I promised that even though the open playtest was over, we’d still be posting previews from Blood and Smoke: The Strix Chronicle. I’d intended to do it sooner, but I stepped up and became Onyx Path’s new Development Producer, so blogging’s been a little delayed.
Recently, the forums started discussing Humanity, and, since redlines on that section were light, I thought it’d be fun to share the new Humanity rules.
The difference between this and previous dev blogs is that we’re now at a much later stage in the process. Having passed the internal playtesting and first formal draft marks, we’re not making big changes.
One thing you’ll notice is that Humanity is now much more about how well you relate to humans, and less about whether you follow their rules. Humanity loss is triggered by events that push you away from the common human experience… that alienate you from others, or drag you into the nightlight world of the Damned.
Comments
33 responses to “Less Human Than Human”
Is it me or do these rules suggest that vampires in Blood and Smoke will be able to go out into the sunlight?
Yes. Within limited capacity, higher Humanity, lower Blood Potency Kindred will be able to operate during the day. It’ll be limiting and painful. Think Dracula or Carmilla as a jumping off point there.
But as the Humanity drops and the Blood Potency increases, the sun becomes more markedly and immediately lethal.
This is good stuff. What I like about it, is that in the core book, Humanity degeneration tends to be triggered by violent action, theft…criminal type acts. That seems where the focus is.
In this system, I see triggers like, two weeks without human contact, reading your own obituary, death of a mortal parent, surviving a century. Heavy stuff and ripe for interesting roleplaying and plots in game.
Two Questions:
01. Will you guys provide systems for developing our own Banes?
02. How about Clan Weaknesses (Clan Banes, right?) being aggravated by Low Humanity?
Clan Banes are tied directly to Humanity level, and in a secondary way that’s kind of unexpected.
Really good stuff here. I particularly enjoy the option to replace breaking points with Banes. It will be a useful compromise for both Vampires of High Humanity, and Low humanity. I can imagine the inhuman Elder who has no problem with pre-meditated killing, but now is constantly surrounded by Vermin… and the Ascetic Ancilla who enjoys meeting his human friends for meals, but now has to be invited into any home before they can enter.
I have got to say that these rules are very inspiring as regards the quality of the upcoming new Requiem material. I’m definitely looking forward to getting both the God Machine and the Strix Chronicles. Plus its good to see Requiem pulling away from the Masquerade model a little bit more…
It also underlines the idea of older vampires Embracing so that the new Kindred can deal with humans better. And a very well connected Ascetic could be very valuable to other vampires – who were willing to play by her rules.
I love the idea of Banes, that the Beast realises the emotional scar is a hindrance to the vampire’s actions and essentially takes it upon itself, for a price, to cover it over.
I find it interesting that ‘learning Cruac’ is a breaking point, but none of the others are. I suppose in some ways, Coils are about trying to beat the Vampiric condition, which is helpful towards keeping humanity, and you could pose that the LS, as a highly religious covenant, have a degree of redemption built into their beliefs, a natural sort of hope that one day this will all go away.
I like that Blood Potency has another downside to it now, with a breaking point for 3 and 6. Unless you’re wanting to socially overpower another, or are aiming specifically for a higher blood pool/expenditure- Blood Potency only restricts your feeding choices. But now it has another downside of raising it to certain levels means you’re potentially going to lose a humanity. I’m interested in your reasoning for not having it as ‘every Blood Potency over 5’, as you get further and further from the realisation that you are inhuman. Or is it just that once you understand it at this level, there’s no real point in going any further?
I love this so much.
You guys… you did it totally right. So much better than the Hierarchy of Sins – it even takes into account some metagame.
Can’t wait. Shut up and take my money.
I didn’t realize I was noticing that. I only noticed how well it’d work, with only a few minor tweaks, as a moral trait for novas if Ian and the rest decide to do nAberrant under the Storytelling system rather than Revised Storyteller. (Partly because it makes similar design choices to the ones I made when homebrewing a nova moral trait using the Atrocity and Bane systems from The Danse Macabre; parallel evolution’s like that.)
I would prefer killing to be a single item on the trigger list, since the GM is already empowered to move it up or down depending on circumstances. Breaking it up seems like a throwback to the old mortality system. Honestly, it seems like losing control to the Beast and accidentally killing someone you are feeding on should be lower on the scale than premeditated murder.
