Wow, yesterday really was a blur. Mostly because the last three days before that were devoted to getting the Deluxe Werewolf the Apocalypse Twentieth Anniversary Edition shipping spreadsheets ready for the three shippers we hope can provide excellent service for all of our backers in the US and around the world. Without costing us twice what we were originally quoted over a year ago when I specced out the Deluxe W20 Kickstarter. Which would really wreck the whole “Stretch Goals get paid for out of the extra money” idea, and could make the whole KS campaign unprofitable. Which it really has to be if we want to keep on making all these great games and books.
So yes, shipping is that big of a danger to our well-being if it’s not really anticipated and then controlled. Which means I was staring at a lot of spreadsheets- I get one for each KS Reward Tier- and over 270 address changes that needed to be input manually. Those changes took Friday through to dinner Saturday (I was stopping for meals) but I just kept rolling through the weekend after that to then bring all the various corrected sheets into formats the shippers could easily read. This is definitely not the fun part of Onyx Path (nor is it anything I ever had training in, just what I’ve learned over the years), but it has to get done. Also during that time, I was making tweaks to the Demon: The Descent Prestige Edition Kickstarter page, which should be over at KS for approval by the time you read this.
And then, after posting this blog, I’ll be downloading all the Deluxe Hunters Hunted 2 spreadsheets from that KS, and inputting those address changes, and compiling those shipping sheets. Not really thrilled that these two ship-outs are timing out to land on top of each other, but I am talking to our shippers about whether they could send those backers who backed both projects their rewards together.
These two KS ship-outs, as well as the Demon KS, are part of the breaking log-jam I mentioned last week, and you’ll note a few of the projects below are also moving apace, but the biggie for us is the move of the White Wolf Forums to our forums here at Onyx Path Publishing. We think this is a great thing for everybody- the community gets a site that has new features and a team dedicated to evolving the forums even further, the fantastically dedicated and tireless WW Forum Mods who have come over to moderate our forums and who now have up to date moderation tools, Onyx Path gets even more of a connection with the WW community, and CCP can be sure that the WW forum community is going to be well taken care of without them having to pull manpower away from EVE or the WoD MMO.
But, I’ll admit that I do have a bit of mixed feelings, too. The WW Forums were such a part of WW‘s development as a company and the first real exposure most of us old-timers had to the nascent power of the internet. I hired guys based on their comments and analyses on the forums (and almost didn’t hire Holden for Exalted because he had been such a brat in his posts). We learned how nothing posted ever really goes away, and how different personae appeal to different folks, like Justin’s acerbic “tough guy” or Ethan’s reasonable but firm “good guy”. And now our journey as a community continues down the Onyx Path. I think, and hope, that this signals the start of even more dynamic discussions, revealing write-ups, and awesome attempts at anger management. 🙂
It was, in fact, nostalgia that Eddy and I talked about on Monday besides the business stuff of approvals from CCP. As V20 Developer, he has noticed that for a lot of fans their fondness (or fiery, white-hot, hatred) for a given product, or chapter, or piece of art, or paragraph, or rules snippet, is more about what is remembered and not necessary what’s actually there. Which we all do, really. As an avid nostalgia TV watcher, I can tell you that most of X-Files is not as good as I remember (although there are absolutely stunning episodes), and that Gilligan’s Island is nowhere near as stupid as my teenage self considered it (maybe because Gilligan looks like a genius compared to the average reality TV cast member). But Ultraman is still cool.
So when we work on a book steeped in the lore of over twenty years of reading and playing, it isn’t always the best direction to look at those earlier books so much as to get a feel for what players and fans remember of that project. Our Open Dev Process has been great for letting us hear how and what the community feels about any given aspect of a project. At the same time, just pandering to that nostalgia- whether accurate or not- doesn’t let us grow creatively either, and can result in us staying away from potentially cool projects that grow the setting and are valuable to the whole fan-base.
Case in point: I just got Eddy’s pitch for Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra, a Sect book for the Black Hand. For years we heard how Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand was our shark-jumping book, and how it skewed EVERYTHING away from the real WoD. But then, maybe just to be contrary, Justin reread it and actually… liked parts of it. Enough to pitch it to me a year or two ago, and Eddy has picked up that ball and has re-pitched it for 2015. So I think we have to appreciate and enjoy the nostalgia folks have for our past, but not let it freeze us into creative immobility.
