Vampire: The Masquerade 4th Edition Announced at Gen Con!

V4-3 Promo

RichT here:

This isn’t really a press release announcement so much as a recap of our announcement from the What’s Up With cWoD? panel at Gen Con last week for the many folks who weren’t there. Once we have the panel audio ready I’ll link it, and if I miss anything here that audio should have it.

We started talking about having started work on V20 five years ago, and how 2016 will be twenty-five years since first edition Vampire: the Masquerade arose to darken the dreams of RPG gamers everywhere. V20 was designed as a singular book that compiled and polished all of the best and most iconic parts of the previous three editions. It was, as I’ve said many times, a “love letter to the fans of VtM“.

What it was not was a true new edition that moved the game design or setting forward. Nor was it created with the idea that we’d spring a whole new V20 game line from it.

We’ve smashed our creative heads against that almost since the first supplement. For example, V20 was written with the idea of not abrogating any chronicle that folks might still be playing, so we went back to a nebulous time frame that was just not quite the start of VtM Revised but mostly VtM2. But part of the intensity of VtM is feeling like it is happening Right Now, in a world very much like ours, but darker. Every supplemental book had to deal with that in some way, and we tried them all. Stymieing your writers and developers is really not the best way to get their most creative work.

In addition, the rules had been tweaked a tad, but not a lot, because as I said on a few panels at the time, if you’ve been playing for 20 years those little odd bits to the rules are something you’ve learned to work around for years, and will actually miss in some cases.  Fixing them isn’t a priority for a compilation edition like V20.

So that means that the last time the rules were changed for VtM was Revised, and that’ll be 18 years ago next year. And that is a really long time to go with a bunch of systems that need fixing, not to mention that system design for RPGs has been in a constant state of evolution since then.

Set against both setting and rules needing attention was the simple fact that V20 is really great at being exactly what we wanted it to be, so for a while we tried to make it work as the basis for the line. Every year we’d talk about the next projects and we’d run into so many blockers to the amazing projects we could create. So when we looked at 2016, I proposed V4 to Eddy Webb, our VtM line developer, and all this last year we have both discussed this ourselves, and Eddy has been in contact with folks we’ve called the VtM Stakeholders in order to try and define the parameters of just what a new edition of Vampire should be.

These folks are a selection of smart and talented folks in both the tabletop RPG industry and outside of it who are dedicated to Vampire: the Masquerade in its many forms. We discussed all aspects of VtM with them in order to give us what Alan Moore calls a “high altitude pass” over the entirety of Vampire and to give us a feel for aspects that we might not be as aware of because it never touched us in the ways it did these folks. Besides tabletop creators from both the early days of WW as well as designers now working on different games, we had experts in the modern horror genre, ex-members of the WoDMMO team, VTES players, LARPers, and others with more obscure knowledge bases.

Some of them gave us their best thoughts on the subject, others committed but couldn’t do much due to pesky life issues, and a few others dropped out because of disagreements with our process. But that very process did exactly what we needed and gave Eddy the ability to pull together these disparate ideas of just what VtM means to people, and from there to take the first pass at creating a “bible” for writing of V4.

Which brings us to this year’s Gen Con and how, when, and why we announced it as we did.

We didn’t announce it to prime you all for buying it, we announced it as simply as possible because that announcement is the start of a time when Eddy will begin posting blogs asking for your thoughts on V4. Some might be general, others alarmingly specific. There will be a time for coherent marketing campaigns – this is the time for creation, and we want and need your involvement.

The announcement starts the time that we are going to take our current ideas and slam them against the white-hot emotional anvil of our on-line community and see whether they are as strong as we think they are.

The announcement starts the first time that designers have the opportunity to truly communicate with our VtM community in the creation of a new edition of Vampire.

The announcement is also the first time we can engage at this stage of a project with any of our Open Development Process, which began during the creation of V20 in it’s most basic form, and like other Open Dev Process projects, we will be interested in hearing what you have to say, even if we choose to go a different way. The Process has never been intended as a vote or popularity contest, nor as a way to force our creators towards design decisions they don’t like. It is a communication tool we are excited to be able to use on V4, but it’s not a mandate from the masses.

We did reveal a few more things at the panel:

  • V4 is the next edition of Vampire: the Masquerade, which means that it is the successor to VtM Revised Edition, not V20. V20 was a compilation, not a new edition.
  • The format of V4 has yet to be determined, but the one thing we do not want it to be is a single huge volume like V20. We want this edition to please all our current community, of course, but it is vital that V4 is accessible to new players.
  • That being said, V4 is the next edition of Vampire: the Masquerade, not a different vampire game. We love VtM, and are not totally reimagining it. We look at the modern era of Doctor Who, or Mad Max: Fury Road as examples of how to create a new version that is right for its time but still evokes all the qualities that the originals did and can still be seen as a continuation of the whole series.
  • We will be setting the setting in the year it releases (our plan is for 2016) and the overall setting will be one that traces back to where things left off with Gehenna. It will not be post-apocalyptic.
  • Mechanics, they need changes. We’re looking at some new rules mechanics that simplify the previous versions while boosting the connection to the themes of the game.

Because V20 was a compilation volume of the very best elements of the earlier editions, it struck me that it was really still a 20th century book, even though released in 2011. V4 is going to be the first edition of Vampire: the Masquerade created for the 21st century. It is a different world now than in 1991, 1992, or 1998. I was proud and honored to be able to work on Vampire during all those years as well as on V20, and am thrilled to be able to work with all of you to make V4 the latest in that proud lineage.




224 thoughts on “Vampire: The Masquerade 4th Edition Announced at Gen Con!”

  1. After some trepidation, I have to say that I’m looking forward to this. I would really love it if Victorian Mage were developed with the same core system. It would be such. Great way toe perimeter with and test out the new system’s flexibility. Just my two cents. 🙂

  2. Beautiful write up.
    I have witnessed first hand the difficulties of playing VTM with people born in the 90s. 2YK just happened before we even knew what its significance was. I am very much looking forward to new stories that allow us to play Vampires with a new feeling of mystery and dread.

    Can’t wait for more information!

  3. Great news! I’m really looking forward to this 4th edition since the Gen Con announcement. I think it will be amazing to be part of the creation process. As a long time gamer and fan, I can’t hardly wait.
    Also good to know you don’t intend to design a post-apocalyptic setting, nor some Requiem mashup. Not that I don’t like it, I just think they should remain independent game lines.

  4. Bummed I missed the first half of the seminar. My question would be, do you feel like the *other* 20th anniversary editions were new editions?

    • They at least blur the line more and more between what is and isn’t a new edition. Certainly by W20 we knew there’d be supplements, and Mage20 had further coverage of what’s been happening in the last dozen years or so. Even if Wraith20 and Changeling20 stick to previously-established setting, mechanically they’re being treated as the Revised editions they never had.

      So for V20 it’s easy for us to point out the difference and see the need for a V4. That gets harder to be definitive about with later projects.

      • That’s kind of what I thought, since there wasn’t even an Onyx Path or any thought of further cWoD when that was being written. I am curious to see what changes will be made in the system itself.

  5. Looking forward to seeing how V4 grows. I hope to see a blogpost in the future about the differant creative space V4 and nWOD will occupy.

  6. My excitement in regards the project is really contigent on precisely what changes are going to occur. There’s a “Raze it to the ground and build anew” approach and a “Warts and all” approach. While the Ideal is probably somewhere in the middle, I, personally, am more interested in the former. There’s a lot of what I view as unnecessary chafe both mechanically and thematically.

    Its not really fair to say that I want is more important than anyone else wants, however, I just want to adjust my expectations accordingly with the school of thought that is actually guiding this endeavor.

    • I kind of feel it’s pretty early to define expectations since the months to come will be a great chance to let us know how much you want to see changed.

  7. if I had known a 4th edition of Vampire was coming,in the future, i would have passed on V20. Now I cab imagine a set of new editions for mage and Werewolf and the others will be coming along.

    • Satyr already did a lot of the heavy lifting for making sure that M20 had options for being set in the modern era, including specific call-outs for how the Traditions, the Technocracy, and the Crafts moved forward after Mage Revised. M20 is a lot more forward-thinking than V20, and will likely be fine.

      Or at the least, it’ll be fine for five years. Is five years that bad a churn rate in this industry?

