For those that missed Gen Con, Onyx Path announced that I was the line developer for Vampire: The Masquerade 4th Edition. This has led to a lot of… spirited… discussion online, and Rich has since posted what we mentioned at the show. We didn’t give much information at the time, because right now I’m working with my team to hammer things out — it’s still pretty early in the design process. However, Rich and I agreed that we wanted to let all of you know despite that, because I think open development made the V20 products I worked on better, and I’d like to get some community feedback as early as possible. I also saw how Justin Achilli and Matt McElroy got a lot of mileage out of early brainstorming for the Anarchs Unbound and Ghouls books, and I think a version of those could work for Vampire.
However, I have to approach this differently than I have before. I can’t just toss documents up and let people tear them apart (although I may do some of that down the road). Instead, I’m going to bring up specific points for feedback here on the blog, and then sit back and listen. I love to hear discussions about Vampire, and just about every con I’ve gone to has lead to me talking with people in the community about what they love about Vampire, what they wish they could see more of, and their concerns about the future of the game. That’s what I’d like to do with this series of open development blogs: replicate that experience of you telling me your loves and concerns as much as possible.
So this isn’t a blog where you ask me questions and I answer them. Rather, this is the blog where I ask you a question, and I listen to your polite, civil answers. (People being jerks will be ignored and/or tossed in the comment oubliette. Let’s be classy about this.)
One of the things we mentioned at Gen Con was that, unlike V20, this edition stems directly from Revised. Which means, on some level, Gehenna happened. This isn’t a post-apocalyptic scenario, however. For reasons that will be hinted at and eluded to in the material, something happened in Gehenna that changed things, something that wasn’t supposed to happen. So, while some of the prophesied events did come to pass, others didn’t. In the end, the Kindred weren’t destroyed, but they were certainly changed. (Feel free to politely speculate if you like — I won’t confirm or deny anything, though.)
The actual Gehenna book was very explicitly designed to be customized for individual chronicles, which means there isn’t really a “canonical” Gehenna to choose from (although certainly some scenarios get referenced more than others, such as the Wormwood scenario). Similarly, some of the signs of Gehenna referenced in books like the Book of Nod could be interpreted a variety of ways, and a few never seem to show up. I’ve pulled on many of these sources to construct a Gehenna scenario that I feel strikes a balance between fidelity to the original lore and my design needs for a new edition, but there’s a lot to choose from. There might be a really cool bit I’m missing that was lurking somewhere, or something that came from someone’s chronicle that was just amazing.
That’s my question to all of you: Assuming Gehenna came and went, leaving the Kindred changed but not eradicated, what events are interesting or exciting enough to reference in this new edition?
I look forward to reading your thoughts!
“You had my curiosity. Now you have my attention.”
Seriously, though, this alone makes for a major enough reason to differentiate between editions to get me very interested in this project.
As for events that should be referenced, I assume you mean Gehenna related events and not world events. With that assumption, obviously the Red Star and Week of Nightmares deserves mention, but I also think it may be interesting to have at least one event from each of the other end-time books – one from Werewolf, one from Mage, and at least one from the other gamelines (if not one for each). In addition to allowing a more cohesive world, it would be a more definitive “s*** went down, but it wasn’t what we expected.” A world where a mile long cathedral just appeared in LA (a la one of the emails in the Hunter ToJ section), when no such sign is written in any vampire holy text, definitely sends a message of “we don’t have all the answers” to the vampires, at least in my opinion. Now, there is the risk that doing this will lead to charges of “too much metaplot/crossover,” but I still feel it merits mentioning
“at least one event from each of the other end-time books – one from Werewolf, one from Mage, and at least one from the other gamelines (if not one for each).”
An interesting point. Folks should feel free to include non-vampire Time of Judgment events that might be cool from a vampire perspective. Thanks!
It would be interesting of there would still be an aura of “Some things we used to do are now dangerous, but we don’t yet know exactly what”. This would remove all the sense of security that have been gained by reading the old books so much.
My idea of Gehenna in my head is that God returned. At least a little bit, keeping the Vampires on their toes.
I one of those that aren’t really fond of crossovers.
Having said that, I wouldn’t mind a mention of other supernatural events affecting other supernatural beings in a vampire view. The word mention is important to me as it interesting and leave the possibility for more there but without making it a must.
I would also add to maybe focus on certain crossovers. In my opinion, I don’t see as much a important fact for Vampires to address changeling apocalypse. I would maybe focus more, for example, on mage as the technocracy are trying to gain control of the human world and in the Gehenna moment where there are so many vampires that fight to have everything the would clash a bit.
As a thought,
I wouldn’t mind having the capadocian come back with some friends from the underworld ^_^
Oh please, Capadocians! “The danger from the past”. maybe those who survived and was hidden feel free now to show their faces again!
Probably some weird lineages were completely vanquished (not only Capadocian lineages). This is a way to clean up Vampire. Too many weird clans/lineages.
Well, I assume the Generation lowered a tad for everyone, give players a little more power. So that’s a thing; vampires didn’t end, they were reborn and refreshed. That’s a pretty huge defiance of the apparent prophecies.
If anything is to be mentioned – if it happens according to V4 – it’s the clash between Caine and Lilith. How their, uh, ‘tumultuous’ relationship pans out will impact quite a lot of things. IIRC, Caine gained many of his Vampiric powers due to drinking Lilith’s blood (or something to that effect), so a resolution on that front may either intensify or weaken the disciplines – or change them out right.
Another event worth mentioning is – again, if it happens – forgiveness by God. It doesn’t have to be the case that *all* Vampires are forgiven outright, but that all who wanted forgiveness or a normal life, took it and left the vampire world behind. This, like the Caine vs. Lilith scenario, opens the doors for a lot of discipline and clan based changes.
Either way I think V4 will be pretty good! I wonder what kind of themes V4 will go for. Will it be “Post-Apocalyptic” in a thriving mortal world? I guess I’ll have a chance to really ask that question soon 🙂
I really like both these ideas.
Playing out the Caine and Lilith relationship and the fallout from that can definitely add some wrinkles to the Gehenna concept, given that the two biggest sources for Gehenna prophecies from from those two. Perhaps vampires find out that the prophecies were intentionally shared falsely, due to some previously unseen agenda on either of their parts could lead to a whole new situation.
As for the redemption thing, it’d also be a nice change. Vampire has done the pendulum swing back and forth on how much it allows for good-guy vampires and such in each edition, and I’d be curious to see this edition swing back towards it (as Revised very much swung away).
I’m not a huge fan of the “forgiven by God” storyline. I feel it takes the game out of the realm of personal horror and right into the realm of religious redemption – and I’m not in this game for Christian sin and redemption.
Can I get an Amen!
I’m not really interested in Christian teleology, because it forces the game into a binary: God destroys or God saves. That isn’t to say there isn’t room for a Christian narrative in V4, but it shouldn’t be the “True” Gehenna–just an interpretation.
“I’m not a huge fan of the “forgiven by God” storyline. I feel it takes the game out of the realm of personal horror and right into the realm of religious redemption – and I’m not in this game for Christian sin and redemption.”
I can understand where you’re coming from, I am a born again Christian turned deconvert, so I’ve experienced quite a bit of the faith spectrum.
That said, maybe because of my experiences I know that these stories of redemption and personal horror have quite a lot of common ground, enough for them to have a legitimate place in the original stories, and to at least get a mention in the new ones.
There’s always been two tiers to Vampire: The Masquerade mythology:
1) Political Intrigue: this is where most games are played, where Princes and Primogen and Elders wage wars that have more to do with themes like Sins of the Father, Young vs Old, Wheels within Wheels and the War of Ages, rather than personal beliefs. This is the level of political intrigue, mystery, where century long schemes are unraveled, only to have the cotorie fall into the hands of the Elders. This level of play will and should always exist, and to clarify, I don’t think the suggestions I wrote before should ever overwrite that.
2) The mythology: Caine, Gehenna and the Antedeluvians. This stuff only becomes relevant with faith based characters like Anatole, or the Sabbat, but even the Sabbat can play to purely politics if you choose to. People love to theorycraft about Caine and the Vampires place next to God, the Wyrm/Weaver/Wyld, and the Tellurian and how they relate.
So if you’re after playing purely for the mystery and intrigue, what the book says on these issues shouldn’t really matter, just as it wouldn’t have mattered in the past. The mythology has *always* been presented as “up to your interpretation” and I can’t see that changing either, it’d spoil the game to have things in the second tier set so heavily in stone that it defines the game and overwites the intrigue.
I like the ideas presented, but then you have the question… what exactly IS Lilith? She isn’t some vampire, she is… more. To me, Caine was First Generation, and she id the original source/cause of vampires, but she isn’t a vampire herself…
She is something ephemeral and powerful. Well, that is my take, anyway.
I’m more of a V:tR fan, but I have a lot of respect for V:tM.
I wouldn’t completely wipe out the Cainites. Rather, I would set the stage for post-Gehenna play. Give Storytellers tools to create a chronicle set after “the End.”
1) Different tiers. How does Gehenna affect inter-Kindred interactions? How does the Praxis system change if Antediluvians are walking around? How do the clans fair if the Jyhad is waged openly?
2) Antediluvians. Present options for different sorts of interactions with them. Are they intent on eating their descendants? Protective parents? Ruthless generals?
3) Clans. Suggest ways in which clans’ standings may change over the course of Gehenna. Maybe something like best case/worst case/karmic irony suggestions. Maybe the Gangrel rise to become the dominant clan? Maybe the Nosferatu cease to be? Maybe the lordly Ventrue are enslaved to another clan? What if a bloodline overtakes the main clan? Perhaps include rules for entirely new clans.
4) Caine and Lilith. This is one of my favorite aspects of V:tM’s mythology. I think it would be cool to present a scenario where Caine and Lilith go to war, and Clans and Coteries are forced to pick a side.
5) Sects. How do the Final Nights affect the sects? Does the Camarilla fall apart after one of its central tenants is proven false, or does it retool itself for a new purpose? Do new sects arise to deal with new realities.
6) Cross-overs. How might the end-times scenarios of other game lines affect Gehenna? What happens if the Wyrm overwhelms the Garou? What if the Technocracy wins out?
7) Mechanics. A toolbox to change up aspects of the game. How about no more blood-bonds? Unlimited Embraces? Something to level the playing field between Elders and Neonates?
I like your Ideas, especially the Cain vs. Lilith war. Lilith with all the angryness that a woman can have if she feels betayed and missunderstood and all up for vengeance (in all sense a 15k+ years old immortal woman could/would go for vengeance).
The Blood Line uprising would also be cool. I imagine the Salubri secretly placed agents in a lot of clans (mainly the ones that started or actively played a role in the big betrayal after saulot was diablerized by tremer) and suddenly they come out in the open and say “This what you get when you betray your healers and protectors!”
As far as I’m aware, Lilith is/was a Demon, but I could be wrong.
I’m not a fan of the God’s forgiveness option…
Personally, to had that route, I would had a small but growing faction that offers god’s redemption. I wouldn’t said if it’s true or not, it would be up to the Dm and his players to decide. Also, to keep the overall feeling of the setting, I would make their virtues a bit different from all the crap we are use to. It would be a bit more intense and would involve some things that weren’t necessarily know with classical religious speech.
“I wouldn’t like any event that confirms or negates vampire mythology.”
The question from the Developers was for what we feel should get a “mention”, so the assumption is that nothing will be set in stone. And I agree with your comment overall, the grander ideas of Gehenna are best left vague. I just feel those two aspects are the most noteworthy and deserving of mention via rumours or what-have-you, nothing more!
I always liked gehenna as tool of paranoia and forshadowing. Across all the different versions it meant something different and thay resulted in an air of mystery about it.
Was it literally the antideluvians rise and enslave the world in a thousand years blood empire? Was it just a cycle of the ancients awaken to slay other ancients of their line and then return to slumber? Or maybe gehenna is just a metaphor for any major event in kindred history? In the dark ages books they also believe gehnna is right around the corner. I imagine to the vampires of that time the anarch revolt and inquisition Certianly seemed like gehnna to them.
Things I feel need to be addressed?
1. Anything left unresolved in nights of prophecy. What happened to ur shulgi? Whay did tremere do after slaying all the antitribu? What happened to the red star and why? Theres a lot of signs of gehenna in thay book that were never answered
2. An actual ending to the transylvania chronicles. Things like kupala got released and many of the major metaplot events happened in those books. When gehnna came out it was a disappoint to me cause it seemed to just ignore those books (and others).
3. What happened to the camarilla and the sabbat? Both fall apart during gehenna. Whay do they look like now and why?
Those are a few off the top of my head. Personally I prefer my gehenna to actually be subtle. Rather that the kindred of the dark ages were correct. Gehenna a started during the anarch revolt. The antideluvians rose and reign in their blood empire…from the shadows. Look how crappy the world of darkness is? Sure looks like end of the world to me. Whoever said their would be some huge battle or obvious event. This is vampire after all. And that seems like the most horror version one could do. But personal preference and mileage always varies.
However, I don’t envy you. You will never please everyone and this is most certainly a VERY diffcult task. My adivce? I will leave you with the words of supernatural the tv show and we’re it really ended:
“Endings are hard. Any chapped-ass monkey with a keyboard Can poop out a beginning, but endings are impossible. You try to tie up every loose end, But you never can. The fans are always gonna bitch. There’s always gonna be holes. And since it’s the ending, It’s all supposed to add up to something. I’m telling you, they’re a raging pain in the ass.”
” In the dark ages books they also believe gehnna is right around the corner. I imagine to the vampires of that time the anarch revolt and inquisition Certianly seemed like gehnna to them.”
I really like what you pointed out. Gehnna could be some big event that change vampire society.
+1
Personally, one of my thoughts about that big event would be the change in the political scene as in I would like somewhat of a return to dark age way where the clan took a lot more place than in the modern times. I’m not saying that camarilla or sabbat would not exist anymore, it would be more that people faced to new dangers would turn on themselve and their family, their clan to face those dangers.
I also thought that the some or all pf the Antediluvian could come back but contrary to what prophecy told they aren’t killing us, they aren’t draining us dry. This idea would go with the first one and would maybe offer a explanation why things are going back to the clan mentality.
I was probably one of the “spirited” ones. I’ve since reflected on it and whilst it may not end up ultimately something I purchase/read the development is something that I will follow most likely.
I did post elsewhere about a Gehenna scenario we played through and I did actually play in another that I remembered a few days whilst talking the V4th through with some friends which was quite novel; whilst many of the events noted in the various prophecies occured (Red Star, thin bloods etc) they were misinterpreted. In some ways quite massively.
Ultimately we ended up playing through a scenario where the judegment on Caine was passed through the Kindred race regardless of Sect/Age/Clan/Bloodline. Those that were cleaving too closely to the ways of Caine and reveling in their vampiric nature and casuing harm were left as night-dwelling hungry and damned creatures. Those that had faith, had attempted to find peace (Golconda) or in other ways tried to “do the right thing” even if they couldn’t manage it all the time … well they were judged a little more kindly. His compassion was boundless but measured. They became more like the Dhampyrs and Thin Bloods; more human and very happy to have the day back (In a limited fashion).
There were no world-ending calamities or events where the mortal world took notice and couldn’t rationalise it away etc, but it still shook Cainite society. There were the Forgiven and the Damned. It was even possible to shift from one state of grace to the other.
Reference the specific events, in detail, that occur in the “new” Gehenna, whatever form that ends up taking. If such a fundamental change is occurring in the modern nights then there will be a lot of people documenting, studying and discussing it amongst the Kindred community (And likely beyond).
The Devils in the detail. Give the players the Devil. Toolbox/vague/myth type stories are fine for antiquity where records weren’t kept, dissemination of information was optional rather than inevitable and the like, but in the modern nights anything that happens would likely be documented, reported on and discussed before the event being discussed was even over. I think that’s a way that a “full” Gehenna could be averted in fact – modern technology and communications.
“in the modern nights anything that happens would likely be documented, reported on and discussed before the event being discussed was even over.”
As a point of discussion, do you feel that modern events are documented accurately in this way? In our world it seems that isn’t always the case, and I’m wondering how that would apply to secretive creatures such as Kindred.
I never said accurately. 😉
But say, for instance, “Event A”, some local End Times thing kicks off out of sight from Mortals, some savvy recent Embrace/Nosferatu information geek, Ghoul etc would possibly capture something. With the pervasive social media, cloud storage, youtube, instagram, flikr, tumblr etc all it takes is a couple of snaps and it’s all backed up securely and possibly posted across multimedia quicker than a nippy True Brujah with both Celerity and Temporis.
How it’s interpretted, flamed about and used when it’s out there … that’s the consumers role.
I’m thinking that the Nos take on a Wikileaks type role the more I think about it, blogging on the End Times amongst themselves or some king of Gehenn-iki collaborative effort.
Would such things happen? I’d wager they probably would. I’d also wager that every Clan, every Bloodline, every Sect and individual of every age, potency and lineage would have vastly different takes on what they were presented with.
The game moves from “Myth” and “Legend” to “Conspiracy” and sourcing accurate information.
I’ve just given myself the most horrible headache and a new campaing idea.
All modern communication methods require one thing: Electricity.
I think it’d be interesting if, during the Final Nights, the whole of the world lost power. Even things that run on batteries no longer worked. Maybe even generators didn’t work?
During the day, everything was panic and desperation. Nobody knew what was happening. And the nights….. the nights were darker than they had been in a long, long, time.
After, people would talk about the horrors they witnessed during the black out. But people were scared. Everyone was scared. Surely they were just imagining things; or exaggerating. Right?
The lights were off for 3 days. And just as the panic hit a crescendo, just as civilization was just about to tip over the edge, all the lights came back on.
Nobody knows why the power went out. Nobody knows why it came back. Theories abound. But after a few months, people started to forget, and life started to return to normal.
For most it was just an inconvenience. It’s over now and you have to go back to work. You still got to pay rent. Yeah it was weird. But what do you do? You get back in the routine. You return to the traffic, the asshole boss, and your Facebook page.
But not the Kindred. Something happened while the lights were off. Something big, hidden by a cloak of silence and darkness. And for them, after the Quiet, nothing will ever be the same.
Hi Eddy!
IMO, accuracy in modern media often comes down to what the source is. Most mass media tends to say roughly the same thing about an event, and based off their reports alone it’s be clear there is a lot more information about the event the media either couldn’t obtain, or couldn’t/didn’t want to fit into the story.
So for Vampires, I can imagine a lot of conflicting news and stories, depending on the source, with each source having a mixture of evidence and hearsay, but likewise it’d be too difficult to really put your finger down on what is evidence, and what is hearsay. Whole new Sects could spawn from this, based on the “eye witness accounts” of Gehenna, while other more skeptical parties would be sorting through all of the video footage they have to understand what’s been recorded. Just brainstorming though…
I think it would be interesting to do something about the relationship beetween Clan Tremere and True Mages.
Perhaps they got in Order of Hermes again, even as Vampires, or something mixed. Or perhaps they became Technocracy partners, in the case of helping to keep the masquerede saved, once it would be interesting to Technocracy that humanity still ignore supernatural activity.
I don’t think even the Kindred could hide entirely an event such as Gehenna. They could misguide, misnomer but not to hide.
The government fears the WikiLeaks, because, well, it leaks information.
Such information could start an entire revolution. The Kindred can be secretive, but today, could their secretiveness be sufficient? With smartphones, i-phones, and all the information leaking in all the world.
Of course, 90s vampires could smash a camera and brainwashing a journalist. But what about a teenager, with just a smartphone, leaking to the Youtube? What about a thousand youngsters sharing stranges photos on Facebook? Who the vampires would bribe, kill to remove the content? How they would wipe the informations?
How many Kindred are in Google to delete every single picture or video who remotely could show a Lasombra using Obtenebration or a Gangrel with Protean Claws?
How many ghoul scientists would be needed to disaprove or troll agents in imageboards to type “Lol, this is so f4k3!”?
It would demand a structure, time, employers. It could be done, sure. But it could be done in time, with Gehenna raining up on Kindred’s heads?
I don’t know.
I’d say it depends a lot of the nature of the Gehenna, but with modern communications and the 90’s kindred structure, vampires need to put a lot of effort on prevention, and also rely a lot on modern minds (be that young vampires or vampires who studied and learned to adapt).
A 3000 years old vampire unable to understand how TCP/IP and smartphones works is well fucked if it wants to prevent leaks. Even controlling TV channels means almost nothing now.
Probably a post-gehenna kindred society is more descentralized, more focused on clans and less in sects, or giving sects less importance. There should be plenty independent territories, where kindred living there had learned the hard way to keep themselves occult. a P2P-era society that works with modern comm structures, with elders that see themselves outdated and don’t know why.
Vampire’s new abilities (if any) should reflect the capability to remain hidden even with 24/7 cameras available at every corner. Maybe during Gehennea some other supernatural entity contributed to it (Mages?), it depends a lot of what the Final Nights was.
We should remember too about mortals’ importance on Vampire.
Camarilla used Masquerade to hide all Kindred from a New Inquisition… who would be recreated by mortals. Even the Sabbat appreciates the value of such discretion (yet they’ll not talk loudly about it).
And in real world, perhaps not all information is available, but acts still have consequences.
The Arab Spring, 2013 protests in Brazil, the Colour Revolutions in 2000s… you can hide something from mortals and made them ignorant, but you can’t make them dumb.
I don’t think our world would be able to sustain such Masquerade to Vampires.
Elders may even TRY reinforce the Masquerade… But with the Age, the same Elders poses as the highest threat of the First Tradition!
After all, as explained before, an Elder does not know how to behave in modern world in an appropriate way. They are anachronic.
And an Elder who hides himself in a safe haven, but needs his Childe and his ghouls to do all his moves in Jyhad is a step to be diablerized, dead and gone.
We know that the fall of clan founders like (Ravnos) have a profound impact on their clans. We might explore that, like what the fall of Giovanni or the other ancients impacted the remnant of their descendants. Also, some scenarios posited that there were more antediluvians than were previously supposed,but not all of them founded surviving clans. Maybe one of two of those new have progeny out there that were either hidden before or are newly created and possibly already coping with the loss of a founder. Perhaps Wormwood signaled that it’s now possible for vamps to be redeemed and possibly even regain mortality than was supposed. What if there are now once-vampire humans out there? Even if they’re not talking about how it happened, that will raise lots of questions that vampire hasn’t talked a lot about since 1st edition.
Well, maybe gehena as more of a 1st edition ciclical culling of vampire population, leaving the kindred relatively few in number, say a bunch of each Generation (maybe with some lower Generations completely erradicated). In the end, Gehena was not the definitive end of the world in a wide sense, but the end of cycle (and so the start of a new one).
If Antediluvians actually showed up, that puts the Camarilla and Sabbat in a very akward position. Their respective ethos and beliefs must be re-examined and changed to adapt to the new status quo.
Maybe change or do away with the weird clan-bloodline divide too?
Caitiff ought to be viewed in a different light now.
Assuming Gehenna came and went, leaving the Kindred changed but not eradicated, what events are interesting or exciting enough to reference in this new edition?
1. What happened to the antedeluvians? Were any new antedeluvians created?
2. Is this the start of new cyclical Gehenna process?
3. What happened to the Kuei-Jin and the Camarilla/Sabbat?
4. Were any clans destroyed? Were any clans created?
5. What’s the situation now with very low generation vampires?
6. How many vampires now exist in the world?
7. Is Caine alive or dead?
I agree with all of that plus what happened with Lilith and with the Higher Divine Authority?
Events of gehenna I’m most interested in:
1) The fate of the Salubri and the Cappadocians. What’s up with the Harbingers of Skulls? What’s up with Saulot and Tremere?
2) What’s going on with the thing under NYC? Did it wake up? Did it die and vanish? Is it actually Tzimisce?
3) What’s going on with the Assamites? Is their methuselah an infernalist now? How serious is their schism?
4) Are the Camarilla and Sabbat still around? Did the Inconnu come out of hiding? Did the Baharri gel into a sect of their own?
5) Are new clans/bloodlines emerging from the Caitiff? Are there more thin-blood vampires running around, enough be a faction of their own?
6) The chance to reverse the embrace has shown up a few times. Some of the gehenna scenarios touched on it (like Wormwood and Fair is Foul), the Red Sign revolved around it. It showed up in Alien Hunger, back in 1991, by way of Louis Pasteur’s research. Will Gehenna result in a lot of ex-vampires running around?
I’m partial to the notion that the events of the Red Sign and the way they messed with the vampiric Curse is what triggered the Withering. I’m also partial to the notion that the Withering is still around, just not as an omnipresent effect that’s depowering the [i]entire[/i] vampiric population. Instead, the post-Gehenna Withering is more like a plague that occasionally breaks out locally. As well, I like the notion that Saulot’s return ended up changing the Salubri status in some way: if there’s a way for vampires to become human again (not just Golconda, but actual reversion to humanity), it would make sense for the Salubri to be intimately connected to it.
I am sure that one of the big questions will be “are we sure that gehenna actually over? what if this is the quiet phase as the surviving ancients try to get in position for the next big moves?” Also if we do day a wormwood like weathering affect happened to the vampires in some or all of the world, a lot of Elders will have been destroyed in an orgy of destruction of course along with lots of younger ones too. With the ancients at least partially revealed, that will definitely create havoc for what’s left of the sects, possibly giving rise to new ones like the Nephilim that we saw in Gehenna. I see a smaller vampire society that is a combination of more Mobile socially speaking, more hopeful, and at the same time a lot more desperate, paranoid and even more fractured. I don’t see either major sect coming or of this without looking a lot divergent than they did going in, either in composition or ideology. This could be deliciously messy.
I would think that the ranks of the Sabbat would swell with former Camarilla members since the Sabbat’s predictions turned true.
I wonder if this might have a moderating effect on the Sabbat as people join to fight Methuselahs, but blanch at the emphasis on being a monster.
I disagree. Unless Gehenna does involve the Ante’s rising and decimating Kindred society (which wouldn’t make for a great 4th edition) the more likely response is for a significant chunk of the Sabbat to go “that was it?” and leave. However, as the Seventh Day Adventists and Harold Camping’s merry band of fools show us there would remain a hard core left over who would likely become even more fanatical and dangerous.
My first big question about Gehenna would be “Did the mundane world notice?”