Projects- Some Not Immobile:
– Blood and Smoke: The Strix Chronicle (VtR) One more piece of art coming in, cover art finalizing, in Layout. Here’s a visual teaser though: https://theonyxpath.com/mirthful-mikes-old-time-art-blog-blood-smoke/
– Mummy the Curse – Leaving these notes up for one more week, in case backers missed the last Update on what to do: Deluxe and Screen: Books and Screens are all shipped out- if you backed and did not get yours yet, please contact me via that little button next to my picture on the KS site. The MtC Ready Made Characters Pack PDF has been sent out to backers- we’re gathering comments on the PDF- like all Onyx Path backer rewards from Stretch Goals, this will later be available in PDF and PoD formats on DTRPG. Cursed Necropolis DC is being finished up by the writers.
– Exalted 3rd Edition: While John hunkers down to rewrite the Charms chapter he is also changing some of the ways he’s been doing these to enable more to get finished, the rest of the team is working on a couple of EX3 chapters that continue to be finalized for Editing: Thrown is getting wrapped up. Big effort on Chapter One: The Exalted and almost done. Last bits of Chapter 4: Traits, so that goes to Editing. Both EX3 novels as well as Zub’s EX3 Comic are in progress, Zub’s script is done and cover elements are up for review, and the EX3 Music Suites are being scoped out. Just FYI, John had to return to the doctor today for more tests as his neck is still hurting.
– V20 Hunters Hunted 2: Deluxe is done being printed, and I’m assembling shipping files as above. HH2 Fiction Anthology text is in editing.
– V20 Anarchs Unbound is in layout and we are still putting the pieces together for its KS, but that’s been delayed until after the Demon KS (see above).
– Deluxe Werewolf 20th Anniversary Edition: Regular Deluxe W20 and Screen is getting ready for shipping- see above. The Heavy Metal Deluxe W20 prototype was approved and they are slowly assembling and binding the books by hand. Mike Lee is submitting chapters of the W20 “Houses of the Moon” novel to Bill for dev review. Bill has the W20 Anthology stories in layout. Jess Hartley has submitted the White Howlers Tribe Book to Stew Wilson for development notes, and the W20 Cookbook is done in editing and back with Stew for review- just FYI: Stew is out at an almost 2 week long conference for his day job, so progress on all these items has been slowed.
– Deluxe Mage the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition has Phil is wrapping up the last sections of the book. Check out our continuing M20 art blog by Mirthful Mike Chaney: https://theonyxpath.com/mirthful-mikes-art-blog-mage-20th-anniversary-preview-3/
– W20 Changing Breeds Sent out the Kickstarter backer PDF in the month we estimated delivery, as well as links for the wallpapers and classic WtA PDFs. We will gather those comments and fixes once Stew gets back from his conference. The Changing Breeds Fiction Anthology is being contracted by developer Jess Hartley.
– W20 Rage Across the World: In layout. The PDF will go to Deluxe W20 backers first as an appreciative gift for their patience, and then up on DTRPG.
– Guildhalls of the Deathless (MtC) the PDF is live on DTRPG. The PoD files were not approved, so we fixed them and once again they are waiting for approval.
– Conventionbook: Void Engineers (cMtA) is available as a PDF on DTRPG, and like Guildhalls above, it has an errata thread on the forums- let us know if you find anything.
– W20 Book of the Wyrm is being art directed and is layout. Three names: Spencer, Ellis, Rebner.
– V20 Rites of the Blood: is in editing, art finals rolling in.
– Under the Darkening Sky (classic Dark Ages): In editing. Done being art directed.
– Trinity Continuum: We now have a whopping big Aeon outline and a Trinity Continuum Core Book outline and writers are writing. Systems discussions with the Scion devs have been loud and impassioned. There is now a spirit of cooperation and common ground moving towards system ideas being hammered out.
– Scion: Systems discussions with the Trinity devs have been hot and heavy. See above.
– Demon: The Descent: 2nd proof correx are in, and we’ll be submitting to CCP for approval as well as getting the files to an indexing expert. Demon Quickstart PDF is free on DTRPG and the PoD version is Now LIVE. The Demon: the Descent Kickstarter campaign needs one final OK and then we’ll be submitting to KS on Weds.
– Hunter: The Something About Monsters: Writers are writing. Because he was already done with his section, Matt McElroy asked David Hill to help with the development and help bring this book home.
– Book of the Deceived (MtC): First drafts are coming in to CAS, who is red-lining away.
– nWoD: Dark Eras: Writers are writing.
– V20 Dark Ages: Scribes are scribing. Check out the discussion on the WW Forums and these very blogs.