      • Alright, let’s run some numbers:

        DnD 1st ed = 1974
        ADnD 1st ed = 1977 (3 years)
        ADnD 2nd ed = 1989 (12 years)
        ADnD 2.5 ed = 1995 (6 years)
        DnD 3rd ed = 2000 (5 years)
        DnD 3.5 ed = 2003 (3 years)
        DnD 4th ed = 2008 (5 years)
        DnD 5th ed = 2014 (6 years)

        VtM 1st ed = 1991
        VtM 2nd ed = 1992 (1 year!)
        VtM Revised = 1998 (6 years)
        VtM 4th ed = 2016 (18 years :V)

        VtR 1st ed = 2004
        VtR 2nd ed = 2013 (9 years)

        Five years sounds somewhat reasonable, AFAIK.

        • Every single time we have ever announced a new edition, some people thought it was too soon, others not long enough. It’s a subjective concern different for everybody. Nothing we can do about that.

        • Nitpicking here, but why leave out 20th in that list? I’d say 20th is sort of to Revised what D6D 3.5 was to D6D 3. While not an official NEW edition, it’s still an edition of it’s own and deserves it’s place in the timeline 🙂

          VtM 1st ed = 1991
          VtM 2nd ed = 1992 (1 year)
          VtM Revised = 1998 (6 years)
          Vtm 20th Anniversary Edition = 2011 (13 years)
          VtM 4th ed = 2016 (5 years)

  8. Looking foward to it! I have the leatherbound V20 but I really want to see an improved VTM. I expect a bold revision of the rules. Have to say I’m impressed by what was done in VTR-2 and expect something of the same quality or better. As the setting goes I’m trying to keep my mind open. I’m eager to see what Eddy has to show us.

  9. Are there any discussions to coordinate the elements of updated story from the BNS MET VtM update in order to keep the evolution of the story consistent across all mediums of the VtM line? I understand they are under different publishing companies now, but it may cause some discontent if tabletop goes one direction and MES a completely different in story. Thanks and best of luck with the project.

  10. WHAT! I wasnt consulted! didn’t you know I’m the greatest most knowledgeable vtm fan like evar!

    I am insulted!

    ::insert fan entitlement rant here::

    In all seriousness though..this looks awesome and thank you guys for doing it!

  11. I’m a sucker for your stuff. I’ll be getting it. Now I need to see if I have contact info for any staff to try to get into play testing. 😀

  12. I’m looking forward to VtM 4th edition.

    To use music as an analogy, to me V20 was about getting the band back together to do a greatest hits tour, to play all the songs we love.

    VtM 4th, is about making the band relevent, to make some new songs that reflect today, that are about now.

    Anyway, that’s how I see it.

    • I’d posit that the system goals for Classic World of Darkness are irreconcilable with the system goals for New World of Darkness. They already play wildly divergently, and have moved further apart over the years.

      And hey, I’d say that Onyx Path’s concern over either division cannibalizing sales from the other is next to nil by now. They’ve been running in parallel for years without incident.

  13. Im sort of confused… is this supposed to be after Gehenna? meaning one of the settings/scenarios in the Gehenna book (like wormwood) take place and things pick of from there?
    Or just pre-Gehenna, but ignoring it for sake of continuity?

    • We already did pre-Gehenna so that’s unlikely. The extent of the scenarios effect on V4 has yet to be determined, but we know that we aren’t doing a destroyed mortal world.

      • Now you’ve got me ravenously curious.

        I never meant to drift away from Masquerade, but time and money being tight I decided to focus on nWoD’s second editions and new games. Now though, you’ve got me wanting to bust out all my old books, especially the Gehenna material, and start brainstorming ways the world might have survived the vampire apocalypse. Good thing I’m on vacation next week.

  14. COOL! Thanks for this info!!! I have always loved the world of VtM better than the NWoD, but I love the New system better than the OWoD. Not that we have not had a lot of fun with VtR, mind you. But we all grew up to the old Vampire rpg, so it is in our hearts!

    I so look forward to seeing what you have in store for us!

  15. My trepidation would be in the complete invalidation of VTM 20th anniversary, and it makes me a little concerned about future 20ths. Supporting a KS to receive a 20th anniversary that may then receive a new edition only a few years later would be very sad for me.

    • Different x20ths will be handled differently, and there is no perfect time between editions other than what you do with it. We aren’t labeling these as 25th anniversary editions, so there’s no lock on when any of them come out.

  16. I’m thrilled! When speaking to non-vampire players I typically describe VtM as the best idea, setting, and backstory you will ever play… And the mechanics need house-rules for balance. 🙂

    What happens when Ur-Shulgi is awake for enough time to act? Will the Inconnu ever make a play? What are Nakhthorheb, Seterpenre, Maatkare, and Set’s other children are up to? Their eldest are just as world-shaking as Ur-Shugli, theoretically! Did Antedilluvians actually wake up? Did the Sabbat win? Did the Cam change their tune? Do the Baali factor into the Vampocalypse? How did the Tremere-Saulot struggle play out?

    I like the idea of V4, and you can either decide how the world changes, and make the cogs fit, or you can decide how these individual pieces play out, and decide the world that paints… I think the latter is at least worth the thought-experiment. 😉

      • So, you are crowdsourcing the continued metaplot? Not a good idea. If you absolutely insist on doing V4, then I’d expect it to be closed development, extensive playtesting in a closed community, and a punctual release for next years Gen Con as normal book, not kickstarted cash-grab.

        • Your expectations are not in line with where we are going. We have no interest in shutting out our community (and even less interest in letting them call the shots) during this process. But since you see Kickstarters as cash-grabs and not the amazing community experiences that they are, I don’t think there’s any point in further dialogue. You’re going to be happier not engaging with us on this project.

          • I completely agree. There are highly intelligent, die-hard fans of this game. Listen to what they have to say, but don’t let them make the decisions.

            Another thought: At some point in this process you might consider asking the community to submit the most broken/disruptive/abusive things (mechanically) we’ve experienced in our campaigns. It might highlight problem areas that need better mechanical attention in V4? I assume many ST’s out there have already come up with house rules to address some of it. 🙂

  17. I wish you luck, but I am really feeling the NWOD is the red haded stepson here. I hope you show me how I am wrong at the next year or two

    • How so? We’ve released 2nd Editions of two WoD game lines (VTR, WTF), with five more om development (nWoD, MTAw, PTC, CTL, HTV). How is that not paying attention to nWoD?

    • In what terms do you think nWoD is getting screwed? As Ian notes, we have been working our asses off to get out the 2nd Editions of the whole setting. And creating a new game just about every year. How much more do you think we could do with it that we aren’t?

      • Well, the VtM had a 20th anniversary celebration, with a huge fanfarre and every whistle and bells being ring, nWOD 10th anniversary wasn’t even remember. Well, maybe GMC would be the celebration from this relevant event, but it lacked the proper divulgation and noise. Basically nWOD got an “hoorray, here is the second edition” and nothing else.But V20 got a huge fanfarre and later it got several suplements which went to Kickstarter, but at the same period you funded

        The absence of any additional effort to promote the new core second edition books and a lack of communication and PR made nWOD Second Edition books ignored by part of fandom. And let not forget Beast’s ridiculous streching goals.If we compare Beast with Mummy and Demon, we are going to see Beast which got about the same from both no extra suplements funded (okay we have two Beast books scheduled, but considering OP previous schedule could be part at any stand up comedy rotine – yes Exalted 3 and W20, I am looking to you)

        And by the way you could get a better Social Media and Media strategy. You are investing a lot of money at nWOD core books, but you are failling to people who aren’t hardcore Onyx Path fans notice them.Maybe some few dollars at some suits like Hootersuit and think out of One Shelf infrastructure might do some miracle to you. had you wondered to publish your books at Amazon and Barnes and Noble?

        BTW, are there any place where people can get your brand new catalog out of One Shelf? I don’t think people would like log on RPGNow or Drivethru rpg to get your catalog. Nobody want get that kind of promotional product clicking more than once at a link (trust me, more clicks you do less interesting the catalog gets).

        • I think there are some legit points here, but those self-same points are also things that RichT and the rest at Onyx Path have totally copped to before. Moreover, these points are ALL things that Onyx Path continually seeks ways to ameliorate those at the very least.