Also, I find the description of Humanity 4 and 3 incongruous to where the various killing breaking points are. If they are so jaded about taking human life, when necessary, why is premeditated murder still a breaking point? Why is premeditated murder still a problem for Humanity 2 monsters who, as described, kill for minor or petty reasons?
Lastly, it just doesn’t fit the setting. Elders are depicted as bloodthirsty, but if so, how do they survive at Humanity 3? Premeditated murder is a 1 die breaking point. Assuming they are short on touchstones by their age and probably have a bane or two, a couple of murders is going to leave them as draugr. It just seems like a case where the rules, as written, don’t support the setting as described.
I think that this is what the Banes system mitigates. Once a Kindred accepts a supernatural Bane caused by a Breaking Point, they don’t have to make further checks for that sin. An Elder who survives while still being callously destructive of other lives? Probably takes the Bane for Premeditated Killing a long time before they actually reached Humanity 2. Same for Impassioned Killing. Also, a Kindred can try to increase their Humanity through exposure to humans in a not-so-murderous capacity. Personally, I think this system fits perfectly for a world of the Requiem.
Where is the Exalted 3rd edition information? We have been foaming at the mouth for 4 months now give us a fix.
I don’t have any Exalted 3e information. I’m the Vampire developer.
This is not the Monday Meeting entry. That has been delayed to sometime today I think.
Looks like killing in self-defense isn’t mentioned, as opposed to the preliminary rules.
Just getting a regular success or even four still gives the player a detrimental condition. Wasn’t one of the points of the nWoD that a success was a complete success?
What level of Breaking Point would the death of a sibling be?
Can Banes be removed after being accepted?
Looks like a very interesting system, I am greatly looking forward to trying out the GMC and B&S rules when the books are released 🙂
Finally, there is a reason to spend eternity clubbing and why Elysium is usually a night club… 🙂
These rules are really, really, REALLY punishing. At humanity 8, social disciplines are all bad. At humanity 9, physical disciplines are all bad. Simply getting messed up by enemies can and will take you down to humanity 5.
It used to be that vampires have to be complete pacifists only at humanity 8+. Now, “impassioned violence” implies that you will hit humanity friggin’ 3 unless you are a pacifist.
I realize that vampires are supposed to be gentle, law abiding pacifists who never hurt anybody and that the rules should reflect that you are being punished if you step outside of that box, but non-pacifists eventually dwindling to 3 is damn crazy.
Its also highly misleading, that humanity is equated with morality here — a vampire can never harm another person and still hit humanity 5, but describes them as “selfish.” I thought the new rules were trying to get away from the idea that humanity = morality?
Also, how often do these trigger? Presumably, killing should be every time, but “seeing a culture that didn’t exist when you were alive,” is that per scene, or per culture? Like, if an elder visits 4chan, how often should he take humanity hits and gain free XP?
Overall, I’d say these are overall better, but also incredibly punitive.
Nice strawman you got there, as well as PIDOMA.
This system measures alienation, not good/evil. The lower on the scale you are, the better a vampire you are since you are increasingly less BSing about being a human rather than one of the living dead and a predator of humans.
One can be a very heroic low Humanity vampire, it’s just that heroism is going to be focused on protecting other Kindred or supernaturals, unless the vampire is a believer in animal rights. Humans are just a prey animal to him
“This system measures alienation, not good/evil. ”
Nah, at humanity 3, you apparently turn evil: “He’ll step over anyone and anything in the name of survival, and humans are little more than tools. ”
What really sucks about this is, formerly, you could perform violence without humanity loss, so long as its 7 or below.
“One can be a very heroic low Humanity vampire, it’s just that heroism is going to be focused on protecting other Kindred or supernaturals, unless the vampire is a believer in animal rights.”
“Stepping over anyone and everything in the name of survival” doesn’t sound very heroic towards anyone, and I don’t see how its rational that nonlethal force, to defend humans against supernaturals will inevitably make you cease to give a crap about humans.
There’s also the issue of that what causes humanity loss isn’t even consistent. You’d think that watching humans eat and hanging out in the sun would help you, not hurt you, here.
High humanity used to already be crazy restrictive; now your character is so straitjacketed that it looks like the game developers want a One True Way To Play. At least the life of a high humanity vampire will be a never ending jackpot of Beats, although high humanity vampires will also, in all likelihood, spend their entire existences permanently in the Wanton, Bestial, or Competitive states, or possibly all of the above (unless they overwrite each other).
These will make for a very strange, schizophrenic, deeply meta, roleplaying experience.
