Hi everyone! Happy Thursday.
I’ve been down periscope a bit. I’m doing some last-minute tweaks to the text before I send it over to layout.
This is something I wanted to share to you a bit, partly because I did it myself and it’s good to get feedback, and partly because it shows off a bit of our design ethos with V20 Dark Ages. This power has some tonal shifts from V20 and Dark Ages, but I think it really helps the Setites to stand out and have some of their own identity, not in the shadow of the Lasombra (see what I did there?) and the Gangrel.
There’s one noted omission, and that’s Heart of Darkness. I felt that was less the purview of a Discipline, more a Thaumaturgy ritual. So, I filled the gap with something scary. I hope you dig.
Yes. Yes I do dig, very much.
This power is finally more than a shoddy composite of cheese and assorted powers from other Disciplines. It also gives the Setites an identity away from “we’re those guys that are like the Baali, but not as cool, and also we’re the masters of darkness even though Lasombra own us on that.”
What I especially like is that the ability to create monsters is no longer exclusive to Vicissitude (which can re-sculpt). Serpentis, literally births monsters like a Godling or a Titan.
“By spending a point of Willpower upon activation, the vampire can stay material at the center of the storm. She becomes immune to the storm’s effects, but can still take physical actions.” <— I was thinking that when reading it I *wanted* my Setite to have Typhonic Avatar (Echidna's hybrid human/serpent form), while riding the storm and birthing Typhonic beasts to rain down on my enemies.
Good stuff.
For Enchanting Gaze, would a ghoul qualify as a supernatural creature for purposes of resisting the power? It would be helpful if either the Discipline text itself defined this, or if “supernatural creature” is defined elsewhere in the main rules.
(I tried to add a comment to the Google Doc, but it’s giving me an error right now.)
The new 5th dot is very cool. I’ve always felt similarly about Heart of Darkness. Useful, but more like a ritual than a utilitarian 5th dot power.
I queston about Form of the Storm: It says “Increase all Perception difficulties by 3”. Does this mean for everyone, for the Setites enemies or just for the Setite? Some clarification would be nice.
I’ll clarify. It should be everyone in the storm, except the Setite, who remains immune to the effects.
Like the Koldunic Sorcery re-work, this is a power with a distinctive and consistent theme running through it – in this case, transformation into a specifically mythological/religious monster inspired by Greco-Egyptian culture. I very much like the way that it helps to give the Setites a distinctive character. What really caught my interest was something a little more subtle, though. What’s the betting that “Typhonic Maw” was called “Ammit’s Maw” before the Ptolemaic pharaohs, I wonder? Or that Echidna usurped, say, Serqet? There are hints that Setite culture is far more mutable that is commonly supposed. It could be that Khay’tall and his Decadents aren’t so much heretics as the latest in a long series of redefinitions of the clan’s character going back to the Hyksos and before. Certainly they seem to have had a hand in shaping the clan’s modern incarnation. We already know about that one doctrinal split in the clan, but could there be others?
I think that Heart of Darkness needs to be in there somewhere, because it’s something inspired by Egyptian culture and a key plot point in the Dark Ages Setite clan novel. But I agree it works better as an Akhu ritual.
“The vampire can reflexively subsume a monster back into her flesh”. Can that be done at a distance? If not, stealing the body of a creature would be a way to inflict permanent injury on the Setite.
I kind of intended the permanent injury thing to be a possibility. I mean, it’s pretty fearsome to be able to create little attack dogs at any time.
Do you think it’s maybe too harsh? I could see after X nights, they burst into serpents and return to the vampire at whatever distance.
Or you could simply allow the damage to be healed as aggravated rather than lethal?
The power is formidable, I agree, and allowing the lost health level to be healed normally would make it grossly overpowered. But as long as the vampire can’t instantly recover the lost health level(s), there’s already an associated cost acting as a check on its use.
My worry is that the *total* irreversibility of the damage would make it unusable in a long-term campaign – especially against foes like the Assamites or Undying, who might have learned enough about the Setites to realize that they could inflict permanent damage on a Follower by stealing a Beast’s corpse. It wouldn’t take very long for a Setite to waste away to nothing from just a few uses of the power, making it fairly useless against any but the weakest foes. It’s like the old Gangrel weakness, in a way, a one-way ticket to character deterioration. I think there needs to be an “escape clause” somewhere, but not one so lenient that it acts as a get-out-of-jail-free card.