          …As for ‘new’ World of Darkness getting no love, have you SEEN Vampire: the Requiem Second Edition? What about the new Werewolf: the Forsaken? They are lavish and wonderful things, BUT like V20 to V4, those Second Editions were not so much built as World of Darkness Second Edition. The God-Machine Chronicle was a ‘sorta’ Second Edition, and now the PROPER World of Darkness Second Edition is being made.

          Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all know that mileage varies and whatnot. Still, I’m on the side of RichT and Ian here, and that’s mostly due to the fact that we all learn as we do. Perhaps the very openness of Onyx Path’s development process shows us more ‘how the sausage is made’ than we’re used to (on both sides of maker/consumer divide), but I appreciate the candor.

          • VtR 2.0 was about a year late and since the release no sourcebook’s have been published. In the meantime, V20 has gotten several books published, a couple more on the way. For Requiem, nothing has been published since the initial 2.0 core. That’s why I think VtR is apparently not generating enough sales to keep it truly alive. Instead you are concentrating on V4, an edition that nobody needs. Oh, before you ask: for a gameline mostly driven by nostalgia, forever and a day is the best time till a new edition (because after V20 you don’t really need one).

          • VtR2 also has a couple on the way. Rose has been really busy and has had more than a few authors need to be replaced along the way. VtR2 sales were phenomenally good and combined with Blood and Smoke: the Strix Chronicle sales more than justified the effort.

            And no, you are simply wrong about V4. You may not need it, but a whole lot of folks are absolutely thrilled by the idea, including us here at Onyx Path.

        • Yes, we didn’t do a wahoo for the 10th anniversary of nWoD. We got you sorely needed new 2nd Editions instead. 10 years is not 20 years, and nWoD was never stopped. We advertised them as best we could and no more nor less than the cWoD books. If you are a marketing expert, then cool, I’m sure there’s more you can see us doing, but we are exerting the effort towards marketing that we can. In all my years at WW, we always had people absolutely sure we should do more, advertise here or there, but rarely did they have proof that said advertising avenue would increase awareness or sales.

          I have ranted about this many times, but what the hell, here’s another one: DTRPG is currently the sales partner we use to directly sell our projects to our community. We also have KS for deluxe type books that are traditionally printed. Using these two methods is our current business model and it has worked delightfully well for us. We do not need sales staff not a warehouse for inventory, and therefore can exist in our very tiny and barely sustainable part of publishing. We continue to look for ways to integrate the FLGS into that model, ala KS Retailer Tiers and our PoD Retailer plan on DTRPG, but we are not desirous of getting back into the traditional 3-Tiered Distribution model that WW once used. That way lies ruin. I am always open to strategic alliances to get our projects out to more folks, but not at the cost of wrecking Onyx Path long term. Slow growth, not wahoo press releases about awesome deals and merges. I intend to have Onyx Path publishing cool worlds until I die, so I’ll let a chance to get ground up in B&N’s machine pass until there’s a way that makes sense to me and the rest of our Onyx crew.

          You can get the brochure at a con, but you’re still going to need to buy the stuff inside at DTRPG, so you might as well go there to download the PDF.

  18. I’ve seen a lot of discussion on the forums about altering the presentation of some of the clans, particularly the independents, who still have ties to unfortunate ethnic stereotypes. What sorts of things are you planning for the clans (and bloodlines)?

    Also, were the rules changes in DAV20 part of the process of moving towards a new edition?

    • There was some thinking that we tried out in V20 DA to see the reaction, yes, but we may not just port any exact changes as V20 DA had to work at least somewhat with V20.

  19. So weird. I’d really like to know how this works, ‘cuz y’all pretty definitively ended oWoD the head with all the Apocalypse stuff back in ’04.

    • Well, in this case it’s Gehenna, and obviously the end of the mortal world did not occur as prophesied. And some readings of the Book of Nod never intended Gehenna to be about the mortals, but metaphors about the Kindred.

  20. Why not focus on delivering all the 20th versions first. Let’s face it, pretty soon after this you’ll start pushing WtA 4th, Mage 4th and a 4th of all the other systems.

    This is a horrible idea, V20 works as does the usual cWoD system. We don’t need a 4th edition. And this basically tells us that the 20ths we have paid for and are still waiting for are going to be obsolete. Good job guys..

    Why don’t you just release a rules update like you did for God Machine? But I’m pretty sure I know why you wouldn’t… because you want to make money and you know that just enough people out there will buy the same content with a slight rules tweak because you tell them to.

    The direction this company is going in is shameful. How about, you finish the projects that you have and get them out first?

    While you’re at it… Where’s exalted? You call us Toxic as a community and ban anyone who disagrees with you or your policy. Hell, I give this post a few minutes before it gets taken down but there’s a reason for the negativity you’re getting from the fan base and that’s because of the way you treat us. It’s been over 3 years since you took our money for EX3 and yet you keep asking… while disrespecting us at the same time.

    Not that it matters to you guys, but you have lost me as a customer and every single other member of a 200 strong rpg community in Australia

    • So yes, I know it is a real bummer that Onyx Path has to make money to continue to put out all these amazing game lines. Personally, I’d love to be bankrolled by a really rich guy who just lets me create games. Reality, unfortunately interferes.

      That being said, no one knows how many years the other lines will continue without the need for 4th Editions. Or what form those 4ths might take. All we know is that VtM needs one now.

      We continue to create and release projects across the spectrum, and every line and project is different. Exalted is coming very close to release of the backer PDF, and its line continuing, and it is the longest outlier in that regard. We have not asked Exalted fans to back any further Kickstarters for the line, so I’m afraid I don’t understand your complaint there. Nor do I believe I have ever shown disrespect to our Exalted community, since I feel no such disrespect for them. As was made clear in the Exalted forums, we decide if your posting is toxic and act accordingly. Neither our forums nor these blogs are a pulpit from which you can insult us. Crazy, I know, that we think we don’t deserve that very intentional disrespect.

      First you accuse me of only wanting money, and then say I don’t care that I lost the money of a 200 person group in Australia. Well, which is it?

      • Am I upset about the slow progress of EX3? Oh yes, I am. Does that mean I blame RichT or anyone else? No. Why? ‘Coz we have been kept up to date on what’s happened, and THAT is something that we take for granted too easily.

        I love V20 for what it is, but I’ve said for years now (and much more THIS year) that V20 is NOT a new edition. Mage’s Twentieth Anniversary comes closest to a new edition of any of those, and in comparison V20 is a poor substitute for Fourth Edition. You don’t need to agree, but you don’t need to attack anyone for it, either…

        And RichT, you don’t need to justify everything to trolls. Those of us who know what you do have your back, and while I wouldn’t want you see us as your ‘attack dogs’ (or ‘fawning fangirls’ as the trolls see us), know that you’re far more appreciated than vilified by everyone I know.

      • I, for myself, am really happy that Onyx Path is making enough money to justify their efforts and hope they can keep on earning even more in order to keep producing such marvellous books!!!
        P.S.: Some people complain as if they were forced to buy any new book that will be published… I thought the World was about há having more options…

    • I wish I could say that I didn’t disagree with every single thing in your comment. But I can’t.

      I for one, LOVE that we’re getting a 4th Edition of Vampire, as it’s sorely needed.

      And Onyx Path continues to pump out quality book after quality book. So the direction the company is heading in is fantastic.

      I’m not sure when Rich said your community was toxic, but just based off a single post here, I’d say you’re not doing yourself any favors.

  21. I am excited to see the new edition, but from a fan standpoint I’m having trouble with the “V20 wasn’t a real edition” idea. As editions go it was conservative with rule and setting changes, but it is still distinct from the editions that came before it, and presumably that which will follow.

    It would feel better if my big, fancy, expensive book were treated as real edition that sits between Revised and What Will Come Next, even if that wasn’t the intent when the book was created. Otherwise, it makes the book and its rules feel a bit ambiguous and neglected.

    Would it be so bad to call the next book 5th Edition and let us fans feel like the V20 books we bough were a real edition after all?

    • Sorry, but we have to follow our line of logic as we see it (and as I laid out in the post). Since you are not in the position to try and build a continuing game line off of V20, you might not see the issues as we do, but they are there and we have to proceed with what we see.

  22. This is good and bad. It’s good because it gives me more toys to play with. It’s bad because I’m writing a cross-over chronicle that includes cWoD, nWoD, and several other games and stories. The amount of notes I have on this could easily rival nWoD: Dark Eras in size (I enjoy writing and world-building so this is not at all a chore).