Ultimately, my instinct is to say that they had to notice that something went down. Any event small enough to be hushed up feels to me like an event which is way too anti-climactic to be worthy of the term “Gehenna” (to a point where I’d expect most vampires to write it off as “not really Gehenna” and keep waiting for the Big One to arrive).
I remember that the Gehenna book did have one scenario kick off with a disastrous failure of the Masquerade. I’d quite like to have see that happened, so that in the post-Gehenna world the First Tradition is less “Don’t let the mortals know we exist” and more “Don’t let the mortals know we survived.”
People discovering the existence of vampires amongst them needn’t render the world radically unrecognisable. Perhaps the most visible result is that Government-backed hunters get a bit more access to official sanction for their actions and can conduct their investigations openly if they want to (though in practice they’d want to keep investigations extremely quiet anyway so as to avoid spooking the vamps), but those backed by religious groups or other third parties (or who try to go it alone) may look a little too much like dangerous vigilantes for the authorities’ liking.
Perhaps the revelation of vampirism kicked off a purge which most people now acknowledge went too far. Perhaps you could say something like “Authorities estimate that of the people killed as ‘vampires’ during the Purge, only 10% at most can be conclusively shown to be Kindred. False accusations were so rife during the purge that just about everyone knows someone who was accused and had to try and calm down an angry mob out for their blood, with varying degrees of success.”
That sort of thing could contribute to an interesting shift in flavour from the pre-Gehenna setting, and in particular make it feel like something truly apocalyptic did happen. Most importantly, it makes sure that one of the Camarilla’s worst fears comes true alongside whichever of the Sabbat’s worries about Gehenna come to pass, so the Camarilla don’t look like utter chumps.
My second is “What about the other splats?” In particular, are you designing V4 to be crossover-friendly, are you going to take a firm stance that there are not going to be crossovers and V4 Lupines are not WtA Garou, or are you going to continue that awkward sort of strategic ambiguity which seemed to permeate much of the run of the Classic World of Darkness? It strikes me that whichever way you jump the involvement of and effect on other supernaturals of Gehenna is an important question.
Oh, and another question: “What’s the deal with Generation?” Has the Blood continued to thin, or has there been a renewal and regeneration of its power? The latter could be a particularly interesting way to level the playing field between the old guard and the new wave, and if Generation stops being a reliable way to measure raw power then that’s another change which on the one hand changes the feel of the game but on the other hand isn’t fatal to the broad premise.
First, my apologises for my poor english.
Second, I just want to talk about the plot I played with my players for a long time. Caine was damned because he murdered his brother Abel. In my campaign, Abel had a legacy before his brother killed him. During decades, they were hidden, until the Dark Ages when a powerfull kindred discovered the legacy of Abel. To be brief, my players were the shield of Abel’s Legacy until Gehenna when Caine arise. Player bring the “daughter” of Abel to Caine during the final climax, where she forgive Caine for his sin, bringing him redemption and a return to humanity before final death. Caine’s redeeming end the madness of Gehenna.
Third, why am I talking about this? Because although I’ve never played the following of this campaign, I’ve been thinking about what can I do after. Here are some of the questions I’ve been asking to myself:
1/ Do every antediluvians disappeared with Caine?
2/ If not, did some of them were destroyed during Gehenna. If yes, which ones?
3/ Camarilla and Sabbat lose their “official” purpose, so did they resist to the end of Gehenna. Possibly yes if some Antediluvians are known to be alive. Possibly yes, if the powerful kindred of these organizations want to maintain their control over the young ones. Possibly not if antediluvians were all destroyed and that young ones want their freedom from elder’s enslavement.
4/If Camarilla and Sabbat crawled, what does the new kindred society looks like?
5/ Do the Caine’s redeeming alter blood powers?
I think that’s the kind of question you would have to answer guys. So good luck, I’m really excited to see what you will bring to us.
I’m assuming the Masquerade still stands, or mankind knows about the vampire and other supernaturals? If so, would be something like Mad Max? This is not the objetive, obviously, but, the events in Gehenna were internal ones? No big and public worldwide events that were see by all? If so, it will change vampires in the way they perceive themselves, their cosmological spaceand view and the nature of their damnation… Suddenly, everything would change forever. If this is a soft and deep ttansformation, it can be done. My thoughts about the events:
1- The antidiluvian waked up? If so, the Camarilla was wrong all this time and the Sabbat would made it’s point, somehow.
2- How to keep clans like Ravnos going on after they been wiped out? This is a problem, a serious one.
3- The humanity knowing about Vampires and supernatural beings will end the most important part in the meaning of play vampire. I hope the idea is, downrate Gehenna into a internal happening and the world follow it’s path normally, maybe with some glympses of something strange, natural disasters and wars of some kind, but not certainty of the hidden world.
4- Keep the Masquerade.
5- The withering may be the key to change generation from something stationary and permanet to something meant to be rised and fall (close to VtR blood potence). Generation were too restrictive, and maybe Gehenna free the kindred from Caim judge and curse making them open to find personal meaning along themselves. But don’t make clear reference to this, it could be new lore, and passing Gehenna, Vampires are all, potencially, like Caim having to find inner truth and turn more into a vampire as long as it happens.
I think two set of things should be mentioned:
1. Everything remembered by most characters (both player and non-player characters). If we are supposed to interpret, play such character, we need to know what they know.
2. A description of what’s set in canon, in the Onyx Path Realm if you want, and what specifically is not and is in the GM Realm. GMs need to know what’s reserved, what’s official, what can be covered in future books. And what’s set aside for them: they can do whatever they like with topic X or npc Y or event Z, the WoD lines will never out of character contradict the GM on those subjects.
Without seeing the proper design document, I don’t think we can be more precise than this. Will VTM4 be international? Will it focus on a single locale? Will communication and knowledge about other region be difficult or not? Those design decisions affect the scope of personal character knowledge, and so our answers to your questions.
Assume an international scope for the product.
“What from Gehenna we want?”
Well, since Ferox isn’t mentionned in Dread Name, it’s safe to assume that he get his “Wormwood” Good ridance. Cain vs Lilith is fun, with secret Antediluvians and things. Agustus Giovanni’s death was something he merited.
On the other hand, the sourcebooks have put a lot on emphasis on Tremere/Tzimisce/Saulot, and while it could be nice to have a nod on them, It could be interesting to have the other Antediluvian having some spotlight. In Gehenna, they are, at most, bystanders.
i’ve run a Gehenna game a few years back were the “main” Antediluvian was Malkav. he was trying to possess all Kindred to force them into Golgonda. He eventually achieved his goal, only to have Caine appear and telling him that the curse on his brood is to always fight each other. So Golgonda for all was a direct contradiction to the Curse and POUF!, all kindred died. It is not fitting here, but I’ve gived it to give some ideas for introducing other Antediluvian agenda.
Events in V20 aren’t necessarily what will happen in V4, as an FYI. So don’t feel constrained by what happened in the V20 books.
Potentially contentious point: could we keep God out of it? And either keep Caine out of it too, or at the very least create some doubt as to whether he’s the Biblical Cain or whether he just had the name applied to him by Dark Ages Noddist scholars because that was the paradigm they were used to? I would prefer to be able to choose whether, how much and in what form I include religious content in my games.
I tend to agree. Vampire and the Classic World of Darkness (with exceptions here and there, such as with KoE and Werewolf) tended towards a Judeo-Christian version of reality that I am hoping we could remove ourselves further from rather than confirming. I like the idea that certain philosophies state that no religion is better than another and perhaps all are true in their own way. However, making such a thing is difficult and one should consider quality (and past work). Still, I don’t think that means we can’t be a little conscientious of the broader make-up of players/humanity/etc.
Lets not do that, unless the point is to strip away most of the great things that make VtM what it is. VtM was intentionally the sort of old school biblical justice game, while Mage was more about various pagan faiths being true, and Werewolf about more shamanistic ones being true.
Removing Caine/God/Book of Nod and all the mythology involved would ruin the game. There is already VtR that focusses more on what you are asking. Lets not do this for VtM, too, or why bother with VtM?
I agree with Beckett to a large degree. Having a story about Caine and Lilith without Gods involvement isn’t really staying true to the spirit of the source material. In my opinion Requiem is a lot better for the people who want to to do the personal horror thing. VTM is about being trapped in a war fought between ancient and terrible powers.
That’s not to say that God needs to be a simple entity that just gives rewards and punishments. Taking a slightly more Kabbalistic approach gets us a highly alien being divided into twenty aspects each with their own modus operandi servants and even possibly agendas (Thaumiel from the Qliphoth does represent duality in God after all.)
First apologize for my English, I know it’s pretty rusty. I present my ideas about Gehenna – the Gehenna that I have played years ago – and the time that followed:
1) The Withering: Between summer 2003 and spring 2005 the Kindred society was hit hard by an epidemic known as the Withering. This weird disease appeared and disappeared suddenly without apparent reason. The Withering only symptom was making gifts of blood run erratically. A vampire could not trust their Disciplines or their ability to heal their wounds. Most Embraces failed, and even feeding the ghouls became a problem. Some found that diablerie was a temporary cure for the disease,
2) The Returned: For some unexplicable reason some powerful vampires, disappeared for centuries, returned. It is not known if they awakened from lethargy or returned from death itself. Even some vampires historically believed dead or diablerized ( with the disappearance of their diabolists … ) returned. This powerful vampires had claimed positions of power in vampire society, with lots of logical problems.
3) Tha Antediluvians: The Antediluvians govern from the shadow. They are a complete mystery, because their actions can be feel but they never show themselves.
4) Sects: Some changes for each sect:
4.1) Camarille: The Camarille has spent an lot of efforts to maintain the Masquerade and to protect their powerful members at the expense of their weak ones. With the Withering end the sect has tried to show a more conciliatory attitude. They have punished some elders for crimes during the Withering – really little more than scapegoats -, they have included some clans and bloodlines within their ranks – Assamites, Caitiff, Daughters of Cacophony, Gangrel, Gargoyles and Samedi – with the same rights than the other clans.
4.2) Sabbat: The Sabbat has experienced turbulent times. His youth rose up against their elders in a cannibal frenzy, and within months ended with more than two thirds of their elders. When the Withering dissapeared the Sabbath was on the verge of extinction. Only the arrival of dissatisfied members of other sects and the return of powerful vampires seem to have strengthened the sect against all odds.
4.3) Anarchs: They have survived amazingly well during the events of Gehenna. In fact many vampires of other sects have joined the Anarchs, with the exception of the Returned.
4.4) Independents: The Assamites, Giovanni and Followers of Set have been isolated more than ever, and it is rumored that they are directly controlled by their Antediluvians, following their dark agendas. The Ravnos have recovered miraculously of the Week of Nightmares, thanks in large part by the return of many Ravnos as “Returned”.
I think there must be a complete overhaul of Cainite society, with the extinction of both Camarilla and Sabbath. I believe that a more fragmented society, with vários sects with differing views on the gehenna events, would be interesting to explore. And if these factions, or sects, were not necessarily enemies os each other, it would be a plus.
Some level of change in the vampiric conditional would be interesting, but not too much.
The old clans should be present, but some may have been severely reduced. Ok, perhaps one or two clans could be extinct.
Blood sorcery dont work anymore and only rituals work would be very nice.
Please, make the 4ed vampires dont be a gothic xmen with extra fancy mighty powers.
IMHO, I find the Camarilla the least interesting aspect of VtM.
The idea of having new sects, or using the old sects as factions (like VtR) appeals to me. Adds an extra layer of loyalties to have as a conflict.
That would make the game far too much like Requiem.
Requiem has the “no centralized vampire government, factitious political parties” angle covered. There are reasons I play V:tM and not V:tR, and that’s one of them.
I believe that what makes Masquerade iconic is that the Camarilla, Sabbat, and Anarch are true global conspiracies. This gives the game world a sense of history.
Requiem’s great because it’s Covenants have a history but each one is region specific so what’s most important is what regional society the Chronicle involves rather than any norm that must be upheld globaly.
Masquerade by contrast is all about the global conspiracy and secret traditions, and each of the Sects deliver that to some varying degree. That being said I personaly belive the best thing to do would be to keep the Sects from Masquerade but drastically alter their world politics after the events of Gehenna. New Sects might have emerges as a result but so long as the Kindred have their conspiracies and traditions I don’t see that social politiking we all know and love going anywhere. 😀
Antediluvians returning would be good, especially if we get some unreliable narration regarding how that is or is not a bad thing.
Why would any of them honestly think Gehenna was over? The Camarilla would have a lot of issues and what about clans that suffered like the ravnos?
There would be a lot to cover, social changes due to clan and sect failures. Shake up disciplines as old stapples alter. Hell what about the odds that staying hidden during Gehenna would have been seriously hard. Most of it seems to me to depend on how gehrena played out ornis playing out.
I really hope this is true, both in and out of character/story. Im not digging the weak Gehenna idea, but if it was just the first wave, and its clear its not over, that might work.
The sixth Maelstrom awakens Caine. Red star in the sky, Lucifer rising, Hell’s walls cracked. All of that awoke Caine. Just for a limited time though. So he did what he said he was going to do. Only he judged the oldest. Maybe he devoured all of his 3rd gen children before falling back asleep.
I would like to see what happened politically after Gehenna. Is Camarilla in one piece? Or is every Clan on its own forging new alliances?
Imagine. Near-east. Ruins of a so-called First City. Antediluvians amassed with their followers. Dark clouds on the horizon. And then… well they are all… gone. Missing, dead, “Doissetep” scenario… killed eachother in a desperate way to lower their generation. Now without Antediluvians, every Clan is somehow different. Changed. Scared. Broken. Reborn.
Okay the Masquerade should remain intact, but strained. Gehenna should have mainly affected Vampires, the main affects on mortal society should stem from the changing behaviors of Vampires as Gehenna progresses.
Vampire society hasn’t been destroyed, but certainly affected.
1) The Camarilla shall be weakened, as once the Antediluvians rose the Camarillas views on Gehenna turned out to be wrong.
2) The Sabbat gains a large influx of new members due to the fact they were right and where more prepared to fight the Antediluvians, but are somewhat less evil and insane due to both an influx of vampires that are less evil and more sane and the need to fight the Antediluvians.
3) The Anarchs won’t have had a major change in numbers as although it would have gained members from the Camarilla who think the Camarilla will collapse and flee to try and survive and members from the Sabbat who fear that their peers aren’t able to put up an effective fight, there are also Anarchs who fled to the Camarilla for its greater stability or the Sabbat for its prepration for Gehenna.
4) The number of Independent Vampires has increased as Vampires leave the above three fractions as they think they’re more likely to survive on their own, but some Independent Vampires join one of the above fractions for the same reason.
5) The Baali ranks swell, as some Vampires choose to sell their souls to demons to try and survive the wrath of the Antediluvians.
About the Withering, I think that for the majority it reverses all leaves them at about the same level of power they were at originally.
But some might not recover fully and others might get stronger. Their Generations might even change, rising and leaving the Vampire weakened, or lowered and making them stronger than ever (thickening blood could be more common in clans such as the Ravnos and other clans who suffer heavy losses, maybe even having one of their Vampires Generation lower to third generation, turning them into a pseudo-antediluvian.
One thought that springs to mind is that Vampire society has become more open and chaotic. As Gehenna progressed Vampire Elders became more proactive and started throwing all their cards on the table, as both their powers weakened and they were less able to control their weakening pawns and the behaviors of both became more desperate.
An example, the events of Chicago by Night.
That was left with Helena awake and becoming more proactive in her search for Menele, who was still in torpor.
A V4 Chicago by Night could have them both awake, back as full strength and trying to continue their fight with whats left of their pawns.
Wholeheartedly agree. Don’t make the Sabbat mellow. Sure they could become more political, more fanatical ,but keep them as the monsters they are.
Also, if Camarilla members would defect, the anarchs are more likely since they just like Camarilla are… sort of not so extreme in their ways. More accepting.
I didn’t say the Sabbat itself would become less evil and insane, but due to the influx of vampires leaving the Camarilla and other fractions to join it, a lot of these vampires being not as evil and insane as the original Sabbat members.
Think of it as the fractions temporary becoming more focused on survival during Gehenna and afterwards revert to their original behavior.
After Gehenna, some of the new members of the Sabbat will leave because they can’t tolerate the monsters in the Sabbat.
The essence of the game is the Masquerade, the idea of vampires existing in a world that is quite similar to our own, behind a veil of secrecy. So anything that happens, has to happen behind some kind of Masquerade. Settings like True Blood, where supernaturals are publicly known, are very interesting, but they should remain alternatives.
The way I see it, the rise of the ancients (Antediluvians, the Second Generation, Caine, and Lilith) can happen with them entering modern vampire society, instead of radically changing it to the point where it is unrecognizable. Sects and Clans could all remain more or less the same, with the ancients aligning themselves to one or other faction. Who said that wasn’t always their intention? Surely new factions would appear, and the ingress of the ancients in the world would change, sometimes substantially, many things. I can see some very interesting potential to re-define the setting without making it something other. The appearance of the ancients is a perfect plot device to change what does not work in the setting. It also justifies any rules change, such as with powers and weaknesses (both vampiric in general and specific to Clans).
For instance, Antediluvians uniting under the common cause of the Camarilla, prizing Humanity and the Masquerade. A new vampire cult would certainly arise with the resurgence of Lilith, perhaps even a new vampire religion. How would the Sabbat react if Caine did not recognize them as their scions? And if he did? Would he select the Tal’Mahe’Ra instead? Would Zillah take the reign of the Lost Tribe/Black Hand? The Assamites could become a truly realized clan (or new sect?), erasing any negative stereotype (speaking out of setting) under the just leadership of Haquim. Which would be the face of the Toreador under the tutelage of Arikel: falling in depraved hedonism irredeemably or rising to a new status of true artists and muses? Is Veddartha truly dead, and would perhaps Enoch rise revealing a ploy where he was never destroyed, to take leadership of the Ventrue (the legacy of his favorite child) and reveal the Camarilla as the result of his own scheming through the ages? How would Setites change with the Second Coming of their God? New Disciplines could appear, the Antediluvians could change the properties of their bloodlines, create new ones, destroy some. Also, each local Kindred government and individual vampires would have to align with the new status quo, either embracing it or rejecting it. Would Princes accept an Antediluvian-led Camarilla? Would a Nosferatu reject the monstrosity of Absimilard, or become one like it? This would create new factions and schisms.
I think the potential is endless.
Good point! The whole how to remnants of the tal mahe ra react? Do they rebuild their sect into sonething similar?
On the same line of the lost tribe. A cult obese with gehnna.
Gehenna should have impacts on both that will need to be addressed.
As someone who’s played a lot of cWoD, I’m actually really curious about the opposite.
If Gehenna came and went, what’s life like for vampires now? So much of the last edition was about the buildup to Gehenna. What if it’s not a thing? How do the Camarilla and Sabbat deal with that? How do mystics deal with prophecies that were flatly wrong, or completely misinterpreted?
Those questions are what I find the most exciting about this new edition.
I didn’t come in to WoD until NWoD, so take this as an outsider perspective of someone who is interested in the cWoD with cleaned-up mechanics, but something I dug about the lore was the impending feeling of dread.
I’m not sure if it’s necessarily possible (although I think it might be), but I like the idea that there’s still a sword of Damoclese hanging over everyone’s head. Gehena happened and we didn’t all die, but everyone’s still waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Absolutely!
Not came and went, but more like we just opened the door and felt the first blast of heat. Time to go into the inferno.
The aspect of Masquerade I most loved was the sense of history. What I hated most was feeling that the metaplot was choking any story I wanted to tell. I’d like to see the history, including answers to many of things posted here (I really want to know about the Tremere/Assamite situation and how breaking the Tremere monopoly on blood magic in the Camarilla shakes things up), but then I want to be left with a sense of freedom and possibility.
If any kind of forgiveness or redemption occurred that changed a significant number of vampires human how have the other vampires coped? Suddenly there are a large number of people who know all the secrets of the masquerade. How do those who wanted forgiveness and didn’t get it feel?
If Cain died how does that affect the strength of his descendants?
Generation is a necessary part of Masquerade’s mythos but I always found it frustrating to know I was limited in power unless I committed diablerie. Whereas one of the things I like most about Requiem is Blood Potency as it means any vampire can reach their full supernatural potential if they are willing to pay the price.
I ran a hybrid game where a vampire’s Generation affected how quickly they gained Blood Potency with the lower generations gaining it the fastest, additionally Blood Potency didn’t decrease though its increase could be halted through the expenditure of a willpower dot(subconsciously if necessary)
I’m inclined to agree. One of my complaints about Masquerade was that you had to break the rules of Kindred Society in order to fully explore your power sets. Another complaint was that there was no mechanical reason to distrust or fear the Elders, something Requiem’s Torpor and Blood Potency rules did better in driving home: the threat of a Hunger-Frenzied Vampire, with mortal-maximum Traits, including disciplines, quickly clawing their way back to the top of the food chain over a pile of Diablerized Neonates. 2.0 does an even better job of this by removing the higher BP requirements from the Diablerie rules.
Can you give any indication at this early stage of what this edition might contain of interest for those of us who have never run any foem of Gehenna in our games and have no intention of doing so?
“Assuming Gehenna came and went, leaving the Kindred changed but not eradicated, what events are interesting or exciting enough to reference in this new edition?”
– The Withering : weaker and fewer vampires
– The Red Star : cool and dark omen !
– The Wormwood events
– The Final Night (Gehenna novel) events !! I LOVE this novel. My favourite version of Gehenna…
I think “Fewer” vampires is a good idea, and not as many Ultra Low Gen Powerhouse Vampires. But I’d like it if the vampire population wasn’t quite decimated, but certainly fundamentally changed, down to the last neonate and thinblood.
Other than that, all those points, I like!
For me, here is my take :
I would love to keep Vampire incapable to sire progeny due to the thinning of the blood. Also, I think there’s a power vacuum, as elders killed many ancillae and ancillae banded together to kill Elders. The steering of the old ones having descended but not to the end of their lines.
I would love to see some blame shifting and a real disparity between the surviving ancillae and elders on one side and the neonates and thin blooded on the other. The Jyhad went badly in the end, plans crumbled and backfired.
Rise of the Anarchs too, as a real third power between the Camarilla and the Sabbat
I’ve seen some interesting ideas above, but here’s my contribution.
1. What’s going on with the Nephtali? They were one of my favorite parts of Gehenna.
2. Lilith and her Apostates from Fair is Foul. They were a really nice twist.
3. The events of Wormwood could happen in some form regardless of what else is going on. Alia and Ferox running a refuge camp or something.
4. Poetic Justice for Muhktar Bey, please. I love him as a character but if anyone deserves to pay for what he did when facing Gehenna it’s him.
5. Jenna Cross and her thin-blood movement in LA.
6. Are we going to be seeing generations beyond 15th? What role will the dhampires play in post Gehenna society?
7. The fates of Ur-Shulgi, Al-Ashrad, Haqim and clan Assamite.
8. The true fate of the Second Generation? No? I’m asking for too much? OK. 🙁
Whatever the effects of Gehenna, it can’t be a minor shuffling of the deck chairs. We went through 3 editions of foreboding doom, so it will feel like a letdown if the only thing that happens is the collapse of the existing political order or the disappearance of a few clans. The very definition of what it means to be a vampire needs to markedly different between Revised and V4. Honestly, I would have been down with a post-apocalyptic setting, but since you’re not going down that route this is the best I can think of:
Gehenna happens with all of its fire and brimstone, but God (or perhaps Lilith) steps in to protect the Kine world. All of the antideluvians are destroyed, save Saulot who is spared. The entirety of the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th generations are destroyed. A very small number (>100) of the 9th through 13th generations survive through hiding. The thinbloods are spared, as their partial humanity brings them under God/Lilith’s protection. God destroys Caine as Gehenna comes to a close, and in his absence, even the 9th-12th generations lose the ability to create anything but thinbloods. Now, the foreboding threat isn’t some biblical destruction, but the slow attrition of an endangered species. I guess, in a way, I’m suggesting that V4 should be what Mage Revised was to Mage 2nd.
I think it would be great if Caine was killed during Gehenna- his destructing braking the curse of generation. The Blood Potency system of Requiem was far superior than the Masquerade gen system. With Caine gone vampires could now be freed from their ties to him. The thin-blood prophecies of Gehenna have passed.
Please no. I hate blood potency.
– The world is a mysterious place, and the nights even more so;
– The remaining Kindred are mostly neonates;
– A few know the nature of events that occurred during Gehenna.
Well, all I’d have to say is this:
“All thin blooded, all the time.”
The meek kindred (insofar as any critter with a Beast can be said to be meek) inheriting the earth and becoming something that’s kind of vampire, kind of not, could make for an interesting wrinkle. Don’t take it high power – take it low power. The new monsters are the former ancillae and ‘younger’ elders who somehow survived the winnowing, a new legendary kind of antediluvian monster.
Vitae for thought…
That’s an interesting approach, to ask the fans what *we* think is exciting enough to be considered for the metaplot advance. Thank you for that.
I’m really looking forward to see how Gehenna changed Vampire society. But first of all, sorry for my english. And sorry for the huge wall of text I’m about to write. 😉
I think some aspects of VTM are “game defining” and hard to change or dismiss. They are the Masquerade, Humanity (and Paths of Enlightenment), the 07 major clans (Nosferatu, Malkavian, Toreador, Tremere, Gangrel, Brujah, Ventrue) + Sabbat’s big two (Lasombra and Tzimisce), the two main sects, the Feeding/Embrace/Diablerie process. Those things, to me, shouldn’t go away.
I feel that a world without the Masquerade, “true blood-esque”, wouldn’t feel right to me. I also think that a big change in morality (and I don’t mean necessarily rules, of course you could tinker the mechanics) would change the game to something almost unrecognizable. Vampires have a Beast, to retain their Humanity is a struggle, and they have to test it against some sort of “moral chart” to see if they still hold on to it or if they decay, and so on for path followers. I think you should keep it, and maybe make it harder, since in this post-Gehenna Kindred society (in my opinion) things should be harder, weirder, darker. Things aren’t getting any easier for vampires.