I think Serpentis is one of the more overpower and unbalanced disciplines, but what surprises me is that each revision make it more powerful.
The effects of Typhonic Maw are too much. Just compare the discipline with Protean 2 (which still is one of the more powerful level 2 powers in its own right). The visual effects are also quite ugly, not the tone I would want in my vampire game.
The Serpent’s Flesh has been always too powerful, but in DA it took three turns to activate, and in V20 it costs 1 willpower point. Here it is reflexive (how fast can be to change all your skin into scales?) and for only 1 blood point.
The Typhonic avatar is considerably more powerful than the previous version, +2 to every physical attribute seems to powerful, comparing again with the also powerful Protean. But what really strikes me is that you can use it reflexively. Seriously, transforming a humanlike vampire into a giant serpent (which is anatomically the opposite) in just an instant?
The level 5 is not bad, much better than the Heart of Darkness, but maybe too easy. I think it is hard to grow a monster in just a turn. I think that giving the monster the physical disciplines of the vampire can also unbalance depending on the vampire (i. e. spawning each turn a creature with 3 points of Potence). It could be unbalanced also to spawn monsters with Enchanting gaze (which remains me that the Willpower trait is not given, can they paralyze vampires?). Or what about invoking five monsters from the security of the temple, then give them 4 points of Serpentis and then sending five giant cobras (maybe with Potence 3) to your enemies? Limiting the power with the health points is a very good idea, but I would not let the vampire recover the blood (and the health level only if he can absorb the flesh again by contact).
I appreciate the intent of giving a more evocative them to the level 1, but I am not comfortable that it overlays Presence. More being Presence one of the clan disciplines, it discourages the Setite from peaking Presence for the more munchkin discipline of Serpentis. It also is not clear for me in which situations the social actions apply. Must she glaring at the subject? It is simply active during the scene without having to look at the person?
I think Serpentis has always been a mistake in the Vampire games. Setites are meant to be manipulative and subtle, they should have to trick other vampires into what they need. But this discipline make them combat machines, which is what in practice most Setites are. More so, the serpent like powers are really ugly and contrary to the Vampire tone (again, I am not now speaking of just this revision). I always say that the serpent references should have been just metaphoric.
Compare this situation with Animalism, which not only was not too powerful at the beginning, but each revision make the discipline worst. At least the level 5, which is each time less useful and more dangerous. Seeing that this book has the philosophy of experimenting, what about making level 5 Animalism more flexible and powerful (i.e. allowing to draw the Beast from one Vampire to another, and so).
PS: I don’t like being so negative, but I think as a Storyteller and see the exploiting holes.
I’ve got to reluctantly concur. Whilst I love the thematic changes the increase in power level and versatility are somewhat concerning. I know that this isn’t Requiem so balance isn’t the be all and end all but many of these powers seem like they could do with effects being toned down or the costs/activation times increased.
Overall I really like the direction your team is taking with the DA Disciplines and tackling some of the really old complaints that have never previously been addressed (presumably due to inertia and a general unwillingness to retcon to the extent needed). Any chance we can see if similar wonders have been worked on Vicissitude in the not too distant future?
I forgot to say that the overall idea of giving a more mysterious and mythic is very good, I still does not like the aesthetic of vampires turning into reptilian monsters (remember Roswell Conspiracies cartoons?), but this is a good try into doing it more interesting.
Is the balancing issues what I care, but I still want to praise the idea.
Balance issues aside I do agree that Serpentis is perhaps a bit to combat oriented. However since Set is a war diety this isn’t completely unjustified. Not to mention that it is tricky to make Serpentis better for manipulation without encroaching on Presence or Daimoinon power such as Sense the Sin.
One option could be to give Serpentis a few powers to “buff” other characters. These could serve both a religious blessings and as a bargaining tool. Giving the Setites something with which to tempt powerhungry characters.
I like abandoning the whole snake-fetish. It never suited how Set was portrayed in ancient Egypt. I would prefer downtoning the Greek mythology and playing more on Egyptian mythology. For instance I don’t get the passage about Setites basing their power on Typhon. Most of the powers could just as easily be explain with referance to the Sha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_animal). This way Setites could simply write of the parallels to Typhon as Greek misinterpretations.
As I said above, I suspect they probably did, originally, before Alexander conquered Egypt. Personally I’d like to see a subtle schism in the clan between Ptolemaic-influenced elders and “purist” Methuselahs
Does having three heads mean you can drain a vessel at triple the rate, or three vessels at a time?