– DtD Players Guide: Flowers Of Hell?: Being written at the end of a corridor blocked by sliding metal doors.
Reason to Drink: Paperwork…
Indexing expert? What’s that?
An expert at indexing.
It takes a tremendous amount of work to index properly!
I think I missed a discussion. Is there a plan to make the Scion and Trinity Continuum rule systems compatible with each other?
First mentioned in updates months ago. Not so much making the rules compatible with each other as using the same base system for both (so we’re figuring out what that will be), and theoretically future OPP games. Making an in-house Onyx Path system, basically.
A new system sounds all kinds of exciting! Hoping for something fresh that we haven’t seen before! But, you know, not “uses only d12” kind of fresh. That’d be silly. A lot less painful than a d10 system if you accidentally step on the dice, though. Food for thought.
We’re still looking at a 10-sided dice pool system. I think that sort of base system can be gritty enough in one direction and open enough the other way that all sorts of gaming styles and preferences are served. But, you know, it’s still being worked on…
Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra could benefit from open dev. I’d like to know what you guys think could be salvaged from Dirty Secrets.
It’ll be on Open Dev; pretty certain about that.
I really hope so. As well as a needed book, it is also a risky book. The community and fans have through the year criticised it hard and given many suggestions on how to improve the sect. Taking in feedback from the fanbase would be essential to make this a success. I think I can speak for most of us when I say we just don’t want a regular update, we want the Tal to work better within the setting, and plot holes as well as the criticised silliness fixed. Eddy’s got a tough job in front of him.
I’m certain Eddy has a vision, and will get exactly the book he wants.
To be fair, it’s something Justin’s been very passionate about, and I’m following his thoughts on this one. One of the things we’ve talked about is making it more “agnostic” than previous book, such as ignoring elements of both the nuking of Enoch and the original Dirty Secrets to make it the faction as cool as possible instead of sticking doggedly to what was written before. But right now it’s just a pitch, and I haven’t had a chance to dig too deeply into the lore.
Unrelated: Daniel, I tried to email you back after you used my website to contact me, but I got critical errors from your Gmail account. Just wanted to let you know that I got your email, and that you didn’t cause any problems contacting me that way.
Thumbs up! Now I just need to figure out how to unnuke Enoch in my own world. 😉
Awesome TMR Book! I will say, remember the write up for Rodrigo the Lich in V20 Children of the Revolution. A follow up built on the plot hints dropped in that book would be awesome. That write-up takes into account the fall of enoch and collapse of the TMR, but also leads into Rodrigo restarting the sect under his leadership. That would be neat.
Also I love Justin’s ideas about the V20 TMR, now with way more Cuthulu themes!
Nice to know that 🙂
If Justin and/or I are involved with it, open dev is almost a certainty.
I was silly and younger and loved DSotBH. This puts me squarely in the minority. Mind you I’m a Wraith FanBoy so…you know….the shoes fit.
The idea of a Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra is the first thing I’ve heard for V20 that actually excites me (I tend to not get excited often, W20 was the first Tabletop RPG anything in the last 10 years to get me excited, and the announcement of Wraith20 has me positively giddy). I have faith that the team knows the type of product they want to make and will be true to the subject matter. The transition to OP has raised the content quality significantly and proves my belief that if you have the right people doing the right jobs, the creative types create awesome stuff.
I’ve also suddenly become interested in V20 Dark Ages…so…you know….kind of annoyed with that as my wallet is telling me I already intend to dump tons on the Wraith KS so I need to be sparring with other books.
Nice to see the schedule get updated on the site as well as all the spread sheet stuff you’ve been up to Ritch.
In a way I am kinda grateful that both Followers of Hell and Necropolis DC got pushed back till March. As it gives them plenty of time to really polish the books.
Do you reckon its likely that the Demon KS will be live by the end of the week?
Is red-lining part of the editing or writing process?
Since Deceived does not have a progress bar on the schedule I was wondering if it was on step 2 or 3 for the purposes of product progression. Is it safe to say that Deceived is going to be a January or February release rather then the originally planed December target?
KS approval has been about 5 days average. Had a 2 week approval once, and less than 16 hours once, which really scared me and I wasn’t ready to go. 🙂
Red-lining is when the Dev sends notes back to the writer- in this case on their first drafts.
I completely agree with your thoughts regarding Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. I came into the cWoD not too long after that book came out, and avoided it since everybody was constantly harping on how awful it was.
Then out of curiosity a few months ago I bought a used copy. And while yes, it had some real eye-rollers, I thought that many parts of it were fun and fascinating. Glad to hear we’ll get the chance to see what that material looks like under better management!
