25 thoughts on “Memorial Day nonNotes [Monday Meeting Notes]”

1. Oh, a change to one of the Exalted novels after all these years. Didn’t expect that.

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   • As we’ve been mentioning, we have moved on all of the Exalted 3rd fronts, particularly with the advent of our new developers. Plus, Aaron, is very excited to return to writing Exalted, so that’s a very big plus as to getting the work rolling along.

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2. Very cruel to make your cats meet when you aren’t. For shame!

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   • Never been able to _make_ cats do anything! Besides, it’s their meeting and we have no idea what’s on the agenda.

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   • This post made me laugh.

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3. I know I am asking for the Grail, but I am talking up the new version of TC to a friend of mine, any word on when the KS is going to be. Obviously after GenCon, but in that range of Sept.- Nov., can y’all pin it down a little?

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   • Nope. we have to see how our second half (or is it third third) of the year shakes out post GenCon, where we always have revelations and opportunities.

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4. Hi. Any more news about Mage F.A.Q?

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   • Yes. The aggressive posts in the Mage2 forum have compelled DaveB to put some distance between himself and the idea of working on the FAQ. Since the FAQ was entirely something DaveB wanted to do as a special thing for the Mage2 community, you’re going to have to see if he feels differently once his time opens up again. I’ve been trying for years to bring home to our community that the people who create our projects are people first and foremost, and deserve to be treated as such and not simply entertainment providing machines, and here is an example of what happens when a creator feels attacked, both personally and through attacking the company he has dedicated his talent and effort towards.

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     • Thank you for your reply. It’s a sad situation indeed.

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     • Goddamnit. First Mirthful Mike, now Dave. Why do people have to be assholes to the people who work so hard to entertain them? Dave, if you are reading this, we appreciate everything you do and will understand however much time you need to take for yourself.

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       • I’m not surprised. The OP forums are filled with some incredibly strange, self-important, people.

         There’s some good eggs, too. But holy hell can it be a minefield at times.

         I.E. the Changeling 20 thread about art.

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     • I’m really glad that you are helping and protecting your employees, and I think it’s a magnificient stance to take, similar to how good parents are uncompromising when it comes to shielding their children from harm.

       However, I humbly ask you to take a step back and look at this situation from a certain distance, kind of like how a parent should when they have to evaluate actions of their children when they hear about their misbehavior at school.

       I used to be a very active poster at the Mage board. I spent hours and hours of writing, hoping that things I write will help others enjoy this game a tiny little bit more. I have been always writing in good faith and avoided confrontation and aggression at all costs, because I simply don’t like to attack or be attacked. If you don’t believe me, you can check my posting history or ask people, like your mods; I can’t imagine having a reputation of a troublemaker or firestarter.

       There was a time when I felt personally attacked, though. Here it is: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/1047834-yantra-limitations?p=1048112#post1048112

       I have also passionately participated in both the community errata, and the FAQ. Again, I spent hours upon hours reading and rereading the book, looking for things that were either not very clear, looked dysfunctional, or had other problems that we were asked to find.

       This experience, combined with the tons of post aimed at helping my fellow Mage players, combined with helping my local Mage Game Masters and players, combined with playing our own local game, brought a certain thing to my attention.

       This thing is that, basically, a lot of people don’t understand how this game works. That after reading the core book, they either go ask someone to provide them with an answer, or they form answer of their own…which then, to their surprise, collides with someone’s else interpretation of this very same thing, and instead of playing the game, they have to either argue who is right, or forge a compromise.

       There is no common ground to stand on, because instead of providing a shared framework that creates bridges between imagination of very different people, allowing them to end up on the same piece of imagination land, a lot of elements of this game create questions that shatter them and force people to stay on their own imagination islands, unable to connect.

       Questions people asked – time after time month after month, user after user – aren’t about some esoteric aspects of the game that are unneeded to experience it. They are about very basic things that are needed to *play the game*. Someone asked why we need an official FAQ instead of creating our own, and answer to that was simple and depressing:
       We can’t because we don’t know the answers. We can only guess what was the intent or how something is supposed to work. And each user, each player, has their own interpretation. And most of these interpretations are mutually exclusive. I haven’t meet a single pair of people who had compatible “vision” of the Mage. And this is how we have experienced it in our play groups, and my friends player groups, and our Facebook group, too – people cant connect their viewpoints. They open up the same book, but they seem like each one of them read a slightly different one, and these differences lead to clashes, arguments and other things that introduce cracks and splinters into the fun of the game.

       Results? We have put our Mage game on hiatus, because while our GM loved the characters and the setting, having to constantly “research” the multiple mysteries and questions of this game was simply too exhausting.
       My friends groups? Games ended prematurely, mostly after arguments between players and GMs, because they simply couldn’t find a common ground; and, in a game where your are supposed to improvise your powers, common ground is key.

       We lack that common ground. The best thing we can count for is to submit to someone’s else interpretation, or force our own. Each one of us is playing “their own Mage”, not because of a informed choice, but simply because we don’t know what a “default Mage” is.

       So, while it’s easy to frame this whole thing as “community bullies a developer in order to make him answer some irrelevant questions”, I don’t think it’s fair. We have a magnificent Answer Simple Question thread, where people help each other time and time again, patiently explaining what they can. But many, many times, our only possible answer is “I think it works like this, but your guess is as good as mine.”
       Questions that are constantly asked, and repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, from different people, different times.