    Short form: I’m excited! 😀

  23. I have mixed feelings about this. Anyways… Really curious about how the plot will continue.

    I would like to see the some smart changes like the ones that Requiem 2nd ED had. Ex: kindred senses, the sunlight bane… but please, no owls! Vampire are their own enemies…

  24. Surprised yet joyed to see that a large number of fans appear to be supportive of this move. While it may seem “too soon”, as illustrated by others, new editions are quite frequent in this industry.

    With the rumors of post-apocalyptic being resolved, there is another matter that was getting a lot of interest on the forum thread: is there any consideration of excising the more… questionable elements of the CWoD, such as the racial/stereotype clans or elements of the Kue-jin, in favor of a more cosmopolitan vampire society?

    • Well, all games are products of their creators and the times they created in. Having to do writing research from only books or friends who had studied the subject vs a quick Google is just one way that the early WW writers just did not have the tools and the info and awareness they enable back in the day. Our ability to understand other cultures beyond the pop-cultural influences is so much improved now.

    • I agree on the whole avoiding stereotypes thing. I’d just hope for a general push away from ethnocentric siring practices, at least on the part of more cosmopolitan Covenants and Clans.

      And can we make the Kuei-Jin more like the Laibon, in that they have an obvious connection to Masquerade, rather than being utterly different? I know it’s way too early to expect that, but given the amount of work that would require, getting a clear direction set would likely help, IMHO.

      • So you want to eliminate the entire cosmology and storyline of Kindred of the East?

        I think it’d be better to add bloodlines of Kindred who have ALSO infiltrated East and Southeast Asia, and groups of Kuei-Jin who have infiltrated other parts of the world, rather than invalidating an entire gameline with its own separate cosmology, and retconning all the ways it interacted with Werewolf.

        • No, I just want there to be fewer excuses not to play that particular splat in a Masquerade game. As written, it’s a very hard sell for some groups.

      • One of the reasons Kuei-Jin are different from Kindred is that they’re based on the myths of East Asia, rather than porting Eurpean myths into the area. I’m sure the presentation included some junk, because that was true for other gamelines. But I think that forcing non-Western myths into a Western mold has its own problems.

        • Rather KotE is based on the false dichotomy of the “East and West” which are based on more on racism and orientalism than reality like treating East Asia as a different planet than part of our world and plus the Yellow Pearl metaphors with the “Great Leap Outward”.

          So in the end, KotE is still nothing more than a product of racism that needs to go and hopefully Oynx Path will allow more diversity and representation in the future.

  25. I’m excited about updating the setting! I know it’s extremely early in the process, but I’d like to see a weaker Camarilla and Sabbat: more free states and cities controlled by independent clans, etc. It seems that whatever did or did not happen with Gehenna, a lot of Cainites (and Kindred) would question their alliances and their leaders.

  26. Just a thought. In the past, the conflict of two great vampire powers–Camarilla and Sabbat–was somewhat reminiscent of the Cold War. But now we live in a world without those binaries. The greatest threats are non-state actors. Could you play on that by making a new threat. Maybe the thin-blooded got organized and started a terror war on everyone. They can have a wide variety of abilities, are very fluent with technology, and some of them can go out in the day time. Maybe some great leader emerged who (through prophecy, a new shard of the Book of Nod, or whatever) envisions a whole new order without any clans or sects. To bring this about, a lot of other vampires need to die. Even if they didn’t hold much (or any) territory, their ability to blend in with the population could up the paranoia level of any chronicle.

    • The national and international situations have certainly changed since the 90’s. In a lot of ways the World of Darkness predicted where we are now. That background, and how we view it now, is absolutely part of why we need to move to V4 and what we are discussing.

  27. When I mentioned this to my players who are long time fans of V:tM they regaled me with long tales of their games playing it. They seemed to enjoy it. However, one thing they kept repeatedly coming back to again and again was Celerity. Multiple actions bogged their games down and almost ruined them. They explained a time when there were some players with 8 actions a round using the multiple rolls per attack V:tM had that ended up taking so long the other players read their way through the Harry Potter series during their combat turn downtime over the course of the campaign. The V20 Celerity was not enough to convince them to give it a try as they saw the same problem waiting in the wings with it.

    So, from them at least, take that as a call for making large scale mechanical revisions.

  28. Quite a few people that in Belgium that have fond memories of VtM. Only issue would be that combat always dragged on due to clunkiness.

    Otherwise, really excited.
    How will the storyline be tackled?

  29. seeing a 21st VtM is an exciting prospect. I hope to see more technologically based thaumaturgy and rituals as the Tremere like always adapt like they do to the new world. And how vampires have integrated the change in society and servalience into their lives. How peoples obsession with social media makes it harder to hide bodies, and get away with breaches. All the fun possibilities~

  30. Although i love the idea of a new edition for VtM, but I’m a bit concerned with the V20 compatibility. I participated for the V20 lore of the clans kickstarter (for example)and should I put it in the trash when I will receive it because next year it will be outdated? Ok, you know that I won’t put it in the trash, but you see what I mean…
    Whatever, I’m happy to see that VtM will have a modernize background. Can’t wait to see what you have in mind guys.

  31. What i want is a system that allows the World of Darkness to be about all the lines being compatible. I also think that the whole cold war between camarilla and sabat should be gone and the antedeluvians should be awake. Let the factions go from 3 (2 plus anarchs) to 13+. More options for me is always better for storytelling ideas than less options. The world hasnt ended yet. ok. Mages, werewolves, changelings and wraiths still walk the world too. great. vampires rule the night so lets see what V4 has to say for itself. Oh and keep Celerity just make it an inherent thing that all vamps get based on spending more blood to do it. then things even out across the board.

    • Keep an eye out in the months to come when Eddy starts to ask our community for just those sorts of thoughts so you can join in- thanks!

  32. I really find the idea of the V20 line as a compilation hard to buy.

    If it only had been one or three books, maybe all tome-y there wouldn’t be an issue from my side.
    Yet there are currently 6 splatbooks released (HH2, AU, RotB, CotR, Companion, Red List) with 5 more splatbooks to come (BH, BJD, LotC, LotB, Ghouls) plus some supplements. With some of the books being totally new material like Lore of the Bloodlines and Becketts Jyhad diary.

    • The V20 line was not, V20 was intended as a compilation. Then, as I stated in my blog post, the authors found it very difficult to maintain that and struggled to create the line we both wanted and knew it needed to be to properly evoke Vampire. That you see value in those books is a testament to their talent and effort.

      • What will happen to the metaplot elements from Anarchs Unbound and Rites of Blood? Will they get dropped or integrated? What will happen with new developments from Beckett’s Jyhad Diary? Dropped or integrated or even paving the way to V4?

        • With all the possible things in those books and all the options you list: yes. Just because it was in a V20 supplement does not invalidate it nor insure that it will be in there. Also, there are going to be a ton of things not in V4, the book, that will be possible in V4, the line. As stated in the post, we are not intended a huge all-in-one volume this time.

        • It indeed was.

          But I’d personally would prefer to see a larger setting volume for 4th ed. Sort of like the old World of Darkness-books, but focusing on just getting the old by Night books up to date with new political and worldchanging events, instead of one paragraph per city, at least a chapter per old by Night book and an appendix with some other cities around the world shortly summarized.

          It’d be more useful really.

  33. Well this seemed necessary for a while now. I always felt the popularity of V20 and the (unexpected?) tempo of follow-up books put a lot more pressure on the game line than V20 was built to withstand. In particular, there seemed to be a lot of interest to have the supplements provide a modern look at vampires, which was at odds with the fact that a large chunk of V20 was not only not-very-modern but also explicitly dealing with the pre-Revised era.

    Which is fine, V20 was supposed to do that. I love it for doing exactly that. It just seems that expectations for new books are pulling the line in a direction that is opposite to the nature of V20. So, V4 sounds like a very solid idea to put down foundations for a modern line of books.

    Now, I’m firmly in the nWoD camp. But, still, I am very interested to see where V4 will go. Hopefully somewhere relatively new! Having V4 do to Vampire what Fury Road did to Mad Max sounds like an awesome idea. But, whatever the case, I’m fairly certain I’ll be happy to include the V4 core book on my game shelf.

