Quick something for the weekend:
A couple of you noticed the tweak to Backgrounds we’ve made for Werewolf 20. Essentially, it always seemed a little odd to us that no Get of Fenris could ever have a Contact: yes, it’s socially discouraged, but it’s not categorically impossible, and it feels weird to say that no Get ever had a loose Contact. Still, preferring Allies over Contacts is very true to the tribe’s character.
Here’s the sidebar that explains the difference, right from the drafts.
Discouraged and Restricted Backgrounds
Some tribes have restrictions on which Backgrounds a character can take at character creation. These restrictions fall into two categories: discouraged Backgrounds — like Contacts and Resources for the Wendigo, or Mentor for the Glass Walkers — and restricted Backgrounds, like Ancestors and Pure Breed for Glass Walkers, or the Silver Fangs’ required purchase of three dots of Pure Breed. Usually, discouraged Backgrounds are social in nature and restricted Backgrounds are supernatural.
Discouraged Backgrounds are essentially very rare: while most Bone Gnawers start with no Resources, anyone who buys a ticket can win the lottery. Discouraged Backgrounds can be purchased with freebie points at character creation, though the Storyteller is within rights to request that they not be purchased, or limited to only a dot or two per character. Some groups may prefer to waive these restrictions entirely, or keep them in place on a tribe-by-tribe basis to fit their own take on the tribe — if the Wendigo have less of an isolationist streak it makes sense to remove their restrictions entirely, but the same group may still consider a rich Bone Gnawer to be an outlier.
Restricted Backgrounds have a closer tie to the character of a tribe — a Bone Gnawer with Pure Breed is going to be the focus of a lot of attention from the Garou Nation. (If none of his ancestors had it, where did it come from?) With that in mind, the Storyteller may allow characters to purchase restricted Backgrounds with freebie points (or a Silver Fang to start with less than three dots of Pure Breed), but only after talking it through with the players and making sure that everyone appreciates the impact such a choice will have. The story of the first Glass Walker to contact her Ancestors, or the first Bone Gnawer with Pure Breed is an excellent hook to hang a chronicle on.
Your thoughts? I love it myself, but admittedly I am not the control freak of a Storyteller I used to be.
Excellent! I’m a big fan of the warcry of D&D 3e: “options, not restrictions.” Discouraged and Restricted Backgrounds offer cool options to hang a story off of rather than just arbitrarily saying “no, your Wendigo doesn’t know anyone.” Well done.
Discouraged Backgrounds are a good idea for logical backgrounds (Resourses, Contacts, Allies…) be purchased by freebie. In fact, nothing prevents a Bone Gnawer money later. But, having Pure Breed? I consider this as a distortion, because the restrictions are things that give shape to that tribe. Or, maybe, the Restricted ones should be purchased only by experience traits and good roleplaying.
I think it’s a much better option than simply waving away background restrictions. I’d also recommend Discouraged backgrounds cost twice as many freebie points as normal (on top of the GM permission bit). I don’t know if you plan on doing the “backgrounds cost xp” route like a lot of other WW games, but if so, I’d have that cost double as well.
I agree that I’d like to see an additional cost to them so that there’s some sort of mechanical “extra” to having to take something that’s not in line with your Tribe (hey, it took extra effort/something to get that thing others can’t/don’t want you to get, and keep it in the face of the others in your Tribe who look down on you for breaking taboo) if not a mechanical social disadvantage within your tribe for having them.
I would be all for discouraged backgrounds to cost twice their normal cost per dot.
I suppose adding it in as another “ST Option” might not be bad either, but that begins to make quite a few “options” and the mechanics start to get a bit soft, but it wouldn’t be the worse idea either.
I’m against adding any extra costs, because that just adds to the Freebie confusion some people have during character creation. And it’s easier for STs to add theiur own rules than to just start waiving things built into the game.
I like the idea of having a set of guidelines that say “yes, you can, but.” But not with a price tag included.
I’m also against extra cost because, with the possible exception of resources for bone gnawers and wendigo, it’s not actually any harder for a given garou to acquire these things. It’s just socially discouraged and therefore pretty uncommon. The price comes in other ways that should be played out by the storyteller.