That’s a good question. I could see it both ways. I mean hell, it’s a high level power. That’s part and parcel for some at that level.
I like the power re-work. Its one of the few I have liked. I will say that Cerberus’s fury. Should probably be re-named as Cerberus was a Greek thing. Heads of Hydra or Hydras’s fury would make a bit more sense. But then I think I’m just being nitpicky haha
I have always been a fan of snake-themed Serpentis, and actually don’t see any problem with it. Revision (and Dark Ages) did an excellent job of tying Set with Apophis and thus explaining the ophidian form, in my opinion. I don’t get where all the endless complaining about it being disconnected from the actual mythology comes from – i think it is actually a clever reimagining of it. For the same reason I liked the Greek approach on Egyptian myth used here. Heck, even the original inspiration of Hyborean Set works great in helping establish mood for a Setite cult! I see a lot of possibilities in Setites, they have always been good NPCs *and* PCs in my games, they are good as antagonists and as protagonists both. And Serpentis have always been part of what made them interesting.
I like this revision of the powers, but will always use the snake as a parameter of their description: the level five creatures for instance will actually be snakes conjured from the Setite’s own body, the level four default form will be ophidian or the mega snake of the old Form of the Cobra (and the typhonic beast a optional form). Actually, this revision is very good in the sense the it is versatile and can accomodate all tastes: those who don’t like snakes and those who do.
Based on what others have said here or on the forum, a few considerations of my own:
Level 1 — I think the -1 difficulty should apply only to social rolls used to entice or seduce. And perhaps not affecting disciplines? (I am okay with it though, Dementation 1 works similarly and that’s fine). I miss the rules for paralyzing victims with the hypnotic gaze, however. Didn’t always work, but was good.
Level 2 — I never saw the necessity of the tongue dealing agg damage, but that’s how it always was. I’d downgrade it to lethal if only to keep the other new features.
Level 3 — The subtle aspect of the power is perhaps too much, even though I like it. The WP cost kinda balances it, perhaps.
Level 4 — As mentioned, in my games I’d always go for the hybrid form as a default. Since the power is already versatile, I could see it allowing other forms, like snakes for arms, one giant snake (like the old power), snakes for hair or several snake heads growing from the neck.
Level 5 — again, will use this to produce snakes, but I really liked its mechanics. I’ve read Heart of Darkness will be included as a ritual, and as long as it does not disappear, i’m okay with it.
The Elder Powers are great!
My main, and mostly only, complaint is about the names being so tied up to Greek instead of Egypt.
Also while I don’t mind Heart of Darkness being a Ritual in itself, it’s removal takes away the elder power that allowed one to rip out your enemies heart in a similar manner and loosing that power is a shame.
Other than those points excellent work.
I thought the revisions to the powers worked really well. I especially like how the Typhonic form and the godhead form have direct uses for the Setite cult in addition to having combat effects. Well done, sir!
I’m keeping Heart of Darkness as a 5th dot disc but I’ll use the other one as an alternative.
Overall, I really like what you’re doing here. Here is my Constructive Criticism:
Enchanting Gaze: -1 difficulty when attempting to charm a target. Seduction, beguiling, all great, but not for the purposes of frightening them. So entrancement yes, dread gaze and Command, no.
Typhonic Maw: you might want to say “no penalties from ‘natural’ darkness” to be clear it doesn’t negate Obtenebration penalties?
Serpent’s Flesh: -2 difficulty to intimidation makes them Dread Gaze and Command machines, might want to consider +2 dice on intimidation actions instead?
Typhonic Avatar: This is pretty sweet. Do not listen to people complaining that it’s too good, it gives less stats than Horrid Form and more than Shape of the Beast. Shape of the Beast lets you ‘blend in’ though, and fly. I think you hit this one on the mark.
Mother of Monsters: Okay, changing Heart of Darkness to a ritual is so correct and necessary that I could hug you. However, the mechanics here are, unfortunately, a little awkward and open to abuse from a Setite with a lot of physical disciplines. Just spitballing here, but what about something more subtly terrifying like “Corrupt the Heart” and through an appropriately themed conversation and a roll, (probably manipulation + subterfuge or empathy vs a difficulty of the target’s path rating) they can pick a virtue and the subject will automatically fail their next roll of the appropriate type. Only on a botched attempted can the Setite’s manipulations be known to the target, otherwise it just feels like a warm blanket of apathy 🙂
Agreed about level 2 tongue damage being downgraded to lethal.