  34. Considering the system changes planned, how much of the V20 line do you expect to be usable with V4? Given the timeline involved it’d be interesting to run a campaign with a first act before Gehenna in the V20 setting and a second act post-Gehenna in the V4 setting, but it’d be a huge pain to have to do lots of conversion from one act to the second.

    • V20 itself, as it compiles the things that went before, should be pretty compatible for setting. The supplements will have various levels of compatibility, I’d think. For systems, we need V4 to have the system that best accomplishes the approach we want for the game, so no design goal to match V20 is part of that.

      • Thanks, Rich.

        Incidentally, since we’re going from V20 as a summation of what has gone before, via Gehenna, to V4 as a presentation of what comes next, I’m inclined to refer to Gehenna from now on as “the Great Dividing By Five”.

      • (Incidentally, for my part I’d hope to be able to use V4 for when I want to do something fresh and unexpected with a Vampire game, and V20 for when me and my fellow 80s kids want to put The Cure’s “Charlotte Sometimes” on loop and do old school Vampire like we remember it from back in the day, embracing all of its quirks and oddities, and it sounds like that’s what you’re aiming at so tentative thumbs up so far.)

  35. In regards of the system and mechanics can you give hints where are you heading?

    I would love to see completely new system that relies on strong mechanics to enable the game. I am currently amazed by new approaches like the “Powered by the Apocalypse” games.

    Opposed to another W10 pool system with a target number to be met and successes to be counted. Which I wouldn’t consider a new system.

  36. Nothing invalidates anything. Think of v20 as pre-gehena compendium of everything that came before. An edition that regroups and allows you to play in that era in the best way possible and then 4th edition is post gehena. Its a new era to play in that is sufficiently different to warrant it own source books exactly like dark age did. The dark age source books did not invalidate the revised sourcebooks in any way.

    I for one am 115% behind this. I have been hoping for this to happen to werewolf for ages and I am glad the vamp fans will be able to sink their teeths in this as will I. Gleefully.

    Thank you Onyx Path.

      • Great! Then, if w4 also makes sense if and when it happens, I say this now: Keep me a spot. Because I WILL be pledging at the level where we are involved in decisions and get to see all the emails. There is no way I am not going to miss this strike of fortune. I will howl in the name of all my four-legged compatriots! All hear the animal born.

        But for now, like any good elder vampire. I will bid my time. And enjoy V4.

  37. Great, great news! I’ve been playing RPGs for almost 20 years now and VtM is the kind of game that I always like to play, so the news alone is just awesome. Me and my friend wasted countless lunches discussing this very possibility. My only fear is the “clash” of vampire material in general. V20 was something that we knew that had a purpose, it was a comemorative edition, and it had its beggining and end. I think that VtM will be a on going line of game as the Requiem is, so are gona have two lines of vampire books, similar in a lot of ways, being published by the same publisher. You see were my fear is based?

    • We’ve been running both VtM and VtR for years now. They are very different games with different playstyles and we plan on keeping them that way. Thanks!

      • But dont you think that VtR will be kind of cast aside by the “awesome monstrosity” of VtM in a bunch of aspects? For me, the only aspect where Requiem that is “weak” is the whole not knowing the origins of the vampires thing. If you put’em both in the blender (Masquerade and Requiem), the product will be perfect. But with that in mind, I dont see the point of keep the Requiem line going. I think I am starting to lose myself in my ideas…lol. Anyway, GREAT NEWS, AWESOME TEAM!

        • Personally, I prefer the shroud over the history of Requiem’s Kindred. I also really dislike “Turns out one religion was totally right about everything, the rest of you can pack it up and go home.”

          So putting VtM and VtR in a blender would probably get me to stop buying either games so I could check out, say, Undying by Enigma Machinations or Urban Shadows by Andrew Medeiros.

          Or just hold on to my 2nd Edition NWoD books.

          But my point is, I probably wouldn’t keep buying Vampire products from Onyx Path since I *like* that VtM and VtR don’t work the same way.

          • A lot of our community agree with you and we’ve been fortunate with Requiem 2nd that we could push away from VtM even further. We aren’t interested in closing that gap and blending them, although there may be some aspects that draw closer just because they can be read that way.

  38. How do you plan to create a new edition by 2016?

    If I didn’t misread the entry the only aspect fixed is that it will be set after Gehenna and that Gehenna haven’t had a notable influence on the mortal society.
    The setting hasn’t been fleshed out beyond this, the rules whether they are just another form of d10 pool against target numbers or new haven’t been designed.
    Compared with the speed that the 20th Anniversary Editions, Exalted 3 or Cavaliers of Mars came to life I would have thought of 2018 as an optimistic estimate.

  39. bit worried about this simply splintering fan-base / company focus… But that might just be because I’m pretty happy with the Vamp stuff as it is and would want to see other new products before going back to it.

  40. Being a longtime fan of the classic World of Darkness and having backed quite a few of the 20th Anniversary Editions, I must say I have really mixed feelings about this, both where money and story are concerned. I feel rather strongly about the latter, since the Gehenna / Apocalypse / Ascension books kind of put an end to the world as we know it and I really, really hate retcons, which happen to be the norm in mainstream comics, for instance. I find there are a couple of outs, such as avery old article from the White Wolf magazines, that tried to imagine “what would come after”, by creating both a post-apocalyptic setting and an underground society that would try to rebuild the world, as well as fleets of umbral and space ships that went on to colonize, seek a new home etc. The other option, I think, would be to have the various surviving supernaturals retreat to their respective umbrae and find a way to work together (for whatever reasons – there’s a nigh infinity of options) in order to give pgysical form to the world once more.

    I confess I am not at all a fan of the idea of “oh, the world didn’t end after all, so it’s business as usual”.

    In any case, I would strongly suggest the combat system be radically amended and simplified. I always found it was the most problematic aspect of every WoD game ever.

    I guess we are all watching this development with vested interest.

    • Gehenna, the book, gave multiple options so there was not really an “end of the story”. We will take up that story to show the effect of whatever did happen and how that reverberated through Kindred society. Obviously, more on the details in the months to come.

  41. Even if I knew this was coming I’d have purchased V20. It was amazing and this project sounds very promising. Thanks for keeping the WOD alive

  42. I am very hesitant to be enthused about a new edition, considering that I feel that V20 is the epitome of VtM. I have always felt that to bring out a new edition for the sake of having a new edition is, to me, problematic (it was DnD 4th Edition that ruined my enjoyment of DnD, so much so, that I refuse to play DnD since).

    Also, to have V4 to continue after VtM: Gehenna? I find this to be distressing. I was not a fan of that book, however, the only way I can wrap my mind around it, is if you start off with Caine digging his way out of the ground in the 2nd Alternate Ending (pg 209).

    I guess that I will take a “wait and see” attitude.

    • That book was always meant to be about options. Suggestions. How to end with a bang. None of it “happened unless you chose to wnd your game like this. This was repeatedly said back then.

      Now, V4 is not trying to tie it up and end it like Gehena did. Narratively it would need to go in drastically different directions. And it actually makes more sense to me now that I think about it. I mean, these are freakin old vampires here. Gehenna was never going to be a one night event. They have been planning this for millenias and probably will try to off each other as they go. This is, to me, the real Jihad starting. It’s going to span an effing long time and its going to be both subtle and brutal.

      For example. Dominate 9. Lets you control all your blood line even in torpor. AKA Ventrue started the camarilla. Not the clan. The antidiluvian. It happened because he wanted it to it is no surprise they do not beleive in Cain and the antidiluvian themselves and that mathuselah who know better preach this lie. It’s all part of a greater plan. One that is not going to just end with a bang in one book. And I very much doubt it’s any different for all the other antediluvians.

      • Alternatively….
        “Camarilla? Oh, that new toy the youngsters were playing with? Yes, well I am sure they’ll grow out of it now the real game is on.”

  43. I am VERY excited by this! My wife and I love Vampire, and if a 4th Ed is coming then we are getting it for sure!

    I can’t wait to see what follows Gehenna! Would I be wrong in guessing that the metaplot will take its cue more from the end of the Novel than the Sourcebook?

    Anyway, however it goes, I’m sure it will be great! Just keep the Lasombra Antitribu (my wife and I just love those guys!) and I’ll have no complaints!

