Okay, let’s take a look at the Titles chapter.
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ynXkJxdtTv1LrQrciPwbIdIm8oYbQPItLhjE2q7EeUg
What we have here… is a failure to communi— no, wait, I did it wrong.
What we have here is a quick look at why the Kindred have titles, then a system for how to create them, and then a healthy listing of example titles, ready to be dropped into any chronicle that needs them. Some of these will be pretty familiar while others are new, conceptually, or simply haven’t been described in these terms before.
One of the things that really needs testing is the systems subsection for each title. Previously, titles have been purely setting constructs, with whatever systems attached to them that Storytellers wanted to apply in terms of their own chronicles. Here, however, we’ve attached some game systems. I know already that some of you aren’t going to like these — that’s okay; you don’t have to use them. You can tinker with the mechanics, or you can keep titles as setting elements in your chronicles. But for those of you who do want to try the new systems, I need your help playtesting them. I know I’ve made a handful of errors in assigning the relative power levels of the systems in terms of the rankings, so they need balance. As well, some of them may change entirely if playtest bears out a conceptual or systemic better fit.
I’ve also left a bit of room to flesh out word count. Of what I haven’t covered, or what you’d like to see greater attention for, weigh in!
I deliberately kept the flavor of the chapter pretty florid, because I think that worked well for V20, and especially in the first and second editions. One of the things that I’d really like to hit more but wholly belabor is the Kindred reliance on blood. What’s the sweet spot? At what point do you say, “Enough! I get it! Vampires need blood!” without saying, “What is this, Underworld? Why do these vampires never have to drink blood?” Help me out. Let’s find the flavor.
Looks good from an initial browsing, but I have one suggestion. Would it be possible to group all the titles by sect first, then by positive and negative categories inside that? Then follow it with the new titles, and I feel it would flow a little more logically. It was a little jarring to be reading about the Inner Circle and then seeing Archbishop.
Oh, and in the Inner Circle section I think “and declare another vampire’s life to exist negated.” should read “and declare another vampire’s right to exist negated.”
Other than that, I’m looking forward to the companion.
Yes, we’ll break up the material as necessary. It sounds like you’re wanting subsection headers by sect to better arrange the concepts. Note that the sect is included in the parenthesis, and will be more visible once the layout codes are translated into actual headers.
Oh, and I just fixed the typo. Thanks!
Do you guys planning on clarifying the difference between the Tal’Mahe’Ra (The True Black Hand) and Caine’s Chosen (The Sabbat Black Hand)? As they have similar titles but the two are nothing alike.
I don’t know that we’ll be delving too deeply into the distinction until we have more room to look at the sect itself in more detail. Remember that part of the reason for the wheels-within-wheels feel of the Dirty Secrets sourcebook was the fact that the Tal’Mahe’Ra seemed to overlap a bit with the subsect of the Sabbat. Does it cause confusion? Definitely, and in the context of the setting, it’s supposed to.
Some titles don’t seem to fit into the table you have for making their efffects. For ones like Prince, that’s fine. For ones like Mystic, it’s rather confusing and not a good comparison for what baseline effect a title should have.
Adding/removing dice from a pool is typically how bonuses/penalties are applied in Requiem. Difficulty adjustments are the standard for Masquerade. Outside of altering your effective status, should you end up rolling it, titles shouldn’t be adding dice to a pool. Pack Priest and Whip are the main standouts, though the rules suggest custom titles could do so as well.
Mechanically, Mystic acts similar to Presence 5[Majesty], but for far less XP cost if you allow buying titles. Mystic also seems like a difficult title to appoint, buy, or remove, at least as I envision it. They’re the one that lives off in the swamp’s run-down manor, doesn’t show up to court, but no one wants to bring them in. They’re likely a closet autarch, if not a highly apathetic sect member. They still trade in boons, but are reclusive to the point that you need to be willing to expose yourself entirely to figure out what the price will be. Mystic isn’t just the local Tremere in charge of tracking down spooky things [that would be a different custom title]. The prince doesn’t just say ‘That guy out in the swamp is our mystic now. Someone inform him of his promotion’, everyone hears about it different ways from a friend of a friend or 3 and the rumor mill, or the Harpies, have to admit that they probably know what they’re doing with things most wouldn’t want to deal with.
