Okay, freak-beaks, I ran a little late on this and a little over word count, but the prestation chapter is complete and ready for your keen eyes. That is, this first draft is ready for consideration. Given some word count juggling I may do, this chapter may bulk up by 1,000 to 1,500 words as I layer a bit more from the Guide to the Camarilla in here.
It’s a quandary. I don’t want to nail everything down too specifically. I want to leave lots of room for enterprising players to wring the most from prestation, and I want devious Storytellers to be able to build new stories on the cornerstones of debts owed and promises unfulfilled. On the other hand, I want to offer enough substance that everyone has a good, fundamental idea of how their characters might regard the practice of boons and prestation.
Kick the tires, if you’d be so kind. Do we need more in here? Less?
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1QeMQYDDyQaMZmrJY8agsN4onTtqYMxyUXYx9liMrhS4
Couple of things regarding your presentation of boon transfers in the Camarilla:
1) I never got the impression reading previous material that boon transfers only work when all parties agree—rather the opposite. The scenario I alway imagine is “Hey, sorry Alan, I know Bob hates your guts and all, but I owed him a boon, and you know you owe me a boon, so he had me transfer your boon to him. Sucks to be you, but the good news is, my debt’s discharged!”
2) The coolest thing about Harpies in the Camarilla is that in this tangled skein of who-owes-what-to-whom, the Harpies, because they keep track of this shit, are the bank. They are the ones to go to when you need to know who to trade favors with when you’re Bob and you want to get Alan under your thumb, and they’re the ones who will make a point of destroying Alan’s social credit if he tries to opt out of involuntary boon transfer, because that sort of take-my-ball-and-go-home behavior is a threat to the foundation of the influence the Harpies wield as the bank.
I think there’s certainly a lot of this that becomes the Harpies’ duty to enforce socially. I also like the role of the Harpy because it’s a great place for Kindred hypocrisy to shine. Why are the Harpies making such a big deal about Vampire X not honoring his prestation obligation when they ignored Vampire Y when he did the exact same thing? It’s because the Harpies have their own agenda, of course. Welcome to being a vampire.
I know I’m going to be tinkering a bit with the idea of mutually agreed transferal. One of the things I wanted to ensure was that the power still rested unfairly with the Elders, so if Joe Neonate somehow ended up owed a by Jane Elder, he couldn’t pass it around. Joe’s just a whelp. My initial idea is to have transferal trumped by Status, to keep the balance of power tipped in favor of the already powerful. But, as I mentioned, I’m going to have to spend a little more word count on that.
This could beworked out with the function a Notary Public does in some of our societies. For example someone who wants the boon transfered could to X (the Prince, the harpy or even a nee tittle) designated kindred, with all the persons involved, write the transaction in a document have it signed by all the the parties and a number of witnesses that could give faith that such transaction was made. The signed by the “Notary” who ratifies it all. and keeps the original record to himself for safe keeping This gives the document certanty.
This is as old as Roman Law, were it was done sometimes in a more simpler way.
I’m a Lawyer and a Notary Public, if you want I could cook something up this wekend.
Excellent work and a cozy feeling of good ol’ VtM atmosphere!
I was just wondering how did the Optional System Liar, Liar came to be? Do people actually have fun with rolling dice to see whether they outwitted an elder, instead of RPing the hell out of the occasion? I mean there was half an accessory dedicated on that exactly (Gilded Cage I think?) and it was refined down to a mathematical equation and a dice roll?
Anyway, of course it is optional, but still I wonder how did you come up with the idea 🙂
I don’t see it as a replacement for the actual sneaking around and solving of mysteries. Rather, it’s an abstraction, a way for players to do shady things, but have the Kindred gossip network still operating in the background. It’s covered in the text a bit: A Kindred who’s actively digging up dirt on an oathbreaker doesn’t use this system, and there’s probably a story or session built around exposing the secret. This is just a passive, secondary way of spawning a trouble moment for a player who’s breaking the social contract. It’s kind of like the feeding system — you can get extra drama out of storytelling a vampire’s hunt, or you can push it into the background with a dice-roll abstraction if other elements of the story are more important at any given time.
I still believe Liar Liar, system the Status reduces the sucesess form the roll should be of the oponnet you are trying to screw. The logic behind it is that the more renown your oponnent is, the less other kindred are going to take consideration what the PC says is true.
Subtracting the Status of the PC, does not make any sense to me, cause if that is the intention it should work the other way around, the more renown you are the better people are going to belive that what you say is true. “Mr X is a respected member in this city, he wouldn’t lie about something like that.”
Aside from that minor little difference, What is written its way too good and perfect, thanks Mr. Achilli, I’m going to introduce this to my next game right away.
The reasoning behind subtracting Status for a prominent vampire is that the prominent vampire is going to be in the (vampiric) public eye. The fact that he’s high-Status makes him visible, so when rumors of his breaking the rules arise, the rest of Kindred society looks a little more closely to see if it’s true.