  44. I for one am very excited to see a new edition of Vampire the Masquerade. If they’re as good as the 2nd Editions and new lines of nWoD, I can only imagine that I will be “squee-ing” into the night and running more tabletops than there are days in the week.

    I am so excited, I drew fanart. That’s how excited I am. ( )


  45. I could not be more pleased to hear this. I’ve wanted an update to the VtM setting for entirely too long.

    I’ll definitely be on the lookout for questions that the team poses to the community.

    • A quick note to those unfamiliar with our current model: all of our books are released as PDF/PoD books. We use Kickstarter for a limited (deluxe) traditional print run only. Even if a Kickstarter failed, everyone would still have access to the book, and the deluxe book you get from a Kickstarter is not print-on-demand.

  46. I am looking forward to the new V4. I do wonder, will you make use of the much larger knowledge pool available when it comes to settings and situations outside North-America? I always felt that VtM was very focus on the “New World” and while later supplements tried rectify the situation a bit, the games mechanics and standard terms at it’s core are very North-American style.

    I am looking forward to the discussions in the future and the time when you will invite people to contribute.

    I am looking forward to see the setting moving into the 21st century.

  47. I didn’t see anything above about this, so I’ll ask… Sorry if it’s already been addressed.

    So, does this change any of the plans for upcoming V20 projects, most notably the Tal’mahe’Ra book? For me, I’d be satisfied with any answer, but I’m curious nonetheless.

    I do think that some of the V20 supplements were dead brilliant, The Hunters Hunted II at the top of that list. In terms of still being useable with any incarnation of V4 – a term I do not like, but I’ll get used to it – I can see how Rites of the Blood or the Anarchs book won’t be universally applicable. That said, I’d love to see that Guide to the Tal’mahe’Ra book, no matter what else happens with my beloved Vampire: the Masquerade!

  48. This talk of a post-Gehenna setting which manages to not be post-apocalyptic reminds me a lot of Underworld: Awakening, in which the Masquerade fails catastrophically in the first 10 minutes and there’s a big social convulsion but then the mortal world kind of then shrugs and gets on with it as normal.

    If you told me back in 1995 that by 2015 I would not only be living in a world of semi-permanent warfare from 2001 onwards and in which the possibility of terrorist attacks killing thousands of people had gone from a theoretical nightmare scenario to something people have witnessed, processed, and are now used to as part of the fabric of their world, you’d have astonished me, but it’s amazing just what we can get used to as being “Normal” and just how weird the world’s got in the past few decades. Whatever form the Masquerade takes in V4 – whether it’s the global coverup of old or whether it’s been revised from “Don’t let the kine know we exist” to “Don’t let the kine know we *survived*”, I’ll be interested to see where you take it.

  49. In regards of the setting, I am not totally opposed to change, as long as those aspects that made the game and different concepts fun aren’t changed or dropped.

    Like the removal of the family / dynasty aspect of the Giovan(n)i in V:DA and the replacement by devil worshiping and a pyramid structure. Which are in my opinion not only unimaginative but as well better addressed in other clans.

    • From the post:

      These folks are a selection of smart and talented folks in both the tabletop RPG industry and outside of it who are dedicated to Vampire: the Masquerade in its many forms. We discussed all aspects of VtM with them in order to give us what Alan Moore calls a “high altitude pass” over the entirety of Vampire and to give us a feel for aspects that we might not be as aware of because it never touched us in the ways it did these folks. Besides tabletop creators from both the early days of WW as well as designers now working on different games, we had experts in the modern horror genre, ex-members of the WoDMMO team, VTES players, LARPers, and others with more obscure knowledge bases.

      • I’ve read the post, and that’s why the question arose. Perhaps I should have been more specific:

        What are the names of the stakeholders?

        • Any stakeholder who so desires it will be credited in the book. We’re not going to list them until then as many of them will be asked for further thoughts as we go along. Thanks!

          • So the integrity and future of a beloved franchise is in the hands of an anonymous group of individuals until the project is complete? That’s not terribly reassuring. Quite the opposite, in fact.

          • No, V4 is in the hands of Eddy Webb and his writers and the VtM community. By and large the stakeholders are done with their part of the project, except for the potential of asking some of them further questions. Who and what the Stakeholders provided is pretty much immaterial to the actual work still to come. What they provided to us was the extent of the reach of VtM and insight into how different facets of the VtM community view and engage in Vampire.

          • Ok, that wasn’t entirely clear from the post. I was under the impression that they would be more involved as the process moves forward. Thanks for clarifying.

  50. Oh man, this is exciting. One of the best things about VtM is its style/lore/fluff, and to bring that into the 21st century (as Rich T stated in the post) I think would be a really great and engaging thing to dive into.

    I’m hoping to see more posts in the future detailing the collaborative process behind the development, emphasizing how this will enrich and not rehash what we all currently know and love. Pulling more players into the vibrant and bloody world of VtM will only help to grow the fan base and strengthen the products, and so I applaud Onyx Path and their efforts to do just that!

    I’m looking forward to this being a breath of fresh air for a beloved game line that could use more of a reboot than new cover art. Speaking of art, any plans to include works by artists from the original VtM book in VtM 4th? This news made my night.

  51. I am always excited by a new edition. But as hyped as I am, I don’t understand why the game world and meta-plot couldn’t be continued within V20. I always thought the core book could work being somewhat meta-plot agnostic and the splats, supplements and player’s games could evolve the setting & meta-plot. I mean me & friends years ago never bought VTM Revised but we did buy all the revised era books (guide to the Sabbat still awesome btw), and those books still worked with the 2nd edition well enough, (even tho we didn’t need it because we knew it all by heart.) So I guess that was my question, why couldn’t VTM continue with V20 being the main book and the other books spin off and flesh out that modern setting and plot? Are the V20 books that have yet to come out/kickstarted being written to be compatible with V4? Man, thinking about it this seems like a incredible challenge,lots of masters to serve, I would not want to be Mr.Webb.

    • Because folks don’t buy all the supplements, so advancing things through them means we have a main book that is just not designed to advance, and additional books that contradict it.

      • hm. Now I’m curious to see how much is going to change. Whole clans gone? new ones? I have so many questions! I guess I can understand how some people could be upset tho. V20 still feels like it still has a lot of miles left on it. a new edition is still exciting tho, you know, those BIG moves. was there any concern internally on how this announcement would affect the kickstarters for the yet released V20 books like ghouls or black hand? THANKS!

          • so no deluxe Black Hand? Was kinda pumped to see what you guys would come up with for the Deluxe version cover after seeing what you did with Book of Wyrm’s.

  52. Very excited to see where this is going to lead.
    My mind is racing at the possibilities.
    Updated mechanics are cool, but I’m more interested to see where the Kindred find themselves in 2016.
    How have the Clans fared?
    Have the Sects had to change their ways since we last left them?
    Still, if it’s anything like recent OP products it’ll be amazing.

  53. Well this is great news. My favourite game getting cool new content. My only worry is how take it could be compared to previous editions.

  54. One of the things I loved about V20 was its density. It was a huge book and valuable because of the absence of unnecessary fluff, but more than that I felt like it, more than any of the old books, respected the fact that by playing the game my table and I were writing our own stories. We didn’t need a third of the book to be devoted to telling us stories. All we wanted from the stories in the old books were the local color.

    This was particularly bad with clan books; I know that’s offensive to a lot of people, and I sincerely mean no disrespect to any of the very talented writers who worked on the game’s fiction, but I genuinely felt like many books were a bad investment when I had to buy 30 pages of material I would never read to get 10 pages of new rules.

    V20, by comparison, had a little bit of atmosphere, but it felt like the story was pared way down by comparison–correct me if I’m wrong; I know the word counts are out there. I know V4 can’t and shouldn’t be as sparse on fluff because it’s supposed to be accessible to people for whom VTM is entirely foreign, but I hope you consider keeping the fluff in check; I would be fine seeing a unit-discounted package containing the Core Book (necessary rules), Storyteller’s Handbook, and Player’s Guide (with more fluff).

    If, of course, I’m wrong about my ratios in V20 compared to V2 or V3, then I’m willing to just be pleasantly surprised by the quality of integrating rules with story in V20, but this was honestly the first thing that came to mind at the mention of a new line.