Yes, this is good feedback, and what I’m wanting to see borne out in playtest. The table is imprecise, give the granularity of the Storyteller system, and I know several of the titles are going to need tweaked in terms of their point value. As well, the guiding chart itself may need some refinement, to provide better and narrower applications of the guidelines.
I’ve added your commentary to my notes and will go back over it during the systems revision. Thanks!
Actually, I don’t think I understood how the table works at all… Is it just me? Can the explanation get clearer?
Also, is it possible to have examples of Titles for the Independent Clans (which are described as sect-like in V20?) For instance, Setite Lector-Priest, Giovanni Wraith Slaver, etc.
And does Titles for Clans defy the purpose of the Title system? They *have* to be sect only?
I feel like one thing lacking in V20 is mention to Clan Prestige, and Clan Titles would help with this measurement of ‘Clan Status’, like Tzimisce Voivode or Koldun, Lasombra Friend of the Night or Abyss Mystic, Tremere Regent, Brujah Rant-leader, etc.
Also, a title for Advanced Path followers/teachers/paragons would be interesting.
And regarding the Tal’Mahe’Ra, the descriptions are ok, but mentioning that there are about a dozen Seraphim would help understand the scope of the sect. There’s also a Tal’Mahe’Ra title I seem to remember which is missing, and that could be a cool thing to include. Quadi I think. I’ll look it up.
All in all, I really liked the idea behind the Titles system!
Each point in a title gives you 2 ‘steps’ up from the ‘Free’ row for an effect. A 2 point title would give you 4 steps total to distribute as you wanted. A 2pt title could drop the difficulty of a specific roll by 1 once a night [up 3 steps on frequency, up one on the difficulty column], and the title’s role determines which check this would affect. A title to something artistic might be -1 to Expression or Perform difficulties when acting in their capacity, whereas something more forceful might take the change to Intimidation instead.
Is this example of any help?
Missing word in system for Alastor: “…declarations of Princes or the, but…”
Fixed!
“Scourge (Camarilla; 1-point Title)
The Scourge’s unpleasant responsibilities are described on pp. XX-XX of V20.
System: The Scourge’s Status is considered one dot higher for the purposes of social interaction with Elders, who appreciate the Scourge’s efforts to stave off the Time of Thin Blood.”
Nothing about the fear they cause on the general public? People regularly rightfully fear their license to kill.
Paladins should get a mention as they’re technically a good deal above Templars.
Are the titles meant to be scrambled as they are in the final cut? Getting a by sect from most important to lowest would be good, just nitpickin’ at this point because otherwise I think the write-up is fuckin’ A.
Yep, this is a first draft, and I’ve had some other feedback about better organizing the titles. Consider it underway. I’ll look into adding the other titles as well.
I’m curious why cardinal is only a 3 point title?
and Priscus has this text below it “The duties and privileges of the Bishop are described on pp. XX-XX of V20.” Which is just copied from the Bishop entry above.
Corrected the reference and updated the Cardinal to a 5-point title.
Just after a very brief read through the documents am wondering if there will also be titles for the independent clans?
The “Moonlight” TV series had a character called “The Cleaner”, who provided a no-questions-asked service to clean up Masquerade breaches. In an age of DNA forensics and cellphone cameras, some Princes or Archbishops might see the value of appointing a dedicated specialist to that role, rather than leaving the Sheriff or Scourge to do the job as a sideline.
As for “sparklers”, puh-leeze. To quote one of my players when I described what an NPC used to wear during the Age of Aquarius, “I know it’s a horror game, but there’s such a thing as going too far”
I love Sparkler! Well, I might not love the name of that title, but the idea behind it is wonderful. Kim Newman’s novel Anno Dracula (the only one of the series that I could actually finish reading, by the way) described a couple of vampires on the streets of Victorian London as ‘murgatroyds,’ and they had about the same status as a pair of Sparklers. In the novel, the pair was obviously supposed to be Louis and Lestat, though they were not named as such… Silly ‘Lugosis’ or ‘Eddies’ or whatever you wanna call ’em are likely to pop up from time to time.
While I love the idea of Sparklers as a concept for VtM, it’s been done in so many forms (another recent example = the group of vampire wannabes in Buffy) that I feel the Twilight-isms are unnecessary and detract from the text. We’ve already had the “body glitter” reference in V20 itself; do we really need to name this entire archetype after Twilight vampires and refer to vampire baseball in its description? Twilight might be the most recent example but it certainly doesn’t define the archetype and I just can’t see a bunch of Primogen sitting around discussing the problem with “those damn Sparklers”.