I really love the Sabbat vs Camarilla dichotomy. I think they could be seen as something like “right” and “left” when we talk about politics (not that they are, it’s just an analogy). Of course you can have tons of political affiliations in between and even some who claim they are neither, but it’s still possible to come down to some sort of dualism. I wanna see more groups within the two major sects, specially outside America and Europe, but I don’t want the major sects to end or to become just two ordinary groups among new ones. The Sabbat and the Camarilla should be big. Even if we are able to “disassemble” them into smaller factions, I think the minor groups should always have someone more powerful to report to. I know some people dislike these huge conspiracies with few opposing sides, they feel conflict should be pulverized, but I think even in real life you can almost always come down to the same small group of big players. I guess you should also keep in mind that abolishing the sect dualism could make the game too much like Requiem or Vampire the Dark Ages.
I think we should keep the 13 major clans from Revised, even Ravnos. I wouldn’t want to lose any of them. If you cut off too many clans we’ll end up with Requiem, and I think that’s not something I would like to see. Of course they have to be different now, but I don’t know how. My two favorite clans (Tzimisce and Tremere) probably lost, for real, their “antediluvian” and most of their organization. I always though of the Tremere as a Tzimisce bloodline, so maybe you could play with that… I don’t know. I enjoy the Tzimisce as “antagonists”, die-hard Sabbat or apolitical beings, so I wouldn’t want to see a Fiend leading a Camarilla city or going antitribu, but let’s see how you’ll deal with that. Although I feel that a VTM game without Sabbat vs Camarilla antagonism wouldn’t feel like a true VTM game, if Gehenna destroyed Kindred society, they would probably have these sparse clusters of power with fewer interactions, with local leaders that only have local power, kind of like the Tzimisce’s own voivodate.
I’m excited and I want to read a lot of new things and game ideas, but at the same time I love the game so much as it is that I’m afraid to see major changes and dislike them. I don’t know. But I think that open development is a great tool to be part of the process, and to feel that we are being heard, and that you guys really consider our feedback. One thing I definetely would love to see is a new version of Storyteller that considers modern game design ideas, specially from avante-gard storygames. The narrative, the story being told, was always the protagonist of Vampire games, not the rules used to tell it – which was pretty innovative 20 years ago. Anyway, I’m sure you’re going to make a great job.
Thank you very much. 🙂
First and foremost, sorry for the “less than optimal” english skills.
One of the things that, IMHO, should be taken in consideration is the interaction between this new V4 metaplot and the BNS metaplot for their live action material. Between Revised, V20 and BNS we already have too many iterations of the same setting. BNS work in updating the setting is fantastic (even if I desagree with some of it) and should not “go to waste”. An agreement could be made to bring together this new material with things they’ve already had published.
Also, to avoid the same traps of previous editions, some work should be made to bring together Vampire with other titles of the oWoD, specially the big three. Also, some of the terrible decisions of editions past could be trimmed out (Lair of the Hidden, the “true” Black Hand and their lair in the shadowlands, Kuei-jin, Vicissitude as a disease, and so many other bizarre and really unecessary stuff). And please, I know that many will desagree but rebalance disciplines and discipline distribution between the Clans. The need to create a new exclusive discipline to every clan outside the Camarilla has given birth to a plethora of really idiotic powers (Serpentis, I am looking at you).
That being said I like the idea of a “fizzled” Gehenna. All the signs and portents were there but, at least to the surface, at least to the rank and file neonate and ancilla, not much happened. Elders could have risen but the sects were so busy with themselves that no one was truly watching. These Matusaleah’s could have perished without anyone really noticing of just could have joined the stabilished Clans and Sects.
Thanks and keep the good work.
This product will not be connected with the By Night Studios product line, so this discussion doesn’t need to take that product into consideration.
Well, since I didn’t see an awser to this on the website, can I ask why? They are doing a fine job, and I guess it’s quite unpolite to give them a “half a license” over the material (not unlike the Middle Earth franchise).
It’s all about licensing. Both OPP and BNS are permitted to use the creative IP of the World of Darkness as owned by CCP in their various ways, but there’s no such linkage between the two entities.
Thanks for the answer.
But, even if there is no such connection, the two different creative teams could talk. Some good dosage of dialogue could prevent the splintering of the fanbase and some headache for the ST.
Anyway, as I’ve aready said, It will be very hard to justify any really big event while keep the idea of a Masquerade.
Thinking on this, will we see the same “apocalyptic events” across all game lines? It would be weird for Werewolf 4th ed came out and mentioned none of the things that happened in Gehenna.
I like the idea of antediluvians we did not know existed waking up and either creating new clans or taking over and adopting clans who’s antediluvian has died. A fun thought from reading the different comments is that perhaps the event that stopped Gehenna was that Cappadocious (sp) finally succeeded in diablorising God.
Pondering that the mortal forces that have been facing down the Kindred become more aware, and authorities come to know who they are. But don’t want to panic the wider population.
So from this that much is happening to control the Kindred – a new “burning time” but one which is happen covertly.
What I’d like to see is Gehenna as a way of rebooting the setting. There’s basically six editions of metaplot build up with characters, plots, schemes and history. That’s a huge, HUGE barrier against new players coming in to enjoy the game.
Gehenna offers a pretty perfect way to pick up all the best pieces of the setting and put them back together without the baggage. Not just all the ridiculously complex novels-and-comics-and-splatbooks-oh-my, but also a lot of the bad 90s era racism, sexism and gender issues that plagued White Wolf writing.
Please, DON’T try to make things a direct, linear continuation of Revised. Don’t accept everything printed in First Edition, Second Edition, Revised, VtDA, DAV, V20 and DAV20 as gospel. Take all that as inspiration. Start the setting fresh by saying “Here is a society of vampires, recently devastated in a horrific supernatural (whachamajigger).” And go from there. Explain the setting in terms that make sense from that perspective. Maybe not all the Clans survived and some have merged together, splintered off, bloodlines are now Clans, Clans are now bloodlines.
There’s the potential for literal GOD to come down and reboot the setting, in character if you want him to. But please, don’t do that. Don’t just keep building on the existing framework. It’s full of holes, of bad stereotypes, of contradictions and confusion. 4th Edition is a great way to learn from 20 years of mistakes and development and start over with a fresh approach to a rich, dramatic and very fun setting. It just doesn’t have to follow exactly the currently established lore.
Trying to do that is extremely hard on the writers, who have to be familiar with every plot twist littered through seven editions of books. It makes it virtually impossible to excise some of the fairly nasty content, like the Ravnos as a clan of racial slurs that are magically compelled to steal, or the Assamites being the “Middle Eastern” clan of murderous religious fanatics. Or even minor stuff like the Giovanni being named Giovanni instead of literally any actual Italian surname.
So, please, start from Gehenna as a recent, mysterious and utterly devastating event… in a world that ISN’T bound up by so many books that one was released explaining how to make a vampire-house.
I applaud that, but at the same time I would like to play VTM 4th edition, not a whole new game. Can’t they just retcon whatever doesn’t feel right, but keep the foundations of the game intact?
Of course you could rewrite Ravnos and wipe out racial stereotyping, the same with Giovanni and other problematic aspects (hey, talk about Latin America representation in the game, transgendered-Tzimisce freaks, etc…), but should you abolish all the rich parts of the background? Isn’t the metaplot, in some way, responsible for the game’s endurance and longevity?
Are the portrayals of the Giovanni (and their spelling), Ravnos, Brujah, Setites and Assamites really “foundational” to the setting? Or is the foundation of the setting in the struggle against elders, the struggle for survival in a grim, gothic world full of corruption, apathy and fear? Masquerade can easily remain Masquerade, the same way Batman Begins is still a Batman story without being a sequel to Batman & Robin.
I think the seven Camarilla clans from the first edition and the two Sabbat main clans (which are also mentioned there) are in fact part of the core and I wouldn’t want to lose them. That doesn’t mean you can’t make them better, bring them to the 21st century. Give them an “extreme makeover”.
Anyway, a “struggle for survival in a grim, gothic world full of corruption, apathy and fear” can describe a lot of things, from the same Batman you’ve mentioned to Harry Potter fanfic or dark japanese erotic animation. If you reduce VTM to its themes, you can end up with a complet different product. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not even arguing wheter that’s desirable or not, even though it’s not what I’d like to see.
I’m definitely not suggesting that ANY Clan should be “lost”, but reconsidered? Yes. Can the Clans be globalized better? Yes. The Camarilla Clans are probably the best developed in the game, since they rely on broad pop-cultural depictions of vampires (except the Tremere, who are Ars Magica inserts) instead of narrow ethnic/cultural stereotypes. The Sabbat are also pretty good, except for the Tzimisce being too much Necroscope Imports.
It’s really the four Independent Clans and several Bloodlines that have the BIG problems with racism, sexism and stereotypes. Not boring, game-world stereotypes like “All Toreador are arists” or “All Ventrue are Rich”, but actually harmful stereotypes like “All the Middle Eastern vampires are religious extremists” and “The gypsy vampires (because calling them romani is too hard) are all thieves”.
And there’s the weird bra-burning straw feminism of WW’s tendency to create no-boys-allowed, all-women clubs like the Lamia, Daughters of Cacophony and Ahrimanes.
It’s just messy, and instead of layering on top of a bad foundation to “fix” them, they really need to be reconceptualized from the ground up. So how can you keep a Thulsa Doom cult of snake-worshipping tempters in your game without making them slippery, sinsiter and Egyptian? Uh, well, look at the Serpents of the Light, the Followers of Jormungar, the Daitya and all the other versions of the Setites that appeared in Revised. It’s definitely possible.
I cant seem to reply to Telgar directly, but can we drop the accusations of racism. Seriously. Its a bit rediculous. There are stereotypes for a reason. The gypsy thing went away in 2nd edition, but its funny that it never seemed to come up as a problem when talking about the Gangrel, who had just as much connection to the Rom as the Ravnos. Many Assamites do embrace from certain stock, just like most clans do. But there are exceptions, and most of the actual Assamites in print are not actually Middle Eastern or Muslim. Calling it racism is just a hot button word for something thats not there, or when it is, it makes sense and was intentional for a darker world.
There is a pretty big degree of sexism in all the lines, generally with the all-girls-clubs, but rarely all boys, and the main reason they are so hated is because they almost never make any sense, but out of game just remove cool player options.
I feel that outing the vampires to the world would be a bad move since that would make the Masquerade moot. And the Masquerade is what makes this alternate reality setting work, right? So a secretive Gehenna is important.
Add to this my personal dislike of the uberpowerful ancient cainites reigning from shadow with their endless power seeping from their dreamless slumber as convulsive yet perfectly accurate machinations. whoooo!!! be afraid, be afraid, be very afraid…
Bleh.
A perfect Gehenna to me would be one in which the eldest generations are destroyed (by an awakened Caine, ready to punish his children for instance but not interested in the thinner blooded offspring) and everyone knows it. All of a sudden, the young ones are free and responsibility falls flat on their own shoulders. No more pointing upwards.
Oh, and while we’re at it: kill off the Clans that don’t really fit into the classical stereotypes or can easily be templates of other clans. Like the Brujah, Setites, Toreador, Giovanni, Lasombra. Thanks 🙂
The Last Daughters of Eve, with their crescent birthmarks and harbinger-y-ness. Bonus points for working in the Ends-of-Empire actual Eve, a.k.a. the Lady of Fate.
Yes.
All of the ‘yes’ for this suggestion.
Was the Lady of Fate ACTUALLY Eve? I must have *completely* missed that memo!
Excellent!:D
Yeah. (Spoilers for a 10+ year-old book, I guess.) There’s a line in there about how she’s waiting for her son to stop messing around with the Vampires and come home.
Looooooong time (1991) cWoD player / nWoD reader here.
I’ll try to be brief ^_^
I am all for the “a little bit of Gehenna just happened and it was pretty intense but you just wait, because that was the opening salvo” approach. That or… IT WAS ALL SAMUEL HAIGHT, ashtray and all.
1) MYTHOS: Most Noddists were baffled because Gehenna was not indeed what they expected. In light of the events, they are reevaluating their theories at high gear, because what they do know is that Gehenna is still going on, and the next “event” will happen soon, somewhere, somehow. Other supernatural beings, mostly Mages and Garou, surely were involved (or, at the very least, had to deal with the Kindred Gehenna in addition to their own particular ends of the world.) The sixth Great Maelstrom itself could greatly inform how the Kindred relate to the restless dead, and perhaps all Kindred are now more obsessed with what lies beyond death. Which is NOT GOOD. Here’s more angst for you: not even dying will bring you peace!
2) GEHENNA: The Antediluvians arose (some at least) and fought each other. Or not. Maybe some of them communicated in whichever weird way such beings do and convened to go full on against Caine/Lilith/the other Antedivs. Alliances were made and broken, as always. And surely, one or more of the big players had devised an intricate series of plots to lose but win in the long-term.
Any overt “wars” conveniently took place in mostly desolated or war-torn areas, and vampires dying horribly but swiftly in their havens helped preserve the Masquerade, although in the Internet era, many a strange occurrence are to be found on YouTube and elsewhere. And as it’s been already pointed out, governments and hunters have become more active in the hunt for the supernatural. Good thing the X-Files are coming back.
3) AFTERMATH: Unlife-altering energies were released (on purpose or by accident), affecting most vampires, be it through Vicisitude, Thaumaturgical resonance, Blood sympathy, etc. Did an Antediluvian want to boost his Clan so as to better serve him or her? Also, most Gehenna scenarios invariably imply the elder the vampire the worse he or she is going to fare, as Antedivs. will surely go for them first. So the “less Elders, more Caitiff and Thin Bloods” trope is a thing, and might make sense, but I’d rather have less Kindred overall (proportionally speaking.)
4) THE BIG SECTS: The Camarilla and the Sabbat still exist. They may have fought for or against their masters, willingly or against their will, but the paragons and zealots did their best. However, new “sects” are bound to appear. Imagine one of the Antidivs. is actually active. Hell, it could even proclaim itself as the winner of the Jyhad! Even naysayers would have to accept its existence, and the Clan as a whole creates a new cult devoted to their (now weakened) eldest. Or against it!
5) THE NEW SECTS. I love Covenants from V:tR. Although I don’t think bringing that structure over to V:tM word by word would work, having more, say, “official teams” playing the Jyhad league would enrich the setting. There might even be one new, upstart sect aiming to destroy both Camarilla and Sabbat, but not in the Anarch way; they just want to be the new bosses (this would also work with an existing, minor cult which is suddenly catapulted to power.) Surely some mysterious individual or group (war-prone Inconnu?) is behind them. More mystically inclined groups would also be great, especially if they were related to Lilith and the Underworld (the new Tal?Mahe?Ra).
6) DISCIPLINES: Disciplines and power levels are so tricky. Personally, I don’t think I want more than a couple new CORE disciplines, and only if new clans or bloodlines merit them. After all, the Blood evolves, so modified classic Disciplines could work perfectly well. I would love to have several powers at each level, ? la Werewolf Gifts, but in keeping with the spirit of the Discipline and the Clans. Too many options plus Devotions from the start may turn Kindred into mage wannabes.
7) WEAKNESSES. I’d like to think whatever Gehenna actually entailed took a tremendous toll on all the Kindred. Their weaknesses and curses might have become more apparent or changed slightly, reinforcing the need for a more strict Masquerade.
8) GENERATION: What if 14th-15th Gens are no longer thin-blooded? They are just the new 13ths! Conversely, if systems do change, Generation might even be more flexible, allowing to concentrate the Blood to a small degree via willpower and certain Disciplines or techniques. I wouldn’t like to see a balance between Neonates and Elders. I believe the age/power gaps are inherent to Vampire. Perhaps they could get even more disparate ushering a Kindred world ruled by an even more ruthless and potent hierarchy.
9) WISH LIST! As requested above, please shed some light on the aftermath of the Transylvania Chronicles, Kupala, Tzimisce, Saulot, and Tremere. Also, bring on more info about the True Brujah and the Baali, a new Tal’Mahe’Ra, and a closer relationship with the new Stygia and Kindred.
Sorry I wasn’t that brief. All the best from Spain!
Events should be left open enough for interpretation to strenghten Camarilla’s belief that while Gehenna did happen, antediluvians still do not exist according to them, while the Sabbat should probably have an opposite take (Gehenna did happen, and it was all Antediluvians’ work – and for fuck sake, most still exist, so we better keep doing what we’re doing).
Sub-cults/factions within the Sabbat should leverage events that occured during Gehenna. Let’s say Caine apparently showed up in some part of the World, he was great and almighty, and shared a message with his children who witnessed the events. You’re in for some major regain of Faith for the Path of Caine within Sabbat ranks. Interestignly enough, there would always be room for interpretation, vampires saying that Caine’s appearence could just be manipulation from an Elder or an Antediluvian. Factions could be in for a very interesting debate among themselves. And if there were Masquerade breaches during Gehenna, the bad stuff that followed should be a strong reminder of the importance of the 1st Tradition, hence somewhat rejuvenating the title of the game.
Within the Camarilla, the blames could easily be put on the Sabbat and independant clans’ doing. The events of Gehenna should have enough room for interpretation that major events X, Y and Z might be attributable to more “realistic” entities. Different moves from different clans and power bases could impact the sect in various ways. For example, the way the Ventrue, Tremere and Nosferatu behaved as respective entities might have profound impact on their place and influence within the Ivory Tower. It’s tough to provide suggestions as it solely depends on how “cannon Gehenna” will actually have happened, though. 🙂 But in any case, it’s still “Vampire the Masquerade”, so I’m assuming The Masquerade is still alive and kickin’, which would mean the Camarilla probably went to great extents to keep it standing during Gehenna. That’s something that should be taken into consideration, I think.
The idea, mentioned above, of individuals saying “Gehenna is not over, it’s still following its course” is a very interesting one. While this should be more of a cultist interpretation, storytellers interested in this kind of mystical intrigue are in for a lot of fun, I think. And such groups could be used as either protagonist, antagonists, or anything else to suit a chronicle, really.
Some people mentioned a switch from Generations to Blood Potency (à la Vampire the Requiem). I’m definitely not charmed by the idea. The temptation of diablerie as the unique mean (let’s leave aside the Assamite ritual and side effects of Golconda) to increase one’s blood potency is a very interesting element of the game to keep – elders are stronger due to their more powerful blood, an “injustice”, in the eyes of neonates, that can only be “solved” through a very dark and heavy price. And a very interesting social dynamique as a (albeit respectively different) fundation to both Camarilla and Sabbat structures. Bluring the lines between Vampire the Masquerade and Vampire Requiem wouldn’t have much sex appeal, in my honest opinion. 🙂
In my mind, a 4th Edition should leverage Gehenna as an interesting twist of events, not an entire overhaul of the game setting where sects are totally wiped and replaced by new ones. I get the feeling the approach will be more to update, revamp (pun intended 😀 ) and put better emphasis on various things rather than shuffling things around entirely, so I’m truly looking forward to seeing what you guys have in mind. 🙂
Hi Eddy,
Something I would like to see is the issue of Golconda addressed. Something that it seems that Devs were shy of addressing (perhaps because of it’s sanctity) was the issue of Golconda, how it is attained, and how to run a Golconda themed campaign. I hope that we get a Golconda sourcebook in the V4 line. The entire issue of damnation and redemption, moreso than the Jyhad, I feel rests at the core of the V:TM experience. I would be thrilled no matter how you address it. Keep up the great work!
One thing I would *not* like to see is an approach similar to Orpheus. I love that game, but a Vampire game where the only recognizable things from Vampire: the Masquerade are hidden easter eggs is by far the last thing that would interest me in a new edition.
I think it’s important to keep the signs that showed up prior to the Gehenna book, and reflect on how the world interpreted them, particularly deciding whether there is still a red star in the sky visible to mortals or, perhaps more ominously, has it inexplicably disappeared (was it a comet that passed by)? Dependent on how much of a cross over there was with other game lines (and I think it would be more worth at least acknowledging them, even if they’re not addressed directly – reports of the dead walking, reports of an angel appearing over Los Angeles, reports of mortals exhibiting divine abilities) I think the events of Gehenna might be swept up in all sorts of end-of-the-world fervour. Perhaps the world is, as indeed it has become in reality, a world more on the edge, with conflicting ideologies. Maybe some of the signs of Gehenna are more publicly recognised, or talked about, and the Gehenna cults have bloomed. Maybe everything did really go to shit, and whilst the Kindred, Garou and Awakened fought their own corners they somehow prevented the end of the world without most of society noticing, but at terrible cost to their own numbers, and with certain battlefields on the map a testament to those conflicts where the Masquerade (etc.) was ripped to pieces, and where remote mortal societies didn’t survive unscathed at all.
I think it would be nice to retain some of the ambiguity about what is out there. We don’t need to have seen all the Antediluvians rise, or Caine or Lilith, because that’s going to be hard to top (and likely would have destroyed the Masquerade). But I could happily see things go the way of the Ravnos, with various clans having ripped themselves apart, urged on by an unknown ancients, allowing the numbers of vampires to thin, only the youngest surviving – and perhaps the most cunning of elders – meaning that Kindred society is rocked to its foundations, a very genuine terrible scenario did occur (largely out of sight from mortal society), but with none of the survivors clear exactly what did happen. In many ways something akin to Wraithly society as it appeared in Orpheus – many of those existing were ‘born’ after Gehenna, with no idea of Kindred society as it existed before the 21st century – they may assume that vampirism is a sign of the end times, that it came with the appearance of a red star. Not quite a clean slate, for those old enough to know better, but the rules have changed. The Anarchs would actually be on a level with the fractured Camerilla and Sabbat. And the Antediluvians remain bogeymen, but perhaps more active behind the scenes now. Even if the Kindred world didn’t get shaken so much I’d like to at least see the Tremere, Giovanni and Assassamites shaken up, as there was lots of metaplot unfolding there. If anything it would be nice to tie up some of those loose ends and maybe work a few new loose threads out of the fabric – to see what becomes of an emerging Gangrel sect, for example, or are there any Antediluvians we’ve barely discussed that might now start stirring into activity? What if one of the Antediluvians everyone considered dead wasn’t?
As a caveat to the idea that the world is ending, in mortal eyes, and that something big definitely did happen, I think certain ‘signs’ that occurred across the world should remain important. If a glowing angel appeared in Los Angeles are Kindred safe to go there 20 years on, or do they mysteriously disappear? And whilst we know that Los Angeles and the angel is all tied into the Demon gameline are there similar threats existing in the world from other ancient elders/Antediluvian? Are there places where Caine or Lilith hold court that are inaccessible? When the Ravnos Antediluvian was destroyed, along with much of the landscape, what have the Kindred that moved into those territories discovered? How are the Kindred of the East behaving now that the Sixth Age has rolled around? And, without making it a horrible crossover mess, do the Technocracy have ‘watchers’ keeping an eye on the vampire menace after having to put down that ancient monster?
Sorry, I’ve drifted a little away from signs of Gehenna and into intricacies of the metaplot, but it’s hard to disentangle them completely.
A few things:
1. I would actually like to see vampires get a reduction in power levels. A small one, but one nonetheless.
2. Keep the Sabbat, Anarchs, and Camarilla. Keep the same clans. These are clans and factions that gamers across the world have been playing for decades. A few changes here and there, sure. But the heart and soul of VtM has to remain the same.
3. I still think the gothic punk world of vampire works extremely well. While not being held down to it with shackles, I would definitely try to keep some of the flavor, updated to a 21st century feel.
VERY happy you’re developing this Eddy and I know you will give Vampire the respect it deserves.
Except for number 1, Third-ed.
Also very happy to see Eddy as the captain of this ship. 😀
Personally, I’d find the effects on the everyday vampire that Gehenna might have had. Did clan curses intensify? abate? Were totally different ones levied?
Also, if new cainite factions have arisen in the response to these evens. Are the Bahari organized now? Has the Camarilla or Sabbat changed in some perceivable manner? If the Tal-Meh-Ra is still kicking around, how have they changed? Or the Inconnu?
And what if some or all the Antedilluvians are up and about? How have they effected things if they are? What shadowy wars have they created, just based of their consciousness? Have new bloodlines sprouted up based off a denial of their Antedilluvian’s will?
Oh, and most inportantly to me, does this mean the Sabbat have bragging rights about having been right all along?
There is so much potential in this idea, and grabbing from many players, storytellers, and writers is a wonderful concept, thank you for this opportunity.
1.) Sects: I think the Camarilla should pull back and become a shadow cult, of sorts. Hiding behind obscurity and falling back to the concept of “out living the problem” seems like it would work best in their mentality. Now players catch hints that they are still around as they are still making efforts to clean things up and “vanish” those who caused the most issues. Players should have options of joining them, but it more of something earned now than something just given, like the Camarilla is no longer grabbing everyone, but instead looking for people with the skills, connections, and mind-frame to fit into it’s global power society.
Sabbat: They should be all but wipped out, the major functions and monstrous entities gone. Have them fluctuate into splinter cells formed fromt he remaining groups that still try to do their jobs. For example, the Inquisition is still out there hunting demons, demons worshipers, and infernalism. The Black Hand is still a militant group out to protect Vampiric society be that from others or it’s self. Again giving option to players to join such groups when they earn it and meet said factions recruitment requirements.
The Anarchs did very well in most of the Ghenna books, they should find themselves in a new global level power seat and the conflict should come from them slowly watching them turn into the things they hated most to try an keep their society afloat. Struggle, personal horror, and political intrigue abound as they try to find power and strength to run their cities.
Generation, because of the withering, as a mechanic should now be something similar to blood potency. Able to not just adjust from diablerie, but other methods as well.
Humans, should ascend to a serious threat now. A revisiting of the mechanics to how they are should be looked at so that humans can feel like a threat to vampires. They all some shit, and no level of cover up is going to cure the issue without using more supernatural powers which creates more issues and potential for people to find out. Make real government agencies tasked with policing, contacting, and studying them. Religious groups who focus on eradicating them, and other functions who wish to manipulate and control vampires to their bidding.
I like the idea of the Antes stirring and consuming many of their childer – that’s kind of the fear at the heart of Gehenna. From there, the question is what happened to them?
On one hand, I like the idea of them stirring, wrecking Cainite society, and then falling back into slumber. Maybe this suggests that the rise of the antes is cyclic. Perhaps it throws into question the mythos of the Book of Nod. (What if the Second City were simply the most recent cycle of activity from the Antes? What if only some Antes rise with each cycle; Lasombra and Cappadocius were active during the War of Princes, for example.) Slumbering but provably real antes could lead to stories of trying to hunt down the resting place of antes. Can they actually be killed? Or are they an intractable part of existence?