    Secondly, please take it easy on the metaplot. I know it’s asking a lot, but by way of example, my group started playing in the NYC setting and we’ve recently been playing in DC. In both cases we used the by Night books for events until ’99, and then took it from there with our own material (often including years of bridge work to get us to the time we were playing, for recent games). I would be frustrated to find myself competing with a new canon backstory for the last fifteen years that underpins any new material I might buy. It’s one thing to have ongoing canon development when the line is live, but another when the line has ended and there’s no real hope of revival (surprise, surprise!). So what I’m asking is that to the maximum extent possible the writers make sure there are hard lines between the years from the end of previous development until the beginning of the new metaplot. Or in other words, don’t put out a new NY by Night that sits a Prince in New York in 2001 and tell me he’s still in the chair in 2016. We already know what happened from 2001 until 2016, because we all had to write it ourselves.

    I know that’s a little silly, because it’s ostensibly very easy to hand-wave the differences between game canon and local canon, but for those of us who have been playing for a long time, the differences start piling up, and eventually you reach a critical mass where the only thing you can safely tell a new player is “Yeah, don’t read X book; nothing in it happened for our group.” I feel like V4 ought to have a unique opportunity to deal smartly with this, because it’s an issue at which other updated settings (looking at you, Forgotten Realms) have massively and epically failed.

    And thus my wall of text is complete. I probably wouldn’t be so wordy if I weren’t SO EXCITED!

    GET HYPE. or something.

  55. It will be all ok for me if Clan and House Tremere has dominated the whole world anyway!


    Ok, not exactly dominate the whole thing, but you all just make sure that they will have the (high) position they deserve!

  56. What I have wanted for VtM is the setting with the NWoD rules. The old system is just that. Old and clunky compared to what has come since.

    Personally I’ve never cared much for the timeline, since I make my own stories. Very little official material (ie. city books and such) has had any meaning for me to use.

    So, I seriously hope that the Gehenna thing will NOT be a huge part of the update of the setting. Personally I could do without all that.

    Mostly I’d prefer to see a serious update in systems and a few tweaks in the setting to make it more current with present times.

  57. I’m intrigued there about the 4th edition. Will be interesting to see what you guys come up with (especially how / if a masquerade is still possible after Gehenna). Also interesting will be if we will see more of Caine and Lilith.

    A few questions though:
    1.) Will all the old (3rd edition) splats make a come back to the 4th? (I’m even more a demons fan than a vampire fan).

    2.) Are there plans already if also some of the “gehenna” type events happened for other splats / if so or in case if they happen will there be indications already in the vampire splat book(s)?

    3.) Am I mistaken or did not something like Gehenna happen already in the metaplot? (around the time of the 1st city / its destruction). Been a long time since I read the metaplot.

    4.) In case that the sales will be as hoped for / expected. Are there plans already if 1 or 2 splat books will come out per year? (in case demons comes last (if at all..see question 1^^’) I’m calcing the worst case scenario already for how long I need to wait for it 🙂 (yes I’m addicted to demons the fallen and? 😀 ))

    • One thing I just saw:
      5.) What is going to be the base for the Metaplot? revised or V20? (aka ravnos still fully existing?)

  58. Since you mentioned hearing our thoughts on what a new edition should look like, allow me to point out that (obviously) you can’t go wrong with bringing back the tried and true roots of VtM (classic clans, relationships, factions and mythos) adapted for the mature, well realized rules and mechanics of nWoD. The masses told you this and you brought us Vampire Translation Guide, which shed light into the matter but should be largely replaced by the new edition, if Cain intends it.

  59. Hello,

    I’m a french Storyteller of Vampire (VTM, DArk Ages…) playing since the beginning of the game and I’ve became a huge huge fan of the VTM game, his world, his characters and mythology.
    Gehenna was for me an accomplishment after mastering a chronicle from the Dark Ages to the modern time. And the final was… just perfect.
    As I’m not a fan of Requiem, when V20 was annouced I was happy to add a masterpiece to my almost complete collection and start a new travel to my beloved World of Darkness.

    So my first reaction to your VTM V4 annouce was : “Seriously ? It’s a joke ? You only tell us NOW that you will make a real new edition ? Do you now how many money I spent on your f…… V20 books ? ” .. and much more (my english is not good enough to tell your all my arguments).
    I was very angry (and hungry but that’s not your business :)). The last time I was so disappointed was when the VTM trivia Game was cancelled.

    And I’ve just came here to read all the comments, question and you answers. They give me some hope.
    I really really hope that the V4 background will be “a damn good universe” .
    I really really hope that you will find a way to include the Gehenna in the history in a good way (with consistency) and not just saying “It’s your WoD of darkness, do whatever you want with, how do you call it? Gehenna, yes” .. as you did with Caine for example.

    I’ll be forever gratefull this game, really. The World of Darkness is my favorite fiction of all times.

    But if you plan to make a new reboot of the Wod, please don’t call it Masquerade.

    Now, after thinking about it, I would please to have a great new 4th edition. But what I fear most is that V4 looks like Indiana jones 4 : a thing that shouldn’t have been done.

    So if need anything to help you in this new version… just give me a call. France is ready to give his contribution 🙂

    May the Auspex be with you.

  60. Great news!! It’s still very early, and nothing or very little information about what awaits us. But I love the idea of a new updated edition and with such an interesting metaplot as a post-Gehenna. I’ve always seen the V20 as a collector’s edition. Barely add anything new, any pill here and there but little else. I hope you do not make many changes to the stereotypes of the clans only to be more “politically correct”. The good thing about the Ravnos was his past linked to the Gypsies, I completely dislike it becomes more of a vampire clan from India. Vampire has always been a game of not only racial but also social stereotypes (Brujah are rabble, Gangrel are wolves and nature lovers, Ventrue are a snobs, etc). In the hands of the players was the role of making your vampire totally against these stereotypes or just to show that these stereotypes are not always met even if shared nuances. Or just be what was expected to be a vampire of that clan. I would also like to see something more of the mystery of the unknown who shared the first editions of vampire. I do not know if I explain. That neither the narrator nor the player knew for sure that was what was to come. And everything was in the hands of the narrator (secrets and false rumors about the Sabbat for example). New clans, new bloodlines, new sects, loyalists facing Lasombra and Tzimisce creating a real Sabbat against the antediluvians, anything is welcome, there are so many possibilities! Here we are eager to more and agonizing over the long way we still have until we know more and we have this new edition in our hands! You so evil You are evil because of announcing as soon… 🙂

  61. I loved Vampire it was really what made me stay in the RPG world, but i was also a big fan of Werewolf TA, is there any plan to bring it all back?

    Thanx for bringing VTM back let the shadows be our shield

  62. Will there be new V20 Deluxe Kickstarters?
    I think I remember it has been named a possibility that Ghouls, Black Hand and Beckett’s Jyhad Diary could be offered a deluxe version via Kickstarter projects.

  63. So a lot of answers are due to the future. I understand that. But, can we have an aproximated estimate of when Eddy will start to blog about V4? Or at least, if we could have a dedicate newsletter or some thing of sorts I would subscribe for future updates.

  64. I have very mixed feelings about V4, that can probably best be described as “wary but hopeful.”
    WoD is probably my second favorite tabletop gaming setting (first place going to Exalted/Creation. I’m still a total WW/OPP fangirl.)
    I found NWoD to be, with some exceptions, mechanically superior, but the setting and everything felt universally inferior to me. (I should note “universally” isn’t purely universal, since I don’t know much about Wraith, Mummy or Hunter and cannot comment much on setting changes from those.)

    It wasn’t until the translation guides were released that I found myself really able to use the new books. (The release of 2nd ed is also helpful, as it’s a lot better than NWoD 1.0, though I still find OWoD’s setting to be far more compelling.)

    I think that’s my biggest worry. I’m going to get it. I know I am. But I’m worried that without something like the translation guide, I’ll find myself unable to make use of it, especially if there’s a lot in there I don’t like.

    (As a side note, I’m capable of enjoying and appreciating both original Changeling and new Changeling, which from what I’ve glimpsed from fandom is ridiculously rare. At the same time, I actually think original Changeling added more to the overall setting than NWoD Changeling, though again, I love both.)

    Sorry for the rambling. To sum it up, I’m worried but I’m still going to be buying it, possibly as a special edition if offered.