Nothing to do with management and everything to do with how early that book was in Vampire’s development, I think.
IMHO, its real sin was saying the Sabbat was not an invincible vampire utopia, and the revelations about Vicissitude, which were by its creator Steven Brown and fit with its Necroscope inspired origins.
I thought the tal got blasted with enoch getting the ghost nuke. Anyways, I would support this project. Carry on sirs. DSBH was one of those WOW books.
Thank you, sir, full speed ahead!
Scion and Aeon. So are they going to be using the same system?
See my reply to Michael above.
Interesting, the topic of nostalgia. I see parallels with what WOTC is doing with D&D Next (and some of the later 4th Ed releases) in addressing people’s feelings of nostalgia for the early days of D&D.
But as you mentioned, nostalgia is a funny thing, in that you mostly remember only the good times.
Anyway, looking forward to Demon the Descent. Maybe someday I’ll be nostalgic about Demon 😉
That might be more of a scramble for the old successes and sales numbers, but I’m not privy to Hasbro’s inside thinking.
I’ve only been using Kickstarter for about 18 months, but it’s quite odd to see how stagnant it’s been, considering the expansion of crowdfunding. They really should be offering in-house support for shipping addresses and add-ons by now. I’d normally assume it was impractical for some reason, but Backerkit offers those services for four different crowdfunding platforms, including Kickstarter, so it’s obviously possible. I was hoping there would be movement on that after their recent management change, but I haven’t heard anything concrete about their future plans.
In any case, I’m still looking forward to Ex3 getting finished and Demon getting Kickstarted. I’m also looking forward to seeing what happens with Scion. I only have the vaguest idea of what Trinity is and I have absolutely no idea what the Scion and Trinity devs would have to talk about.
I was hoping the same thing. They had a management change? I didn’t catch that-
It was just last week.
I too remain mystified by Kickstarter’s stagnation. That you have to *manually* hassle with address changes in this day and age seems like sheer madness.
Rich, have you thought about using something like Backerkit with the Onyx Path Kickstarters?
It made things a lot easier on the Kickstarters I’ve contributed to that used it. Of course, I don’t know how much of a cut they want to take. The added cost might not be worth while.
The cost is a factor, yes- but the real concern is the liability of entrusting the backer info to a third party. If I have to take the raw data from KS and remove emails and the like as I do for our current shippers, then not sure Backerkit is worth it. But I have a couple of friends using it and we’re talking. I’m certainly not against anything that makes my job easier!
Backerkit charges $300 + 1% of the take, so around $7150 in the case of the Exalted Kickstarter.
It is a damned pricey little service for something Kickstarter should be handling themselves.
“Without costing us twice what we were originally quoted over a year ago when I specced out the Deluxe W20 Kickstarter. Which would really wreck the whole “Stretch Goals get paid for out of the extra money” idea, and could make the whole KS campaign unprofitable. Which it really has to be if we want to keep on making all these great games and books.
So yes, shipping is that big of a danger to our well-being if it’s not really anticipated and then controlled. Which means I was staring at a lot of spreadsheets- I get one for each KS Reward Tier- and over 270 address changes that needed to be input manually. ”
I’ve seen this posted a few times now. It might be the coffee that I’m drinking, but this is certainly not being played as something that happened because of the backers, is it? Maybe because I’ve seen it come up so much, I’m taking it as such.
As far as I know, when the shipping prices were…ahem…priced, it was a year ago. You know, when the book was actually scheduled to ship. That’s not exactly the backers fault. If W20 wasn’t a year late, the shipping rates would’ve still been the same, and the KS would’ve been profitable.
Wha? In no way would the upping of shipping rates be the fault of the backers.
I figured that. It’s late. I’m tired. : ) regardless, I’m eagerly excited for W20 and can’t wait for more W20 material in the future. Very excited for the future of the company.
Fred Hicks recently wrote a really interesting article on international shipping for Kickstarters: http://www.deadlyfredly.com/2013/10/breakdown-international-shipping/
Bottom line is, even if the shipping costs don’t double by the time the Kickstarter is ready for shipping, both the international backers and the project creators are getting screwed, assuming you’re shipping from the US.
Fred’s article was both great and truthful. It really sucks because we have some absolutely wonderful and supportive fans all over the world and we have to really hike up their Reward Tier costs to make the shipping possible.
I don’t see him as blaming the backers for it – more just frustrated at the amount of work that has happened.