Another possibility is that some of them remain awake, and between the destruction of some antes and the collapse of the sects in the ensuing chaos, Clan and Sect are no longer useful. (The collapse of the sects and the rise of new factions was another part of Gehenna that was particularly compelling.) Perhaps the new sects are conspiracies and cults devoted to a particular ancient blood god.
I’d love to see the number of ancient elders significantly reduced as a result of Gehenna. Allow player characters Embraced into the modern world to have a lot of upward mobility. This might also clear the Jyhad playing board (washing away the centuries-long schemes of the elders), which could have the added benefit of making it much easier for new people to get into the game. Those elders that remain have to create new schemes – plots that involve the player characters.
Another interesting thing to explore might be the relationship between the redeemed (those vampires who survived Gehenna by returning to mortality) and those Kindred who survived though mystical means or by going to ground.
I am Brazilian and so from now on I will speak in Portuguese.
Eu comecei a jogar storyteller numa mesa de Vampiro: O R?quiem. Joguei desde o lan?amento e at? cheguei a jogar em mesas de VoR: The Strix Chronicle.
S? algum tempo depois foi que comecei a me aventurar pelo cen?rio punk-g?tico do Vampiro: A M?scara.
Foi amor ? primeira vista.
Parei o que estava lendo e comecei a me debru?ar exaustivamente sobre o conte?do que tinha dispon?vel (os livros b?sicos, livros de cl?, idade das trevas, camarilla e sab?) e ? medida que lia, mais buscava e mais queria ler.
N?o li tudo, mas li muitas coisas, principalmente sobre nosferatu, toreador e idade das trevas.
Primeiramente queria que voc? que est? lendo soubesse que n?s, consumidores, desejamos duas coisas incompat?veis: est?tica e l?gica. Queremos um cen?rio familiar, sombrio e cativante. Queremos eventos bem amarrados e que fa?am sentido no final das contas. Mas n?s queremos a cima de tudo que a produ??o do jogo pe?a nossa opini?o e isso voc?s est?o fazendo bem.
Parab?ns pela iniciativa.
S? gostaria que voc? se lembrasse de que al?m de refletir um sentimento l?gubre dos anos 90 (e por consequ?ncia sua est?tica punk-g?tica) o cen?rio de Vampiro: A M?scara ? um cen?rio ?nico com uma est?tica pr?pria. N?o desperdice esse potencial.
A Gehenna chegou e transformou os vampiros, por que n?o aproveitar isso para transformar o jogo em si? Essas transforma??es devem ser engenhosamente pensadas e expostas atrav?s desses “eventos”. E ? essa a minha resposta ? sua pergunta: Os eventos que devem ser citados s?o aqueles que sirvam para transformar o modo como os ancillae que come?aram a jogar nos anos 90 enxergam o cen?rio. Esses eventos devem se adequar ? nossa realidade e tamb?m atrair ne?fitos para as fileiras.
Obviamente o Sab? n?o resistiria ao despertar dos Antidiluvianos. Que tal o ressurgimento do cl? Salubri? Ou ser? que o falso e ambicioso Saulot deseja dar luz a um novo cl?? E Tzimisce? Quanto tempo demorar? at? revelar seu esconderijo? Os Tremere dever?o cair junto com o Sab? ou ser?o salvos por Saulot tamb?m?
Personally, I’d like to see the effects of such an event must have had on the Camarilla and Sabbat. The Camarilla’s strongest doctrine is that none of those things could possibly come to pass, and that believing otherwise is heretical. What happens when the voices of reason have been lying to you?
And with the Sabbat? They were right. There was something terrible approaching, and they might not have been ready for it. So busy fighting enemies that didn’t even believe, their faith that they would rise up and slay the ancient monsters in their lineages turned to naught but ash. How would the passage of Gehenna effect those who railed against the ancients now live in a world where they no longer have a prophecy to justify their actions?
While I don’t feel even a half-baked Gehenna could happen without mortals realizing something was up, I do not in any way support a recommendation that they have at any point through all of this come to understand that vampires did or do exist. I feel that DOES so change the entirety of the World of Darkness that it would be unrecognizable. If mortals knew to use their technology to look for “what’s out there,” I don’t see how a story could begin to suggest that they wouldn’t succeed without being a thick, syrupy brie. I believe whole-heartedly that this would destroy the game wholecloth.
I do like the “new Gehenna cycle” concept people have brought up. You could go with the concept of the Kuei-Jin (and Saulot’s borrowed understanding) but slightly inversed… The world goes through 5 stages but then rather than starting a new cycle in a bright and shiny world the next 5 stages are a slow build to a new golden age. This would allow the World of Darkness to continue past Gehenna and pretty much stay dark within the perview of the games most ST’s will be running.
I have no problem with a couple story nods to the other games, but I hope V4 continues with the tradition of the individual games not being intended to be played together. Better to keep everyone happy and apart than bitching and moaning because in order to be played together they’d all have to be nerfed in ways no one will appreciate.
I would recommend an almost complete annihilation of the younger generations (and maybe all Caitiff). Something does happen that no Cainite weaker than, say, 9th Generation survives. I’d eliminate them from the bottom, up rather than from the top, down. The reason being that the majority of players are not going to want to play characters that can never have the potential of being as powerful and awesome as the ones we played a decade and a half ago. There’s just not much fun in it. Or, I could see a change from Generation to something else like Felipe Moulim’s suggestion above.
Perhaps the new “Caitiff” would be actual blendings of two clans (one discipline from each with a limit of two, and the weaknesses of both), or can only be created via Thaumaturgy or something.
I can’t really see the Camarilla holding together as it has for a couple hundred years with Antediluvians rearing their ugly heads. I think that society would have to fold, but at the same time I can’t imagine those old and powerful schemers just washing their hands of it and moving on. I expect it would probably change in name, and essentially say, “fine, we were wrong about Caine and his grand-kids but the Traditions and the Masquerade are still excellent ideas and we’re going to stick with them.” I’d also love to see the Anarchs just get subsumed by the other factions and disappear, but that stems from a personal distaste for them.
Or go with Valismedsen’s recommendation above!! Really like that one a lot.
Really like it.
Well, it’s a very broad question, to be sure! 😉 Anyway, I will like the new edition to address the questions that were left unanswered from the previous editions and chronicles. Some of them will be:
– What happened at the end of the Giovanni Chronicles? The fourth book was a very strong one in itself but it was totally disconnected from the previous ones. The Sargon Fragment, the Anexhexeton… at the end there was almost no information about them. Some information about the final end of Cappadocius and how that affected his children may be nice. Maybe the final death of Cappadocius was the reason behind the apparition of the Harbinger of Souls?
– What happened at the end of the Transylvania Chronicles? While they were a little less problematic than the Giovanni ones the truth is that the end was a false one. Kupala is supposed to be free and there is even a letter at the end that says that the Chronicle was the first round… While I don’t like the fact that a demon was at the center of the chronicle, some closure about it will be fine.
– Some hard truth about the Inconnu. All we have is some monitors, the idea from V:DA that they were the reason behind the fall of Constantinople, some elders in a castle… and nothing more. Some information about them may give birth to a new faction in the Jyhad. Maybe with the coming of the Gehenna they decided to reappear in public and actually did something. They may even become a new major power in the vampiric politics and a playable sect.
– The Week of Nightmares. But, of course, that’s a sure thing, I guess.
– The state of the Antediluvians. One thing I didn’t like about the Gehenna book was when we were teased with the information about the Antediluvians to find that… at the end all that mattered was what happened with Tremere, Saulot and Tzimisce, the rest were only hinted at, or not even that. Someone said in a previous comment that having the Antediluvians out in the open and ruling their children could make for an interesting setting. I think he had a point.
Well, that post wasn’t the kind of thing I was looking for. I’m not against asking questions about specific topics for collecting feedback. In fact I think this is a pretty good idea. But at first I was expecting you would share your visions about this project in a more general manner. What the scopes of changes you are planning for the system or to the setting. What are your design goals and principles for this edition? Honestly, I don’t feel comfortable to formulate opinions on specific topics while I’m still confused about what this new edition is trying to achieve.
Best regards! I will look forward to see how this will shape up in the future.
The white wolf page had a news ticker of crazy stuff going on. I would love that aspect of during that time period a ton of weird stuff happened, making it easier for whatever was happening with vampires to be lost in the mix.
I don’t know about Antediluvians but I think it won’t be necessary to erase the idée of Masquerade. This is essence of the whole game. And it still can work!
Humans have a lot of tv shows, books, films with so many different types of vamps in them, so it could help the bloodlusties stay hidden in the shadows.
//And who said no creative Kindred with great ressources ever helped humans to have a certain distorted image of vampires in their minds, too? :D//
Kine have Twilight for Caine’s sake… 😀
A True Blood kind of world… well, it would be tricky but it could work for a while… then humans would probably go war againts of vamps (and others), plus they have pretty dangerous weapons, and could outnumber supernatural creatures easily.
Damn, maybe this is the “true” Gehenna. It comes from outside and (almost) as a surprise. //And this is what Elders fear so much, and why the Masquerade was born.//
About the sects. We need them and the 13 clans. 😀 //I feel that the smaller and exotic ones probably will end up dead, I guess… 🙁 //
I think the Sabbat will be stronger, get herself more territories, and followers caused by the fear of Gehenna.
The Camarilla will be weakened down but still working. Finally they start behave like a ‘family’ but they also have to change some inner rules — at clan levels, too. (Like ‘Let the kids obtain more and important positions in their mother clan.’, etc.)
Anarchs? I can see most of them joining the Camarilla – temporary, only to survive. After the storm is gone they would leave, again. (Third Anarch Revolt, mmm).
Arthur (August 25, 2015 at 12:07 pm) mentioned that we should have doubts about Caine’s true identity and let us decide whether we can’t him to be Biblical or not. Brilliant idea and I agree with him.
I guess that’s all. For now. 😀
This is your best chance to relly shake up the clans that were left feeling a little lame: explicitly throw off the racist past of the Ravnos and make their awesome DAV20 weakness core, redefine the Setites as something other than Conan villain wannabes (at least have them revere the right Egyotian god!) or else merge them with the Baali, make the Assamites something other than the assassin clan, etc. I’d love your forever if the Giovanni become something more interesting.
What goes hand in hand with all this is a grve need to redefne the social structures of the game: if the Camarilla survives and still claims to be welcoming of all Kindred, then the lion’s share of the bloodlines shouldn’t belong to the Sabbat. Make the Anarchs something other than Diet Camarilla with a thin coat of punk paint,
I’d love to see a “no sacred cows” approach to VtM4, where all of the bad design choices and unfortunately racist depictions finally go the way of the dodo.
Some of the things I would like to see touched on:
– Definitely put into question some of the preconceived assumptions. I loved the Apostates in Fair is Foul and even Sarah, the Antediluvian who came out of know where in Nightshade.
– I want to see something for the Inconnu, we have a huge berth between Rebekah, what is in Lair of the Hidden, and the interesting teases in the V20 books.
As *something* already happened in that Enoch city used by the Tal’mahe’ra, I’d use that as a Gehenna location. Now filled with younger vampires who have learned to travel there (or who found they could do it since Gehenna).
The travel to Enoch could be a initial rite for millenials, young vampires from 15, 14, 13th generation.. older vampires need to learn complicated rituals.
The ruins of the spectral and empty city are open to investigate, there are misterious containers, some of them recently opened or broken from inside…
Some or all of those new Enochites are a faction, young fanatics, ultrareligious that can fight what remains of camarilla, sabbat or anarchs, they may be the default starting characters. Maybe they need t travel there as humans and being embraced there.
Maybe real Gehenna happened there, and what was seen in “real” world was a reflection. That place could connect to Garou’s Umbra, maybe as some sort of unification of spirit realms that can be used in werewolf and mage later.
I suppose the most obvious change was that before the Antediluvians were asleep. Now they presumably are or were awake. Gehenna as a city is also presumably being built, though I suppose it might be hidden away from mortal eyes.
How has the balance of power shifted between the Camarilla and the Sabbat? A lot of people have suggested that Gehenna happened so of course the Sabbat are now more powerful but at the same time, if Gehenna was sufficiently ambiguous (did Cain turn up or was it simply someone who could have been Cain?) then surely some of the less fanatical members will be far from devoted to blithely staying the course; they planned for the apocalypse but it was a whimper rather than a bang to most of them.
What’s happened to the Ivory Tower: The way I’d play Gehenna is that the Ivory Tower were “revealed” by the Sabbat to be the Antediluvians and assaulted by the strongest warriors the Sabbat can muster. To the rest of the world it ends with amssive explosion in a backwater part of the world and news reports 7 survivors that all vanish shortly aftre they arrive at Hospitals. It ends with a single Vampire making it to New York and confirm that the Ivory Tower are all dead… The Camarilla is shaken to its core and the Sabbat is plunged into an existensial crisis but no-one can be sure if the survivor is telling the whole truth and maybe, just maybe there are now some Vampires out there with the same powers as the Antediluvian having Diabalarised them. Maybe a dying passer by was given the gift of eternal life by one of them and is out there alone and confused but with the powers of a demigod…
Other than that I’d just like to repeat the pleas that several others have made – make the background more ambiguous (I hated the later cWoD books tendency towards the Abrahamic God being treated as truth): offer more alternative explanations for Vampirism that diverge from the book of Nod. Reading V20th you’d be forgiven for thinking that every Vampire believes in Cain and God in the biblical sense.
I’m much more into W:tA’s lore than Vampire, so I’m not sure I can speak to minutiae, but what I think would be interesting in a post-Gehenna V4 would be:
1) The splintering, blurring, and rebirthing of the Camarilla-Sabbat schism. Old battle lines should be irrevocably rendered meaningless.
2) Upending the dilution of blood: I can’t think of another way the power differentials between the young and old vampires would be significantly challenged without something happening to the Blood.
Thoughts:
-New Lineage of vampirism that doesn’t trace itself to Caine. Tie it to the red star? If the Wyrm is one of the major spirits of the Tellurian, and vampirism is tied to the Wyrm, couldn’t there be other strains of vampirism in other planes/worlds/realities? New vamps show up burning with energy, and even if they can’t kill the elders, they sure as hell change the game?
3)A creeping awareness of the growing human population. I think one of the powerful things with WoD is an ability to take real life fears and just stab into them. There are more humans than ever before–more food for the vamps. But the more humans, the less resources for all humans, and the whole world is kind of feeling the resource strain. Humans could kill themsleves off–and that’s as much a threat to Vampire-dom as anything else. A fear of humanity killing humanity off would be an interesting layer to add into the vampire psyche.
I can’t think of anything else off the top of my head, buuuut them’s my brianmeats for the time being.
So, I had started a huge reply that was honestly too comprehensive. Let me focus on sticking to the meaty goodness.
Gehenna didn’t *finish* yet. However, let’s bring it to the main stage. In the past, there was too much of it permeating the game, even though the typical, young, played-by-player characters were all in the dark about it. There was too much amazing story out there and a whole LOT of lead-up just to get the characters to the point of where the players were excited to participate.
The Camarilla elders had their head in the sand for too long, and the Sabbat were misguided by bullshit for too long. The elders’ manipulations are fun plot devices, but, damn…it felt like a futile setting to try to do anything with.
Break them down, make them all face the music, and allow the youngest generations to have tools to actually band together and survive the plots of the elders (whoa…perhaps this is a great story/mechanic for player troupes). Uber-powerful elders are not the problem, but the utter breakdown of communication between the youngest and those who hold *some* of the knowledge became tedious.
Perhaps a new trait among vampires that exists in just the latest generations. Perhaps an event that spawns new groups of leaders in the sects. Something that brings about connections, something a tiny bit positive, something that allows the youngest to tell the eldest, “You can tear our hearts out, but your centuries of controlling our minds are over with.”
It is still a game of personal horror, and I think, for ALL vampires, there should be more emphasis on the struggles against the Beast Within. Still tormented souls who are cursed to undeath. However, in the face of Gehenna, vampires might now be the instrument of Caine’s wrath. Who are the elders with a massive kharmic debt to pay? Do the sects re-divide according to elder alliances, or do they coexist with purposes that are simply different instead of conflicting?
Bring the drama and the conflict back to the “common vampire.” Metaplot is not a bad thing, but it is pointless if a great casual game cannot really interact with it.
Will there be multiple lines active? That is to say will there be more v20 books going down while v4 comes out?
I ask this because Chaosium has a fun little game called “After the vampire wars” basically its a post masquerade sort of setting. People have also pointed out True Blood as a similar thing.
Many of the more DBZesque fights in Gehenna could easily have lead to a post masquerade world, and I think using the classic World fo Darkness as the basis for a Post Masquerade world could be a neat setting to explore, but I wouldn’t want it to be the only option out there. I like having books which portray a dark mirror world to ourown just as much as more over the top stuff.
For purposes of moving forward with Gehenna and a still secret world, I think the videogame Bloodlines said it best, every time Kindred see something slightly weird they start screaming GEHENNA freak out and act exactly like how terrible people act when they think the world is going to end.
SO the Antedeluvians didn’t awaken or at least no one noticed but between elders deciding they needed to get their enemies before the world ends, or trying to chow down on as many neonates an ancilla as they could(and those banding together to fight back), between Tremere and Assamites doing whatever crazy rituals they think needs to be done and done now and settites trying to summon up their Dark God, that’s how the Vampire world Changed. That’s how it changed in the darkness and the shadows, not because the stars are Right but because deep down vampire are profoundly fucked up people.
Please stop. 3E was perfect, you guys are turning into Wizards of the Coast and that’s NOT a good thing.
Revised Shows its Age, unless you want to play in the Eternal 90s how the Masquerade works when every idiot has a camera on their phone is situation that needs to be covered. So its damned not perfect if I want to play in 2015.
Its also as in print as 4e will be, all POD from Drivethru. Unlike WOTC which takes books out of production.
When Revised (1998) came out, AD&D 2nd Edition was still current. Since then, D&D has gone through D&D 3e (2000), D&D 4e (2007), and D&D 5e (2014).
It’s been 17 years since the Revised rulebook was published, which is four years longer than VTM was originally out to begin with (1991-2004).
Comparing VTM4 to D&D releases is a huge stretch.
Although I agree with Ian in that it’s a bit of a stretch to compare Vampire to D&D, still that doesn’t alleviate the fact that this sounds like an obvious cash in plot. That is were still getting some of the first, and most needed, V20 supplements out, like Ghouls and Tal’Mahe’Ra, and supplements such as these could easily be used to explain things people are wandering about, like how the Masquerade survives the information age and cell phone cameras. You do not need to make a whole new edition when the ink has not even been printed for all of the current V20 edition.
I do think it would have been a a better plan to update Vampire to the modern age through V20 line, including the lack of any greater Metaplot but still advancing the timeline.
It just feels silly, especially since it has been alluded to that there are going to be major changes between 4th and previous editions including the rules system and setting elements ie vampires having been changed somehow, to start what is basically a third line of Vampire from the same company.
So they now have V20, for those who like classic Masquerade, and Blood and Smoke, also know less imaginatively as VtR 2nd edition, directed for those who want a bit different Vampires and were fans of the original VtR and prefer the nWoD system and soon we’ll have a V4th that apparently tries to fish both fans by making what is a basically third kind of Vampire. That just sounds a bit excessive. Three separate Vampire games from the same company.
I guess I just am kind of disappointed about this direction the Onyx Path has embarked upon.
Even system wise we can currently with official material play VtM with two systems, the classic/polished classic of V20 and earlier and nWoD 1st edition, thanks to the VtM conversion guide, which could easily be updated with a second edition to add nWoD 2nd edition system to the list. And with the DAV20 line we basically have a yet another system for playing vampires, again just a few minor tweaks to the classic system but such tweaks can make all the difference. So again I fail to see why would we need yet another system to play Vampires.
I’m going to assume that you missed reading any of the blog posts I’ve written about why we need this edition, and I’ll briefly hit on one aspect of our reasons: we, as the creators of books for V20, have found that it is not designed to allow for supplements that can grow the game line as we feel it needs to grow. V20 gives you a big book filled with some minor rules and setting tweaking, but mostly it encapsulates and celebrates VtM as it was. That is what V20 was originally designed to do, and it fulfills that design masterfully.
For Masquerade to grow and get new players, we need to be able to have an edition that is accessible to those players – as well as our awesome current audience. We have tried multiple creative options with the V20 supplements we’ve published to create the sorts of books that will enable V20 to move in that direction, and it became obvious to me that the very aspects of V20 that make it such a great compilation of past editions also throw up creative blockers if we want to make the game something that will grow.
I agree. One of my biggest issues with V20 was it essentially just ignored everything Revised onwards, and that also made it not the massive encompassing book I wanted. W20 and especially M20 seemed to fix that, but it still left V20 very incomplete.
However, what I think the original point was getting at was that when WotC wanted to restart their settings, they did massive, world changing events that basically removed a lot of what fans loved about the setting and also made the setting unique. It started with Dragonlance, where the Second Cataclysm, Chaos War, and the Dragon Overlords basically altered the setting into something that might as well be entirely new. Some liked it, most didn’t. A similar thing happed with 4E Forgotten Realms, where they advanced the setting by decades or centuries, killed off a lot of notable characters, and even literally imported a new continent in so they could pigeonhole in the Dragonborn. We do not want that to happen here, and this weak Gehenna idea that came and went feels very similar.
First of all, thank you Rich for your response.
I have read some of those blogs, if not all, but I still find myself disagreeing with the premise. Or I am perhaps stupid enough not to get it.
I do understand that V20 is somewhat hard to approach for a newcomer to the World of Darkness due to it’s massive size and the sheer amount of information fitted to it. Yet I do not find that a new edition is an elegant solution to the matter. Why? Simply because the new edition must in some way also possess and handle all that same information that is found within V20 which means that to make it more approachable the only way is to go back to traditional style where the Core only contains the core information, that is the Camarilla and perhaps some surface information about the Sabbat and all the rest is pushed into supplements. And yes of course from a business stand point this means yet another series of Guide to the Sabbat etc. to sell and so the number of sold books increases compared to V20 since everyone will need to buy more books to get the same information inherent in that compilation.
The more elegant, and still boosting your book sales, way might be to chop V20 into smaller pieces for the newcomers to buy to make it more approachable. Of course for this to make any sense the price should be held a bit lower since it shouldn’t be ridiculously more expensive to buy in parts than as a whole.
As for the creative blocks… I cannot see it. If one cannot get creative within the premise of V20, that is VtM brought to modern age but without a metaplot running behind it, I simply cannot see how anyone can be creative with VtR2nd since that also is basically metaplotless series set in the modern times about Vampires.
The only way this reasoning for a new edition is valid would be if your writers want to change, and use the Gehenna as an excuse for such changes, some basic premises of the setting. That is they wish to remove some Clans/Bloodlines or to create new ones. But then again if that is the case perhaps you should just make a completely new Vampire game to compete with Masquerade and Requiem since such large changes to the setting risk alienating long time fans as they can cause the game to change enough that it doesn’t feel like the same setting/game anymore and yet is too close to VtM to be enjoyed as a new thing as well.
You have been able to make a V20 book of Ghouls, Clans, Bloodlines, Tal’Mahe’Ra the last of which is already taking a big step to new territory, while still respecting the past I presume, and if that is possible with V20, to make a brilliant book about the Tal’Mahe’Ra that not only makes them more playable, interesting and less gonzo than they were, I simply fail to see what would be impossible with it.
All this talk about the vampires being changed by the passing Gehenna just reeks of trying to change the fundamentals about setting while still clinging on to the name Masquerade in an attempt to lure the fanbase of VtM to this new game.
I am truly sorry but this is how it all seems to me.
If you are not about to change VtM to something it has not been, that is all that V20 encompasses and it does encompass Revised as well in in notes and boxes if nowhere else, then I fail to see a need for a new edition and if you are changing the fundamentals of VtM then I fail to see why leave it half way done and not just make a completely new Vampire game about it with no ties to VtM.
That should also allow for so much creative freedom that such blocks should not be a concern. There are plenty of Vampiric myths in the world that are left untouched or only passingly referred in VtM or VtR and you could easily use those to make a completely new Vampire line ready to stand on it’s own two feet.
I would basically take the chance to do a shake-up and reboot of the Sects, Clans and Bloodlines. Shake things up. Modernize it. Redraw the battle lines over new conflicts and create new alliances based on what the new conflict is. Shuffle things around.
Some ideas:
– Salubri basically replace Tremere having taken them over from within
– New sects
– Lasombra or Tzimisce alliances with other clans
– A bloodline (Baali?) gets full clan status to replace Ravnos
– Harbingers replace the Giovanni with the seeds of a new Cappadocian clan
– I feel like the new world would be a lot less Camarilla and a lot more Sabbat approach. But basically disintegrate the old sects and create new ones along new power lines
Basically a completely New World Order, with the old archetypes reimagined for a wholly new period of history…
I love the Salubri and Capadocian ideas. Not so much the rest.
I love VtM and the cWoD as a whole as a Setting and I would hate for VtM-IV to change the Setting and have it post-Gehenna or something like that. For all I care, ignore that Gehenna happened and port VtM into the 21th century but not change to much of the Setting.
What I would love is a whole redesign of the rules, however. Difficulties should only vary in a small window (like between 5 and 9, with 7 being standard). Everything else is to unpredictable. Combat really needs to become faster. Attributes could benefit from the nWoD set. As do many other mechanics. Exalted would also be a good source for some mechanical tweaks. And ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ for a social “combat” system.
But I would like to keep the Clans as is, and their fear or ignorance for Gehenna. I would hate a setting change to a post Gehenna world…
Well said.
Seconded.
The idea of Classic World of Darkness as a setting in its own right would be interesting – like nWoD to an extent but much less toolboxy, just having the mortal world as somewhere all the splats converge, or orbit. The setting would then be the official mortal take on what happened, the notion that with the red star, rumours of angels and monsters and projection technology ala Orpheus, plus all the ‘mundane’ news reports we got in that Year of Judgement ticker that suggested terrible things were happening the world over, that it might just be the end of the world. Then separate splat books could then detail signs of relevence to the various gamelines, or specific takes on those events.
Maybe a little ambitious but, at the very least, working out the mortal world’s armagheddon, and recovery, will build a solid foundation upon which to flesh out Vampire’s Gehenna, Werewolf’s Apocalypse etc. If starting afresh it’s worth working with the foresight that there will be several interconnected mythologies rather than the organic way the myths sprung up as the original lines were evolving. That’s not to say they can’t contradict each other, and that one ‘truth’ can’t trump another, just that it’d be nice if the effects are clear enough to identify even if the causes are not.