Indeed, no to extra costs. I would also add on the section that creating a character with a restricted background (such as a rich bone gnawers) will make the game loose a little of it’s intended flavour for that tribe, so your milleage may vary. Because several players will see the text as written as an excuse to persuade their STs to allow ‘special snowflake’ characters. We have enough of those already. A ‘Buyer Beware’ would come nicely here too.
@Bernardo – My gut feeling is that the more you build up the idea that some Backgrounds are “forbidden,” the more desirable those Backgrounds will be for Special Snowflakes.
Besides, the entire point of the new “discouraged” category of Backgrounds is to allow characters to use them anyway. If no one ever makes a rich Bone Gnawer character, then the change is pointless.
I think trying to make rules to discourage “special snowflakes” is a fools’ errand. You can cut off everything that would appeal to that player-type, but you’ll be left with one boring-ass game. There’s a proverb here about noses and spite and cutting.
I think it’s ultimately up to the storyteller to identify players who are trying to convert dots on paper into “uniqueness” and either indulge them or redirect them as they see fit. Trying to get the rules to do it for you is just not going to work, and you’re going to go prematurely grey trying.
I would say “discouraged” background requires freebie points, and either something like “dark secret”, or a flaw similar to the shadow lords one… essentially if you fail at something the tribal elders blame your “unhealthy” activities.
“Restricted” backgrounds should require spending a merit similar to the merit for Silent Striders to have Ancestors. And they should also give some sort of status or renown boost. (Or a flaw for silver fangs to allow less than 3 of pure breed… but also makes them the laughing stock of the tribe).
A thousand times yes. I’m all for roleplaying where you make suggestions to players about whats appropriate rather than hard mechanics. Anything that brings us closer to a world of “you can do what you want in character creation, just don’t be a jerk about it,” is okay with me.
+ 1
I like it, though I admit I would probably never let my players pick one of the Restricted ones. I see too many Werewolf games where everyone wants to be the one that breaks the rules. (Too many mixed-Fera games too, but that’s not addressed here).
My players in high school ran a few successful mixed Fera games. That being said, it was mostly 3 Garou and a Corax as a scout. When it turns into Wendigo and and the SuperFriends, without thought to the implications of a Nagah running around with a Kitsune and a Mokolé, you’re right.
Mixed fera games can definitely work, you just have to do some extra work on your premise. It’s pretty much the only way the fera can work, since trying to organize an all-bear or all-snake game just won’t interest most players. (I did have a few pretty successful sessions of an all-raven game once…)
My favorite premise revolves around the fact that the beast courts *are* a thing, and it’s not terribly far-fetched for a given fera to look at them, and get a bug up his ass to do the same thing on a small scale. One person with a vision can make things work for a limited time and on a small scale that would never happen on their own. Then it’s just up to the storyteller to introduce all the problems that beset that sort of arrangement (ie the reasons this doesn’t happen often) and generally try to tear them apart. It can be fun times if done right.
I can only agree wholeheartedly. Mixed-Fera can work in the DM is willing to make it it happen. It’s actually almost the only viable option considerign most of them are such loners or can’t stand their own breed. Unless you’re doing it table top with 1-3 players and a DM that is.
Personally, I once made a LARP setting where the Garou had lost the war of rage and the Fera all made it our alive. We had the Camazots, Grondr and Apis along for the ride. The Western Fera had taken quite a few hints from the Hengeyokai and worked together to protect caerns and such.
I’ve had a very similar idea knocking around in my head for the past while so I’m obviously quite pleased to see this 🙂 I’m with the person above who said they would still keep Restricted backgrounds out of play, though. A Strider still can’t have Ancestors, it’s part of who she is, but she can make a little money from courier work so a dot or two of Resources would make sense.
Pure breed & ancestors are imo among those things in WW which really aren’t something you can just “choose” because they very much define the tribes.
And yet the first Silent Strider to contact her Ancestors already showed up in TB:SS Revised.
And abominations were in 1st ed
I still won’t allow them in my games unless it’s a plot point. you’re free to allow them run willy-nilly in yours.
And that’s what restricted should mean (in my mind) -restricted- ;Not “I want this thingy in order to be the ‘snowflake’ in my group and as it’s not denied in the rules its allowed”.