That said, I would be very interested to see a breakdown of where all the time for W20 went. I believe the guilding took quite some time, but how many months was it? How long for printing, how long for the cover treatments, etc?
Also, part of this is an issue with kickstarter – once the rewards are up, they cannot be changed. So if, for example, a stretch goal that changes the type of gilding is unlocked, they cannot update the rewards with a new ETD, AFAIK. I do think it would have been helpful to make it clear how much extra time it would have taken in the updates, though – I don’t recall Rich saying much about the fact that it would take longer because of the new gilding.
Also, a quick timeline based on backer updates:
Nov 1, ’12: Funded.
Dec 17, ’12: Second Layout Proof
Jan 8, ’13: In front of the CCP Approval Board
Jan 16, ’13: Passed CCP Approval, tweaked and sent to indexer.
Jan 22, ’13: Indexing
Feb 5, ’13: Indexing
Feb 25, ’13: Indexing done, being laid out.
Mar 6, ’13: PDFs sent out (~3 months late).
Mar 26, ’13: Files ready for Deluxe/HME printing
Apr 2, ’13: Re-check Printers quote.
Apr 10, ’13: Files at Printer
Apr 26, ’13: First round of proofs
May 3, ’13: Proofs returned with corrections.
Jun 26, ’13: Interiors printed, at Gilding.
Jul 12, ’13: Gilding complete
Aug 23, ’13: Attaching covers
Sep 16, ’13: Covers attached, laser cutting claw marks.
Oct 30, ’13: Laser cutting complete
So about 1.5 months for indexing, 2 weeks to recheck quotes / get files to printer, 3 weeks for proofing the interiors, 1.5 months for printing the interiors, 2 weeks for Gilding, 1.5 months doing nothing, 3 weeks for attaching covers, 1.5 months for laser cutting the claw marks, and now it’s finally shipping. The big hole is what was happening between the Jul 12, when the Gilding was complete, and Aug 23rd, when they started attaching covers (based purely on the backer updates – actual dates may differ).
Even so, it still appears to have taken a good four months to print somewhere in the region of 2K books. I get that there were a lot of different parties involved – plus a lot of shipping of proofs back and forth, but damn, that’s not quick.
I’m not upset, necessarily, but that’s because Rich has been keeping us constantly updated, and because things *are* moving, even if it’s not as quick as anyone would like. And also because I have a tablet so I can use the PDFs for gaming instead of the physical book. If this had happened even 5 years ago, I think I would be a lot more upset.
Even so, it still appears to have taken a good four months to print somewhere in the region of 2K books. I get that there were a lot of different parties involved – plus a lot of shipping of proofs back and forth, but damn, that’s not quick.
While some of this is obviously due to the deluxe nature of the print run, much of it is also just standard operating procedure for traditional print. Back in the trad print days it wasn’t really obvious how early we started the process and how long it took to actually make a print run, they just knew when the books arrived at their stores. Now that we’re more transparent and people have been “spoiled” with the relative ease of the PDF/PoD model, the traditional method seems overly slow and laborious.
I’d definitely agree that back in the day a lot of people just didn’t know HOW the sausages got made.
Now, it seems, some folks didn’t especially want to.
Very true- and that’s entirely fair, too. There are some DVDs where I go through all the interviews and extra features, and some where I just want to watch that movie and enjoy it as an encapsulated entertainment experience. Finding the right mix of transparency for those fans who want to see the inner workings and also contribute (which is the part we love) and the fans who really want a special surprise complete package for them to open and enjoy is something we’re working on. We learned with the V20 Companion that some folks really don’t want to know why something wasn’t included in the book- they feel cheated rather than informed.
So, full disclosure doesn’t seem to be the way, but going back to the “pop! a book appears on the store shelf” method of early WW simply isn’t feasible in the current marketplace either. Somewhere in there is the sweet spot. 🙂
Excited to see it. Interested in the Demon KS though I may just wait for POD and get the book as fast as inhumanly possible. Still, the super-deluxe books are nice!
Whatever method you choose to get your Demon taste sounds great to me. Thanks!
Got a group in wait for Demon the Decent any estimate when It will be available on pdf download? Should I tell them this month or next?
It’s still showing on our schedule page as a November release. We may yet have slippage, but that’s our current best estimate.
I really hope that the Tal book will discuss the diffrences between the Tal, Caines Chosen and the Sabbat. All three groups have at one point or the other been called the Black Hand, something i find very confusing and frustrating.
I tend to disagree. Caine’s Chosen made it pretty clear.
But yes, the topic should be elaborated on.