I would like to see the setting in the “near future”, perhaps 2030-2050. No space ships or crazy advanced tech or anything like that, but where the human environment has changed and affected the Cainite world.
Perhaps, America and Europe have completely destabilize and broken up into city states. Maybe African countries have stable economies and are the new immigrant hot-spots. It could be that Islam has become the #1 world religion and that change is reflected in many societies. Perhaps this has even caused a standstill in technological development or even a boon.
How have the humans dealt with global warming, food shortages, nuclear escalation, dwindling resources and health issues? All of these things will affect older kindred and mold the minds of younger ones.
Others can make suggestions about the Vampires and Kindred society, but it’s the mortal world that defines where the immortals fit in.
The antediluvians woke up hungry.. But after their thirsts were sated, they set to the task of reordering the world that once was.
The masquerade is stronger than ever; the kine live in a world of fear and paranoia, where terrorists abound, magic and religion is once again on the rise, economies are failing and hope has fled the world.
But this isn’t the world the Camarilla envisioned when the council dreamed up the masquerade. Kindred were meant to rule the night, not serve in the shadows of their ungodly masters. Were the Sabbat right all along?
The Sabbat has its own problems; with no clan leaders to shelter them, its members are hunted to the fringe of society. The moral victory is hollow in a world without morals. Perhaps the only way to claw back to the top is through a perilous alliance with disillusioned camarilla flunkies; or perhaps it’s better to go out in a hail of gunfire.
The Vampire world is on its head: everyone is a slave. The jyhad is no longer a game, it’s the only way to survive in a political chessboard between militant gangs controlled by godly alien beasts. Only the most politically savvy will be able to maneuver through the quagmire of ancient grudges, and only the most powerful will weather the storm of conflict on the horizon. Because the ancient clan leaders are militarizing their clans; they’re getting ready for something.
But if Gehenna already happened… What in God’s name is still to come?
*notes: the eldest of each clan wakes and takes direct control, reorganizing the clan and getting ready for war. It’s not necessarily the same 2nd and 3rd gen vampires, as some died. However their replacements may pretend to be the originals, one can never know. They’re out of touch and alien, so reorganizing is a slow and difficult process, involving a lot of politics, and power plays for favor in the new regime. It’s a bit like a civil war amongst the camarilla, while the sabbat yells “i told you so” ineffectually.
I’m inspired by the way the Giovanni and Tremere clans are run. The setting is the result of the consensus abandoning science (which caused the ancient antediluvians to sleep in the first place) and a return to religion and superstition, which allows the occult to return to the world.
The inter clan rivalry allows for a lot of politics at all levels on the chain, so even low level kindred have an impact in local politics, while being thankful that they don’t have to interact with the monsters in charge.
TLDR: antediluvians wake up, become the new overlords, unlife is hard.
Here is my contribution.
Since Gehena come and go it means something happen a long the way that the Vampires didn’t anticipate. If Gehenna happened a long the sametime as Apocalyps and Ascension there could be a lot of ripple effects in the same pool. This are a few of my ideas:
1. “Wormwood” started to happen, God started to judge the Kindread and their sins but a Third Party took the oportunity to change the games and maybe alter the Kindred for ever. A number of different things could do such a thing and that scale. From Eikos who apparently could be older that Lilith and has an unknow agenda, to the Weaver who started to raise in Apocalypse and has a thing for “static” enitities and even and Archmage. The point is Gehenna did happen but not with a boom but with a whisper in the air and everthing changed.
2.Kindread and their Pride. Vampires think themselves above humanity since they feed on them. This Pride made the Antidiluvians, Lilith and all Kindred arrogant and forgot the power in numbers. The reason to hide from human eyes was fear, and with good reasons. As Gehenna/Apocalypse/Ascension happend around the world too many conflicts rise and humanity catch their predators. Yes the Thin Blood happened not because the actually Blood lost its power is because now the number of Vampires is even lesser than before. Clans diseappear and Sects disolve in to the air… vampires changed but not their curse but their sects, how they hide, how they do things i totally diferent now.
3. Looking in to the future could be seen as a straight line. The Book of Nod was that, a line but time is not a line is a Wheel. The Wheel of ages has turn, Gehenna did happen, darkness try to took it all for itself and even vampires were worried about it, they fear the darkness within their blood, consume by pride, sloth, wrath, lust, envy, gluttony and greed. 7 of the 13 clans disepear(ventrue, giovanni, assamite, toreador, tzimice, tremere, Settite), consume by a silence battle between their antidiluvians. As they consume each other their Clans curse changed until just one remained. Darkness came and feed and try to take it all. Two things could happen in this scenarion
3.1 A new clan has arrived and wants it all for itself.
3.2 Darkness came, feed and dissapear as it came. Not only it just diseapear. The Darkness night of the World of Darkness has passed and the world is still standing. What is worst for the vampires… the Day is coming and with it the vampires fear it more than the night.
This are the kind of things I would want to see, game changers enterily. The destruction of not a few clans but several of them. The destruction or disolving of the Sects. And the repercutions this has not only in Kindred society but also in the world as a whole, either changing the percepction of humans of that the ripple effects of Gehenna hitting every other line and viceversa.
Make the Gehenna like Vlad Tepes says in the second edition prologue: a vague, cyclical event that happens from time to time (2k years?). This time, some antedeluvians wake (who? how much? keep it vague), eat/manipulate/talk some of their children and then went to sleep again. The cycle is reset, all begins anew.
This approach of a post-Gehenna V:tm that isn’t post-apocalyptic has made me quite excited about Vtm E4, whatever direction it takes.
As for ways the setting and metaplot should bend to account for this, well… As read here the wishes and ideas are many. So here are my opinions on some issues I think needs to be considered regarding Gehenna, NOD and metaplot.
1. I like Joss Whedon’s way of circumventing prophecies in Buffy. The “There is not one singular apocalypse, there are many possible apocalypses”-sentiment should work perfectly for whatever it is you ultimately have in mind for the Vtm E4-metaplot. Keeping the prophecis of NOD still lingering, with many/most questions still unanswered (and hopefully more created by what happened during “Gehenna”), will keep players on the toes. As others have pointed out, the threat of final judgement and the end of days(/nights) has been a vital part of Masquerade and should still be. There needs to be mysteries out there. Threats that even the immortals fear. In a way, maybe noddism suddenly becomes more important even within the Camarilla, causing internal stress within that sect…
2. Talking about sects, no matter what happens during Gehenna none of the sects should remain the same afterwards. Both Camarilla and Sabbat should take a huge hit politically and in numbers. While I think wholeheartedly the setting still wold gain the most if these sects still exists as important and powerful fractions, a new order should make the foundations for both sects tremble quite a bit. Maybe the events of Gehenna could even force the more secretive sects, like the Tal’Mahe’Ra and Inconnu come out into light more officially as both potent and important players in the vampire night to night-life. And making the anarchs numbers grow and increasing conflict that way is something the new setting would gain a lot from.
3. Who were really the big players, the true movers behind the scene, during this Gehenna? Caine? Lilith? Antediluvians? Infernalists? Cosmic forces, like angels, God or “Souleaters”? Other supernatural forces of the extreme? Threats that make vampires really question their own existence and motives no doubt. Maybe Gehenna reveals there really were (or are) more than 13 antediluvians? Maybe it is revealed someone of the second gen still exists? Considering much of the material you published in recent books like Children of the Revolution, Dread Names and the upcoming Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra it would make sense if Lilith and/or infernalists played a huge role on whatever went down. And somehow a schism among vampires in general wanting to shift into viewing Lilith as their origin instead of Caine could create lots of plot opportunities and a more dynamic setting.
4. As for infernalists, I really like how Rites of Blood and Dread Names put a lot of focus on them. Having them become a huge threat that is not only a matter for the Sabbat, but everyone, helps create more interesting internal sect, clan and city conflicts as well as temptations. Also, vampires and demons mix well when you’re writing stories, so having them gain ground post-Gehenna as potential antagonists wouldn’t be a bad thing. Vampires are evil from a human perspective, but pointing towards demons the vampires can keep telling themselves they are more humane, because they aren’t as bad as those devil worshipping dudes. Also, anyone can run the errands of demons, not only bloodsuckers. There’s lot to draw from there.
5. As for the effects of Gehenna, I think there should be some culling of the ranks of vampires. Not a genocide, but something that weakens all sects and keep the numbers lower than they were in the 90’s. As for the status of thinbloods, I think some should still hang around, causing even more fear now as harbingers of a second future Gehenna. Elders should take some hit too, it wouldn’t be right to let just neonates take the beating.
6. Keep Kupala out of Gehenna. And Ambrogino/Augustus. Both TC and GC might be unfinished, but both those chronicles would rather gain from being finished by ST’s themselves or within newly written stories taking place during or after Gehenna. That’s one of the grave mistakes Revised did, especially in TC; they let the novels declare what happened, having players more of spectators rather than agents that actually could affect the outcome and matter. Don’t do that again, let the fate of the world hang in the hands of ST’s and players, not novel authors.
7. And in that spirit, make a new Gehenna chronicle/story. Maybe something in line with how the Ventrue Chronicles were set up, letting players experience the transformation of the world, the big events, not just reading about it in a rule book.
8. Don’t kill the masquerade. Vampires and humans walking hand in hand would kinda ruin the soul of the game. But maybe let forces like Arcanum or Project Twilight be more on the edge after Gehenna? (I assume the Inquisition always stay vigilant against vampires as it is).
This is probably my favorite answer to your actual question, Eddy.
A Gehenna Chronicle in the style of the Ventrue Chronicles would actually be very cool.
What I’d like to see in the updated metaplot post-Gehenna are as follows:
1. Augustus Giovanni: While Augustus was in the Shadowlands, the Wraith of Cappadocius boots out the soul of Augustus (similar to what Saulot did to Tremere in Nights of Prophecy) and then inhabits Augustus’ body.
2. Caine: He astrally wakes with the 6th Great Maelstrom (this is the exact nature of the Red Star manifested). He uses the Red Star to observe the actions of his descendants. Additionally, he used the RS to search for any signs of Lilith.
3. Lilith: She wakes fully with the 6th Great Maelstrom. Her motives are still unknown.
This is only a partial list… I’ll come up with more later.
In the Gehenna novel, the Lasombra Antedilluvian was released, The Withering started soon there after. I’ve always thought The Withering was caused by Lasombra feeding off the Kindred from the shadows. They wouldn’t know he was there and couldn’t fight him. It would interesting if the Sabbat and Camarilla went after him together and found a way to either kill him or seal him up again. This would cause many to start believing in the Cain mythos, but still leave enough unanswered questions that the different sects and scholars would still be searching for answers.
I would like to see kind of a setting where there are very few vampires left and they are struggling to rebuild vampiric society. Kind of your typical post-apocalyptic setting, only the vampires are the only ones who suffered the apocalypse. Humans went right on trucking.
I’d also like to see most of the bloodlines gone, and go back to just the main clans, perhaps including some of the Laibon as “main clans” now. Unless there are plans to better combine the game lines in the future (which would surprise me greatly), I’d rather not see the game reflect the Garou’s Apocalypse or the mage’s Ascension, etc. I want Gehenna to be a vampire-only event, maybe showing they aren’t as important or powerful as they all thought.
I would also like to see an ongoing Gehenna. The major cataclysm (be it antediluvians, wormwood, etc.) has come and gone, but there was no final judgement and no one is secure about what will happen next. Maybe now vampire scholars look at more than the myth of Caine since the old ways of understanding were invalidated by the end not quite happening. It should have something of a Y2K feel to it–and vampire society should be irrevocable changed because of it.
I think the clans and systems for Humanity and the Paths of Enlightenment should remain, but that the sects themselves should be in shambles. Most vampires should be independent since the “truths” offered by the sects didn’t pan out. There could also be new major players offering their own “truths” to help followers make sense of it all.
Hello Eddy, hello fellow fans
some things that reside in my head about Gehenna:
1. Imagine loss of power supply… or just the loss of the internet… Today the world is so reliant on elecricity and internet that most people would be up the creek without them. When I cycle through my hometown I see 90% of the people glued to their smartphones. The young people seem like the only thing they know is how to google things. And the same would happen to the Kindred… Without all the technlogy that makes the (un)live easy and the tools for manipulating the herd (TV, social media etc…) the young vampires would feel like thrown back to he stone age and the minimal older vampires would think “Back when I fought the yankees at Gettysburg, we didn’t need ye facesomethin and mobile phones. We only had our hands our comrades and a trusty rifle.”, ultimately the methuselae would think “Who dares to wake me from my slumber? Oh, they already started to kill each other, might as well have have a drink or two, I am hungray as hell!”… see where I’m comming from? The old ones would be more than glad once the internet or power supply is offline.
2. Another thing I’d like to see are some tips/tools/small plot hooks to show the players what happens to the other supernatural creatures from the vampire perspective. Should the Vampires really be the only ones to draw the short straw?
3. Ou of personal interest I like to see how the watcher salubri made their way as imposters into the different clans and sects, taking over/controlling key positions and (with saulot as the leader/on best intend fo saulot) take back the rightful place as a clan and inviting their brethren from the warriors and healers.
4. Give the Storyteller tools or hinds to play a post-Gehenna chronicle. In the old Gehenna book was an attempt at that but I was not really satisfied as far as I could recall it.
Than you all for your attention
Well I want the following:
1. still set in the mortal world, as is, Gehenna came and went but did not really affect the mortal world.
2. Yes kindred society would have been changed a lot.
3. Sabbat yah still in existence and yes still fighting the antedelluvians and still paranoid but it has become moderated in its politics, Lasombra and Tzimisce while still numerous in the clan(relatively speaking) are not the majority anymore having lost much prestige and numbers(since their antedelluvians were proven to be still alive), lost political power, civil war occurs which the antitribu now hold the reigns of power esp. the Brujah. Organization disorganized due to the chaos of gehenna and civil war.
4. Camarilla still there, in fact, still politically powerful due to its hold on mortal power structures and excellent organization it survived Gehenna better than the Sabbat despite being proven wrong in the existence of antedelluvians.
5. Anarchs , became stronger. In fact to the point it has become a larger credible third force in Kindred politics. Though still disorganized when compared to the Sabbat and Camarilla, its actually probably same size or bigger than the other 2.
6. Tal Mareha or True Black Hand, still around, but greatly reduced in power, numbers and influene. Inconnu still around, watching things.
7. Independents. Messed up situation for all the Independents. Assamites, civil war within the clan, between those loyal to ur shulgi and those not. massive losses defections to the Camarilla, sabbat anarchs,maybe even Alamut destroyed by the fighting. , Giovanni, also in chaos, Giovanni corporation in chaos with family clan members figting for control, Followers of Set, many destroyed, infighting after their god is kaput. Ravnos, strangely the most stable of the independents since they had their gehenna earlier than everyone else.
One of the things I liked best from the Gehenna book was the scene with Caine in it. His problems, his motivations, his very nature, all of that was very tied to his humanity. That’s what I would like to see taken further in the new edition. The most basic theme of Vampire is humanity (or capital H Humanity), and that should be what Gehenna was ultimately about. So I’d like to see the Antediluvians appear as people with very human weaknesses and motives, and Gehenna shown as their struggle with humanitas rather than world-ending master plots. Ultimately, any redemption of Caine and/or Antediluvians should be about that, and certainly not about God or any other divine being. I also feel like the setting needs to move beyond the Judeo-Christian bias, for instance by proving some of the Noddist lore wrong, sort of like David Hill has been hinting about in VDA20.
To answer you question Eddy i’d say concentrate on the following:
1) The Withering – The blood of Caine starts to behave wonky, making Elders less powerful but also allow younger generations to grow in power (not just in numbers). The Elders try to keep their power by massivly diablerize youngers, keeping younger vampires in penns/kennels/whatever.
This means a second (third) anarch revolt resulting in the death of alot of elders and youngsters. This could also explain a change in the mechanics of Generation i will come back to this later (1).
2) Antediluvians waking up – I’d like to see this simply as “A couple of them woke, fucked shit up and then went back to sleep. Maybe the Sabbat actually managed to take one of them down (or so they think).
3) Jenna Cross and the Thinbloods – I loved this when i read Gehenna: The Final Night and i’d love to see them actually creating their own sect/fraction.
Now about the aftermath of Gehenna.
As i mentioned previously i think something should be done with Generation. I hate that the only way to increase it is via Diablerie. I’d like to see something more like Blood Potency and making Generation a 1-7 pt Social/Supernatural Merit instead. The merit gives you a higher starting Blood Potency. It also gives you something of a social bonus towards other vampires that recognize closeness to the First Vampire as something good.
Alot of other things but i don’t want to write a too big wall of text
Actually, i can recommend that you Eddy read through this thread on the forums:
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/610856-changes-new-thing-we-want-to-see-in-the-new-edition
“Assuming Gehenna came and went, leaving the Kindred changed but not eradicated, what events are interesting or exciting enough to reference in this new edition?”
I think some kind of final resolution to the Saulot/[Tzimisze]/Tremere situation should be implied. That was so chock full of plot potential that it would be hard to “move past” Gehenna and Revised if it were left hanging. I wouldn’t give a nitty-gritty resolution, but put a nail in the coffin.
Similarly, I have always disliked the idea of so many Antediluvians never surviving to see Gehenna. What if some of the “dead” Antes either come back, or at least evidence suggests they aren’t really dead. The shadows of skyscrapers reach down to devour ancient Lasbombra, in what is perhaps an act of vengeance for the destruction of the Eldest. Or maybe Cappadocious wanted to experience death, and so let himself be killed, but he never intended to stay dead?
Finally, the final disposition of Ur-Shulgi and his crusade to nom all the vamps is necessary. That character just feels like such an apocalyptic force that I would want to see some mention of it.
Really looking forward to a definitively new version of Vampire.
Some ideas, sorry the bad english:
– The Red Star is God coming to the Earth, the demiurgue dont want that his Earth is destroyed by Antediluvians fighting each other.
The demiurgue make a pact with Caine, he forgive Caine but he must pacificate the angry Antediluvians. Now, Caine have a little army of archangels.
The Antediluvians united cant fight the power of Caine, perhaps his power levels are reduced because of the Withering or are prohibited by the new Caine.
The Antediluvians only can intrigue and use puppets, the Masquerade is preserved and the world continues with new players…
– The Withering is a disease created by the Technocracy that now hunt actively the kindred.
– The Demiurgue is a God of Conflict, he feeds with the energy of good/evil fighting (like the God of the Old/New testament is a creator/destructive god…or benefactor/destroyer like Shiva). The lords of the Nephandus and Malfeans know this and want to kill the Demiurgue and restart the world and be the rulers in a new hellish word. The Wyrm are corrupted by the Malfeans and is only a puppet.
Use Gehenna as an excuse to kill Caine.
Use his death to end the generation system.
Use Blood Potency.
PLEASE
Use updated Requiem systems with the Masquerade setting.
That’s all everyone wants.
That’s a customer alienating idea and hardly what everyone wants. If that’s what you want just play requiem and import the masquerade setting.
And why would killing Caine end the generation system? Sires have died plenty before and it’s never had any effect on the generation of the vampires they sired.
“That’s all everyone wants.”
A VERY biased assumption, at the very least. The fact people from your entourage and yourself might share these desires doesn’t make the rest of the VtM players align with these views.
Please DO NOT d9 this.
I personally didn’t care much for the whole Gehenna timeline. It was like putting an expiration date on immortal creatures. Didn’t quite right with me.
What I do care about in this conversation is what this will or rather won’t do to what I define as Vampire the Masquerade.
I really hope that the essence of Vampire, Ie, the clans, the personal horror, the struggle between Camarilla and Sabbat, remains.
Basically all the nuts and bolts of the Masquerade remains. What you do with the story of that post-Gehenna world is up to you. I know I won’t use it, since Gehenna was never a thing for my players and me.
If Gehenna is forced upon us…. no… please don’t.
As I’ve mentioned before: I am way more interested in a total revamp of the rules. the NWoD rulessystem is so much better than the old storyteller.
Anyhooo… those are my thoughs on Gehenna. I don’t have any. I don’t care for it.
Which I hope is valid feedback too.
“I personally didn’t care much for the whole Gehenna timeline. It was like putting an expiration date on immortal creatures. Didn’t quite right with me.”
This. If you want to use Gehenna-as-a-culling-cycle underline that this is the beginning of a new era, where every vampire has experienced Gehenna and its scars will take long to heal, if ever. Some are survivors, some are newcomers who have entered the world of the Damned in the middle of Gehenna or right after it. No one knows how long it will take this time before the next culling begins and the perspective of staring into the ocean of infinity, in whose unfathomable depths its sharks – the Antediluvians – swim only to attack at some point of your journey across its dark waters is horrifying to say the least. The message the player should get from the corebook is: “You’ve become an immortal (for new characters)/You’ve survived against all odds (for old characters) and you have an eternity before you to prepare yourself for the inevitable, to indulge yourself before the inevitable comes or find an out-of-the-box-solution to the inevitable. For that you will need resources, you will need allies and most importantly, you will need BLOOD. The game begins tonight. What is your first move?”
Events to reference:
The increase in the thin bloods.
The Week of Nightmares and decimation of the Ravnos.
The events with the Tremere and their antitribu in Nights of Prophecy,although hopefully there’s still some pyramid structure.
Anarchs increasing in power as a sect as in Anarchs Unbound.
Hmmm what would i do with gehenna if i were you? Well i never liked the caine part of the story being true, but then again i find vtm to be a little to euro centric in that area. So ideally i would have liked the antideluvians to rise up and consume most of their oldest childe and you know do their fighting and stuff, but at the same time i would have liked for the caine myth to have been disproved. It would have been a major victory and a blow to the sabbat and the camarilla both since without caine the sabbat loses a lot of their spiritual purpose along with the now defeated antideluvians. The camarilla would lose face and a lot of their leadership in this event which would be rather unfortunate for them. Very bare bones, but i think this idea is my ideal scenario.
Second and more plausible idea is having Caine and Lillith fight using everything from young neonates to ancient antediluvians in their final battle which would end with both of them dying or at least be smacked deeep deeep deeeep into torpor. I also like the idea of antideluvians being diablerised during this event Monty Coven or Joseph Pander diablerising one being an appealing idea to me.
I do however hope that whatever happens in the gehenna scenario god is not involved. Second i hope that all the independent clans and even bloodlines become more relevant in the jyhad after gehenna.Having all the clans + bloodlines who it makes sense for being more active and direct players in the Jyhad is an immensly satisfying idea to me.
I like a lot of what is being suggested, the event strikes at and at least partially resolves something for each game line. That being said, Gehenna as a leap forward in Vampire specifically should probably resolve and force some clans into different roles, different categories even.
1) God’s Mercy – What if one or two clans actually received a blessing from God. Lessening the curse of Caine on them? Say the Malkavians madness was lessened individually, but their bond via the so called madness network was strengthened to the point that this mass network now became their flaw. While Malks still may have a derangement, their actual flaw is that in times of stress/joy/solitude/ take your pick based on a characters nature, the network over comes them. They see thru each other’s eyes, hear conversations across the world….
And due the God, or something else like a God, Salulot comes forth. House and Clan Tremere are still here, still powerful in thaumaturgy but now, there is the re-emergence of the Salubri, and they have Thaum.
And just like God being able to take a hand in some, the Demons, or the things from beyond are able to reach out and warp a clan or two.. Lasombra, Maybe Gangrel, totally Tzimisce. The Lasomra realize they have to break from their church based hiding, As their power and flaw now emotes the negative energies of the Abyss at all times. Mostly it’s a slight ever present flaw — plants wither around them, a constant chill in the air, Lesser beings or beings of no willpower cower in their presence.
One thing I think I owuld like to see, is that Vampirism, throughout the world, is both brought out,either into the light, or into the sun light. Eastern Kindred Kuei-jin enter into full battle mode against the Western Kindred, The African Dark Vampires are fully realized to those in the know, while many Western Kindred can now walk in the sun albeit with less powers, while those that cannot fit everything the mortal world now knows about what a Vampire is.
Ok, I think my previous post got lost.
So, here it goes.
Keep the Camarila and Sabbat, but both sects have to redefine and respond now to the events of Gehenna. For Gehenna, no matter if there is a big world wide black out, more mortals, even some in powerful positions have figured it out. in that way, the reactions of the two main sects either re-enforce their traditions to near paranoia out of self-preservation: Camarilla. Or break away to almost looking for exposure, looking for the fight- Sabbat.
In that way, stories can continue with the Sects and the sect interactions intact. But, now there is this new element, above all else the Camarilla is concerned with the Masquerade. Hiding from mortals, keeping their sources of wealth and power.
The Sabbat sees the governments that have started to hunt them, as the next big issue. So, the Sabbat does what it does, and acts with violence.
Independents, and the more hidden sects can come into more of a playable arena. These are the clans and groups that maybe seek to turn the mortal power structures back to what they were, seeking to “convince the world, the Devil doesn’t exist” so to speak.
Internally, I would hope to see many clans slightly changed, while not giving away there is a God, or there is a Caine. Somehow, the blood is now different and is creating more bloodlines unlike when Malks went from Dominate to Dementation, but as if Malk’s now had two fully realized bloodlines, only the powers of the blood wasn’t passed on by sire, but by some unknown agency. (Player choice)
Brazil’^^’: Would be nice with A bit of each scenario for a conclusive outcome. I don’t want the end of the Mask.
Wow, there’s a lot of good discussion going on already. While mulling over the idea of V4, it was difficult to not engage in some ‘compare and contrast’ with VtR, especially with the mention that there will be an eye towards preventing too much convergence. With this in mind, I realized that VtM has a much more noticeable clan focus than VtR, and I like that. Both games have clans, but they seem less important in VtR, probably due to the antediluvians lurking in the VtM metaplot which gives a stronger anchor to clan identity and mythos. This all said, I think V4 should maintain and strengthen clan cohesiveness and lineage as a defining part of the game, and not simply which disciplines you have easy access to and which flaw you get. Being enmeshed with and responsible for your clan can help stress a ‘sins of the father’ feel, which seems to fit the entire ‘descent from Caine’ mythos of VtM.
I think it would be interesting to do something about the relationship beetween Clan Tremere and True Mages.