Hence “you can’t just choose” them like you can for example to put three points in appearance trait or for athletics when making a character. I know its very popular these days to not flat out deny anything in the rules from players (rule wise) but I like it when at times its just spelled out when something should be restricted by ST.
A very good example of “not denying anything and therefore what’s not restricted or denied is OK” is From D&D 3.5 (it has loads, easy to pick) where in example we find a Monk-class who can JUMP 100ft in to the air and several other prestige classes that could kill a planet with a thrown rock… I’ve had both examples in my games and the worst part was that by the rules they were perfectly legit.
d&d isn’t ST-system but you get my point don’t you?
Abominations got playable rules in the Wild West Companion, which came out a year before Revised. I actually kinda hope the Cáscara make it into W20’s Antagonist section.
I’m curious: do you find the wording of “The Storyteller may allow the player to purchase restricted Backgrounds” insufficiently harsh? I had assumed it was fairly obvious that this is “with permission only.”
I think it’s fine as-is. I think if a storyteller can’t bring themselves to forbid their players anything, even things that don’t make sense, they basically get the game they deserve. And maybe that’s what they prefer. Either way, nobody’s business but theirs.
How about:
“Even though some backgrounds are still restricted by the given rules here, a Storyteller may still decide when it’s appropriate to allow a character to purchase a restricted background if she feels it fits the setting of her chronicle.”
I love it. The distinction is a great one. Silent Striders are cursed, so it makes sense none of them have Ancestors. And like you said, any Bone Gnawer can buy a lottery ticket. or make a Fetish debit card, or sling Spirit-Awakened marijuana on the street. As for Silver Fangs, Pure Breed being restricted makes perfect sense, even without supernatural backing. Any Garou can apply, but only the best are accepted.
Love it, this also allows characters to add their own flavour to their stats. What if the Bone Gnawer didn’t win at lottery, but was all ready rich yet marxists and felt Bone Gnawers fit his wordlview better?
Or the Get with contacts stat as a ruthless businessman’s son?
In this case, I believe that the restriction of contacts by Fenrir is due to creation as Garou, not something you’re born with it. Something like a tribal requirement, no?
I’d possibly try to distinguish the mecanics a bit more. Both essentially say: You can’t, but if the ST is okay with it you can buy it with freebee points. I’d suggest going with:
Discouraged: Storyteller’s approval and can be bought with freebe points.
Restricted: Requires troupe and ST’s approval, then can be bought normally.
The main idea is that things bought with freebe points (to me anyway) are things that are added as an after thoughts, tacked on because there were points lefts, included as bursts of sudden inspiration or ways to compensate and get a stats to a level I really wanted and couldn’t afford. Where as things bought withotu freebe points are the focus of the character, the things that define it.
(With Freebe point) Discouraged ones should be the ones that you can’t get a lot of focus on, you usally have a lot of things to buy with freebe points, so, if you end up with a lot of points in one of those then it was a serious choice. Most of the time, they’ll end up in the lower tier, 1-3. And I also agree with the double cost someone mentioned, meaning it costs you 2-6 freebes getting there. They’re also not central to your character, they’re things that happened (I found a winning ticket).
(Without freebe points): Restricted are things you normally simply cannot have, ever, like pure breed for a Bone Gnawer. It’s not something you tacked on later because you had freebe points left, it’s something that’s going to be extremely central to your character and quite likely to your entire chronicle. Quite possibly, it’s going to be the first thing you’ll mark on your sheet. And since it’s so much story driven and important, the ST will probably be the one telling you how high to put it anyway (I’m assuming 1 on pretty much all the cases I can think of). They’re not after thoughts, they’re the entire concept of the character. And therefore I see them as being buyable without freebe point. As long as the troupe and ST is okay with the concept your proposing.
As I said. Discouraged ones could be purchased by freebrie.
And Restricted Backgrounds just with experience.
Fair enough?
And roleplaying, of course.
And RP of course. However, wouldn’t that preclude the possibility of starting with it? (Which is fine, it makes it so that it can only happen in game with a solid story to explain it first).