It’s actually one of the reasons why Justin and I have been using the name “Tal’Mahe’Ra” much more.
While I really appreciate that the W20 backers are getting a free pdf copy of Rage Across the World, is there any chance of a deluxe version of this book still being made? I would really like to see what could be done with this book as far as add-ons for stretch goals through a kickstarter and I’m a sucker for the deluxe books.
We’ll have to see community reaction, but right now it doesn’t seem likely. Part of this is simply that we can’t make a Deluxe for every book, and there are only 12 months in the year so only 12 Kickstarters are even possible as things stand with KS rules.
Sorry, didn’t mean to sound terse there. To elaborate: I have to make the call based on the available time and manpower as to which books we’re able to KS and it’s tough since, really, all of them are cool and deserve the hooplah a KS brings. First I look at books that are leading a line- core books- and then once those are scheduled, what other books can fit in which have a good chance to have something unique in their KS campaign. It was a lot easier before we had multiple cWoD lines on top of the nWoD ones, too.
To be quite honest, even if there’s just some way to “order” the Deluxe Edition without a KickStarter, I’d buy one. I don’t need the add-ons (though, I’ll miss the tiers for adding content.)
Maybe there’s another way/site that can “hold” money in escrow and return it/refund it if you “fall through” (if not enough people put in orders)? Place a 1-month time-frame on taking orders and then complete the transactions and that’s it? I mean, there’s gotta be a way, you know?
The only difference between this method and the KS would be the “feedback” folks get during a campaign. Otherwise everything on your end would be simplified… as long as the minimum number was met.
Okay. I just have to drop in on this. I didn’t say anything because i didn’t want to seem ungrateful for the pdf, but if you need our feedback to know if we want a kickstarter for Rage across the world then I will. Yes. I would pledge the hell out of that book. Based on CB20’s new content that was only made possible due to KS I can only hope it gets one.
That said. If it comes down to a choice between RAtW if BotW, then I think the line would profit more from a BotW kickstarter.
Not to pry of push. Just giving my honest opinion.
Reading this again, I sound antagonistic. Which is really not the case here. I wish we could edit our posts…
I just meant to show support for a KS of RatW. Which doesn’t mean I not happy about the PDFs. Totally different things.
NP. I knew that there would be some folks wishing it could still get the Deluxe treatment. Can’t do all of them that way- there just aren’t enough months in the year. And we’re not exactly nailing our estimates on delivery yet with the projects and KSs we already have in progress. So, time to make a few hard calls and gets things moving again.
Yeah. That makes sense. Besides, I think we have a lot of good stuff coming out way on the W:tA side of things. It would be difficult to complain. 🙂
Y- you need to leave the internet right now. You clearly do not have the right attitude!
Hahaha! You’re right. I’ll go drink some negativity and come right back. What was I thinking? :p
@ Rich, I understand, lots to do and only so much time to do it all. You’re right about core books really deserving of the opportunity of a deluxe version, chances are those will benefit the most from what a kickstarter can do for them.
I do like Torakhan’s idea though, it might not be as exciting as a kickstarter, but if it adds another deluxe edition book to my library I would be good with it.
Mechanisms and processes we would need to create, though. KS and other crowd-funding sites are excellent for our business model exactly because we don’t have to create all that infrastructure. Not saying it would be impossible to do, someday, but I’d have to shift a lot of resources around that need to focus on great projects right now.
If it’s a choice between a lot of new stuff with a few deluxe items or just a few books all being deluxe. I’ll go with the first option, and who knows what will happen in the future as far as making things easier for setting up books for getting the deluxe treatment.
If there was just some site that would take money in escrow for you (until you collected it at a given date when enough was acquired, or returned it if enough wasn’t gained), then would it really be any different than a KS as far as the funding went?
While it wouldn’t draw the hype of a ongoing KS fundraising, it wouldn’t take nearly the manpower either.
Anyways, it’s just a thought. RAtW is a small book (120 pages, or so?), and having the V20 Companion, it’d have been nice for a “complete set” of Deluxe books, but if I had to skip one from being Deluxe, I suppose this one would be it. 🙂
One thing I WILL miss from the lack of a KS for it is the involvement from the fans in helping mold and add to it with information we would have liked to have seen, and maybe other add-ons (A book of Glyphs? Glyphs for Ranks? More on Technology and Fetishes, etc. that may not already be in the book.) I still think back to how fans helped create a better V20 Companion book, but then again V20 has had more “Open Development” cooperation between fans and writing (I think), so maybe it wouldn’t have happened anyways.