Perhaps “Sparklers” could be one of many “alternate names” for this archetype (it sounds pretty Anarch to me), but in my opinion the main idea could benefit from being made more neutral.
I agree, in a few years’ time the joke will probably be dated and obscure. The “romantic media vampire wannabe” archetype could be broadened out. “Cliché” perhaps?
Also, I thought Dux Bellorum was a Camarilla title? With that on the Sabbat side and Warlords for the anarchs, it feels like the Camarilla could do with a martial title as well.
It’s a polarizing title, certainly, as it treads too closely to the twee for some people. As well, it’ll certainly be a dated reference, should the long-term be a real concern here.
It’ll probably drop, to be honest, since it’s already functionally present in the V20 core book (with the Social Flaw Stereotype). I just wanted to take the cheap shot and see the reaction.
This is a 20th Anniversary edition, and interest in the genre has increased in those two decades. Long-term is a valid concern. Although you could always fix it in the 40th Anniversary edition.
The Social Flaw covers poseurs. It doesn’t deal with vampires who get the joke but cynically use it to build Herds for themselves with reckless disregard for the Masquerade. Vampire stereotypes have been a part of popular culture since Stoker published Dracula, and probably aped by the Kindred for just as long. But neither Christopher Lee, nor the Lost Boys, nor even Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise, inspired hordes of teenage girls screaming for a real vampire to bite them. (And some teenage boys, not to mention middle-aged women who ought to know better). The combination of easy feeding opportunities and adulation would be hard to resist for neonates with more pop-culture savvy than intelligence. (Especially if they had trouble getting dates before they became vampires – like, ironically, Robert Pattison). Princes and Justicars will be getting ulcers. There’s probably a negative title for the Edward Cullen lookalikes. “Teenybiters”, maybe?
Cleaner seems like a good idea, but I wonder if it’s a universally recognized title. It seems to me that a lot of stories are made up of “Cleaner”-type activity, and to make it a quantified title removes some of the unique sense of circumstances in a story. Everybody can be a Cleaner when the shit hits the fan.
Still, there’s something to being well known as a Kindred who can un-fuck-up someone else’s problems.
I agree, many stories are about protecting the Masquerade, but having a specific Kindred office dedicated to that role needn’t take the focus away from the players, any more than the position of Sheriff or Harpy takes the focus from them when the story is about social politicking or internecine Kindred conflict.
I doubt it’s universally or even widely recognized. I think it’d be an emerging trend in those domains where the leaders are most alert to recent developments in technology and society. When vampire first came out, you couldn’t upload camera footage straight from your iPhone to YouTube and see it go viral within 48 hours. Now you can. It’s increasingly difficult to hide evidence from modern forensics. A private journal stored in the cloud on the web can’t be stolen from a safe and burned the way a written diary can be. Protecting the Masquerade isn’t just about hiding the bodies any more. Sometimes it calls for a dedicated specialist, or specialists, not just Joe Everykindred. Some of the more “progressive” Princes and Archbishops might have started to realize that. The 20th Anniversary Edition was partly about exploring how the 1990s setting has been changed by the modern world, and I think a dedicated “cleaner” fits right in with that.
It’s also a good story hook for a neonate coterie that works for the elder who holds the title “Cleaner” or its equivalent. (In my online Requiem game, the title was officially “The Guardian of the Masquerade”, although most Kindred – including the holder of the office – called it “The Pooper Scooper”). The skills needed – computers, forensics, PR – are exactly those in which elders are most likely to be deficient, leaving a niche for the newbies to fill. And the range of problems and solutions is potentially diverse enough to give many different character types, from brawlers to spies to geeks to schmoozers, something to do. It’s also at a power level that’s well-suited to neonate-level play
And presents interesting story opportunities in terms of moral dilemmas and degeneration. My history teacher once told me about a bomber pilot who used to visit her parents’ house during WWII. He was tremendously proud to be “doing his bit” for the war effort. After the war ended, it hit him that he’d killed hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent civilians. He had a nervous breakdown. Being in the “cleaner coterie” offers camaraderie, status, and interesting challenges… until you see the weeping family on TV, wondering if their daughter will ever come home.