I love this arrangement. It’s quite a bit akin to what i’ve been enforcing in my games for a while now, so i cannot give it enough thumbs up 🙂
Maybe instead of Discouraged, refer to them as ‘Limited’ or ‘Uncommon’ and cap them at max of 2 or 3 dots. That way it has some sort of limit without taking them away totally, and to be honest I am not thrilled with the term Discouraged
Part of me likes the idea of caps too, but then why is there a mechanical cap? (I’m sorry, you can’t have more contacts because, uh… just because.)
As for “Discouraged”, do you have any other suggestions?
What about “Taboo”, or “Uncommon”, or “Wack”? 😉 (Oh, man. You’re that rich ‘Gnawer? Man, that’s wack!” *L*)
I really like this a lot. Discouraged is a good name (most of them are socially discouraged by your tribemates). I’m really glad that the social Background restrictions have been loosened, and explained as things that are either unlikely *or* socially taboo in the tribe’s culture.
But if anything I would make the supernaturally restricted Backgrounds more distinct from the merely discouraged ones. Like others have said, make them purchasable at character creation with any type of points, but only with express troupe and ST approval, and cost 2x the points or else require some kind of merit. Silent Striders Revised has an optional 5 pt. merit that lets you purchase Ancestors at character creation (and also gives 3 temporary renown).
Since we’re talking about backgrounds, could you work on making a more clear background that represents Spirit Allies and what they can do for you. There are Spirit Familiars, and Numen, and just the Allies Background, but no just retainers in the Revised Books at least.
The stories and material talk about garou having spiritual allies, and Spirits who just hang out with them often as well. If you could combine Numen, Spirit Familiar, create some sort of “Spirit Ally” Background that would be awesome. The flavor of Numen being from birth, and Spirit Familiar beings something you build through your life could both be represented in a new and revised catch all “Spirit Ally” background I think if it’s done right.
I like this a lot for the most part. I would, however suggest that restricted backgrounds only be made available via merits, with ST approval (if at all). 2nd Revised already implemented this a little. For example, the Silent Strider clan book offered a merit for Striders to gain Ancestors. By using the Merit system players could also be given a drawback to balance the advantage other members of their tribe don’t have. If you do go via the Merit system I’d delete the option to buy restricted backgrounds altogether and instead reference the ability to buy a merit instead.
Just my thoughts.
Well, I’m happy with this. On the forums I advocated for a more middle ground approach, simply because I didn’t think this was going to go over. I’m glad to see more people on the “options not restrictions” side of things.
I’d be happy with it as is, though Yiodan has a point about the fact that they have the same basic mechanics. As is, the only difference is the default assumption of allowance: Discouraged is assumed to be allowed unless the ST denies it, while Restricted is assumed to be off limits unless the ST allows it. If they stay mechanically identical it seems the passage could be simplified to reflect that. On the other hand, a minor tweak that makes them a bit more distinct is also a decent idea of a viable option gets worked out.
+1
I do like the idea.. It never made sense to me why a Bone Gnawer or a Wendigo couldn’t have resources.. of Get Contacts.. just seemed tacked on because you felt Tribal Weaknesses weren’t stringent enough. Always felt like a plot hammer trying to drive the point the Garou weren’t part of Human Society anymore. Because what are Red Talons supposed to spend their Background points on then?
Honestly.. the only backgrounds that should have any restrictions are the Supernatural ones, Pure Breed and Ancestors..
Although I am REALLY hoping for an over haul of Pure Breed so it makes more sense. If a Pure Breed 5 Silver Fang cub decides to shuck it all and joins the Bone Gnawers.. he’s still got Pure Breed 5.. his ancestors were still heroes.. why should he lose it just because the Tribe supposedly doesn’t have it? And what.. there are no Bone Gnawer heroes to be descended from or Glass Walker?
I think maybe the inclusion of a merit to allow you to buy restricted merits at creation might work.. because you can always earn back grounds through role play and XP, regardless of the rules.
Just returned from 4-day WtA-Larp. I find this additional information nice, but I think it should add a line:
“Certain Background restrictions can be bypassed with certain Merits.”
Also it should read:
“Weather a certain background is restricted or discouraged is listed with…
… the tribe descriptions (page XX to XX).”
or
… the background descriptions (page xx to xx).”
Also, I would make sense to make other backgrounds also a discouraged option, like a non-Uktena Ahroun purchasing “Spirit Network” or something.