Perhaps they got in Order of Hermes again, even as Vampires, or something mixed. Or perhaps they became Technocracy partners, in the case of helping to keep the masquerede saved, once it would be interesting to Technocracy that humanity still ignore supernatural activity.
Some thoughts:
1) My personal favorite of the Gehenna events was the Global Shattering of The Masquerade. Such an event would feel like Gehenna, with a great culling of Cainites. The remaining few exist in paranoia, as humankind are more likely to respond to Cainite activity.
2) Whichever Gehenna occurs, the sects (Camarilla, Sabbat, Anarchs, New Promise Mandarinate, Independants) will be shaken up. Possibility of having a more cosmopolitan Cainite society (similar to VtR) where the sects coexist? Their outlook would be altered by the anti-climactic Gehenna (I’m looking at you Sabbat and Setites).
3) Clans should also emerge … different. The influence of the Antedeluvians reached a peak, then faded. Do Malkavians still have the Madness Network? Have forgotten clans/bloodlines returned?
3a) House Tremere especially should emerge drastically altered, based on how many Antes were messing with them. Perhaps split into 3 distinct bloodlines? Tremere & Goratrix have a cadre of True Tremere, a splinter emerges as a Salubri Bloodline, and a third as a Tzimisce bloodline? Do the three bloodlines cooperate or do they resent each other’s presence?
4) I also would hope we’d eventually get V4 KoE. The Sixth Age arrives with less fanfare than anticipated; what does this mean for the future of the Wan Kuei?
The idea that Gehenna came and went is anathema to the basic themes of the line. The punk essence of vampire is about all this ancient stuff being on the *precipice* of the abyss, a rotten system about to collapse from its own contradictions. The Gothic theme is about this ancient society, an undead THING that has lingered on in the shadows, preying on the living (and treating the young/PC types like pawns).
If Gehenna is a big fat nothingburger, then the punk essence of the line is compromised. It just goes on and on like this, world without end, amen.
If Gehenna is a world-changing event then the static, oppressive nature of the system is compromised. The whole apple-cart just got shaken up and now we’re dealing with the aftermath. Even with the weakest version of the Withering, the gothic half of the gothic-punk setting is largely jettisoned.
More, a lot of the essence of the energy of the original WoD lines came from the fin de siecle imminence of an apocalypse– being ‘immortal’ in a world where you couldn’t just wait your turn. Even if you never used it in play, it was there as a part of the theme and setting, essential to the feel of the game.
Please– support the idea that the sword of Damocles is still out there. I really don’t want Gehenna to be a thing of the past.
Not necessarily. “Gothic-Punk” atmosphere can be maintained in a post-Gehenna scenario. Think the cyberpunk feel of Nihilism: undeath losing meaning, the future holds the stasis of Eternity, and then the after-effects of Gehenna could still make unlife precarious.
-what Purpose will ex-Sabbat have now that their raison d’être is no more?
-mankind itself is still on the brink of extinction; how can Undead Monsters maintain their food source?
-Cainites are still predators, scrambling for resources nightly with each other. Undead politics remain as the sword hovering above them.
I liked the idea of Caine coming back and the prophecies of nod fulfilled, I think that the clan’s connection through Caine being severed, might be interesting. Generation’s gone, replaced with a BP style system, as all the curses set forth by the father of the damned have been removed. I don’t think all the clan’s should have survived but I don’t exactly know how that might work. Just some spit-balling.
Some events off the top of my head that I would like to see mentioned:
* The Week of Nightmares. A clan was nearly destroyed. That’s a pretty significant event in leading up to Gehenna, proving that the Antediluvians were real, and very very hungry.
* The Time of Thin Blood. Thin-blooded vampires that have mortal children? The time of thin blood has been a prophecy since the first printing of the Book of Nod. It deserves mention in my opinion.
* The Withering. Those closest to Caine find the gifts of the blood failing them, with diablerie being the only thing that can stave off the sickness. It’s a nice contrast to the Time of Thin Blood.
* The Red Sign. A cabal of Kindred and Mages managed to undo the Curse of Caine. The Redeemed may still be out there.
* The Endless Night. Clan Giovanni was going to tear down the Shroud that separated the living from the dead. How’s that been working out for them? Are they still going at it?
One of the best things on all the gamelines is how they exist referencing to real world events. Like the WWII being like a Technocracy failed plan or the Soviet Union being controlled by Brujah and maintained isolated throughout the Cold War by the powers of Baba Yaga. That’s the kind o f thing that entertains as an alternate history but also serves as a basic scenario for chronicles set in different times.
That said, I think the best approach to figure out what happened during the Gehenna is to pick something that really happened around the world on the last 15 years. I say, the last big historic events. It would also help turning the game not so US-centric.
Suggestions:
-The Camarilla is strong as never in Europe, specially in the Euro-Zone, but have to deal with the Sabbat who are now in charge of Russia. Also, Greece is almost falling i the hands of the Anarchs these days.
-Some Antediluvians awakened, causing havoc on New Orleans, Haiti and Fukushima.
-The War on Terror was actually a world-wide Camarilla effort to find and destroy an antediluvian who awakened in the Middle-East and could wipe-out all of the kindred.
-The Arab Spring could be a power-shift event that took the Setites out of Egypt and nearby countries.
Anyway, I know theses ideas are far from good, I’ve just tossed them to illustrate the approach. It would be well received by world-wide players!
This would be a really neat idea – a way to ground the setting in reality despite the fact Gehenna has rocked the Kindred world. Of course you don’t want to trivialize some of this, but it helps make the world one we recognise.
Every time my team of players discuss about Gehenna, I always said that it wasn’t the ending, but the beginning. I think all the profecies are wrong, and Kain didn’t came back, the antidelluvians didn’t killed their children, but instead… they modify them. One of the thing I like to believe is that Malkav take the body of a vampire (but not a malkavian) and used it, transmutate it, and create a new way of the crazy. Now the Jihad is more like a social play and not a berserker war of powerful cainites.
Hello Everyone!
The Week of Nightmares has some cool stuff… Like Technocracy killing Ravnos antediluvian and killing a god in the Umbra, the Red Star… In the end of the day, after all that chaos, there is no one that wants more to cover up everything than the Technocracy.
I also would like see the resolution of Saulot-Tremere-Tzimice-thing. The Lasombra is dead or is in the abyss?
Me and all my friends would like see the Masquerade setting with the Requiem updated rules.
thanks!
IMO…
If the Gehenna happened, that means:
1) Sabbat was right, in a certain way
Sabbat was telling us that Gehenna would happen. What about they? Did they survived it? Who survived? The Elders? The Neonates? The Inquisitors? The Crusaders?
Did the traumatic experience of Gehenna shaped the Sabbat somehow? How?
Or perhaps, they were the first to be crushed. When you are a crazy vampiric Jim Jones at battlefield against a dozen Antedilluvians, you should not expect mercy. Even from Caine, God, Triat or whatever.
2) Camarilla should be damned
The most safe refuge of vampire-kind failed utterly. IMO, if Camarilla survives, it’s to deny the necessity of the Kindred to recognize Gehenna as an imminent threat.
It’s telling us the Nosferatu found some place to hide at bunker undergrounds, protected by strong Thaumaturgy Rituals of the Tremere and the eventual Nictuku was Potency-killed by the Brujah Elders. No no no no!
If the Sabbat had no chance against the Gehenna even with centuries of antecipation, Camarilla should be entirely crushed. The six clans retreats and every bloodsucker by himself. Telling us the Elders knew all along and knew how to evade it would be… a bit anti-climax
Or should the Antediluvians be stopped by social quirks and the intricated movements of Elder’s Jyhad? I don’t think so.
Even if the game needs a “Camarilla 2.0”, the ancient structure should be gone.
3) Gehenna was defintely the most important event of the Kindred until now, not invisible neither subtle
More than First City. More than Deluge. More than Second City, foundation of Camarilla, Sabbat, Anarchist Revolution. The Gehenna was meant to be the climax, the end of all Kindred or Cainite alike.
The survivors should be feel extremely lucky.
Not only lucky, but Gehenna should be an earthshaking event. Even the humans should deal with the consequences. It was meant to be the annihilation of an entire supernatural species, the End of All Vampires.
We should not ask: “How did the vampires survived?”, but “How THOSE vampires survived?”.
Earthquakes, destruction, deaths, fire raining from the skies, whatever. Gehenna should shake mortal and vampire worlds alike. “Not with a whimper, but a bang.”
4) PCs are goddamn awesome!
This. The survivors of Gehenna should be survivors. Not merely changed, but survivors. They were able to hide, evade conflicts, bargain or whatever while God, Caine, Antediluvians, whatever, descend to Earth to bring extinction and doom to the Kindred.
And they survived. They could have CHANGED because they survived, but not survived they changed. It’s their reward. A curse, but a gift.
I personally think Masquerade was much more fun than Requiem (IMO, of course), because in Masquerade, player characters were vampires with much more resources than mortals. It’s not like a Requiem Neonate couldn’t kill a mortal, but mortals could kill a Neonate with more ease. Requiem Neonates must fear much more their Elders than Masquerade (because Predator’s Mark).
IMO, Masquerade gives a Neonate the good side to be a vampire. You have fangs, free success in Strength (Potency), Fortitude, undeath is good. It bites you with hot poison in veins sometimes, but is good.
So Vampires arranges some way to bypass Gehenna should be even more awesome.
5) Masquerade?
Well… if Gehenna didn’t killed anyone and just changed the Kindred, maybe the Masquerade isn’t in a threat. No one saw the Gehenna. To the world it didn’t made a difference, only to vampires, and they were all wrong – even to fear it (except if Gehenna brought them a more potent curse). In that case, I have no idea. No idea.
But if Gehenna came as a harbinger of chaos, destruction and death, the world should know about vampires or about supernatural things.
Thanks, guys
Half-vampire,like Blade
Things I like from Gehenna:
1. Antediluvians rising. The Camarilla spent so much energy denying their existence, it would be nice to see the sect shaken to its cute. I also have a soft spot in my heart for The Sword of Caine.
2. The Blood being messed with. Some of the curses in Gehenna affected different generations differently. I really enjoy Requiem’s Blood Potency, and I’d love to see something different than Generation used in V4. It probably shouldn’t be Blood Potency. I’m sure Eddy can come up with a cool idea.
I apologize if I’m repeating what’s already been voiced, but I think the real concern should be what kind of world do we want to be left with and work backwards from there.
I’d love a world where the masquerade is more important than ever. Maybe mankind found out about vampires and thinks they all died out, and would surely finish the job if they were wrong.
Maybe the sects were forever changed and/or splintered into something politically interesting.
Maybe other antideluvians arrived with no connection to Caine, allowing us other clans and new mythos for where they came from
What if Caine never showed up, because the Earth isn’t 6,000 years old and Caine is a myth? What were the Antedeluvians’ true origins? What if we never find out where they came from?
About the use of Blood Potency: While I agree that Generation has its problems, I don’t want to lose the social aspects of it. If something like Blood Potency becomes the way to rate Kindred’s power potential, keeping track of an individual Cainite’s relation to her Clan founder should still be important. Generation should be the cause of some social restraints even if it ceases to form a hard cap on abilities and power potential, IMO.
As someone who’s got practically no knowledge about what did go down during the many Gehenna scenarios. What I’m wondering is how my character, a recently embraced neonate, should give a toss about some prophesized event that may or may not have come true?
In other words how will “Final Nights” effect street level characters? Especially in places where little of the shockwaves were felt. What new lies will be told by the Elders? Who will take advantage of the situation locally? And will the Clans themselves really change all that much?
I think it could be interesting to have some diary or notes about the Gehenna times from the perspective of a human vampire hunter. Maybe a retired one, or one giving their notes as legacy to a discipule.
One event I hope doesn’t get mentioned: the events of Blood Treachery, probably the biggest idiot plot in WW’s history.
The requests for Requiem’s Blood potency system have me wondering, why not just play V:tR instead?
And there’s the effect of Gehenna on other supernatural creatures and how those changes affect Vampires.
Such as the Kiasyd.
Has Gehenna affected their fae blood as well as their vitae. And how does that affect their duel nature.
My key questions:
1) How was the Masquerade maintained during the event? How has its maintenance (or not) affected the Sects?
2) Are the thin-blood powers (Insight, new discipline creation etc) still around? If so, what does this mean for thin-bloods’ status in the Jyhad and the Sects?
3) Is the Thinning of the Blood over? If so, what does that mean for Generation mechanics and/or social standing?
4) Which Antediluvians woke up during Gehenna? How many are still alive? For those that didn’t wake, how much is known about them, and what does their non-rising mean for their Clans?
I would like the end of generation sistem, puting in ther place the “Blood Potency” sistem, equal of the VTR.
Maurice Jacob,
As a huge huge NWoD fan I see where your coming from, but I feel part of Masquerade’s core esthetic is the disparity between the low and high Generation Kindred. I feel the things low gen Kindred can are bullshit and the Disciplines or Generation system would benefit a bit of an updating, but I feel switching to a system like Blood Potency would invalidate a lot of that core aesthetic.
I’d be most interested in the turmoil between the Sects in the post-Gehenna world. VtM has a very Cold War kind of feel to it. There are two big powers that split the world into two radically different camps, while a few independent players hover at the edges of the conflict hoping that the power balance doesn’t shift too far in either direction. This leaves little room for the political acrobatics that color every other part of Kindred society. This means that a large enough disruption, no matter how short-lived, could result in sufficiently organized groups of Kindred taking the opportunity to secure a part of the Sabbat’s/Camarilla’s former holdings for themselves.
I’d imagine that Gehenna would serve as the necessary disruption and would weaken the Sabbat and the Camarilla enough, at least temporarily, for the geo-political climate to become more diverse and less rigid. New Sects would form, gain prominence, and dilute the global power structure enough for a “Concert of Europe” style political climate (4-5 Great Powers maneuvering against each other for supremacy, like those of 19th century Europe). Example Sects could include: a pan-Bahari Sect that had been waiting for the rise of Lilith to make its move. Surviving Salubri and Cappadocians coming together in a loose alliance bound more by a dislike of the Sabbat/Camarilla that either allowed or encouraged them to be destroyed, than any real intrinsic link to each other. Even an organized Baali Sect could rise. Any one of these trying to rise on their own at any other time would be suicide, but with the two “superpowers” heavily weakened and all of them rising together, it’s not unreasonable that they could secure significant territorial holdings.
I’d also like to see how Kindred try to reconcile their cosmology and perceived place in the world with that of other game lines. Most probably wouldn’t care about or notice the Garou’s Apocalypse, but those Kindred with a scholarly bent seem likely to both notice and care.
What if “Gehenna” wasn’t caused by the Ante’s awakening? What if it started from the bottom of the pile?
Instead of the Withering being a curse from Caine or God or the Red Star it was a unique Discipline like effect cooked up by a thin blooded Inceptor and then spread, disease like, through physical or spiritual contact throughout Kindred society as a way to bring the Elders down to the level of the thin blooded outcasts. However the Amaranth staves off the effects temporarily, leading to a Diablerie epidemic as the Elders desperately try to cling to their generational advantage which in turn prompts a new revolt against the rule of the Elders.
Eventually it transpires that with time the soul will fight off the effects of the Withering and the rash of diablerie dies down but by then the damage is done and any trust or respect the Elders may have had from the neonates is gone and although the reinvigorated Elders are able to restore order it is the peace of the sword and with their numbers reduced by the conflict the return of violence is just below the surface.
Tension remains high due to periodic localised outbreaks of the Withering, often causing upheavals in a city’s power structure if the right Kindred become afflicted. This means that many Prince’s will risk the backlash from condemning any who show symptoms to Final Death instead of allowing the possibility of the Withering spreading in their domain.
There are several comments above that suggest doing away with Generation and replacing it with some form of Blood Potency. I think that wouldn’t gel with the themes of VtM. The Withering could be used as a way to allow players to create characters with an effective Generation higher than their actual generation and which can be lowered as play progresses without resorting to diablerie.
Furthermore the actual causes of Gehenna in whatever form it takes shouldn’t be revealed, Antediluvian activity should be hinted at – maybe a couple of Methuselah’s disappear and all that can be found is some dry ash which no can determine is the remains of the vampire in question or an unfed ancient ghoul. Caine, Lilith, the Second Generation or God should be kept out of it. Ideally some hints should be dropped that everything that’s going down is linked to one of the alternative Kindred origin stories.
Don’t eliminate any major clans. Shake them up (and take the opportunity to divest them of any early nineties negative stereotyping which shall not even be referred to in any V4 books), shift their political leanings as a group but leave enough members as they are that no pre-existing characters will become special snowflakes or have to make changes beyond maybe adding or removing the word antitribu on the character sheet.
The Masquerade should remain in place, unless you intend to change the subtitle. If the intention is for Gehenna to be broadly accepted as been and gone then the tone of the game could shift from paranoia about the possible awakening of ancient vampire blood gods to paranoia about the ever thinner veil that protects the Kindred from mortals.
So to recap I feel Gehenna should:
Not overly affect Generation
Not be a large scale re-run of the Week of Nightmares
Not have any thing which can’t be statted out front and centre
So, with that in mind what could happen? Well:
-The Withering scenario as presented in my original post
-The Tremere start randomly developing third eyes and/or uncontrollable Vicissitude
-The above mentioned disappearances of powerful ancients
-Once it becomes apparent that Gehenna wasn’t the end of the world the Sabbat and the other Gehenna cults would lose their less dedicated members but be left with a die hard core of fanatics
-With the dwindling power of the Sabbat a new sect will have space to rise up, maybe the Assamite antitribu will return to the main clan and bring their packmates with them
-With pogroms of thin bloods less likely to be going on there will be more Inceptors running around. Use this as an opportunity to break the link between new Disciplines and new Bloodlines, instead they can be linked to sub-sect or independent factions founded by or exploiting a thin blooded Inceptor
-On a similar note Gehenna would be a great opportunity to wipe out a few of the Bloodlines that were always printed with “Not intended as PCs” disclaimers and make the ones that are kept easily playable without the use of a shoehorn
My beef with Generation is 2-fold:
1) It breaks a key theme of the game, that the old are more powerful than the young. A 6th gen neonate has more power in their blood than a 9th gen who’s 400 years old. That doesn’t make sense to me. Have a system whereby age determines power (or at least strongly influences it), with generation maybe reflecting a starting point, or fewer of the key power stats.
2) It makes alternative metaphysical theories on vampires categorically wrong, with little reason to believe them. Having a more “bendy” system gives that possibility for uncertainty which allows theories to flourish like they’re supposed to in-game.
I’m going to be honest, I’m very pessimistic about this. Gehenna was a big part of the identity for masq, at least for me. The idea of the world hurdling faster and faster to a looming apocalypse with some throwing themselves into the abyss and some dancing while the house burned around them. Gehenna as anything other than a world wrecking event described by the book of nod looming on the edge of the horizon like storm clouds is going to be disappointing for me.
So that being said I would like to have the pivotal moment as close to a classic Gehenna as possible. A grand culling of vampires. Maybe the antes are still around, either as ineffable forces of nature or sects unto themselves undead God-Kings ruling and plotting against each other.
I think the withering should have been a major plot point, the wrath of Caine maybe? With Caine being the new Gehenna? His return being the next step in a grand apocalypse that even the antes fear?
I would love to keep the Caine mythology as a big part of this new vampiric society, whatever it is.
I would like to ask that we try and keep masq masq and not vtr v2.5
I always liked the idea of a cyclical Gehenna.It happened again and this time was a big deal, but the average vampire is likely not aware of the change. he or she just know they’re living in interesting times.
So my idea: The first Gehenna was Caine’s destruction of Abel (creating the first generation.) The second was an unknown event that winnowed down the second generation to three. The most recent Gehenna wrapped up the jyhad that’s raged for longer than recorded history. The death of the Ravnos antediluvian — and one more (my vote is for Tzimisce, who played his giant-plant card too soon.) culled the third generation to its final number.
If you choose to keep the Withering, it faded away after the 1-2 third generation antediluvians disappeared to meet the magic number.
The cycle shifts and the Jyhad is now between the surviving members of the 4th Generation, who have learned that only a select number can survive. They begin to plot against each other and the surviving members of the third generation. Rather than being elevated, the 3rd generation is now on parity with their children and found their old blood bonds shattered.
I like the idea from a metaplot perspective. There’s a power rush among those elders who’ve been coasting or keeping a low profile. Everyone wants an army.
–Helena and Menele’s cold war goes hot, causing riots in Chicago as they throw forces against each other. One of them pulls back to Detroit with obvious consequences.
–Mithras and ur-Shulgi (who already killed a good number of the other 4th Gen. Assamites) wage a battle of attrition resulting in the current instability in the Middle East.
–Lazarus and Khemintiri team up to start picking off the 4th Generation Setites in Egypt.
–Having faked her own death (because I love her), Baba Yaga sets about making Russia a global power again to oppose Sybil (Marcus Vitel’s sire and U.S. manipulator) by dominating Vladimir Putin. This explains why he suddenly decided he was Peter the Great.
–Montano reemerges to finally kill Gratiano de Veronese — or vice versa. He then establishes himself at a new Castle of Shadows. Without any to oppose him, the Lasombra clan has to question their allegiance to the Sabbat.
–Suddenly discovering that they’re on different sides, the Tremere Inner Circle schisms. The Inconnu is in the same situation as they look around the room and realize everyone there is their natural enemy.
–Maybe an Anis versus Germaine in canon? (Red Death trilogy)
–Nearly all of the public 4th generation vampires go into hiding. This leaves the Giovanni with no head and they begin forming armed camps.
–On the opposite side, Saulot goes public promising Golconda for everyone. Since he’s wearing Tremere’s body, this may not go over well. It also inspires another wave of Cathayan assaults, not just in California this time.
–A bunch of the defunct bloodlines slowly reemerged as their progenitors get caught up in the new jyhad (Lhiannon, I’m thinking.)
–The sects stay about the same with the Sabbat now trying to destroy any 4th generation vampire they’ve heard of to hasten the next Gehenna for Caine. “Don’t trust anyone under 7th Generation!” The Camarilla (uncomfortable chuckle) is just trying to keep everything secret and claiming the withering caused most 4th generation vampires to go mad.
–Some Antedilluvian somewhere is stuck in the Umbra, leaving us with this crazy extreme weather. The Camarilla calls it global warming. The Sabbat call him El Nino.
–With the end of the cycle, no new Imbued (Hunter: The Reckoning) are being created. Holdouts still remain. However, a reawakened fourth generation vampire fell into the clutches of the Inquisition, who now know the whole story. Their recruitment and activity are doubled. On a side note, I can’t imagine Ingrid “The Iron Maiden” Bauer approves of the new pope.
Game elements of Gehenna as the clock strikes on the next round:
–A severing of blood bonds in 2001. They can be reestablished, but chaos erupted, coinciding with the withering. I actually like the idea of adding a system for blood bonding, maybe a WP roll to resist domination for each drink. That would lend a level of uncertainty to kindred relations.
–The power flowed downhill a bit. Sixth generation can be discipline inceptors. Eighth generation now have max. trait of 6. Thin bloods are now 15-16 rather than 14-15. I also like the idea of giving thin bloods immunity from Presence and Domination. That gives the Ventrue a real reason to hate them.
–With power flowing downhill, there are some random effects. The original Gargoyles revert to their prior clans. The Blood Brothers can now embrace (which I find really unnerving.) Some existing Caitiff (particularly lower generation ones) find their clan because the clan weakness kicks in.
–The Tremere’s clan weakness reverts to either Salubri (not being able to drink from unwilling source) or Tzimisce (must sleep in native soul). I always thought that “almost being blood bonded” wasn’t a weakness anyway.
–It may not last forever, but for the time being diablerie can hold off the clan weakness in a vampire for 1 month. All of the sudden, the Nosferatu get very chummy with low-powered vampires.
Extra: I had an amusing thought since everyone is talking about the Masquerade in the Internet age. How many elders had to get themselves a “social media specialist ghoul” to pass for human. (Come on, when you meet a 20-year-old who doesn’t have Facebook, aren’t you suspicious?) Given the increasing sophistication of technology, how often do they need to be replaced?
Love your ideas, especially the stuff with blood bonds and “power flowing uphill” stuff. Gargoyles returning to their native clans? Pretty cool. Blood Brothers embracing others? Terrifying.
Your idea of the Jyhad and Gehenna occurring in cycles is intriguing, but I’m not sure I’m entirely okay with that. It certainly shouldn’t be a common knowledge thing, no Elder should be able to say, “Oh, looks like it’s Gehenna season again, better get out of town.” If there have been Gehennas in the past, they still need to be game-changing events, with the current one being the most destructive. Do vampires get driven to the brink of extinction, and barely survive? Maybe, but I think whatever happens, the status quo of the Modern Nights needs to be very different after Gehenna.
Nossies diablerizing young Kindred to look normal has so much potential. It could really change their reputation among the Kindred: not only are they the scary dudes so ugly they breaks Masquerade, they will also eat you for the chance to look normal! If that happened, I can see the Camarilla forcing them to leave, or maybe the clan would voluntarily go independent.
Nossies diablerizing other kindred to look normal? hell, that was what the Niktuku should’ve been like! …and the irony of the nossies becoming like their worst nightmare would have been intriguing as well…
The Antedelluvians awaken and instead of devouring their children, They get devoured by the 2nd generation which was thought to be dead.
I would like to see something building on the ending of the Gehenna novel; it seemed like the Withering was slacking down, and a lot of the world vampires had seen what their upper echelons were capable of (the Camarilla’s rampant resorting to diablerie/eating of younger vampires to maintain strength most notably). There’s new people in charge, a few of the contentious clans are gone, and the mortal world was struck but got it covered up. Ultimately, I think it’s a pretty good starting point.
never followed the novels much, but it would make sense.
Plus what I’ve said also ;P
a) Food for thought: why everyone is trying to “Nerf” Cainites as a whole?
Many players complain that they do NOT have true Agency, that they are always just “pawns”… so why not make the Gehenna REALLY “wipe clean” the state, AND the normal PCs becoming 4 Generation Cainites?
This way, Players would have Agency, THEy would reinforce the Masquerade, THEY would fear their Children, THEY would have real Political and Mundane leverage, and THEY would be paranoid of being “taken out”. Couple this with “I MUST be Ruthless to keep alive and to keep my power” with the Morality degeneration, and you have a game of Masquerade + Politics + Personal Horror… all the core elements of the Game.