Well, everybody can do amateur cleaning, but whenever there’s a gargantuan fuckup to fix, that’s when a Cleaner – with capital C – ought to show up. Since we’re going along with pop culture, however, I’d rather call it Wolf, as a nod to the character from Pulp Fiction.
One thing that has been mentioned that I wanted to reiterate is that there ought to be some room for titles of Independent Clans in here. I don’t, however, think that each clan should get a separate title. That would become a little unwieldy. Rather, maybe adding something under ‘Mystic’ that would say ‘Assamamites, Tzimisce, Followers of Set have their own versions that they call Wadi, Koldun and Lector Priest, respectively,’ would be good.
(But, you know, make it sound… not stupid?)
It could just come down to a little side-bar of ‘What others call these titles’ in the book itself. A discussion or list by clan or group of more common titles would give us more of an idea how to use these things in ways that are not stated outright. You don’t even need to spell it all out for us. Just give us hints that the Giovanni have Eschatologists and Mystics, but so do the Setites.
Agreed, this deserves some space. I’ll allocate some word count for it.
Yeah, the Mystic system is weird. Maybe, instead, some kind of bonus to contested Subterfuge, Politics, or Intimidation rolls when drawing on the character’s reputation as an adept at some scary tricks? An advantage in atmosphere and deceit feels less blunt than ‘Erich the Tremere’s rumored capacity to melt your face with a thought and a gesture makes you quaver in terror. Spend a willpower to work up the nerve to get uppity with him.’
The Keeper of Elysium’s system seems like there’s a typo. It states that the Keeper receives the difficulty break “when attempting violence in Elysium settings.”
Should that be when attempting to discourage or defuse violence in Elysium settings, or something?
If the Del’Roh’s capacity to ignore blood expenditure in the Underworld comes from participating in some eldritch ritual from a past era that involves a dead civilization’s funeral markings tattooed with inks made of a mixture of Thaumaturgically sensitive reagents and elder vitae, I’m okay with it. Transubstantiation of Underworld stuff to fuel eternal arch-villainy is cool.
It was mentioned in comments above me, but I also like the idea of a dedicated Masquerade-cleaner position, as the ‘investigate and mind-wipe guy’ isn’t usually the central enforcer. I wind up using this concept rather often when fleshing out the NPC make-up of a Court. Authors, cleaners, repairmen, and other names are handy for that kind of title.
I think that Del’Roh should be a 7-point title, instead of 5-point. Really, being one of the leaders and policy makers of the most powerful secret society in the Cainite, and arguably mortal, world is only equivilant to a Justicar or Archbishop? I think it’d be more along the lines of Inner-Circle member/Regent myself.
(Also along these lines, I love it if we could get more information on the Tal’mahe’Ra down the line.)
I’d like to address Monitor. Why have it as a title? If it’s the only title in the Inconnu why should it even be represented as a title; if having it as a title, why 4 points? I mean, we have next to no information on the “inner-workings” of the Inconnu, so structure, almost nothing at all about them, but they have this 4-point title that means something to them, but nobody else will acknowledge. Don’t get me wrong, I like that it’s in there for completeness, however, I don’t see why it would be such a high point. From what we do know about them, the fact that they’re a Monitor doesn’t seem to mean much, if anything, in whatever sort of structure they do have, other than meaning that they sit and watch one city; it doesn’t seem to imply any sort of power, prestige, authority, or really much of anything other than, “I sit and watch what happens in New York, that’s all I do.”; and that doesn’t seem to jive with a 4-point title.
Del’Roh is a powerful position, but its comparative scale is much smaller than that of the two dominant sects.
The Monitor (and any treatment of the Inconnu, really) is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it’s perfect supplementary material for those who want to know more of Vampire’s secrets, and what it implies is more important than what it actually says. On the other hand, I’m very leery of saying “Every Monitor does this,” or defining any title so absolutely, really, especially for the hidden and mysterious Inconnu. It’s a zero-sum situation: Giving players more setting material comes at the expense of the secrecy of the setting, and which one is more important? Gotta find that sweet spot.
That makes sense. Like the Tal’mahe’Ra, it would be nice if we could get some more information on the Inconnu at a later date. Not only because it’d be nice to have that information to flesh-out the world and overall society of Cainites, it would also make things like their titles to have a bit more meaning.