Think of it as political scandal, because that’s really what the subtraction represents.
I see your argument, though — this guy is high Status, so he’s already earned our trust, to a degree. I’ll see if we can hot both sides of that equation in the development.
I’m not sure I’d go that far. Inasmuch as Kindred trust those in a position of power, they’d be just as eager to tear them down for any perceived weakness, particularly if it favours their own goals. Vampire society has a lot of social Darwinism going on.
In the Giovanni section it says “(from the sects that observe prestation transference)” but above that in the blurb about transferring boons you state that the Camarilla is unique in allowing the transference of boons. So not needed?
One last thing, I know for V20 the whole Ravnos feeling of “Mess with one, you have the clan turn up in your city” was expunged, but maybe a note that going back on a boon with a deceiver isn’t worth the “headache” as is the case with trying to bar one from your city.
“Once the roll succeeds a number of times equal to five plus one for each step of the boon’s gravity (–1 for a trivial boon, –2 for a minor boon, etc., to a minimum of 0), the scandal or suspicion has passed and the character is no longer at any risk for discovery in this manner.”
Shouldn’t this read “(+1 for a trivial boon, +2 for a minor boon, etc., to a maximum of +4)”?
Oops. Cut-and-paste error. Fixed!
Hi,
I like write-up a lot in general. Here are my few thoughts:
• don’t make boon transfers that strict, well if boons are “money” of Kindred, so why not let them spend it on whatever they want.. like paying their own debts for example. Only ones that need to know, should know about it. I like the idea that it may work dependant on Status (Joe the Elder calls to Eric the neonatejust to tell him that now he owes to Mike the Sheriff). It is a great way to introduce new NPC and story hooks.
• Harpies may track boons in Domain not because it is their duty, but because they are good at getting that knowledge with their social tricks. It may be nice story arc to make PCs do everything to protect news of their debt from getting to Harpy’s ear.
• I don’t like the “Liar, Liar” option. There is already system for that (lying and sense deception) and it is in the interest of boon recieving party to double check everything. No one will remember this new system on game session. Still it should be noted that players (as well as NPCs) may play that dangerous game and it may result in loss of Status (or worse).
• On one ocasion there is title od Seraph used in text. It should be explained (or will it be in Titles writeup?) to players, bacause there are no Black Hand distinctions in V20.
Remember that Liar, Liar occurs in the background, behind any central story action. If someone actively wants to pursue a character’s shady prestation, it will become a more central part of the story and chronicle.
Also, Seraph is in fact covered in the titles chapter. Good catch, and the supporting material for that is on its way 😉
I’m still working on boon transfers. Some players like the open transfer while others like the pomp and structure of having them moved formally and with the recognition of local officers of the Camarilla. I think part of this can be solved by outlining the options a little more openly in the text.
You’ve defined boons as “one Kindred’s promise to another” would it be more precise to say it’s “one Kindred’s promise to return a favor to another”?
I think maintaining the distinctions between a trivial boon and minor boon might be splitting hairs. The description of a few of the examples for trivial boons I think you could justify as minor boons. For example, offering crash-space to a blood drunk acquiantance might be the difference between rising the next night or getting ashed. I suggest combining the trivial and minor boons into one category. I think Storytellers will have an easier time of making distinctions between a minor and major boon than they would making a distinction between a trivial and minor boon.
I like the systems, and I especially like that you’ve clarified that boons transcend sect affiliation and indepedent clans. The clear endorsement of tangled webs across sect and clan lines is vampire at its best.
I had an afterthought to my initial post. If you keep the trivial boon system, I suggest reducing the XP cost for purchasing a trivial boon. A new ability cost the same as purchasing a trivial boon, it seems like a high price for something trivial.
I love the opening paragraph. Comparing Boons to Credit(-carc) debts is a very nice touch, with the ‘you’re not creditworthy if you have no debts’ statement. I’d like more text on the role Harpies can play in prestation. Maybe some text on how Harpies not only track and sometimes formalise boons, but also on how the +- chart of the Kindred then influeces her position in Elysium. A neonate with an outstanding boon from an elder may well be regarded as an ‘up and commer’, while a primogen owing big to some lesser cainites may well be ‘over the hill’.
THe cheating bit seemed a bit drawn. Basilly, the message here is ‘cheat if you can get away with it.’ You don’t need 4 paragraphs for that. Reducing this leaves more room for the harpies 🙂
THe inter-sect boons section could use some mention on the Nosferatu? They are more or less Nosferatu before Cammy or Sabbat and so have a great position as an intermediary for Cainites/Kindred in need of aid from the other side.
Buying a boon? Meh. Maybe as part of downtime, but other then that… meh.
On swapping boons: it’s been said before, but I don’t see why the owee has a say in it…
All in all, a very enjoyable read! Can’t wait to see the final result.