To enforce things, you could even make a “Game System Rule of Solitude”, that makes it increasingly difficult to resit the urge to Embrace someone… so the Players that never Embraced could not simply “dodge” the problem easily.
—
Despite using that approach, or not, these are other (detailed) issues that you should work, as fixes:
1) Please, revamp Humanity list of Sins. HUMANITY 5 IS BROKEN; that’s VERY Capitalist and NOT “Human” to think that Property Damage is worse than “damaging” people. ¬¬ I suggest making the current Level 5 sin a new Level 8 one, and then “shift” all other sins “down” a step until they cover the gap left at 5.
2) make explicit “Inhumanity” rules for gauging non-human appearance. Without an “Inhumanity” Trait and explicit rules, people just tend to ignore this point.
3) use DAV20 Gangrel Weakness or some variation.
4) Swap Protean 2 and 3. PLEASE. It makes no sense as it is today.
5) Make it possible for Humans (and everyone) with 5 or 6 dice in an Atb + Ability Pool, to make 2 actions in a turn without much trouble. I mean, with Dex 3 + Brawl 2, any Human should be able to “Dodge than Hit” our to “Hit than Hit again” without much trouble. With this simple measure, you will solve a LOT of Game System problems, even in other Game Lines (I could elaborate, but for now I’ll just keep it simple. Just think about how this impacts Celerity, and so, other Physical Disciplines and things like Garou Rage & Time Sphere).
6) Allow Disciplines to have alternative levels (like Wraith Arcanoi) without necessarily resorting to Meta-Disciplines. This way, Assamites could Learn DAV20 Obfuscate 1, While Malkavians & Nosf would probably learn the Traditional V20 Obfuscate 1.
+++
(Sorry for the bad English.)
:-]
errata: I mean, with Dex 3 + Brawl 2, any Human should be able to “Dodge then Hit” or to “Hit, then Hit again” (in a single turn) without much trouble.
sine it has to be post-Rev and post-Gehenna, some things in Rev simply cannot be ignored. However, i would like to go back to the cyclical Gehenna of the 1st Ed. and dig through the book of Nod for inspiration, lot of stuff written there, but how much had been misintepreted because of the fear of death that immortal but not indestructible creatures still have? I see many would like to see Caine and Lilith popping up, my only problem with it is, how is it possible for such powerful creatures to show up without world-shattering events? also another thing that woud be interesting to address is, if the dying Ravnos brought with him a huge chunk of the clan, how comes that the same did not happen with the other Ante that are supposedly dead?
…and with Kindred having survived Gehenna, although not unscathed…will they really believe it happened? more paranoia going on.
Honestly, I love the idea of VtM4, but Im not digging the idea of Gehenna came and went, but its not post-apocalyptic.
Years back when the Time of Judgement line was out and the WoD ended, the reason goven was because everyone had been hinting and building towards Gehenna, The Apocalypse, etc, and WW did not want to keep insinuating it was around the corner, but never actually going through with it. This kind of seems like its doing exactly that, turning it into a pretty minor, non-event.
I understand we really don’t know enough yet, but that seems to be the direction its going, and feels like a let down.
When I first heard about VtM4, my initial idea was that it was set somewhere between VtM Revised and THE END, and I was extremely excited. Like nearly everything up to the actual Gehenna book was the Doomsday clock set to 11pm. VtM4 would then pick up at 1155PM, still leaving a little room for “we dont want to do Gehenna”, but still allowing it for those that might want another crack at it, or just before.
Anyway, I really hope that Gehenna isnt sort of retconned into being just a paranoid end of the world that turned out to be nothing and came and went. Im not a fan of the idea presented at all. A bit of tweeking to not make Gehenna and so much of the stories and themes building up to it meaningless would be fantastic.
Little bit late to the party, but here’s what I see.
Firstly, I’ve always looked at the oWoD as a whole, rather than core-book specific. Mind you, if I ran a Vampire game, the odds of actually running into something that is distinctly from another game were slim (though they did happen from time to time, usually due to things getting grossly out of hand.)
For example, in one game, the city they were in contained a small Flambeau cell that was plotting a scheme to destroy both the local Technocracy agents (all 3 of them) and a demon (in the high umbral sense) at the same time. It was meant to be a strange background event that could be easily dismissed as an arson or chemical explosion. Well, one of the players decided to use his dots of Occult to summon a demon and make a deal for more power so he could snuff out an elder who was stubbornly grinding his social status down. Well, while he didn’t have the magical might to drag one out of the umbra, there /was/ one in town. I was somewhat flabbergasted, but rolled with it. He didn’t stop there either. He went on a spree, feeding the thing without much care about keeping things quiet, and eventually did half the Flambeau’s job for them. Because the Technos noticed the weakening Gauntlet and rash of missing people and increases in ‘really bad luck’ that was starting to drift into the realm of outright impossible horrors. But they thought it was a Nephandus. So did the Flambeau. The rest of the coterie had their suspicions about what he was doing, but either thought he was just losing his mind, or were scared to confront him. And then the trio of Techs came in, loaded with the best they had at their little base (because Nephandus). Half the players knew nothing about Mage, and thought it was some kind of high-tech government hunters.
Then they heard two voices in unison basically bellowing something along the lines of ‘Creo Ignum et Perdo essentiae, per sedum Adonai!’ And the world erupted in flames.
One survived. And embraced one of his clan’s traditions. When that Gangrel assembled his new coterie, he told them all a (very strange and distorted) cautionary tale about drawing too much attention, that human really are dangerous, some of them have ray guns, vibroblades, and gauss weapons with exploding shells, and others make the Tremere look like sideshow charlatans. Then he’d show them the massive scarring from all the aggravated damage he took, when he was known to be very hard to injure even with claws.
I told that story because if Gehenna was too open, too public, not even Tzimisce (with Auspex and Dominate as core ‘clan disciplines) herself could make the world forget or not notice before there was fallout.
Regarding Kupala, however, I’ve long had a theory about that, and that Lambach was /really/ wrong. When the Cathedral of Flesh ate its sire, Yorak, I think it could do that because it was possessed by Kupala. After being almost completely unbound, it burrowed in it’s massive vampiric-vohzd-cathedral body to NYC where it figured it would be safe from further tinkering by Vlad, the Tremere, and whoever else. Then Lambach stumbled upon it. In his shock and horror, it used its spiritual powers and the body’s Auspex to get into his head. And it started repeating the ‘Be a good lad’ stuff so he’d not cause it more problems.
When Gehenna hit, even if the ‘giant blob of flesh’ was moving around, I always pictured it as Kupala in the Cathedral, /not/ as Tzimisce. It made a deal with her to provide power to her and her descendants by letting them commune with it’s really ticked off nature spirits (Not sure if they were truely Banes, or just MAD.) In exchange, she’d free it. Well, it’s free, so it’s trying to uphold it’s bargain. But it’s a weakened Incarna in a host. So what can it do? Simple. Destroy those who would deprive them of the power. Including those Tzimisce who scoffed at Koldunism and refused to study it. Unintended consequences…or was it? Tzimisce was rumored to be a /powerful/ Seer even before embrace. So she may well have known how things would probably play out. But she was also considered cold and distant, so perhaps she considered it a good outcome, because only her descendants who had learned to connect with the realm of spirits and thus were more versatile, adaptable, and powerful than the rest remained. Strength through a horrific, giant house-vohzd-4th-gen-methusalah eating the weak.
The more I ponder on it, I think the one most important thing, whatever changes are made through Gehennas, is that the game is still Vampire: the Masquerade and not Vampire: the something that isn’t a masquerade at all.
The way I see the Gehenna is that through the fight preparation of the different parties before the prophecy, every party consolidated power in preparation, this led into breaking the balance, overpopulation in supernatural creatures and degeneration. The different puppet masters knew it would end in trimming the supernatural population across the world as it was not sustainable anymore, they were just hoping to save themselves while scarifying some of their pawns.
V4 should be a new cycle like there have already been some in the history (book of Nod, The first anarch Revolt…). The new challenge now is that the world is dying because of the excesses of the past.
IMOH, V4 should reflect the current planet situation and the near expected future (50-100 years). Important factors like technology, health evolution (the human race is expected to have a risen longevity), ice melting, world globalization should have had an effect on the supernatural populations as well. As the puppet masters did not fully cope with the modern world, they need to face the reality and adapt their strategy or risk extinction themselves, this is probably why they had to awaken and take a more active role?
Make the most cosmopolitan sects.
Destroy current and recreate others can dialogue
promoting more intrigue and less war
remove the huge number of blood lines
and highlight the 13 major clans in order to adapt them to the new scenario.
The smallest possible plot goal and maintaining its basic stereotypes.
Create a more nilista and less Catholic universe. Abandoning the old idea of Cain. (with some exceptions like Cain Trail)
Most Followers of Set may become more worldly. Using its network of favors for themselves.
Make sex a more common thing
Make Giovanni less isolated
balance Thaumaturgy and Obtenebration
Improve Serpentis and animalism
I for one would love to see a post-Gehenna world as following the Book of Nod’s prophecy of the ancients ruling for a thousand years.
I see it as the ancients have woken (unbeknownst to the human world but all Cainites are fully aware) and are out there SOMEWHERE. Whole world governments now dance to their tune, as do countless Elder vampires. Fear and suspicion now grips every Cainite, for now they KNOW that all powerful demi-gods are moving among them pulling strings. If player characters were fearful of the power politics of their Elders before, its now been ramped up a hundred fold!
So yeah, I’d love to see a post-Gehenna V4 be the epitome of PARANOIA!
Personally, I’d love to see some shifting. A couple of clans dead or decimated. (My personal choices have always been Tremere, Tzmice and Toreador, because it makes the most sense.)New clans joining the Camarilla, or Sabbat. Some bloodlines elevated to the level of clan, due to paranoia and desperate need…
I guess what I really want is for it not to have been FULL Gehenna yet. To have us still in the middle of the Antedeluvians waking up…
Caveat to the reader: I do not own and have not read V20. The last Masquerade book I bought was Gehenna (that’s a slight lie, I grabbed the Ventrue Chronicles and Nuovo Malottia from a bargain bin, along with some of the by Night books for DA).
Anyway. This seems like an open invitation to air setting grievances. I have a few, which I shall weave into my broader setting suggestions.
NOTEBOOK SCRIBBLES
Before I learned about the cWoD, back when I was in high school, I created my own jankety version of Vampire by scribbles in a notebook when my teachers thought I was furiously taking notes. My version was awful. But here’s the thing: it’s not that much worse than 1st ed Masquerade.
One of the things that an organization (any kind) needs to do to succeed is not be bound to their legacy. My concern when I first heard about V20 was that this would be an issue – not being able to jettison legacy. As I said, I haven’t read V20, so I don’t know if that’s the case, but I say to you now, harmful legacies must be jettisoned.
This is my primary setting grievance with Masquerade. Classic Vampire still has too many aspects of its setting that are like my old notebook scribbles. They sound cool if you’re 16. Any deeper examination shows that they’re toxic to the game.
Others have touched on this earlier – the racism stuff. Much ado is made in Revised about how egalitarian modern vampires are, which sounds incredibly disingenuous right next to the clan stereotypes. I wish I had an answer for this that wasn’t ‘be more like Requiem’ but that’s how it comes out of my mouth. I recall reading numerous books in 2nd and Revised that talk about how multicultural the clans are. The Setites have Haitian and Norse branches of their clan to go with the Middle Eastern stereotype. This is good. More of this. Or go the straight-up racist route and make the clans less multicultural. Pick one or the other. The heterogenous approach isn’t doing it for me.
As a parallel to that, please for the love of god, rename the clans, too. I know who ‘the Clan of the Rose’ is when I read the Book of Nod, but it’s jarring to go back to them being the Toreador elsewhere.
SHAKE IT UP, SHAKE IT OFF
I liked that the Camarilla and Sabbat’s role calls were shook up by Revised. If you want to shake up the setting, let it continue. I wouldn’t do something as drastic as plucking a name out of the hat.
I would leave the Gangrel as independent, but perhaps replace with an antitribu-lobby: three smaller chunks of other clans. Let some smaller bloodlines crawl up out of gutters because they’re willing to adapt to the modern age (Salubri antitribu, just to pluck my favorite out of the list).
I would like to stress this a lot, so hear me now: please let the Nephtali be canon. Camarilla vs. Sabbat bores me, Camarilla vs. anarchs bores me. This mix needs to get shook up.
METAPLOT THEIR DEMISE
The metaplot. Oh deary me, the metaplot. I favor the nearly-clean-slate approach. 1st-2nd-3rd-4th generations all got whacked by predation, the Withering, or collateral damage (like the Technocracy cooking the Ravnos Antediluvian). 11th-12th-13th-14th generations all get eaten by the blood strength fluctuations, either dying or becoming mortal again. Only vampires that 6th-10th generation had a chance of surviving Gehenna – assuming that they weren’t collateral damaged out of existence. Mobility up and down the ladder is possible, but getting to 5th gen through diablerie makes you a puppet of your hunger (new curse from God?), and 10th generation can’t Embrace, which would create an amusing five-tiered class system for V4th. 6th gen vampires can’t diablerize anyone if they want to keep their senses, but they can make it easy for 7th gens to do so – and in so doing create a new rival. 10th gens are the new Caitiff, denied some basic rights due to thin blood, but they can climb out of the gutter and start siring if they diablerize. Sorry, that got a little game-mechanicy, but this addresses a larger issue – me no likey Generation as a game mechanic. If I was the lead designer and I was going to keep it, I’d streamline it like above.
If you’re going to have a post apocalypse story, even if the apocalypse only mattered to a minority of people, you need to burn some shit down. If Vampire was my game, I’d probably burn the Camarilla and Sabbat to the ground, but I suspect that’d be too drastic a change for many. Instead, keep the Cam and Sab, but do away a great many elders and established power players in the setting. Anyone who might be described as a Methuselah? Off them. Elders can still exist and be terrifying alien monsters, but suddenly having everyone in positions of power die as though they were assassinated is still some horrifying shit. TL; DR version: embrace the soft reset. The soft reset is your friend.
I would personally keep the Masquerade, and not just because it’s in the title. Whatever Gehenna is decided to be, it involves the kine learning at least a bit about the Kindred, and that will likely result in those who benefit from the Masquerade (everyone) likely to double down. Again, if it were me, I would have the best surviving spin doctors of the Camarilla go to work spinning a tale of ‘all of the vampires were wiped out by their Gehenna-apocalypse event in 2004’ and playing off current Masq breaches as the last gasps of a dying race.
GAME MECHANICS
I have less to say here, as I mostly agree with the Revised changes. If I were designer, though, I’d have fewer ‘weird’ disciplines like Serpentis. Serpentis’ job is to make the Setites ‘weird and snake-like’ which is not something the Setites would realistically choose if it were up to them. Presence/Obfuscate are far more useful to them for their clan’s dealings. I’d make Serpentis something else, like manipulating addictions and vices (or penalizing Virtues, if those continue into 4th ed). The Tremere would be the only ones to keep their ‘weird’ Discipline, because their point from a design/setting perspective is that they have a weird Discipline.
Also, kill off some bloodlines. The Giovanni, okay. The Harbingers of Skulls as Giovanni antitribu, okay. But the Samedi, too? Too many. Gangrel, okay. Antitribu, Ahrimanes, City Gangrel, Gangrel aquarii? Too many. Repeat for each clan. And please give the antitribu different clan flaws. That would make the concept of antitribu easier to grok for new players.
Well, as Gehenna go, with my group I’ve done a mixture of the various Gehenna’s setting, and I find the outcome quite amusing.
-Wormwood: This setting happened. An handful of Kindred seclude themselves in some place where they wait for The End. The only difference is that the other Kindred don’t die, as a matter of fact, these “choosen ones” are only the ones selected for forgiveness.
The “End” in not actually the end: some of them die in the process, others revert to be humans (some Children of Osiris had already done this), while a couple of them become different, not humans but no more Kindred (not Blade, please not Blade).
-Nightshade & The Crucible of God: Some Antediluvians wake up and are out for blood (read “vitae”) while they’re old and powerful, they perceived what happened to Ravana and are quite cautious. Therefore Haqim, Augustus Giovanni, Saulot (in Tremere’s body), Tremere (in Goratrix’s body), Malkav (he can hold control only on a given number of bodies, no legions of possessed Malks; by the way, he is crazy not stupid), Absimilard (searching for someone to kill… well… almost anyone, he is quite a bilious person). In the struggle, Augustus Giovanni die under Kaymakli.
Meanwhile, in a parody of the rite used by Osiris, Set reverse the “rebirth” ritual used by his Clan and sacrifice them for the sake of coming back to unlife. As result the Setite Clan is resized (not destroyed nor sent to bloodline-status, but most of the elders and sorcerers are gone) and Set return to Earth as a frightening Dhampir with Generation and fangs, he has the capability of diablerize and is set on climbing the Generation-ladder up to his old status.
-Fair is Foul: Finally, somewhere, Caine resurface. Lilith makes her move and all this scenario go out in its greatness. Absimilard, Haqim and Saulot join the fray, while Tremere and Malkav bide their time. As results, most of the Apostates die, along with Absimilard. Haqim is finally killed by Saulot with help from some local Kindred.
Malkav “takes over” his sister, adding her to the Malkavian Network. As result a sprout a new strain of Malkavians.
The long struggle has severely weakened Saulot, and [Tzimisce] takes advantage, battling the weary Saulot over his body (originally, Tremere’s body), in the end [Tzimisce] wins but he is in turn diablerized by Tremere who is killed by local vampires already fed-up, before having a chance of regaining his old power.
By the way, Goratrix released from his hand mirror by the death of his body, takes over the old Saulot’s (originally Tremere’s, then [Tzimisce]’s) body, becoming as a matter of facts the Antediluvian of the Tzimisce Clan. By the way, the soulless [Tzimisce]’s husk is still under New York, in lethargy. But befor or later IT will wake up…
As for Caine, he was about to repent, when someone kill him. As result, while the regret changed in some way most of the to-be-generated Cainites, it was not a real repetance and hasn’t a real effect on the already existing Kindred . Furthermore, a couple Caitiff lapped the blood he leaved on the ground with interesting results.
This is, in brief, my Gehenna, Masquerade-friendly.
Wven discounting the mistake that Set 8sn’t actually related to serpents, Im not sure thats true. Serpentis is sort of a specialized Discipline that combines aspects of Auspex, Fortitude, Presence, and Protean that could still be very feasable with the Clan. The Clan weakness is about darkness, and a lot of the Clans focus is on deception and secret knowledge. If they altered slightly the idea so that the Followers of Set revered serpents almost like a totem, (but not an actual totem), playing on the idea that they favor the snake’s guile, the hidden danger of it’s poisonous bite, not dealing much damage but very lethal, the fact that serpents can easily get to places many others can not, and things like that, while still revering Set, it works really well and little needs change.
I’m going to initially try to keep the first segment of my response focused on changes to the setting which would help the feel of the game stay on the one hand true to it’s ancestry without going so far as to make it unrecognizable to many. I’m going for the non throwing the baby out with the bath water approach and what will benefit the game. Towards the end a few ideas regarding things to keep in mind when designing the mechanics (not a list of mechanics as such, you’ll see what I mean). In short I’ll stay focused on the question before I indulge myself by going off topic.
The key point being asked for is what events should transpire. One of the first thing’s that usually comes up is Ravnos and his fate. General consensus these days on an interpretation is he dies, it drive’s his descendants mad for a week and then they settle down again but greatly reduced in numbers. A lot of people shy away from the impact this had in the real world on the rather over the top impact some of the attacks against him had, leaving mass devastation. The Indian subcontinent being wrecked isn’t essential if that is kept, making details on what happened hard to come by might be best.
Gehenna itself I think needs to be a shadow war. I amn’t saying Mad Max style games couldn’t be fun, I could see myself making character’s for one. But if the Masquerade is torn to shreds and the world left in devastation… though that can be a viable game, as a game line and a product it might be too divorced from the source material to have broad appeal and more to the point to feel right. Rest assured I have notions to appease such feelings, do not judge me til you are finished reading.
If Gehenna was a shadow war it does not have to tear the veil assunder, but it can damage it. The Antideluvians/Caine/Lilith or simply the Methuselah’s if the previous are already dead prior to Gehenna use and have been using their pawns. Although at points this can be manipulating mortals or neonates via proxy have the main pawns be the Methusellah and the Elders. If it becomes obvious to Kindred Society that the Antideluvians are alive and kicking this would put a serious strain on the Camarilla in particular as they so steadfastly refused to recognise the signs of Gehenna or that the Antideluvians existed (even though some of the Eldest in the Camarilla knew it was true). Have the Shadow War end up with a lot of Elder’s in every sect dying. Not all but a lot. What I’m suggesting is reduce the baseline. Elder’s become rarer but all the more terrifying for it. Ancilla as Princes/Archbishops/Baron’s become more common.
The Inner Council of the Camarilla, the Regent of the Sabbat and the Cardinals disappear as individuals or as groups. Don’t nail it down for certain, and leave it pretty clear that even eye witnesses can never be relied on completely because there’s ways around that even as simple as dominate. Perhaps they are dead, perhaps they have retired from the nightly game for a time glad to have survived the trials of their elders to lick their wounds and plan their next steps, with so much changed they should think carefully before making their new schemes. A few years at least of planning if not decades or centuries. Let the younger kindred scurry around for the scraps of power in the short term, such is the folly of the young. Or perhaps in torpor? The point of this from a game design point of view would mean that although the player character will start as they traditionally have as neonates(/fledglings/ghouls) when they have accrued experience, power, influence and start to gain positions of power in their city it doesn’t feel as wrong. Also it means that a true elder (not just some pup with two hundred years under their belt) is something rare and terrifying. I know you have stated this will not link in with By Night Studios but some people will without a doubt as they have always done us these rules in favour for their LARPs. Though not your main focus or concern an additional side benefit would be it would make the need for elder PC very limited if at all and the problem that I know comes up of Elder PCs acting like neonates because they are overconfident in their powers and only the neonates playing the elder’s game of power. Of course without removing figures like the Regent (well more appropriately the position as the individual might die) or much of the inner council, many of the elders might still die.
If Gehenna results in the Antideluvians dieing and broader kindred society discover this that would have some huge implications. Before I go further I would like to say even then a sidebar should be put in having leaving he GM have the door open just a crack to let one or more Antideluvians have escaped/won. It would damage the Camarilla as I’ve said previously (especially if the Inner Council and a majority of elders die/disappear). The Anarchs… well I’ll get to them.
If it is widely believed that they are dead then the Sabbat would have issues and fragment, not all certainly many would be skeptical and stay the course. Some Sabbat will grin, their task complete and walk away, a lot of loyalist and nomads in particular aren’t in love with the Sabbat’s structure and without the threat will leave it’s ranks, the vaulderie likely making such decisions on a pack level of course. I know I’ve had honourable characters who were doing atrocious acts for the cause but said to packmates if they survived Gehenna and the Sword of Caine won they saw no purpose then they’d spend their days hunting those who had fallen to the beast and any tyrants… ie they’d be moving from outright monsters to antiheroes of a kind… very violent antiheroes. So loyalists in particular will be moving away perhaps. Status quo and conservatives might have a few deserters but will likely be displeased with this turn of events. The Pander faction might stick with the Sabbat or strike out on their own to promote Caitiff rights or promoting a less clan focused Cainite society.
The Ashirra almost as much as the Sabbat would be affected. They unlike the Camarilla do not deny that the Antideluvians exist and indeed have notions of childer having to obey their sire. They may or may not survive Gehenna but it would be foolish to think them unchanged. Really half the time writers forget they exist even though the should be a significant faction, the third sect (as Anarchs are debatable even being called the Sect within a sect) and one that predates the two other main sects. Depending how things go down with the antideluvians they might be destroyed or make gains as the Camarilla and the Sabbat suffer. Just don’t forget them, they’re more interesting than a lot of the other secondary groups as they make sense aren’t over the top and haven’t been messed with so much that they are gibbering wrecks of conflicting sources.
The Black Hand, the True Black Hand… wait the False True Black Hand or the True True Black Hand. If the lots of Elder’s approach is taken they might not exist in a meaningful way. Or did Caine win and the Antideluvians die so they achieved their goal and await him to shower them with love, power and all the hookers and blow they can handle. The Baseline Black Hand that’s a subsect of the Sabbat is big enough and has Ancilla so some might survive and seek to rebuild towards their probably changed goals post gehenna. Unless they have some super significant place in the Gehenna of choice it might be time to put the many sublairs (and maybe the whole wider thing) into it’s final resting place. Just leave it up to individual storytellers if they want to resurface them in their plots and stories. Given their nature they are secretive bastards, assassins and manipulators… they can be added in from Chronicle to Chronicle. Perhaps for a bunch of elements that likely will have suffered but you don’t have to write off completely you can do a M.I.A. section to the background for such secretive groups, have they wethered the storm or not, leave it to the Chronicle’s discretion.
The Anarch’s suffer from a few problems. The New Promise Mandarinate rams a fairly weird other line roughshod over their main turf… but then stop their but don’t really do much. I wouldn’t be inclined to keep this, let the free state be a thing until Gehenna rolls round at least. Or perhaps the New Promise Mandrinate is less Kuel Jin and more an antedeluvian ploy, so that’s where all the Ravnos went, but I wouldn’t be so keen on that.
A lot of what people are putting forward involves defectors from the other sects to the Anarchs. I’d support this but not the Anarch Free state. As said in the old Anarchs Guide a lot of Anarchs are actually just possers going through a rebellious phase and will go back to the Camarilla when it becomes inconvenient or they grow out of it. Anarchs are despite the way a lot of people approach them not all Anarchists. Let the Anarchs with the new wiggle room and weakening of the more established sects start to formulate into more proper factions. Their thinkers have been looking towards issues for some time. I’d suggest as an example being in one city be an Anarch Ventrue led return of the eternal senate model. The Anarch model is very nebulous and with all of the changes would spawn some more fragmentation, the space created would lead to new government models forming… and some barons becoming tyrants perhaps. I’d suggest drawing back into the older editions that a lot of anarchs look at what the Camarilla was evolving into, the Prince in some cities like Chicago having to take votes from the primogen council and each clan being represented (not usually the case as describing in the Primogen Council book).