Inspiring terror and awe seems to much for the level 4 power in addition to the war form. Maybe a combo with Presence?
Even for a level 9 power, absolute immunity to physical attacks with no drawbacks (like no hands in V20’s version) seems to be a bit much.
Although I welcome innovation I am not comfortable with the total shift from V20 Serpentis in modern nights. It clashes for players who wish to run their Setites through to modern nights. I can hear the screams of the VTM traditionalists now.
Levels 1, 2 & 3 are OK. I wouldn’t allow additional actions at level 2 though. Giving them a war-form kind of rips off Vicissitude and Obten. The snake theme must be kept as it is Serpentis not Jackaleptis. Sorry. A Nagahesque war form sounds cool but are Setities really a militant clan in the Dark Ages? Aren’t they tempters?
Level 5 again feels like it is a copy of summoning shades but I could live with that. Level 6 Venom makes me think the Assamites will be calling for their Quietus back. It does seem to trump most of Quietus and makes it more useful. Cerberus’s fury confuses Greek and Egyptian myth and I can see a lot of my Classics Student friends complaining. I have read the explanation at the start but since playing since the 90s, No. Just don’t mess it up. Go back to Clanbook Setite. Godhead is wrong. Just wrong. No. Please don’t do it.
All in all the changes have gone from a faux Presence/Protean power into a faux Vicissitude/Protean power. Setites are now more shapeshifty than Gangrel. Please don’t cheapen Protean.
I have to say after reading the new ‘serpentis’ Im honestly confused. Serpentis as it was made its one sort of sense, did it probably need a little changing?
Yes, Heart of Darkness should have been a ritual, but i dont see the new replacement making sense. Tempters, or thats what they were, now they look like the lovechild of Assamites and Tzimisce. I’m really looking forward to the no doubt wonderful explanation as to how the powers change between Dark Ages and Modern Nights.
Though as a Gm I do think my Settite players will have to make do with V20 core Serpentis, because at least that fits.
I am actually concerned that you are going to anger old fans, confuse new recruits to CWOD and win over about 25% of fans. Please don’t do a Requiem to Serpentis. There is only a certain amount of poetic licence that can be taken with Vampire. At the moment my friends are excited about playing Dark Ages again. If the book horrendously disfigures what we used to know and love. We simply won’t invest and won’t buy it. We have the old books. But it was that attitude that made us not play the New World of Darkness. That would be counter to this whole project right?
I like this in part because it gives us a better grip on the non-Egyptian Setites that we’re likely to see in a European game. It could be worth noting Egyptian power names in the flavor text (or heck, giving them Egyptian names and moving the Greek names to the flavor text).
This, even if you change the whole Serpentis into something else it at the very least should use Egyptian themed names for it’s powers not Greek.
You can explain a slightly more terrifying and versatile Serpentis in the Dark Ages, compared to the entirely snake-themed Serpentis of modern quite easily – Set was more ‘himself’ back then. Remember the story that Set consumed Apep, the evil snake? Sure, he diablerized some aspect of the Wyrm. It has slowly corrupted him and his lineage reflects it. Now he lives in Duat and is basically entirely an aspect of destruction and chaos – Apep’s portfolio.
I really like the new changes. I preffer the Setites to be the “Clan of the Faith” not the “Snake Clan”, something annoying because the Gangrel are the “Clan of the Beast”, and snakes are only a kind of beasts…
The new powers allow to keep the old snake-style (“cosmetic” modifications), and even change the Tlacique discipline to Serpentis with jaguar-style.
I miss some high level powers:
***** * Aspect of the God (DAV: Players Guide to the Low Clans): More generic and less snake-like.
***** ** Divine Image (V20): Maybe as an advanced version of Typhonic Avatar that allows to adopt the animal-head gods or something like that
***** **** Pact with Ra (DAV: Players Guide to the Low Clans): I think that one permanent Willpower is to much, probably it could be better other modifications like reducing the dice pool to Path rating and ten to twenty blood cost. Other option is to create an Akhu ritual that emulates this power.
It could be very cool to include alternative names (Egyptian version, Hindi version…) for the Discipline and powers (something like Bau for Egyptians, Typhon for Greeks, etc.).
In conclusion I am very excited with this new look for Serpentis and I cannot wait for having the book in my hands.