Strawman, strawman, strawman. All of it bullshit, and based on a very, very flawed understanding that does not, oh I don’t know, READ THE DEV COMMENTS ON THE OFFICIAL BOARDS?
That’s how you act towards humans as you come to increasingly see them as prey animals. It’s not really different from how the living see barn animals. And there is nothing that prevents a selfish git from being a heroic selfish git. It’s just that, well, they’re selfish gits. Welcome to the nWoD, hope you’ve got it through your skull that this is infinitely more cynical than the real world. Here, it’s not only possible to do the right thing for the wrong reasons, it’s expected.
Besides, the devs have mentioned they are still working on this and plan to include an “ST Revision” sidebar.
“Nah, at humanity 3, you apparently turn evil: “
Not so. You are applying categories of morality where they do not apply. Caring only about survival and viewing humans as tools is not inherently evil. Evil is just an arbitrary category assigned to actions that one does not condone. But there is no evil in survival and using tools.
“But there is no evil in survival and using tools.”
Alright, so now I’m curious, how would you portray a vampire who is “good” (or if you dislike good/evil, “admirable, heroic, loving, and compassionate”) towards humans who would step on them for survival and who views them as tools?
Also, are these rules intended to be enforced in full, as written, at all times, or in accordance with dramatic necessity?
If a vampire is loving and compassionate towards some people, s/he probably is cruel and unkind to others. A vampire can never be admirable, heroic, loving and compassionate towards everyone. Or at least the ones that are, are so rare as to be utterly remarkable. A vampire would be loving and compassionate maybe to groom a human for the embrace (i.e. survival by propagating ones one species) or towards his blood dolls (if the tools feel loved, they offer up blood more readily). But behind it all lies a heineous and twisted love that is not recognizably human.
In answer to some of the questions (because apparently there’s a limit to how far nested comments can get), breaking points are meant to be modified for individual game situations.
From the doc:
“The listed breaking points are examples. Add breaking points at Storyteller discretion, or shift these up or down to fit the situation. Typically, the more personal the event is, the lower level a breaking point it should be. If something is significantly distanced from the character, or she had no way to prevent it, it should be a Humanity level higher. “
In other words (regarding the “all vampires have to be pacifists” comment):
If an investigating reporter threatens your Masquerade and you decide to deal with it by using your awesome vampire powers to rip him apart limb from limb, that’s a breaking point, because it emphasizes your inhumanity. If a random thug gives you shit and you punch him in the face, that’s not really a breaking point.
Also, while being in the sun, the constant discomfort reminds you that you are damned, and watching humans eat only makes you more aware that you’re a blood-drinking parasite. Hence why normal human behavior ends up being a breaking point.
Am I reading this right?
Yes, that’s about right.
How about an example from the tv show Supernatural? There’s a recurring character named Benny, a vampire who’s regained appreciation for humans and doesn’t drink from them. He’s probably around Humanity 7. Recently, his mortal grand-daughter was kidnapped by an insane hunter. Benny killed him to stop him from killing her. What Break, if any, would he have?
I just realized this post was here and… Oh my god! Banes let you select certain breaking points you can ignore! This means… this means a vampire serial killer (like the Honeymoon Hijackers in Immortal Sinners or, say, the entirety of the Moroi bloodline) can actually MAKE SENSE, instead of flagrantly ignoring the rules because serial murder is a Humanity 2 sin, which means you should quickly descend to Humanity 1, at which point you’re supposed to “barely function as a sentient being”. You’d think that would make it a bit difficult to stage elaborate mockeries of the institution of marriage or harbor a deep loyalty to the Ordo Dracul.
I mean, it’s not like you couldn’t just ignore that stuff and do that vampire serial killer before, I just find it annoying if the mechanics and what’s actually described don’t fit. Pick one: either acts of brutality are always dangerous for the vampiric soul and present a risk of degeneration into a Draugr (which heightens personal horror as you weigh expediency against your very sanity) or there are ways around it (which makes possible a wider range of characters). Seems like they picked the second option.
Say, how would murder by proxy (ie, hiring a hitman to take care of a problem person) fit on this chart? I can imagine a lot of scheming elders protecting their Humanity by getting other people to do their dirty work, especially if there’s any kind of plausible deniability to the action, such as saying, “I never want to see that pest again” rather than “Kill that pest.”
Also, does the killing only apply to humans? Are vampires free to harm and murder one-another without it being a breaking point?
If the breaking points no longer apply below a certain level, then vampires are going to degenerate *more* slowly then regular humans.