You end up if you add these together with possibly having more independent cities maybe in the opening gambits of the new more developed setting different groups, collections of cities loyal to the Camarilla/Sabbat/etc cause of old’s ideals but with the higher level framework of the elders suddenly disappearing over a few scant years vieing for control and influence. Why should a few princes and their cities working together with a surviving archon agree to be junior partners by joining another similarily aligned faction, when you can outmaneuver them and gain the upper hand securing your position in the new hierarchy.
The Hierarchy of certain clans might have a big impact in a similar way. The Tremere are a prime example, the upper levels of the pyramid might be gone. Individual chantries may remain largely unchanged but without the upper levels regents, high regents and overlords may start to vie for dominance more overtly in the new environment to claim the vacant positions. Some Tremere might use this opportunity for freedom, the downside of this being they probably dont have access to much research material for resources. Chantries and Regents allying with the various factions and subfactions. Similarily if the Giovanni lose Augustus and a large chunk of their elders they may also lose cohesion or keep it to a degree and form a council of elders to rule the clan, maybe the heads of each family? Or each family goes their own way, isolated by local political concerns and geography. Some might cosy up to the new subfactions or suffer from deserters. Or become new subfactions, imagine Glasgow running partially off a Camarilla court style model with a Dunsirn Prince at it’s top. Each of the independent clans and groups can be affected in a myriad of ways.
Bloodlines, some people love them, some hate them. Some of the disciplines need some reworking like Mytheceria. I am of two minds about Kiasyd in DAV20, the new background works a lot better but Mytheceria could have been ditched or at least turned around and said, you can take two disciplines from the parent clan but not unique clan disciplines. If you want to keep them and make them more prominent they need reworking especially in the displine department but you could use the idea of them being enough diverged from their clan that they aren’t caught up in the Gehenna schemes of the Antideluvians that they don’t suffer preportionately as badly. Some bloodlines and fallen clans might take the opportunity to repopulate forming a more significant section of Cainite culture. If some of their enemies are more fragmented and distracted this might make it more plausible. If a capadocian line starts cropping up without Augustus and the other elders about how much would the surviving Giovanni care? This way they aren’t as big as the main clans but are more significant than before. This doesn’t mean all have survived of course.
But even a very skillfully executed shadow war and cunning applications of influence and disciplines to cover up loose ends mortals will be more aware. I’m not saying on a public level but you can have more hunters running about, the Masquerade is more important than ever. Scholars of Cainite societies warning that with much more and a new era of the purges of the Inquisition may be happen, and with the tools at the kine’s disposal it may be a final one. Still masquerade breaches are more likely to bring unwanted attention from mortal hunters… also gehenna will not doubt leave many ghouls without their domitor, independent ghouls may become far more of a common threat or former ghouls turned hunter. Cainites might have routed out the more obvious ones in cities but have to worry about the really cunning ones that might patiently working in the shadows stalking and vetting their prey. Nervous glances when a drifter comes to town, how much do they know? How much of a threat are they?
The withering, I’ve never been a huge fan of this but a lot of people like it. I’d suggest it’s run it’s course. A lot of people suggest changing generation in some way. I amn’t as focused on that but gehenna would be a big event supernaturally speaking.
Now I start to indulge leading on from this.
I am more concerned with a change to generation if to promote continuity between it and Dark Ages. In the Dark Ages books 12th is the baseline generation and 13th functions mechanically differently to the rules in VtM. They take additional penalties. They only way this has made sense to me is that as a generation increases in number it somehow mystically stabilises. For example in DAV20 13th gens increase the difficulty of disciplines they try to use by one. In keeping with this reduce the penalties in 14th generation and 15th gens though maybe not introducing 16th gens yet and have someone in lore pointing it out as a curiousity.
Ok here is one of the big big things I see being a problem. A large chunk of people are calling for cross gameline impact, Technocracy etc. I’ve always been wary of such things but regardless of whether you like this idea it probably shouldn’t happen. Hear me out, even if you love it think of it practically, you would need to nail down any future new editions for the other lines in how their end times affected them to one degree or another. This is very impractical and bond to cause conflict down the line and huge issues because in five years you are coming to do a new Mage game and either having your hands tied creatively or making a division between them. Keep what happened to the other denizens of the supernatural world largely unknown. It may be a few years have passed (if the Maelstrom is kept in some form) but how much attention have the Kindred been able to pay attention to the others. Nothing in depth, maybe have a few rumours floating about making them think what is going on with them, hang a lantern on it basically.
Following on from this whether overtly connected or having more subtle connections I would suggest considering the cross compatibility of the sections. If a Storyteller wants to crack open the Garou and a Malkavian starts using dementation the Storyteller isn’t standing their going “Ok he’s asking for self control and path rating and why do werewolves not have these as stats.” If they are involved in the world together such rules should work though this is a hurdle. Similarily some merits and flaws dont’ work the same even if they are the same. Look at V20 and W20 and how they handle Iron Will. I felt this and a few other cross compatibility issues being ironed out were a missed opportunity when the 20th Anniversaries came out (as many groups like to keep all the supernaturals in the same world, I can take it or leave it personally). Even on a more fundamental basic point if a human picks up a knife and stabs a man from behind in werewolf and in vampire 20th anniversaries they work differently, in vampire it’s difficulty six with two extra dice to hit but in werewolf it’s difficulty two with no extra dice to do the same. I was one of the admins for a cross venue game and it was frustrating that a ghoul and a kinfolk had completely different mechanical rules for using a kinfolk. Yes this is not what you were asking for but I know a lot of people will be suspecting new lines coming and this has to be a notion that is introduced earlier rather than later in the development of a new series of editions. Werewolf has better core combat mechanics, I’d advise just lifting these with a few tweaks.
…I’m so sorry that’s way longer than I expected.
Good points above, I tend to agree with most them.
Since Eddy specificaly asked us about Gehenna: I always thought about it and the whole Antes thing as somewhat too much. Members of the 3rd generation are slayed before and probably will be in the future. It’s not the norm, no need to degrade them too much, but it happens. They’re insanely strong vampires with wast resources but they aren’t invincible. And they aren’t stupid to stand up to the front. So I suspect the waking of them as a world shaking event, which brings a lot of changes in the status quo, just not world shaking as a disaster (I’m generaly like the original idea of the ciclical Gehenna, it’s much more realistic). More shadow war, more changes in the upper echelons of the sects, that kind of things instead. The average vamp of the street probably can’t notice it, if she isn’t in the middle of one of the bloodier struggles.
The Camarilla’s leadership probably have a hard time to keep up face before it’s members. Maybe they try to keep their subordinates in the dark. Or pushing for more centralization because of the new threats. I don’t think that the average camy just saying “hey, the Sabbat was right all along, lets hop on that bandwagon!”. They are still very far from the more human approach that the bulk of the neonates and ancillae follow.
I suspect there will be another post in the future about rules, crossover and whatnot, so I don’t waste digital ink here too about them.
One thing lastly: please, whatever this Gehenna will be, whatever bringing the game to the 21st century means, please, please keep it and the setting Gothic and Punk! 🙂
I agree. Some of the most iconic aspects of the game and setting need to stay. To me, those things are the depth of lore and mystery, and that includes Caine and the Book of Nod. The game must keep the Gothic-Punk theme and setting.
The ongoing battle between damnation and redemption, Humanity and the Beast, the Sects, and the struggle between the younger Cainites and the Elders. These are all large parts of Masquerade.
The fear of or jadedness towards Gehenna, the sense that it is coming, or to a lesser extent, is here, are major aspects of the setting and story.
Something that I also kind of feel is required would be to have some glimpses at the world since 1999. What does New Orleans look like these days? How about New York? Mexico City? Vancouver? Or Ireland? Africa? Etc. . .
Any major changes need to make sense. Similar to the Ravnos near destruction, it doesn’t just happen, and as it happened, it wasn’t just an immediate thing, but a week long event. But, that was also a bit of a special case, and probably shouldn’t be repeated. That is, shouldn’t just wake up and off entire clan in anger.
How is Gehenna (the book and four plots) going to be handled? Either it needs to be completely unknown/unknowable, so that everyone can choose what version(s) happened, or they ALL needed to happen, or are happening. But, either way, that’s going to cause a few issues. I mean Saluot/Tzimisce went public, and it’s pretty clear there is a 0% chance that was played off as a hoax.
Thin-Bloods. I always loved them, so this might be a bit bias, but they where the beginning of the end, and really need to be present. A possibly off the wall idea I had was that a lot of Thin Bloods might have joined up to create a new Sect, sort of similar to the Anarchs, but not. This could actually play pretty strongly into the Big Two, making a bit of a 4 way Night War, Camarilla vs Anarch vs Thin-Bloods vs Sabbat, possibly even forcing a bit of a cold war mentality between then all, pushing even the Camarilla and the Sabbat to sometimes work together against a common foe here, until one of them becomes the common foe tomorrow.
Hunters. The world has changed a lot, and I’d imagine that this has presented a great deal of potential, but an equal amount of problems for various Hunters, and the Hunt.
I read through the first dozen or so responses, then skimmed through the next twenty, then kinda skipped down to the bottom, mostly on account of reading the same things over and over. That is, it seems like we want answers to questions, but that’s not me. Here’s my hugely controversial position: Every question does NOT need to be answered, and in fact, the more QUESTIONS we are left with, the better the game shall be.
When Gehenna came, all the Kindred agree that it definitely occurred – or maybe even is STILL occurring as someone mentioned above. The thing is, no one (either in character or a reader of the book) needs to know what ‘actually happened’ so long as we clearly know the outcome. This is something that drives ‘canon’ fanatics crazy, I know, but it really gives me a HUGE amount of tools to use. Approaching the events of Gehenna as a toolbox that has a set outcome would be really nice.
It actually fits with some other metaplot and history that we’ve seen before (e.g. the events of Kupala’s Night and the fall of the Lasombra Antediluvian, circumstances surrounding the Tremere ascension to their Kindred status, how the Harbingers of Skulls came to join the Sabbat, etc.), and the idea of giving us OPTIONS would serve the game (as a GAME we all play rather than a narrative we read) far better than giving us an historic timeline of events. This should require some disclaimers, possibly on par with sidebars in M20 regarding ‘history that could have been’ or at the very least like we saw in V20 about the Assamites and Ravnos.
The above notwithstanding, TRUTH is a slippy thing, as the discussion above regarding ‘documentation’ in the modern era attests. To that point, notice how we never actually get a full picture of events, even when it’s all well documented. From civil unrest (see the St. Louis ‘riots’ or ‘protests’ depending on who’s reporting) to outright nation-wide events (as with Syria’s ongoing ‘civil war’ or ‘dissident uprising’) to even a cut-and-dry video of a police shooting, there’s ALWAYS a disconnect between ‘your version’ and MY version. The TRUTH lies somewhere outside of any documentation. I think that we – read: western civilization in general – have a tendency to confuse PROCESS and TRUTH. ‘Found guilty’ does not mean that the defendant absolutely did the crime any more than ‘found not guilty’ is a statement of innocence. Creatures with supernatural powers living (or not-quite living, as the case may be) in the World of Darkness cannot afford to take ANYTHING at face value no matter how well documented it may be, and that goes for technology, too.
An interesting point to suggest is that possibly there WAS a cover up that affected all of the world’s memories and media, but no one can pin down a culprit. Sure, plenty of groups point fingers – and some even take credit – but the fact that no DEFINITE answer has yet emerged fits very well into that toolbox approach for filling in the details.
…As for who survived, who came back or what the political and social landscape is like, I have full faith that it’s gonna be fantastic. The idea of presenting Gehenna as an historical event, though, is one where I think that less is more.
Some years ago, I would loved to get an Masquerade that is more like requiem. And then Blood and Smoke appear and changes everything. Why? Because B&S make Requiem more emancipated, more like a unique game. So now I wouldn’t change Masquerade in this direction. I would push it just the other way.
For Example: One of the thing I always hated about Masquerade was the generation thing. No matter how hard you try (or how many XP you spend) you could never rise by your own without committing the most horrible crime (Diablerie). Blood Potency (from Requiem) solved that problem. But now I would not make Generation more BP like. I would keep it as restrictive as it used to be. On the other hand I would fix this problem on the Fluff-side. I would make it easier for the PCs to commit diablerie. For example allow taking the Soulblood of criminals or committing amaranth on rivals who are (proved to the high judges) not worthy for the curse (Just like the Lasombra do).
Another example would be the fact, that your Clan determined both, your talents and your social status. Requiem severed that in Clan and covenant (Brilliant!). Now I would keep that and make it even more obvious and strict, but would introduce something like the opportunity to become adopted in to a clan.
The one thing I would ever keep is the huge, worldwide conspiracy. That is the core of Masquerade. Mark Rein-Hagen explained once, that his Ideas for a Vampire RPG where rather boring, up to the moment he came up with the conspiracy-thing. So conspiracy is the heart and soul of Vampire the Masquerade.
The problem I had with Gehenna is that it always went down exactly the way the Book of Nod said it would.
And all of the Antediluvians, these creatures of tremendous age, subtlety, alien philosophy and power… had more-or-less the same gross motivation of ‘eat everyone’.
‘Consume us whole’ could just as readily mean ‘Conscript us all to their designs against our will.’
Language shifts. Prophecies are misinterpreted, or actively obscured. And beings that are complex and manipulative when they’re dreaming don’t become simple, one-dimensional and stupid when they wake up.
So the one thing I’d like to see from the new edition is the realization that the Antediluvians are intelligent, aware, and that their desires and methods are very, very complicated.
Haven’t you heard of the new Prophet? They say he carries the words of the Antediluvians. He spoke with them while they were waking.
In my humble opinion I think one thing required to do in the masquerade is get rid of Caine and the all antediluvians in some way. I think Caine going to regret about stupidities He did and God can forgiven him, but before Caine need fix his all stupidities(eradicate all vampires), so sometime happen clash of interests between Caine and antediluvians, and they end up killing self, Caine die in this process but not before killing some antediluvians. All remaining antediluvians were weak after the battle so the Sabbat and/or The Inconnu see perfect opportunity kill them. After them succumbing there should be some pro-Caine/antediluvians dissidents don’t like about situation and decide create a new sect to combat Caine’s killers so in this way make a new Jihad.
Why would killing the Anti’s matter? They are not his childer, but rather his childer’s childer. So why not just kill all vampires?
It kind of sounds like the Nosferatu clan story.
I think it would be a combination of the most of the scenarios from “Gehenna,” except “Wormwood,” unless god has chosen for forsake Earth and Humanity.
1. The Antediluvians: The Antediluvians rise and fight, but not openly. These are creatures who would continue to fight the Jyhad in the dark. Tzimisce’s plan largely succeeds until Saulot sacrifices himself, taking Tzimisce & Tremere with him. The ones following Lilith come out of the shadows as well. However, at the end of this chaos, a mysterious hooded figure, slays Lasombra. Some believe it’s Caine, some Haquim, others are not sure, but it scared the Antediluvians into hiding.
2. The Clans: The Clan Elders all gain the weaknesses from “Fair Is Foul,” which makes sense, and further evolves the game; non-Elders retain the old Clan Weakness. Non-Antitribu Bloodlines maintain their old weaknesses, while Antitribu bloodlines gain the new ones.
3. Clan Assamite: More dangerous than before, this clan will be actively hunted (especially by Clan Ventrue, who use the blood to feed themselves). Ur-Shulgi is dead at the hands of his childer in Alamut, but the Baali curse still stands and has gotten stronger over time. They look for a way to break it, even if it means bringing Troile and her lover back.
4. Clan Brujah: With the rise of Brujah, the clan is on the run, especially the True Brujah. Members of the Clan are working with the stable members of Clan Assamite to bring Troile back, but they don’t know about the Baali elder that’s with her.
5. Clan Followers of Set: Felt betrayed and abandoned by their god, the Setites rejoin the Serpents of Light, and take that name as their own. They are determined to find and kill Set, where ever it maybe.
6. Clan Gangrel: They become the things that stalk the night. They attack cities, travelers and Garou. They take territories in the forests and guard them with their unlives.
7. Clan Giovanni: Ambrogino Giovanni tracks down Augustus and diablerizes him. Sensing that something was amiss, he creates a powerful ritual that can draw wraiths back from Oblivion, and does this to Cappadocius. After a heavy battle, Amrobino diablerizes Cappadocius, BUT it only allows Cappadocius to possess Ambrogino’s body instead. Fulled with Ambrogino’s potent blood and knowledge of last several centuries on Earth, in the Underworld and in Oblivion itself, Cappadocius wants to continue his quest to replace god.
8. Clan Lasombra: These Kindred vanish along with their Antediluvian. Rumours of death ships spread but no survivors are had to tell the tale.
9. Clan Malkavian: The Lunatics speak of a new prophecy. One that foretells the coming war between Caine and Lilith. No longer ignored but now greatly feared, the Clan becomes either a treasure of most princes or are hunted down by the ignorant who believe that if they kill the messengers, the prophecy won’t come true.
10. Clan Nosferatu: The Sewer Rats have gone into hiding after their numbers declined steadily with the rise of their Antediluvian. Rumors spread that Absimiliard will welcome anyone who repents for taking his blood…but few have tested this.
11. Clan Ravnos: With their Antediluvian dead before Gehenna, the Ravnos have had little personal trouble adjusting to the new world. Aside from the few remaining Elders having issues, the Clan seems poised to take over.
12. Clan Toreador: Lost in their own vices, Clan Toreador has become a mockery of what it used to be. They have become to the cities what the Gangrel have become to the countryside.
13. Clan Tremere: Etrius has taken control of what remains of Clan Tremere. The death of Tzimisce cleans them of Vicissitude, the death of Saulot left them without an Antediluvian and the death of Tremere left them without a founder. It is now on him to keep control of his clan and make sure their secrets don’t get out.
14. Clan Tzimisce: None survive Saulot’s sacrifice, though rumors of a bloodline from the Shadowlands claiming the name linger in the distance.
15. Clan Ventrue: The Blue Bloods have kept their “little problem” a secret to outsiders. On the inside, however, terror and blood flow like rivers. The Elders have used their positions of power to force the younger generations into submission and/or servitude, while those who break clan laws become dinner.
15. The Bloodlines: Most are still around, while others have been hunted to or near extinction.
16. The Effects on Humanity: Largely, the human world has been relatively unaffected. War has become worse. The Global Economy has become worse. Religious Zealots have definitely become worse. However, nobody has suspected a thing. Humanity as a concept has become mentally detached from the horrors that it has seen, and apathy is on the rise.
16. Sects: The rise of the Antediluvians, namely the rise of Tzimisce, forced an alliance between key members of the Camarilla and Sabbat. This sect controls a large swath of land and cities, namely the East Coast of the United States, with New York as its headquarters). Cities and princes quickly turn allegiances to the new sect, leaving the Old Camarilla a shell of its former glory, and the Sabbat as a hunted terrorist group. The Anarchs gained control of the entire Pacific Coast of the US.) The Inconnue have made their public debut, and has claimed Germany a safe-haven from the Antediluvians and sect wars, but nobody knows how they can achieve this. The Blackhand fights in the open serving the Antediluvians as their soldiers and warriors. More rumors persist that the Hand is only biding their time until the Dark Father calls for them to betray the Antediluvians and join his army.
…or at least this is the way I see it happening. *shrugs*
Well, there’s too many pivotal events from the “canon” timeline of the end times that are worth their eventual return. Mainly, in regards of Vampire:The Red Star, the Week of Nightmares are the cup of the cake, but I think a special mention is regarding the Eldest of the Tzimisce clan and his subtle survival. That thing is in fact, immortal as long as any tzimisce, tremere, gargoyle, or anyone with his blood walks around the world and his path of metamorphosis depicts him as a well-aligned major antagonist for any World of Darkness creature in my opinion.
On a side note, Tzimisce is Much more adequate as a world ending WoD threat than the apocalyptical breakthrough of the Malfean Lords and the Grandmother in Wraith after the Sixth Great Maelstrom. which is in fact another pivotal event worth remaining, although the end times for wraith are more fit for a high fantasy subplot like d&d that has several different world and dimensions defined, getting sort of out of place in a pseudo-christian mythos with a single working world where even the Wyrm seems out of place in it’s cosmological meaning, same goes for the ancient angelic cities of the rebel angels in Demon the Fallen. Also, eh, the Abyss:The source of Obtenebration, the Oblivion and the prison of the Demons. If they are indeed the same thing. Make it so in a manner that it doesn’t contradict one another.
I won’t get into Mage or Werewolf or the other ones, since I don’t managed to read all their published materials.
On a personal level, I hate the Tzimisce Antediluvian plot – objectively loathe it. A bad decision related to it played a significant factor in the death of a LARP I really enjoyed being a part of.
More to the point, V:tM is just not V:tM without the Fiends, and some… burbly goopile eating the Clan of Dracula is kind of an anti-ending and less than they deserve.
I would like to see them leaning away from The Thing-style body horror and more in the direction of some of the other themes explored in the clan – ancient lore, a nobility which is more based on the sword than what the Toreador, Lasombra, and Ventrue have become, and doubling down on their war against the Tremere.
Just think of Gary Oldman saying “I have crossed *oceans* of time to find you…” and build on that. XD
Once upon a time in 2010 I was Storytelling a LARP Chronicle that was exactly within the same context as the one that is to be depicted in VTM 4ed. In our version of the vampiric apocalypse it did happen but the main thing about the event was Humans destroying antediluvians as they have broken the spine of the whole vampire race. It lead to some interesting advances of plot and totally made the Masquerade and inner beast the main theme of the game… as well as the horror part of the personal horror 8)
“Assuming Gehenna came and went, leaving the Kindred changed but not eradicated, what events are interesting or exciting enough to reference in this new edition?”
A new list of existing Antediluvians (if any), like what was provided in the Gehenna sourcebook.
The Assamites. And the Baali.
Both Black Hand sects.
I like the idea of there being no definitive proof Caine, Lilith, or anyone more powerful than the 3rd Gen showed up for Gehenna.
While not the question asked, I agree with some other posters of doing some version of VtR game mechanics with the VtM setting.
So, I confess that I didn’t take the time to read through all the comments. I probably will read through them some other time but, in the meantime, sorry if my ideas are repeats of others on the forum.
I think the main conflict or question of this edition should be “Was this really Gehenna?” With any new edition, you’re looking to shake up the existing structures and factions of the system to create new conflicts. The questions around the TOJ events allow that. Think about the fallout from that question. What happens to the Camarilla after the events? “Shit, maybe some of these Sabbat fucks had the right idea.” Bam-defections left and right, maybe some on a local, individualized level all the way up to an entire Clan leaving (like the Gangrel did earlier). And vice versa, maybe some members of the Sabbat question their beliefs. The only real certainly is that, if the major factions survive the TOJ events, they are irrevocably changed by it. These changes lead to conflicts and wars.
The political situations resulting from the questions around Gehenna are one major source of storylines. Another is exploring the events themselves and their meaning in the cosmology of the world. What are Noddist scholars going to think? What rewards are they going to be willing to give to coteries to find out answers to their questions on their behalf? And how does the role of Noddist researchers and scholars change in the aftermath of “Gehenna”? For example, do obscure scholarly bloodlines like the Kiasyd or cult centered bloodlines like the Serpents of the Light enjoy some sort of rapid social mobility because they’re suddenly the guys that every vampire wants to talk to?
As for what to keep in and what not to…I think most of that is irrelevant. I don’t think any of the TOJ stories were something that couldn’t be reduced to rumor on the individual level. The mystery of what happened and what didn’t, and the surprises that come out from discovering that you might have been wrong are what’s important. In general, I would really only canonize things that happen to large groups of people. Leave things that happen to small groups and individuals as rumors and story hooks. And that doesn’t necessarily mean events are all or nothing.
For example, think about the Week of Nightmares. Lots of Ravnos went crazy and died. That was witnessed by a lot of people and can be verified. But can anyone really verify what happened to the Ravnos antediluvian? Of course not. If any of the Antediluvians had the powers to fake their own death in a spectacular way, it would be him. Step 1: Create a massive illusion of a nuclear explosion, or just withstand one with Fortitude. Step 2: Use Animalism to drive all of your descendants crazy at once to bolster the perception that you died. Very simple.
Anyway, that’s just my opinion. Again, I think the real opportunity here is approaching the question of “Was that Gehenna and what does it mean?”
What i liked about the VtM’s Time of Judgement and Gehenna books was nothing was solely for sure or cemented in stone as actually the way it ended. I feel if you remove any of the Clans from the book or any of the bloodlines then you lost what some consider the meat an potatoes of the game line. We all want gravy, that is the story, some like it thin, other want it thick, smooth or lumpy but they still want that gravy, to me the character are the bread, the ones that hold the meats and potatoes together with the gravy. The drink is the rules, i get that but don’t forget that from the first edition of VtM dessert, they delicious and decadent sweets has always been the metaplot to others ire. Heck, even the game line suffered from dieting and those anti-desserter’s who abstained from and ignored the 1st editions metaplots. It is all of those that made me want to play the game, to have it rummaged or taken apart to fix some creators vendetta against anothers artistic integrity and to remove its base foundation makes me quake in fear that this will be another undoing of what i LIKED about the 1st edition VtM.
Yes i loved the Gehenna Cult idea looking for the Last Daughter of Eve, in my game it was the last children of Eve a boy and a girl with a crescent tattoo, raven haired twins raised by Inuits in Alaska.
I also hated the fact the writers shoved certain Ant.’s down our throat but ignored all those others asleep (why must all but a handful be asleep?)or was diablerized…Sorry but i do not see Ishtar and or Arikel just playing second fiddle to Tremere, Tzmisce or the easter bunny. She would demand some attention, if not by them then with her twin Malkalv, and can i get a Mekhet clarification as he was mentions in a few supplements, does he create the newer clan? Is this the prequel to VtR? What i mean by that, through this game its being made as such, if it is i am ok but there plenty of meals and desserts to be had for sure but again clarification please. I would appreciate more info besides an off the shoulder nod, or totally being ignored way you all handled the Sons of Discord. I am one of those that bought these books to have later editions remove or tear away what intrigued or piqued my curiosity and kept me continually buying your games. So to have the makers of a game line i liked backpeddle or say they were mentioned as off the cuffs or nonessential is unfair to those of us who bought into the whole idea of escaping dreadful mundane normalcy and into a vat of personal horror only to have the rug removed and replaced with something cheaper. Just my two cents worth there.