I really like the mockup pic of the Demon book, looks like its going to be a big book. Cant wait to see the options when the KS launches.
400+ pages.
I thought it would only be 320, now I’m super excited! Hopefully there will be some chronicle ideas thrown in there. Was there any concern with the God Machine taking center stage in 2 wod lines? Is there such a thing as too much God Machine?
Spencer, Ellis, Rebner? AWESOME! Spencer hasn’t been doing his Full Moon postings in a while, so you must have him pretty busy. 🙂
We’ve been playing a bi-weekly V20 game since just after the book came out. Our GM revealed a few months back that his *actual* goal with the game had been to see if he could do something awesome with all the “worst” bits of Masquerade – the True Black Hand, etc. He’s succeeding!
Our standing conclusion, both from play experience and from going back and rereading, has been that “community opinion” tends to overemphasize the bad stuff and ignore the good. A lot of oWoD material is way better than anyone gave it credit for. (The metaplot less intrusive, the mechanics more coherent, etc) And even the bad bits are more often “someone tried something different and it just didn’t work” bad.
Very cool. And yes, the “truth” of a book is often more repeated than actually looked into. People being people.
If you guys still want book ideas:
– Not of man born
A book about what it means to be born an animal in the CWoD. Two main ideas:
1 – Bridge the real world wilderness and the WOD wilderness. Essentially, a book of the city, in the wilds. Book of the Wyld helped a lot in this direction, but I think we can go deeper into how different wilderness is and what it means to live in it. Not only as an animal born, but also as a Garou or Fera sept. It is often said that forests are different, that they are more mysterious, more magical. It’s also said that animals are at home in there, and that’s part of why they have such a high gnosis score. Combining them, you end up with animals that are bound to be different too. Leaving us, animal born enthousiasts with a lot of real world lore on, say, Lions, that is hard to interpret for a Bastet campaign.
2 – The animals themselves. Not just wolves, but Tigers, and Crocodiles, and Coyotes and Spiders, and snakes… there’s a lot to know on those creatures and the internet is surprisingly not all that useful when you’re trying to figure out the healing time of a normal spider (I never did find out). Point in check, I’m currently running a Changing Breed game on a forum. All four of my players are animal born from different breeds. We’re having a real blast, but the Simba player and I are having a difficult time picturing the normal daily life of a Lioness before her first change.
Sure, it’s probably a niche book. I know. I know. But, I would sure love to see it happen 🙂
I think rather than one section on the Feral breeds, a series or just one book focusing on each breed would be good. While certainly we have had tries, Ways if the Wolf out outdated (no alpha or omega in the wild) and Guardians of the Caerns’ metis section needed a bit less IC ranting.
Also, the fact that non-garou feral breeds are more capable than lupus ever will on the get-go addressed or eliminated.
Ideally, yes, I’d love a series or a full book on that subject alone to no end. But, I figured both themes go hand in hand to help get a clear picture of life in a desert or a river. I also think that the first section would widen the appeal of the book to a bigger audience.
There was also Bygone Bestiary from Mage: The Sorcerers Crusade/World of Darkness, which had a whole section on animals and was about roleplaying mythical animals/creatures (even creating your own).
Would love to see a update of that type of book or something similar to it combined with your “Not of Man born” idea. As Bygone Bestiary was restricted to the historical area and location it was in. It would be cool to see a NWOD version of that too.
Agreed. That’s an extremely valid point. It would clearly blend in well. I should have mentioned that book side by side with Book of the Wyld.
Please keep the Souleaters!
Clan Tzimisce forever!
gah, shipping woes! make it work, captain, we need you guys to stay afloat!
Damn straight- I want to still be making games 20 years from now.
If the real Demon book looks like that then I am absolutely buying the Prestige Edition. I’m excited about the forum change over and this log jam beginning to clear up. So many great products are about to come down the lane I’m gonna have to start more gaming groups to play everything.
Well, we can’t show you the way we expect the emboss and deboss to work on the cover- you sort of have to feel it. But otherwise, it’s pretty close.
Dear Sir,
Do you intend to relelase some old or even new chronicles or campaign books ? Not everyone has the time to invent or write his own Adventures nowadays. Work consumes so much time that I sometimes prefer the prewritten stuff. For nostalgic reason I would love to return to the WoD but the lack of playable-out-of-the-box things is keeping me away.
We have an extensive collection of adventures available. See the Storytelling Adventure System category on DriveThruRPG.
