainly a fan of Classic World of Darkness, especially Changeling: The Dreaming. I’m a big fan of what Onyx Path has been doing with cWoD so far. So yeah, I don’t mind being called a fan at all!
Fans is a fine thing to call is. 🙂
And I think you only need make the distinction between PDF, standard and deluxe pod. A product is a product.
I prefer the more general “reader” because it is, undeniably, what I am at the time I am reading your words, regardless of their location or my interest in the project itself.
I always assumed fan was short for fanatic; I’ve made an effort to avoid referring myself as a fan lately as I try to espouse a more moderate approach to just about everything. That said, I’m certainly not offended to be referred to as a fan, it’s a common phrase.
I think that fan is what I am, so I have absolutely no qualms with it. Product is also fine by me, it is what it is. But that could be because of my own corporate background.
I certainly agree that the term consumers has a wrong tone to it, I think it’s a good idea to avoid it. It creates a gap between us and you. Personally, it would make me feel like a number amongst a bunch of sales statistics.
I have no problems about PDFs being called books. That’s essentially what they are, they are just virtual instead of printed.
I’m certainly a fan; my friends would call themselves the same thing. I prefer fans to ‘consumer’ personally. Your average housewife doesn’t follow Kenmore’s blogs just because they own their appliances – a gamer follows a particular company’s blogs while owning their products.
And yes, they’re products. Even if they were just data, they’re products — video games are increasingly digital downloads, and few people would argue those weren’t products!
So basically, I’m seeing here and on Onyx Path’s Facebook page that you folks aren’t all that worried about how I, and by extension Onyx Path, are phrasing things. (Grammar aside). We all have some personal preferences, but nothing teeth-gnashing, and it really boils down to the context- what are we actually talking about and how we are saying it, ie: with respect- rather than picking apart the individual word. Makes sense to me- thanks for the input!
I would agree with that last sentiment.
I believe that we are all fans (those with some sort of invest interest in a property), but a consumer is someone who uses a product actively. As important as a fan is to a property, consumers are the ones utilizing (and hopefully purchasing) the product.
So, you can have a consumer who doesn’t care where the thing comes from, but uses it because it works, and fans who care greatly about a property, but don’t actually use, or support the product financially. OPP and WW really rely on their Fans to be Consumers (someone who loves WoD/W:tA/Trinity, but who also buys the products and uses them too.)
However, because of how you and your teams respond to the interested parties of Fan/Consumers, I think that the words you’ve used are fine because the intended meaning you imply are shown through your actions… You are not just a company who produces a product without coldly and only change directions due to market conditions, but you’ve shown interest in our thoughts and interests as well. In some ways, its like having a built-in study group and survey without having to pay a group to do that for you.;-)
So, yeah… I don’t necessarily mind the terms Fans, Consumers, Products, or whatnot, so long as it isn’t purposefully meant to throw our “roles” in all of this in our face somehow (or used incorrectly somehow. But, they are proper terms, even if some folks wish we were all called Family through our mostly mutual interest. 🙂
Just out of interest, why are the PoD and Pdfs released at the same time?
Personally, I always hold out on buying things straight away from drivethru as I prefer to have a print+pdf copy (and buying joint is usually better to do financially), and there are inevitable typos etc that are spotted very quickly by the consumer base and updated in the pdf copy (and therefore subsequent printings), which obviously would still be in the printed book, had I ordered it when first released.
Wouldn’t it be better to release the pdf and then wait x time and release the printed version?
Not OPP, obviously, but I can think of two reasons:
A) Going back and doing that editing costs time, obviously a fairly scarce resource. I’m sure everyone involved would like a perfect book, but feasibility can vary.
B) If they only put the PDF option up on DTRPG at first, it might cannibalize sales of the POD copy. Even if its technically possible to put up the option for POD and PDF+POD combo up early and have DTRPG hold on to the orders until the POD and Lightning Source are ready to ship, people might not be happy with getting their physical product potentially quite some time after ordering it.
Well, we did do that for awhile, and in fact just did that with the PDFs of the Mummy: The Curse SAS and Player’s Book, and the problem is that we get a lot- a lot- of complaints from folks who want to get the PDF+PoD combo. They feel stuck with waiting and not getting the PDF right when it comes out, or getting the PDF twice. DTRPG is not set up to “credit” anybody if they buy the PDF and later want to upgrade to the combo, and such an effort after the fact would be pretty time consuming, so we’ve adopted the standard operating procedure of getting the PDFs and PoDs up together.
On RPG.net, I just stumbled across a post explaining what the status bars mean on the Onyx Path schedule page. I would strongly suggest that you add that explanation to the schedule page itself, so that people, like me, stop wondering what exactly the status bars mean.