  65. Man this is so unexpected. But I see it from the point of view of a WtA fan, and W20 seems to have updated the setting for a pre-Apocalypse 21st-century.

    I didn’t realize it wasn’t working out that way in VtM but I get that V20 was never designed to support a gameline.

  66. I here,

    First of all excuse my poor English because i’m belgian and i’m not really addicted to foreign languages.

    So i havent read all the messages but you said that some VTES players have participed to this project? So is there a possibility to see this marvellous card game return in the stores in the future?

    And working on VtM with cWoD is’nt to difficult with CCP? (i think they have all rights on it no?)


  67. This announcement has me all thrilled, excited and riled up. At the same time it has my spider senses tingling and my skeptic self going into hypermode.

    I really look forward to V4 because I totally agree there needs to be a setting update, and that such an update has been needed since the release of V20. In that regard I embrace a 4th ed wholeheartedly.

    But the skeptic side of me asks question like if we really need a new rule system per se, and not just tweaks (such as those in VDA20th) to the rules. Or if a new system and edition will be able to keep the soul of V:tm? Even if names or plot connect with the old setting, it doesn’t mean it will share the same soul anymore if rules and setting suddenly make it feel like a complete different game. Or why bother having a post-Gehenna setting and not just retcon that out forever and go from there? Or what use I will have of coming supplements I’ve been hungering for like Beckett’s Jyhad Diary and Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra using a V4 setting, if that renders them null and void. Or if it will just be the emperors new clothes…

    So yeah, I am super hyped and super skeptic at the same time. So I’ll just cross my fingers and hope you’ll make the best of listening to the community and do what you guys do best; make great games! And keep watching these blogs (and the forums) more closely again 🙂

    • > Or if a new system and edition will be able to keep the soul of V:tm? Even if names or plot connect with the old setting, it doesn’t mean it will share the same soul anymore if rules and setting suddenly make it feel like a complete different game.

      Has V20 managed to keep the soul of VtM? There is your answer.

      > Or why bother having a post-Gehenna setting and not just retcon that out forever and go from there?

      Because the entire VtM line was always inching towards it. Retconning it means retconning a lot of stuff since 2nd Edition as well. It is losing, not gaining.

      Or what use I will have of coming supplements I’ve been hungering for like Beckett’s Jyhad Diary and Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra using a V4 setting, if that renders them null and void.

      More than you think. As long as there’s Vampires and a Masquerade, the Jyhad will remain, in one form or another.

      And, the Tal’Mahe’Ra was destroyed during the Ends of Empire, fracturing further during the Week of Nightmares. However, such an ancient, deep and influential sect couldn’t just disappear in a puff of smoke, could it? Who knows, it might have survived in a different form.

      No, the books are rendered useless by a new edition. If anything, it’s the opposite: Both have the potential of empowering each other, allowing you to tell the stories you want to tell.

      • “Has V20 managed to keep the soul of VtM? There is your answer.”

        Huh? How is that even relevant? V20 was intended as a collection and refinment of Revised. 4th ed will be a whole new edition with major setting changes (since it’s post-Gehenna). Of course there’s reason to be slightly worried some changes in rules or setting takes it too far from what makes us all love V:tm.

        “Because the entire VtM line was always inching towards it. Retconning it means retconning a lot of stuff since 2nd Edition as well. It is losing, not gaining.”

        No. None of the 4 possible stories in the Gehenna module calls for a retconning of previous published material if it were to be retconned itself. I wasn’t saying they should retcon the Noddistic prophecies and events leading up to the Gehenna-book. Just ignore that books existence and write something more sensible instead, that doesn’t make the world an unplayable bore (all those 4 scenarios do imho).

        “More than you think. As long as there’s Vampires and a Masquerade, the Jyhad will remain, in one form or another.”

        Assumptions. While Jyhad indeed is essantial to V:tm, the content of the mentioned books might not be comaptible with the setting itself post 4th ed. We know nothing about any of the supposed changes they are considering. Will there even be a Camarilla or Sabbat? We have no idea what Eddy and Rich are up to. (I actually do hope the new setting has a Sabbat and Camarilla that finds themselves shattered, fragmented, crumbling and loosing influence, but that’s another matter).

        “And, the Tal’Mahe’Ra was destroyed during the Ends of Empire, fracturing further during the Week of Nightmares. However, such an ancient, deep and influential sect couldn’t just disappear in a puff of smoke, could it? Who knows, it might have survived in a different form.”

        Yes. And No. Consider the new Tal’Mahe’Ra book. The V20 is setting agnostic in many of these matters. The destruction of Enoch and that sect might be considered optional, just like Assamites joining the Camarilla, etc. But again, another discussion altogether.

        “Both have the potential of empowering each other, allowing you to tell the stories you want to tell.”

        Indeed. If for example Becketts Jyhad Diary is meant as a transition between the editions, it might be a really great thing. But we don’t know that, so you are making assumptions again.

  68. I am beyond ecstatic about this new edition, I will continue to love and adore Onyx path and you will always have my support Kickstarter-wise for the amazing jobs you guys are doing.

    Now here’s a hope of mine for the new version, a revised system for combat. At the very least some tweaks, while I understand combat is far from being the core-concept of the game, it does happen and it’s ‘VERY’ slow in its current state, multiple resistance rolls and the like often rail-road me into making a character that wants to avoid it, as it often takes SO LONG.

    Best of luck to all of you commenters and Onyx-path-workers. <3

  69. Having played VtM since 1993 I am very excited about this. Still playing it, but a mix of Masquerade and Requiem these days.

    V20 was for me a disappointment for I had not realized that it was nothing more than a compilation (with a focus on rules/powers) and having ALL the books already it didn’t do much for me. The very reason I am not buying V20 Dark Ages, even though I am storytelling a Dark Ages chronicle going on 4 years now.

    But an updated Vampire edition for this century sounds absolutely fantastic. Especially if it will focus on stuff for mature players (more like Requiem) and less like some supplements for VtM with endless lists of powers and crunch instead of stories, drama, tragedy and immersion.

    I have been very impressed with Onyx Path so far. The 2nd edition of Requiem was absolutely fantastic and so was the 2nd edition of Forsaken. So I can’t wait to see what you do with this! Keep up the good Work!

  70. I am excited to hear that V4 is in the works! Like you, I feel that “both setting and rules (are) needing attention.” I encourage you to put your best foot forward with V4. A lot of innovative ideas were introduced in Vampire: The Requiem. Use and alter rules from Vampire: The Requiem to make V4 the best edition of Vampire: The Maquerade to ever be produced. Looking forward to V4!

  71. As a huge fan of VtM’s metastory, nothing in a new edition could please me more than to hear that you’re picking up where Gehenna left off.

    If I had one request, it would be that you go full tilt crazy. Opting not to go post-apocalyptic is fine, but let Gehenna have been the end of one status quo and the start of another.

    Don’t tell us that Gehenna wasn’t televised, that the Masquerade was never threatened, or that the Sabbat never had to confront the facts that Lasombra and Tzimisce duped their childer to fake their deaths, or that no one ever found out about the Baali Methuselah that Galbraith was consorting with in Mexico City. Let this stuff have come to light, and have had repercussions in the years since the Ancients rose. Then write new secrets to be gleaned from the texts, naturally!

  72. It’s been my headcanon for over a decade that the Withering minimized the amount of harm that the Antedeluvians were able to cause; that for all their milennia of scheming, they simply waited too long. The ones who deserved it the most, like Absimilard, died of irony in whatever inhospitable clime they were hiding in when their Disciplines failed. Whatever the New Normal is, I can’t wait to see it.

  73. Maybe perhaps VtM 4th edition should be a completely different game if it’s post-gehenna as in the ‘Vampires’ are completely different as in there are no Kindred anymore but rather maybe the ‘Vampires’ should be based on more like Medieval Revenants who raise from their graves or basically the concept of the “Kuie-Jinn”.

  74. I’m rather excited to see how Onyx will proceed after Gehenna. I know I have some ideas about how it could be done, and I know I would personally LOVE to give some feedback on what happens to the Giovanni (my all-time favorite Clan), provided they survived of course. I would like to see them have a stronger (and forced) tie to the Shadowlands and Oblivion, and I’ve got some ideas on how that might work, especially with Necromancy, which I feel was rather shorted in the previous editions. I better stop now, I think, before I spend the next 20 hours typing. Lol.


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