Looking forward to the Demon KS – after running through the quickstart with my Wednesday night group they are already sold on the game and want me to start running the game as soon as the PDF becomes available !
(I think the only other WoD game I ever had that enthusiastic a response for after running the quickstart was [surprisingly] Geist the Sin Eaters)…
Great to hear. I made some last minute tweaks to the KS, so we’re cycling through comments from the gang, but it should go off to KS for approval today.
I thought it went out for approval already?
Which is why I mentioned that it hadn’t yet.
yeah i just saw that. apologies! just super psyched for the KS… plus prestige edition?! sounds awesome!
And the Demon KS is in Kickstarter’s hands right now.
V20 Comes out? Check, and it’s awesome.
V20: Anarch Guide in the works? Check, I’ve loved the open dev stuff.
V20: Tal’Mahe’Ra Guide? Pitched. Eddy’s got me on board with his mindset too.
So, here’s the real question guys, where’s my V20 Guide to the Sabbat? How’s a guy supposed to Praise Caine in shiny new V20 style? Hmmm?
😉
I’d like to see more information on the Inconnu sometime as well.
Are you sure? Don’t you want there to be some mysteries we never delve into in books?
I almost think that’s the stylistic distinction between the *20 WoD and the nWoD.
The old setting has had… well, DECADES of writers filling it in. It has well-defined gribblies and even had fairly comprehensive supplements that tied up the major metaplot and gave you advice on winding the world itself down.
The new(er, at this point) setting isn’t quite so certain. It’s designed NOT to be so certain. It has multiple, often contradictory theories on most of its metaphysics. It’s not counting down to anything UNLESS the ST wants to run that sort of story.
I think there’s people who like each style. I think there are times when I can enjoy either. Vive la difference!
As a player. Sure. As an ST I want to have at least some strongly plausible theories.
+1
Frankly, no supplement is necessary if your ST wants to use the book as a guideline and uses the book as “inspiration” rather than a “defined cosmic rule book.” 90% of our games are most certainly “non-canon” with werewolves in space, modified rules, and whatnot that fit the ST’s unique style and vision for his game/story.
However, the CWoD is such a unique and interesting setting that I suspect a lot of folks buy and read the books as if they were ongoing serial novels. Each supplement is a new book to read, with new characters and new mechanisms that fill out the corners of the world.
If you write a book and you introduce an antagonist, or mystery person, be prepared for the reader to want to know more about that mystery person.
If J. K. Rowling writes about “a small round stone” that a character is holding, the fan base will harp on her at cons and the internet to find out “what was that stone the character was carrying?” Did we need to know that Albus Dumbledore was gay? Nope. But did it matter, or complete the character for others, or add to the mythos, or context of the story? Absolutely.
As players, we may never interact with the hidden corners of the WoD, but as FANS and invested patrons of the games, we want to know all that we can. LEARNING about the canon world of the CWoD (or any other game of its like) is part of the joy and pleasure we find.
So, yes, bring on the secrets of the CWoD. Players who want the canon answers can revel and enjoy in discovering the truths/facts of the setting, while those who don’t care, or know that their STs won’t use that info, don’t have to.
I hope that helps explain from a “completest” point of view. 🙂
(And, besides… I love to know what makes a clock tick… gimme all your secrets! The Eyes of Gaia would like to see all the secret things…)
@Torakhan: Very well said.
It’s been years since my group has managed to get together. Work, marriage, divorce, kids, people moving, and life in general has made it almost impossible for us to get everyone together on a regular basis. I still buy the cWoD books though, I love reading through them and I frequently flip through an older book I’ve already just to reread a particularly interesting part.
Having them in deluxe edition just makes them look cooler sitting in my book shelf when I’m not reading through them. 🙂
Very true. That is indeed an important reason why I buy and read these books. I mean, I buy books in gamelines I don’t even ever intend to play.
“Don’t you want there to be some mysteries we never delve into in books?”
As a Player? Yes, it means it will always have *something* I don’t know.
As a reader/fan? No, I want to know all the things and I’ve read more than one supplement out of enjoying the story that’s being told more so than wanting/needing the mechanics.
I recently picked up “The Ashen Knight” and “The Ashen Thief” at the used book store not because I’ll ever get to tell a story that uses their contents, but because it let me read more into the WoD as a whole.
Is their any chance of Victorian Age being revisited. It had so much potential for all of the cWoD lines, I’d love to see it get updated, in all of your spare time that is.
+1
There’s a lot of love for the Victorian Age here at Onyx Path- just don’t know what we’ll do with it. Yet.
No rush, just throwing out suggestions.