       I have been feeling lately that the default answer to this phenomena is supposed to be “the book is fine, it’s people who are not good enough to read it correctly”. And this feeling alone made me pretty much stop wanting to contribute to the forum, because I feel that my existence is unwelcome. I have been watching Mage forum closely since the open dev of 2nd ED…and honestly? The last 9 months were, like, maybe 2 or 3 posts with a short “FAQ out already? No? Oh, ok, see you later”. I feel like I’m being gaslighted about some kind of aggression and attacks aimed at the Dave, and I might even wake up one morning hearing that I was a part of them???????

       This is first time I’m going to say it, but to me, Mage core feels like a great game…but slightly unfinished and little bumpy. And this is why I cannot play it anymore. Nobody I know is willing to spend so much time before and in middle of each game trying to decipher what could the rules possibly mean. As my GM put it, “she doesn’t have time or energy to basically write the game – which include rules – filling out a questionnaire provided by the book”. We are supposed to be solving Mysteries in game, not “of the game”. I also know that I don’t want to play this game with strangers, because I don’t want to spend a week arguing about how my characters is supposed to function, because there is a real chance – this happened before, multiple times – where I will do something, and someone will say “whoa, I don’t think this works this way…” or even worse “Uh, I don’t know how to resolve this, how does this work?”, and evening is lost. Aggressive posts in the “any news about FAQ thread”? Most of aggression in that thread was pointed at people asking about the FAQ (!), not at the Developer. Again, I invite you to read the thread yourself, instead of relying on second handed information, as it’s pretty short.

       I’m really sad, because this book was a gift for my birthday. Waiting for it helped me fight my depression and gave me few months where I actually had something to look forward to and to think about future with hope. The fact that I’m unable to enjoy this game – and neither are my friends, and their friends – pains me.
       When people ask “FAQ WHEN?”, they just want to remove this obstacle and be able to enjoy the game fully, with clarity and knowing that they are “playing it right”.

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       • First, I very much appreciate both your civility and your efforts towards encouraging folks on the forums and in real life to play Mage 2nd. Thanks for jumping in where you saw a need in order to help folks understand and play the game. It’s that kind of commitment, and fortunately you are not the only person we can say this about in our community, that changes these games from simply being books to absorb, into experiences where players are communicating and debating with each other.

         This is part of the magic of tabletop RPGs, and something that, as a publisher, I try and keep an eye on for each book: how much interpretation is good and where does that cross over to becoming a broken game? Geist 1, for example, I would call broken as it stood when first published, which is why one of the first things Onyx did was to create the Geist 1.2 version. But plenty of people fell in love with Geist 1, and found ways to play it.

         Which is more of that tabletop RPG magic. Try and negotiate the rules for your favorite MMO with the system. Unless you’re hacking, you’re not going to get far.

         We’ve looked at Mage 2, and in my opinion it is nowhere near a broken game. It is complex (I mean: it’s Mage), and like any game of that complexity, there are plenty of parts where opinions on interpretation will vary. Your mileage may or will vary on just how much is OK, and there may be specific sections where DaveB felt he could clarify things with specific sections of a FAQ, but mostly, for most people, Mage 2 not only works but is a huge step forward for the line.

         Now, as for DaveB deciding to step away from any talking about a FAQ, that was his decision, based on his interpretation of the thread, that he made as an adult professional creator. I also have been reading the thread for longer than just this weekend, and found several posts to be objectionable. Since other posters were already flagging them, it wasn’t something I felt needed my involvement, but seeing things there develop as they did, I have no issues with DaveB’s decision.

         And as much as I appreciate your understanding of my position, I think it is really important that we never consider our creators as any kind of children, nor see me as some patriarchal figure. In terms of one of our creators deciding that a post, thread, or forum is offensive to them, I see myself as a fellow creator who also pours his heart, soul, talent, blood, sweat, and tears, into his work here, and who also would not appreciate being offensively communicated with. I do not need to defend them, they are more than capable of dealing with things as they feel they need to. Rather, I support them in how they need to respond.

         I don’t expect our community to be constantly flattering and ass-kissing any of our creators (unless what you’re posting is really how you feel!), but I will not tolerate the inverse and do not expect any of our creators to “take it” when communication becomes nasty, offensive, or too aggressive. Fortunately, to refer to your earlier point about gaslighting, no, I don’t think you have been a problematic poster, but ultimately, that’s a call each creator has to make.

         Or our ever-working and fantastic forum Mods.

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         • So does this mean he’s getting paid to do a FAQ or one will be included in signs of sorcery?

         • There’s nothing in my post or even the one I’m responding to that suggests anything like those ideas.

         • I know, that’s why I’m asking.

         • Those options are outside the scope of our current discussions.

         • Can I quote you on that? It’s for a blog.

5. Simple Rich, the cats are discussing how to knock your important items off of shelves or tables and get you to worship them..

   j/k Though I really do love the Monarchies and backed it as soon as it went live. My friends who are cat people love it too. = ^.^ =

   Also YAY for the M20 BoS getting close to the finish line !

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   • I knew it! 🙂

     Thanks! Glad Monarchies is working for you- we appreciate you telling your friends!

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6. OK read Lore of hte Bloodlines, excellent. Now any chance we can actually get a bonus directors cut and get the write up for the Blood Brothers bloodline…pretty please…

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   • I would love to write up the Blood Brothers, but we will have to see what the future holds! Please leave a review on DriveThruRPG!

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7. If I pledge for Kittens and Puppies living together, can I submit a Dog NPC?

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   • You have to pledge to a reward tier that specifically includes submitting a dog NPC as a reward. That’s a really big deal, we have to do a lot more work to incorporate those characters into the book/world, so they are higher reward tiers.

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