Some comments from the WW Forums, in case anybody doesn’t go there- and really who wouldn’t? http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=53914
If this has been discussed I apologize.
What about the Tremere hierarchy? I’m not sure about everyone else but I would be rather fond of having a written title form for all 5 (or more?) Tremere titles. Apprentice, Regents, Lord, Pontifex, and Councilor.
More specifically to represent a potential PC’s move up the “ladder” so to speak. To my knowledge Tremere are the only ones with such structures. Though the other clans may have something similar.
I didn’t find out about this open development till now so I’m just throwing in my 2 cents in.
I didn’t touch any of the clan hierarchies here, just sects. Independents may get some specific attention, but this really wasn’t the place to delve into each of the clan hierarchies. I might be able to re-budget word count, but clan titles are fairly low priority, I think, for this book in particular.
A Consul was the title given to each of the two ancient rulers of the Roman republic. The Romans feared autocracy, so two rulers with equal power were elected. One famous example was Julius Caesar; he became a Consul and then sidelined his opposing consul with political and military tricks.
This historical definition has pretty much nothing to do with the inter-sect diplomat described in this document. Why not just call him a Diplomat, Envoy, Emissary, or if you want to get fancy, a Legate?
I kept it Consul because Consul was the suggested title from another response thread in the blogs. It can certainly be changed, especially as it seems like it’s observed more in the breach than in every domain.
I also don’t think historical veracity is too critical to the title. It shows how Kindred society and custom has changed over time, as well as the conceptual drift of popular culture. Who knows; the title may have only come about 100 years ago and it was given a Classical title to add a sense of gravity. The feel is more important than the fact in most setting material, I think.
And regarding the Tal’Mahe’Ra: I thought it through and there’s a bit of inconsistency abouth it. Actually, with most Titles that are held by a single person globally… is it really worth it to measure such an achievement? I mean, if a player actually reaches a Del’Roh or Sabbat Regent position, the implications of such a title might better be at the Storyteller’s hand. I don’t know… what do you people think?
And regarding the Tal’Mahe’Ra: personally, I was a fan of some themes introduced by Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, and I also liked the revised version of the sect on the Storytellers Handbook. So, any mention of the sect makes me happy. But is it really worth it to touch on it only tangentially? I mean, if its Titles are described and made available for players to buy, but its structures are only hinted… what does it really mean? I’m in doubt about it, even if I wish it wouldn’t just disappear.
I’d spend some serious time talking to MET folks about Status Traits and ho they work in the “dirt” of real play. You may have already done it. (In our old multi-game network we found that a 1-10 scale for most PCs, where 10 is a very secure Prince, was big enough to allow fun fluctuations. MET Harpies are awesome, too.) They’re in many ways the predecessor of this system. Tabletop doesn’t have the same horse-trading because the Storyteller is the “bank,” and it’s just annoying to have him track another NPC resource.
I do like the table — but I like Mage: The Ascension, so I’m a sucker for generalized scales. I’m torn between the usefulness of defined channels of privilege and just leaving the title as a generalized domain of influence.
Also, I’m not fond of spending Willpower this way within V:TM’s structure — Willpower is less of an abstract quantity in that game than in Storytelling/NWoD. Spending it strongly suggests an in-game attitude, not just bean counting on the player’s end. I don’t want to get the idea that the Prince is grunting a little every time he really exercises his authority.
Hello,
I just wanna express that I really, feel deeply disappointment that contradicting to what has been stated in the comments that there was no word count spent of granting the independent clans some depth regarding titles.
That neither there was a titles mechanic granted, but instead a rough draft provided along with a table that is, with all due and respect, very poorly done. It’s not even close to beeing decently layouted. Blank spaces between words, unfitting lines,.. really ?
Along with a “We put the stuff in another book”? Are you serious?
Does that mean that I can expect to find titles for the Giovanni in Anarchs Unbound?
And exactly why wasn’t it possible to provided needed information about the independent clans while fleshing out some rather very rare stuff like the Inconnu or Tal’Mahe’ra? (One organisation I barely heard of / used in game and another one that wasn’t even mention in the 2nd rev core book)
I do feel disappointed and right away slapped in the face.
I’d rather have Lin Dans WC-final T-shirt!!!