Also, if included in W20 the Wyrm-, Wyld-, Weaver-Tainted Backgrounds would need some mechanical revision…
Obviously the “Certain Background restrictions can be bypassed with certain Merits.” is for those restrictions that already have merits in the TBs to bypass them. These merits should be included in W20, obviously.
I find it okay, that the discouraged backgrounds are limited to be bought by freebies, on the other hand, buying backgrounds with freebies always seemed like the best investment, so discouraged backgrounds might be appropriate for double cost, as an option, too.
Part of me says those Backgrounds were restricted for a reason. If a Strider can contact her Ancestors, then the Tribe starts to lose some of its tragedy. What on earth IS a Pure Bred Glass Walker? A rich Bone Gnawer seems to be far from the point. You can go on.
All that said, it’s really not my place, or anybody’s place, to tell somebody how to run their game. Like was said, there can be logical reasons to get around a lot of the restrictions. A BG can win the lottery. Maybe the Wendigo’s family runs a casino (there’s probably some even nice story hooks there). Personally, I’d probably go with gaining the disallowed Backgrounds through experience points and have them be restricted just at character generation. A Strider’s quest to gain Ancestors could be, and probably is, the source for a great chronicle.
To throw it out there, If I remember correctly, to get Ancestors a Strider had to take a Merit (and so did the Bone Gnawers if they wanted a little bit of Resources), though I may be mixing up my Revised and 2E Tribebooks. Maybe a catch-all Merit?
No, you’re on the right path–in Revised, Striders could take a merit that gave them access to Ancestors (but this was because of Metaplot), and Bone Gnawers had a panhandling skill/roll to get cash if they needed it.
I like the idea, its more flexible. With the caveat some restrictions ( SS ancestor limit seem much more thematically important that other, the GW mentor restriction for example)
Don’t have much to add, other than I think this is a really cool idea.
I’m a firm believer that if your meat and milk is magic and spirit stuff, the will lights the way. After reading Past Lives, and seeing how a character might acquire an Ancestor Spirit of their own, even if they’re a tribe that does not naturally get them, I’m of the opinion that there is no sacred background. No sacred background, at least, that isn’t accessible by STORY and ROLEPLAYING. I am fully in favor of backgrounds that, regardless of events, player characters just can’t seem to close the deal on.
Take any tribe where Pure Breed is restricted or verboten. Why can’t they have it? Because they’re mutts. They’re indiscriminate. The tribe does not have a picturesque example of what a member of their tribe is SUPPOSED to look like. But Pure Breed is a magic-social trait as much as it is a hereditary one. I argue, no tribe and no player character is incapable of having Pure Breed, because Pure Breed is as much a reflection of your soul as it is your heritage.
A Pure Breed Bone Gnawer, 5 dots, would likely be an exemplary member of his tribe. Would he ‘look’ like a Bone Gnawer? Bone Gnawers aren’t an ethnic group. They’re a distinct flavor. A spiritual heritage. I argue, an Exemplary Bone Gnawer should be able to buy Pure Breed, for his Pure Breed is not based on heritage. His Pure Breed is based on character and will, as his tribe emphasizes merit and virtue. If he exemplifies the characteristics of what makes a model Bone Gnawer, I see no difference between a Garou who can raise this among their own people, and a Rokea who raises their Appearance by more experience transforming and hanging out among humans. A Garou who sees a Bone Gnawer with 5 ‘virtual Pure Breed’ would simply see a larger than life example of the tribe, and be compelled to be cowed to their charisma.
Now, when it comes to things that go against the grain of the tribe? Like a rich Bone Gnawer, or a litigious and duplicitous Get. I’m afraid I take influence from what I read in Werewolf: the Wild West. Examples of Bone Gnawers who occasionally strike at rich and fortune, and mirculously always seem to lose it all. A Bone Gnawer who ends rich in a Werewolf game should be a Bone Gnawer who had a very lenient to negligent Storyteller. That Gnawer needs some miraculous Gaia-given way of returning to hand to mouth. Maybe being put in a position where they have to give up everything to preserve something important. A human can swim and a human can fly a plane, but they aren’t meant to live in those environments. Same for the tribes and acting against their niches.